Suitcase city shanking

[Chase Star]

The folks who have died from COVID after the vaccine all assumed they were safe.

I'm sure most of them did, but safe is a relative term. The vaccine was never promised to be absolutely 100% effective. Administer a vaccine that is 99.99% effective at preventing deaths to 180 M people and you're still going to get a few thousand deaths. That's still more than 100 times better than the over SIX HUNDRED THOUSAND who died without the vaccine.

There is always a risk

Again, that's true. But does that mean one shouldn't at least try to minimize or mitigate risk even if one can't eliminate it completely? Or that, even if there's still some risk from whatever course of action one takes, that course of action (or in this case inaction) carries the same level of risk as another? Of course not.

...and one can easily get COVID from a vaccinated person as an unvaccinated person.

One certainly can get covid from a vaccinated person but exactly how easily and under what circumstances and whether that is as easily as it spreads from unvaccinated people are still open scientific questions. However you don't need to be a scientist to see that (at least up until the spread of the delta variant and even to a degree since) lower transmission rates have correlated with areas with higher vaccination rates. That certainly strongly suggests that there's also at least some benefit to vaccinations for lowering transmission of covid (on top of the other more obvious benefits of lower hospitalizations and deaths).

Stating Polio and MMR is slightly incorrect. Those caused upwards of 30% mortality rates. Paralysis, disfigurement, etc were common effects.

I think you're more than slightly incorrect there or else are completely confused and misunderstood what I was saying. That 30% mortality figure (15-30% actually) is the mortality rate for adolescents and adults getting the DISEASE (and 2-5% for children getting the disease) NOT the rate for those getting the VACCINE (which is the issue we're discussing here). And those other common side effects (paralysis & disfigurement) resulted from the disease itself (before the vaccine became widely available) and only rarely for those getting the vaccine. Oral polio vaccines themselves cause only about 3 cases of paralytic polio per million doses given (and even fewer cases leading to death). AND, more to the point I was trying to make, those negative side effects of that vaccine occur within weeks of getting that dose and are not an outcome to be feared years later.

Unless something has changed lately, Covid has non of those severe issues. IT also has a 2% mortality rate, per CDC.

Again, you're completely confused and failing in your logic. No one here was trying to compare the seriousness of polio vs. Covid. I only mentioned the polio vaccine as an example of how any side effects from vaccines occur within a month or 2 of receiving the dose and examples of previously unknown negative side effects for those receiving the vaccine not appearing until year or more later are virtually nonexistent if that ever happens at all.

But let's talk just about covid. Yes, the mortality rate for covid may just be 2% for the general population, but the rate is actually much higher for some segments of our population who can't get the shot. Its also, as remote as that might seem to you, still high enough that I wouldn't want to get it. That's 1 out of every 50 (unvaccinated) people who get it dying compared to just 1 per 1000 who die from the regular flu and maybe 1-2 out of every 100000 who get the covid vaccine.

And that's just considering mortality. Okay, probably you won't die from it. Do you even want to go through the pain and expense of becoming hospitalized or even just stuck at home gasping for breath or become one of the many "long-haulers" whose symptoms persist for months or possibly even years after getting covid?

And looking at the 600 K American rates, let's not forget that at the start, the numbers were inflated as MEs and our wonderful politicos, all claimed anyone that died with the virus, died from the virus, even when the death was something else. Many American had underlying conditions. All the folks I've known (either personally, or a family member of a friend / coworker) except one, have had other severe issues. We can still say 600 K, but the reality is that actual COVID is probably less.

Many Americans do have underlying conditions, but would they have died from those underlying conditions this year or even some time in the next few years if it weren't for their getting covid. You say the death figures have been overstated by somehow politically biased ME's who were slapping the covid label on any death they saw. I say that maybe the exact opposite has happened. Our own Gov. DeSantis retaliated against a whistleblower who revealed his administration was deliberately cooking the books to UNDERSTATE the deathrate. BTW, I've also known some folks who died last year too (an aunt and uncle) and their cause of death was listed as heart failure even though their heart failures occurred within a few short weeks after contracting covid. Just a coincidence?

Who is really politically biased in how they choose to spin this, the ME's who come from both parties, are professionals with no axe to grind, our wonderful Governor, me or maybe you? One way you can more objectively estimate the amount of deaths due to covid is to compare the total number of deaths that occurred in the US over the last year with the number of deaths that occurred over a similar time period pre-pandemic. If nothing else has changed other than there being a new virus running around, then any increase in the death rate is most likely attributable to the pandemic. And if you look at that the increase in the deaths is actually much more even than the 640 k official death count. So much so that the average life expectancy actually went down significantly over the past year.

Either way, I'll take my chances. I've been good so far with all my precautions.

That's funny, because that's the sort of thing all the other unvaccinated people were saying before they weren't so good and had to be admiited to the hospital. Many if not most of them then pleaded for the vaccine but, of course, by that point it had become too late. Many of them, who had refused to get the "experimental" vaccine, also pleaded for the experimental monoclonal antibody treatment. The irony there is rich.

Last point, you may choose to take your chances, but what gives you the right to put others at risk. That's like saying "I have the right to drive 100 mph into oncoming traffic, I'll take my chances because I've been good so far and haven't hit anyone yet". Okay that's obvious hyperbole but if you fail to get a vaccination that is readily available to you (or at least mask up), maybe you won't get seriously sick (or crash into anyone, just make THEM veer off the road), but you're putting others, including those who don't have the choice of whether to get vaccinated or not (e.g. children under 12, immune compromised individuals, etc.). And let's be clear, if you choose not to be vaccinated or can't, the CDC has been recommending that any of those people wear a mask in enclosed public spaces, but because of our Governor, that's impossible to enforce and I'm sure most of the unvaccinated are among the exact same group as those who also refuse to wear masks. Unvaccinated people don't appreciate being shamed or lectured to. Well vaccinated people don't appreciate having to put on their masks again, even though they feel they've already done their part to try to achieve that herd immunity, because of the failure of others to get vaccinated and reduce community spread.

[Nflfan]

98 percent of the hospitalize COVID patients are non vaccinated. What's wrong with these people? Every pharmacy, Walmart, Publix, Sam's club, Costco offer them for free-there is no line to get one. Half the icu's are full of COVID patients that are just non compliant people that come up with some conspiracy theory. The want free rent, free money from the government. Refuse to go to work even though the health care workers and first responders have to go and take care of these people. To me that's just irresponsible for themselves and others. Most of all this could be preventable by a simple shot for free. I feel sorry for the ones that got vaccinated and immune suppressed, and kids- everyone's had over a year to get vaccinated. Just idiots overwhelmingly overloading our health care system.

The store paid me in free groceries to receive the no-cost vax there.

[JosefK]

The folks who have died from COVID after the vaccine all assumed they were safe. There is always a risk, and one can easily get COVID from a vaccinated person as an unvaccinated person.

Stating Polio and MMR is slightly incorrect. Those caused upwards of 30% mortality rates. Paralysis, disfigurement, etc were common effects. Unless something has changed lately, Covid has non of those severe issues. IT also has a 2% mortality rate, per CDC.

And looking at the 600 K American rates, let's not forget that at the start, the numbers were inflated as MEs and our wonderful politicos, all claimed anyone that died with the virus, died from the virus, even when the death was something else. Many American had underlying conditions. All the folks I've known (either personally, or a family member of a friend / coworker) except one, have had other severe issues. We can still say 600 K, but the reality is that actual COVID is probably less.

Either way, I'll take my chances. I've been good so far with all my precautions.

Actually there's an interesting book written by the guy who came up with the first successful polio vaccine. He wrote a book called The Survival of the Wisest. You can't find the book anymore. It was about 60 bucks or so until cvid hit and then went up to like 900 and now is gone. Your only bet now in discovering what it was about (unless you can possibly find it in a library) is reading the amazon reviews. Here's the link for anyone interested, as I've said the book has completely disappeared now. I wonder why?

https://www.amazon.com/Survival-Wise...words=survival+of+the+wisest&qid=1628293923&sr=8-3.

Just found a short and longer summary on youtube also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0yXCEanZww

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1C8haClASQI

[Smitty Qbert]

"Clot shot"? Really? I hadn't heard that term and had to look that one up. It seems that someone here has been following the disinformation on Faux News and Fakebook a little too closely.

Here are the REAL facts. There has been ZERO indication of increased risk of TTS (blood clots) from either the Moderna or Pfizer vaccines that most of us have gotten in the US. There is some indication of increased risk for those taking the J&J vaccine but even that is on the order of just 0. 0002%. As of the end of April (around the time that the CDC, out of an overabundance of caution, put a temporary pause on that vaccine), that amounted to a whooping 15 cases out of 8 million J&J doses administered. I believe that all, or at worst nearly all, of those 15 were in women between the ages of 18-59. I don't know about TTY954, but I don't fall into that demographic, but if I did and was worried about blood clots it'd be a simple matter to just get the Pfizer or Moderna shots instead. Oh yeah, and out of those 15 only 3 of the women died from it. The rest were able to get supplementary treatment that cleared it up.

Let's put that into some perspective. Risk of clots from Moderna or Pfizer essentially zero. Risk for J&J for men essentially zero. Overall risk for J&J, less than 2 in a million. That's less than the risk of getting struck by lightning here in the Tampa Bay area (I guess those idiots who refuse to get the so-called "clot shot" must also cower in fear whenever there's a storm). Meanwhile, there has been 35.6M cases of covid in the US. That's nearly 1 in TEN people, not million, ie around 100,000 times more likely. About 1 in 6 of those have been severe enough to cause difficulty breathing. The current rate of covid cases requiring hospitalization in Florida is on the order of 200 per million and rising rapidly as the much more contagious delta variant continues to spread. That's more than 100 times the risk of getting blood clots (most of which are treatable without hospitalization) and many times even more than that unless you're a woman of child-bearing age.

Everyone has their own level of risk tolerance. Some people fear taking risks that others take in stride. And that's perfectly their right and all well and good. But it makes absolutely no sense to fear something that's extremely unlikely (and in most cases inconsequential even if it does occur) while at the very same time completely disregarding a much much greater risk that can easily be avoided..

The folks who have died from COVID after the vaccine all assumed they were safe. There is always a risk, and one can easily get COVID from a vaccinated person as an unvaccinated person.

Stating Polio and MMR is slightly incorrect. Those caused upwards of 30% mortality rates. Paralysis, disfigurement, etc were common effects. Unless something has changed lately, Covid has non of those severe issues. IT also has a 2% mortality rate, per CDC.

And looking at the 600 K American rates, let's not forget that at the start, the numbers were inflated as MEs and our wonderful politicos, all claimed anyone that died with the virus, died from the virus, even when the death was something else. Many American had underlying conditions. All the folks I've known (either personally, or a family member of a friend / coworker) except one, have had other severe issues. We can still say 600 K, but the reality is that actual COVID is probably less.

Either way, I'll take my chances. I've been good so far with all my precautions.

[Chase Star]

.... As much as one can say its safe, and I'm sure its fairly safe, there are still some questions that can't be answered in under a yr of the vaccine....

First off, you quoted me but let me make it quite clear that I wasn't the one suggesting non-vaccinated should be left to die in ER parking lots, nor posted any "moronic deathwish" towards anyone. I only excused that sort of comment as hyperbole but suggested that, if our hospital beds continue to fill up to the point that some patients can no longer get the care they need, it will mostly be the fault of those who don't take basic precautions (by that I mean not taking a few minutes to get a simple shot or at least masking up in public if they choose not to get it). Yes there are other "self-inflicted" reasons people get hospitalized but those aren't what's suddenly causing our ER's and hospital beds to get filled to capacity.

Now, your concern about the possible long-term (and currently unknown) side effects of the vaccines is arguably the most sensible argument for not getting the vaccine. After all, the various covid vaccines have yet to be FULLY FDA approved (beyond EUA). But even on that point I'd argue that reason doesn't have much merit.

History tells us that severe side effects for vaccines are extremely rare, and if they do occur, happen within the first two months of getting any vaccine. This was true, so far, with the most recent vaccines. In the case of the J&J vaccine, all the cases of blood clots emerged with 2 weeks of getting the vaccine and the safety protocols worked as they should. Vaccinations were promptly paused until those rare cases could be investigated and subsequently cleared. But any vaccine side effects only happening within a couple of months of vaccination has been the case with all vaccines going all the way back to the oral polio vaccine, which is no longer used. In that case, the oral vaccine caused paralysis in 1 in 2. 4 M people within less than a month of receiving that dose. Vaccines in general have been proven to be very safe. Furthermore, the mRNA technology that was used in the Noderna and Pfizer vaccines, has been studied for decades and has also been used for diseases such as influenza, Zika and rabies with zero negative side effects beyond the minor and immediate allergic reactions in some cases.

Lastly, at least concerning side effects, the way the EUA process works is they assess the risks vs. Benefits based upon limited clinical trials. In this case it was determined the benefits (not getting and possibly dying from covid) vastly outweighed the possible risks (rare cases of blood clots or some other as of that time unknown effect occurring). Since EUA, over 100's of millions of doses have been administered (far far more than most other vaccines have when they get full FDA approval) with virtually zero negative side effects (so far) and obvious and substantial benefits (98% of covid deaths are among the unvaccinated). These vaccines have yet to get full FDA approval because of the way the bureaucratic process works but few doubt they will eventually get full approval.

[Ajdal]

Well, I sure did start some lively discussions. Anyway my point was that as so many of you have reiterated much more eloquently than I was why should we put vulnerable people at risk unnecessarily. All you've got to do is get a shot and always wear a mask if around any other people. And if you've had the shot (s) you can still transmit the virus and infect other people so wearing a mask makes sense. . This ain't rocket science. Hell if they had locked everything down for 90 days (?) and masked up when this started maybe we wouldn't be having this discussion. Thanks everybody. P.S. I do have immuno-suppressed family members who can't get the vaccine and are at extreme risk if they catch this fwiw. Ajdal out.

[Chase Star]

I'm done with the mask nonsense and never getting the clot shot.

"Clot shot"? Really? I hadn't heard that term and had to look that one up. It seems that someone here has been following the disinformation on Faux News and Fakebook a little too closely.

Here are the REAL facts. There has been ZERO indication of increased risk of TTS (blood clots) from either the Moderna or Pfizer vaccines that most of us have gotten in the US. There is some indication of increased risk for those taking the J&J vaccine but even that is on the order of just 0. 0002%. As of the end of April (around the time that the CDC, out of an overabundance of caution, put a temporary pause on that vaccine), that amounted to a whooping 15 cases out of 8 million J&J doses administered. I believe that all, or at worst nearly all, of those 15 were in women between the ages of 18-59. I don't know about TTY954, but I don't fall into that demographic, but if I did and was worried about blood clots it'd be a simple matter to just get the Pfizer or Moderna shots instead. Oh yeah, and out of those 15 only 3 of the women died from it. The rest were able to get supplementary treatment that cleared it up.

Let's put that into some perspective. Risk of clots from Moderna or Pfizer essentially zero. Risk for J&J for men essentially zero. Overall risk for J&J, less than 2 in a million. That's less than the risk of getting struck by lightning here in the Tampa Bay area (I guess those idiots who refuse to get the so-called "clot shot" must also cower in fear whenever there's a storm). Meanwhile, there has been 35.6M cases of covid in the US. That's nearly 1 in TEN people, not million, ie around 100,000 times more likely. About 1 in 6 of those have been severe enough to cause difficulty breathing. The current rate of covid cases requiring hospitalization in Florida is on the order of 200 per million and rising rapidly as the much more contagious delta variant continues to spread. That's more than 100 times the risk of getting blood clots (most of which are treatable without hospitalization) and many times even more than that unless you're a woman of child-bearing age.

Everyone has their own level of risk tolerance. Some people fear taking risks that others take in stride. And that's perfectly their right and all well and good. But it makes absolutely no sense to fear something that's extremely unlikely (and in most cases inconsequential even if it does occur) while at the very same time completely disregarding a much much greater risk that can easily be avoided.

What's more, it is NOT (or at least should not be) their right to, through their actions or inactions, put their fellow citizens at risk. That's why we have long had public health and safety rules like, I dunno, not driving drunk, not smoking on planes or other enclosed public areas, getting your child vaccinated against diseases like polio or MMR before attending public school, etc. Very few people ever question any of those common sense measures, but for some reason the issue of masking and covid vaccinations to deal with a disease that has killed over 600k Americans and is now our 3rd leading cause of death has become politicized by a significant minority (mostly on one side of the political spectrum).

[TTY954]

I'm done with the mask nonsense and never getting the clot shot.

[MadMax67]

Give us a break. PaulHamnet wasn't exaggerating but Ajdal clearly was by his own admission (aka "Rant"). His basic point was still valid. Its pretty fucked up that our ER's and hospital beds are being filled to capacity by people who wouldn't need to be there if they had just gotten a simple shot like so many of their fellow citizens. After all, you can hardly equate asking someone to give up life-long habits like drinking, smoking, overeating or afflictions with a physical basis like addictions or clinical depression leading to attempted suicide with the truly onerous task of taking a whole 15 minutes to an hour out of one day to get a shot.

Okay, maybe these vaccine deniers should be treated just like so many suicidal, obese, drunk drivers. But who should get treated 1st? The drunk driver who gets into an accident or the completely innocent family in the other car he plows into? The chain smoker who gets lung cancer or all the people around who also get sick from inhaling his second-hand smoke? The critically ill covid patient who could have easily gotten the vaccine but didn't or the child under 12, immunocompromised due to other chronic conditions and those who can't get vaccines due to anaphylactic reactions to vaccines but get covid from the former?

There's a world of difference between those who have a heart attack or develop diabetes or some other weight related disease as a result of their overeating (or glandular problems), drunks who get cirrhosis, depressed people who attempt suicide, each of whom hurt basically only themselves and those who choose to not only put themselves at risk but also everyone else with whom they come into contact.

The rant was about beds being full and people with other ail. Ents needing them. Now your ranting about people spreading covid because they aren't vaccinated. Two different scenarios. Well if your vaccinated then you shouldn't have to worry about getting it but they now seems not to be true so who do you listen to. BTW I'm 61 and never got a flu shot.

That seems to be a lifelong habit.

[Smitty Qbert]

Give us a break. PaulHamnet wasn't exaggerating but Ajdal clearly was by his own admission (aka "Rant"). His basic point was still valid. Its pretty fucked up that our ER's and hospital beds are being filled to capacity by people who wouldn't need to be there if they had just gotten a simple shot like so many of their fellow citizens. After all, you can hardly equate asking someone to give up life-long habits like drinking, smoking, overeating or afflictions with a physical basis like addictions or clinical depression leading to attempted suicide with the truly onerous task of taking a whole 15 minutes to an hour out of one day to get a shot.

Okay, maybe these vaccine deniers should be treated just like so many suicidal, obese, drunk drivers. But who should get treated 1st? The drunk driver who gets into an accident or the completely innocent family in the other car he plows into? The chain smoker who gets lung cancer or all the people around who also get sick from inhaling his second-hand smoke? The critically ill covid patient who could have easily gotten the vaccine but didn't or the child under 12, immunocompromised due to other chronic conditions and those who can't get vaccines due to anaphylactic reactions to vaccines but get covid from the former?

There's a world of difference between those who have a heart attack or develop diabetes or some other weight related disease as a result of their overeating (or glandular problems), drunks who get cirrhosis, depressed people who attempt suicide, each of whom hurt basically only themselves and those who choose to not only put themselves at risk but also everyone else with whom they come into contact.

Its a shame we've devolved in this forum to now ripping on vaxxed and unvaxxed.

As much as one can say its safe, and I'm sure its fairly safe, there are still some questions that can't be answered in under a yr of the vaccine. Vaccinated folks who had died, I'm sure thought they were in the clear. Personally, we've had family and friends (who had direct family members) have health issues after the vaccine, that they hadn't had before. Coworker had family member die from COVID even after the vaccine. A member of my family had heart issues, and this person was perfectly healthy in their 30's.

If you want to take it, fine. Go for it, thanks.

If I, or anyone else don't want to take it, fine, don't.

Vaxxed people are now making it into a fight and campaign to shame / harrass / belittle those without. From requiring passports to get around, go into businesses, etc. That's just wrong. Want me to wear a mask, fine. I have no issues. However, I probably take WAY more precautions than most other folks vaccinated or not. We've been in direct contact on numerous instances with COVID positive folks, and never got it. Studies have shown that virus levels of vaccinated people are just as high as vaccinated, so for all you know, vaccinated people are giving it to the unvaxxed. Mask up bro, don't you want to protect US?

And its not like unvaccinated are going around licking everything or spitting at people to get / give it. Cmon.

Wishing ANYONE death or malice from this is moronic. This nation, nor any, will EVER get 100% vaccination. There are folks who haven't gotten polio or smallpox vaccines, and those have killed up to 30%ish back in the day. I'll take my chances without, but I will respect you out and about. I'm not adverse to the shot, just want more long term data on it. 7-8 months isn't enough. So please, knock off the hate for those that choose, for whatever reasons, to not get it.

Enjoy your day, and happy hunting.

[LuckyToo]

Someone who really needs an ER can't get in because of unvaccinated people. Seriously? What the hell is wrong with some people? I wish they'd just leave the unvaccinated by their choice in the hospital parking lot. Just get them out of the gene pool if they contract covid. . Rant Over AJDAL out

98 percent of the hospitalize COVID patients are non vaccinated. What's wrong with these people? Every pharmacy, Walmart, Publix, Sam's club, Costco offer them for free-there is no line to get one. Half the icu's are full of COVID patients that are just non compliant people that come up with some conspiracy theory. The want free rent, free money from the government. Refuse to go to work even though the health care workers and first responders have to go and take care of these people. To me that's just irresponsible for themselves and others. Most of all this could be preventable by a simple shot for free. I feel sorry for the ones that got vaccinated and immune suppressed, and kids- everyone's had over a year to get vaccinated. Just idiots overwhelmingly overloading our health care system.

[Chase Star]

So all cigarette smokers, all people who try and commit suicide, drunk and wreckless driver who get in accidents, drug addicts, self inflicted obese people, alcoholics and anyone who do things that cause themselves to be in bad health or have wreckless behaviour to become injured should be left in the hospital parking lot.

Give us a break. PaulHamnet wasn't exaggerating but Ajdal clearly was by his own admission (aka "Rant"). His basic point was still valid. Its pretty fucked up that our ER's and hospital beds are being filled to capacity by people who wouldn't need to be there if they had just gotten a simple shot like so many of their fellow citizens. After all, you can hardly equate asking someone to give up life-long habits like drinking, smoking, overeating or afflictions with a physical basis like addictions or clinical depression leading to attempted suicide with the truly onerous task of taking a whole 15 minutes to an hour out of one day to get a shot.

Okay, maybe these vaccine deniers should be treated just like so many suicidal, obese, drunk drivers. But who should get treated 1st? The drunk driver who gets into an accident or the completely innocent family in the other car he plows into? The chain smoker who gets lung cancer or all the people around who also get sick from inhaling his second-hand smoke? The critically ill covid patient who could have easily gotten the vaccine but didn't or the child under 12, immunocompromised due to other chronic conditions and those who can't get vaccines due to anaphylactic reactions to vaccines but get covid from the former?

There's a world of difference between those who have a heart attack or develop diabetes or some other weight related disease as a result of their overeating (or glandular problems), drunks who get cirrhosis, depressed people who attempt suicide, each of whom hurt basically only themselves and those who choose to not only put themselves at risk but also everyone else with whom they come into contact.

[JosefK]

Someone who really needs an ER can't get in because of unvaccinated people. Seriously? What the hell is wrong with some people? I wish they'd just leave the unvaccinated by their choice in the hospital parking lot. Just get them out of the gene pool if they contract covid. . Rant Over AJDAL out

https://www.instagram.com/p/CR49ed5F_9q/?hl=en

Guessing you haven't seen the Michael Rapaport rant in the link above sir?

[MadMax67]

Someone who really needs an ER can't get in because of unvaccinated people. Seriously? What the hell is wrong with some people? I wish they'd just leave the unvaccinated by their choice in the hospital parking lot. Just get them out of the gene pool if they contract covid. . Rant Over AJDAL out

So all cigarette smokers, all people who try and commit suicide, drunk and wreckless driver who get in accidents, drug addicts, self inflicted obese people, alcoholics and anyone who do things that cause themselves to be in bad health or have wreckless behaviour to become injured should be left in the hospital parking lot.

[Ajdal]

Someone who really needs an ER can't get in because of unvaccinated people. Seriously? What the hell is wrong with some people? I wish they'd just leave the unvaccinated by their choice in the hospital parking lot. Just get them out of the gene pool if they contract covid. . Rant Over AJDAL out

I think you are exaggerating and maybe fear mongering. It's not going to stop me. And I'm not vaccinated.