Rants and Stupid shit in Orange County

[BSouthgate]

I don't appreciate the discourteous response which feels like a personal attack tinged with some unnecessary hostility because I dared to disagree, and provided inconvenient facts that undermined your off topic pro-CCP propoganda narrative. The facts are widely available online.

I am familiar with both China and Chinese for decades. May I ask one question of you? Do you seriously believe what you are saying that mimics the state controlled / censored media and Chinese Communist Party talking points? Or, like the pro-CCP shills on Youtube (who claim there is no genocide or Uighurs, etc.), do you get paid to deliver this kind of message? Its been documented by some YT commentators that Chinese government agents reach out and offer cash payments for people to get online and propagate nonsense.

Yes, many Chinese are unaware of what is happening because they live in a dictatorship. There is no freedom of speech, and no neutral news sources. Several Chinese are in jail now for merely reporting what was happening with the pandemic. Another Chinese lady just got sentenced to 4 years in jail, for claiming she was sexually harassed. Many Chinese believe their media that Americans and Japanese are to blame for their downfall, and are lashing out with stabbing attacks on Americans and Japanese in the past week or two. On the other hand, Chinese are so desperate to get into the US, and they are lining up for miles at the US embassy in Beijing daily, and some sneak across the Mexican boarder now in record numbers.

Consider this possibility. The Western media propaganda told us that Saddam had WMD. They told us that Putin would be overthrown in a few months after he ordered the Ukraine invasion. They told us that the Russian economy would collapse under western sanctions.

They always make these kinds of lies about China. You are thoroughly convinced because you only read and listen to the western media. Your remarks reflect that since they mirror almost the exact words found in the legacy press (NYT, WP, NYP, BBC, CNN, FOX, etc) Perhaps DRD, you are being lied to like in the case of Saddam and Putin. I can only ask that you consider reading the work of Eric Li.

https://www.amazon.com/Party-Life-Ch...&keywords=eric+li+party+life&qid=1719457038&sprefix=eric+li+party+life%2 Caps%2 C135&sr=8-1.

Or, if you don't like to read, try his TED talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0YjL9rZyR0.

Or try this book by a Singaporean foreign minister:

https://www.amazon.com/Has-China-Won...ords=mahbubani+has+China+won&qid=1719457169&sprefix=mahbubani+has+China+won%2 Caps%2 C136&sr=8-1.

You like Singapore. In your comments you implied that this autocratically run city state is a liberal democracy. Guess you got that from the NYT or Fox.

Or you can try watching Cyrus Jansen.

https://www.capitaleconomics.com/qua...SAAEgI4SvD_BwE

Or better still, try visiting China for just a month and talking confidentially to some of its people.

No, DRD, I am not paid nor was I ever paid by the CCP. I sacrificed a lot in my life, to help China and I am proud of my contributions.

While the US government degenerates into forever political bickering between politicians controlled by corporations and wealthy donors, China is steadily moving ahead. I helped China a little tiny bit and I am so proud.

You mentioned Li Ke Qiang (correct spelling) in one of your posts. I shook hands with this guy in 2018, October. He probably did say something about 900,000 people still in poverty. Do the math if you are up to it. What percent is 900,000 out of 1.4 billion?

[DarkRoomDaddy]

DRD obviously hates China. But the Chinese people do not. How much time has DRD spent in China? Where are the sources of his bullshit? There are none cited.

I don't appreciate the discourteous response which feels like a personal attack tinged with some unnecessary hostility because I dared to disagree, and provided inconvenient facts that undermined your off topic pro-CCP propoganda narrative. The facts are widely available online.

I am familiar with both China and Chinese for decades. May I ask one question of you? Do you seriously believe what you are saying that mimics the state controlled / censored media and Chinese Communist Party talking points? Or, like the pro-CCP shills on Youtube (who claim there is no genocide or Uighurs, etc.), do you get paid to deliver this kind of message? Its been documented by some YT commentators that Chinese government agents reach out and offer cash payments for people to get online and propagate nonsense.

Yes, many Chinese are unaware of what is happening because they live in a dictatorship. There is no freedom of speech, and no neutral news sources. Several Chinese are in jail now for merely reporting what was happening with the pandemic. Another Chinese lady just got sentenced to 4 years in jail, for claiming she was sexually harassed. Many Chinese believe their media that Americans and Japanese are to blame for their downfall, and are lashing out with stabbing attacks on Americans and Japanese in the past week or two. On the other hand, Chinese are so desperate to get into the US, and they are lining up for miles at the US embassy in Beijing daily, and some sneak across the Mexican boarder now in record numbers.

[Grimmy23]

You have a great memory Grimmy.

The all male saunas were mostly in Shanghai, Shenzhen, east coast. Most of those that I frequented were in provincial cities like Chengdu and Kunming. All of them were great.

Ugh, Shenzhen. I used to call it Shitzhen. To be fair, most of my experiences there were in the early to mid-90's when that town was just a shithole. I literally couldn't walk more than 10 feet down a sidewalk without hookers not just propositioning me, but literally grabbing me and trying to pull me into a building. Most of them looked like low class street hookers. Nobody I'd want a toss in the hay with. I don't recall if saunas were a thing there at that time or not. I was still pretty naive about that sort of thing and you didn't just hop on the internet in those days to research stuff. I haven't been back to Shenzhen for many years but I do understand that the city has cleaned up a lot. Quangzhou was a similarly crappy city in those years, and that city has certainly cleaned up significantly.

I remember the Shanghai saunas having red rope service which is something I haven't seen anywhere else. That is where there were a set of red ropes above the bed. The girl would suspend herself from them upside down, then twist the ropes up and start giving you a BJ. As she was blowing you the ropes would untwist, so she's spinning around in a circle while bobbing her head up and down on your dick. It was interesting to say the least. I'm not sure I can say it felt better than a regular BJ but it was an interesting visual.

[BSouthgate]

My Chinese sauna experience was slightly different. I had 3 or 4 that I frequented that were all within walking distance of the Shanghai hotel I always stayed in. The routine in all four of them was I was immediately ushered into a locker room. None of these places were family friendly at all. They were strictly men's saunas. Things got a little weird (by Western standards) for the next few minutes. There were always male attendants helping you through the next few steps. In the locker room you'd strip naked and a male attendant would help you get your clothes in the locker and give you the key, which you wore around your wrist. You'd then walk down the hall to the showers and take a shower in full view of a bunch of other people (other naked male customers as well as clothed attendants). In a couple of them, male technicians would literally walk right into your shower stall (while fully clothed) to offer you the body scrub services. I always declined that. I just felt really weird having a clothed male walk up to me while I was showering to try to upsell me a scrub that he would be performing. When you were done showering, a male attendant would summon you over to his area where he would help dry you off and help you get dressed in the PJs. Again, just a little weird by our standards, but I know it wasn't seen as weird there so I just went with it. Somewhere along the way it seemed that there were always at least 1 or 2 Chinese customers doing push-ups naked. Just another slightly weird thing that I never understood. No biggie. Just deal with it.

After all of that, I would be escorted to a lounge room and directed to kick back in a comfortable recliner. The room had TVs playing some Chinese show. Not sure what it was. An attendant, usually slightly older female, would come up to offer me a drink and tell me to just relax for a little bit. Usually after about 10-15 minutes, a guy would get me and walk me to the fishbowl area where there would usually be between 15-20 girls standing behind glass. Unlike in Thailand, this was 2-way glass where the girls can see you. This was total kid in a candy store time. Some girls would make eye contact, some wouldn't. Some would smile at you or give you kind of a flirty seductive look. Some would give you more of a cold stare or look away or to the ground. I'd obviously avoid the latter. They didn't seem too interested in getting it on with a white guy. I'd go for the ones who smiled and seemed interested, but at the same time were a little bit shy. The one thing I learned was to not let the male rush you, as he usually would. He'd always say things like "you should select number 72. She gives a great massage. " But I just learned over time to tune him out and take my time. Some of the girls were very scantily clad in skimpy bikinis. Some were more modestly dressed. Some were extremely young looking. Some were older. There was a ton of variation and I always put a lot of thought into who to choose.

You have a great memory Grimmy.

The all male saunas were mostly in Shanghai, Shenzhen, east coast. Most of those that I frequented were in provincial cities like Chengdu and Kunming. All of them were great.

[BSouthgate]

This disagrees with all the info I have. And I am on this daily.

As of a year ago, the #2 guy in China after Xi was Li Kechiang who said that 900,000 Chinese make less than $300 a year. Now that was the good times. Now its all hitting the fan. The Chinese economy is about to implode. The housing market is crashing, some of the biggest developers have gone bankrupt, the cities which financed their operations through landsales are now screwed, people are losing their life savings in homes that are paid for but never built. There is growing social unrest. With employees not paid for months, people unable to withdraw their savings, etc. There is a demographic bomb of a huge number of baby boomers about to retire but with a small number of young Chinese to take their place. And those that do, are not willing to work the same as past generations. There is a "lie flat" or "let it rot" attitude among the young people.

According to state controlled media, China is number one in the world in everything. During the early stages of the pandemic almost no one was dying in China. Unlike the rest of the world. And yet independent studies on the number of cremations going 24 hours a day, and the number of phone lines disconnected during that period suggest the death toll was 10-100 times as bad as they said it was.

China is one of the most polluted countries on earth. In most big cities rare to see the sunshine through the smog. There are epidemics of fake dangerous food stuff and tofu dreg buildings, bridges, roads, and subway tunnels collapsing.

Virtually all of their technological achievements have come from forced tech transfers or outright espionage. Christopher Wray, director of FBI, said that China is mounting the largest espionage and tech stealing program in the world. Bigger than the rest of the world put together.

DRD obviously hates China. But the Chinese people do not. How much time has DRD spent in China? Where are the sources of his bullshit? There are none cited.

[DarkRoomDaddy]

Thanks for these clarifications. You are approaching something like accuracy regarding the PRC and prostitution therein. Still some homework to do.

1. Chinese factory workers made on average more than $40 per day in 2023. So your estimate of $16 to $18 is still way off the mark. See attached graph.

2. If you read my prior post, you will understand that there are Chinese women who enter the hotel business for access to relatively wealthy male customers. Some, like your Shanghai date 8 years ago, want casual compensated dates. Some are looking for marriage partners. Perhaps the waitress in the story in my post below was looking for a husband.

3. Yes, the CCP has cracked down on prostitution. Read my prior post for details. P4 P is still available but harder to find and more expensive.

4. On the positive side, besides the enormous increases in workers wages since 1990, there have been many other positive development within the PRC. Among them,

A. Life expectancy at birth continues to increase. The highest LE is in large cities like Shanghai where it approaches that in large US cities. However, the biggest increases are in the rural hinterlands.

This disagrees with all the info I have. And I am on this daily.

As of a year ago, the #2 guy in China after Xi was Li Kechiang who said that 900,000 Chinese make less than $300 a year. Now that was the good times. Now its all hitting the fan. The Chinese economy is about to implode. The housing market is crashing, some of the biggest developers have gone bankrupt, the cities which financed their operations through landsales are now screwed, people are losing their life savings in homes that are paid for but never built. There is growing social unrest. With employees not paid for months, people unable to withdraw their savings, etc. There is a demographic bomb of a huge number of baby boomers about to retire but with a small number of young Chinese to take their place. And those that do, are not willing to work the same as past generations. There is a "lie flat" or "let it rot" attitude among the young people.

According to state controlled media, China is number one in the world in everything. During the early stages of the pandemic almost no one was dying in China. Unlike the rest of the world. And yet independent studies on the number of cremations going 24 hours a day, and the number of phone lines disconnected during that period suggest the death toll was 10-100 times as bad as they said it was.

China is one of the most polluted countries on earth. In most big cities rare to see the sunshine through the smog. There are epidemics of fake dangerous food stuff and tofu dreg buildings, bridges, roads, and subway tunnels collapsing.

Virtually all of their technological achievements have come from forced tech transfers or outright espionage. Christopher Wray, director of FBI, said that China is mounting the largest espionage and tech stealing program in the world. Bigger than the rest of the world put together.

On the flip side, the tiny country of Taiwan and even smaller Singapore and Hong Kong demonstrate the potential of Chinese people. Allowed to prosper without the shackles of the military dictatorship of mainland China.

So that's the context of ladies coming to the US to work. They can make enough to support a huge family back home. In one day of taking their clothes off, they can make more than hubby or dad makes in a year. If you have dated or married any woman. Chinese, other Asian, American, Latina, etc. What percentage love sucking cum, and taking it up the ass? Maybe 0.1%? That's when they love you. Now imagine your a perfect stranger in a dark room. How much do you think they genuinely love all this stuff hour and hour with nameless dudes? Chinese culture is actually conservative. And you almost never see kissing or holding hands on Chinese tv. And for these girls to go total kink? Nah, its all for the benjamins baby.

[Grimmy23]

I also loved these places. Many of those that I frequented catered to families as well as to single guys looking for sex. You registered at a checkin desk like in a hotel. There you had take off your shoes and exchange them for the house flip flops. Men and women went to different shower facilities to shower and bathe in hot tubs. There was a guy in the locker room who gave non sexual massages using a kind of sand paper sponge that rubbed off all of the dead skin on all of your body. For the guys, this was a way of making your skin more sensitive when you got to the top floor (See below). After showering and changing into the house paper pajamas, you went up stairs to a large lounge that had dozens of massage sofas. Next to the lounge, there was a restaurant where you could eat a simple lunch. Young masseurs and masseuses circulated among the sofas offering Chinese foot massage which is very relaxing. For single guys, a floor manager would come by and ask if you wanted to take to the elevator to the top floor for special service massage. There was very little pressure. All very relaxed.

If you wanted to go to the top floor, the floor manager would accompany you to the elevator and send you on your way. When the door opened on the top floor, you would step into heaven. Scantily clad angels were everywhere. One would lead you to a room, exit and return with five or six other women. You had to choose. I usually chose by eye contact. If she was looking directly at me, I pointed at her. Maybe you had a better way of choosing.

After all the girls left the room, it was kind of like in this video:

https://motherless.com/7107D9A

Your masseuse would negotiate a price with you. It was usually $50 to $100 depending on the sauna, masseuse and services. I do not ever remember being rushed and I always was completely satisfied. Rimming and BBBJ were standard. Intercourse always with a condom.

After your blissful session, back downstairs for another foot massage or a plate of fried rice. Then back to the locker room to change clothes. On the way out, you paid a running tab that included everything. Wonderful establishments. Too bad they are gone.

My Chinese sauna experience was slightly different. I had 3 or 4 that I frequented that were all within walking distance of the Shanghai hotel I always stayed in. The routine in all four of them was I was immediately ushered into a locker room. None of these places were family friendly at all. They were strictly men's saunas. Things got a little weird (by Western standards) for the next few minutes. There were always male attendants helping you through the next few steps. In the locker room you'd strip naked and a male attendant would help you get your clothes in the locker and give you the key, which you wore around your wrist. You'd then walk down the hall to the showers and take a shower in full view of a bunch of other people (other naked male customers as well as clothed attendants). In a couple of them, male technicians would literally walk right into your shower stall (while fully clothed) to offer you the body scrub services. I always declined that. I just felt really weird having a clothed male walk up to me while I was showering to try to upsell me a scrub that he would be performing. When you were done showering, a male attendant would summon you over to his area where he would help dry you off and help you get dressed in the PJs. Again, just a little weird by our standards, but I know it wasn't seen as weird there so I just went with it. Somewhere along the way it seemed that there were always at least 1 or 2 Chinese customers doing push-ups naked. Just another slightly weird thing that I never understood. No biggie. Just deal with it.

After all of that, I would be escorted to a lounge room and directed to kick back in a comfortable recliner. The room had TVs playing some Chinese show. Not sure what it was. An attendant, usually slightly older female, would come up to offer me a drink and tell me to just relax for a little bit. Usually after about 10-15 minutes, a guy would get me and walk me to the fishbowl area where there would usually be between 15-20 girls standing behind glass. Unlike in Thailand, this was 2-way glass where the girls can see you. This was total kid in a candy store time. Some girls would make eye contact, some wouldn't. Some would smile at you or give you kind of a flirty seductive look. Some would give you more of a cold stare or look away or to the ground. I'd obviously avoid the latter. They didn't seem too interested in getting it on with a white guy. I'd go for the ones who smiled and seemed interested, but at the same time were a little bit shy. The one thing I learned was to not let the male rush you, as he usually would. He'd always say things like "you should select number 72. She gives a great massage. " But I just learned over time to tune him out and take my time. Some of the girls were very scantily clad in skimpy bikinis. Some were more modestly dressed. Some were extremely young looking. Some were older. There was a ton of variation and I always put a lot of thought into who to choose.

Once I chose a girl and got into the room, almost always the first thing that would happen is she would give me a big hug and DFK, then immediately pull my PJs off and direct me to the wet area. She'd remove her clothes and give me a very thorough bathing, starting with me sitting in the plastic chair that had a big slit in the center so that she could easily wash everything. That usually resulted in her soapy finger going up my back door to get it nice and clean. From there it was off to the table where she would do a soapy body slide back and front. A nice long rim job was always part of this step. Shanghai is where I got my first ever rim job and they were always absolutely heavenly. Then she'd dry me off and the real fun started. Everything was always on the table. BBBJ, CFS, sometimes even anal, but that depended on the girl.

After the main event the girl would walk you out to the hall, where you'd be met by another hot young scantily clad girl who wanted to sell you something like ear wax removal. I did it once or twice. There was no real hanky panky. Her clothes would stay on. She'd allow your hands to wander a little bit and hers might wander a little bit as well, but it was more of having a young Chinese hottie get flirty with you while she used a wooden tool to pick the wax out of your ears. They had other services like manicures and such as well.

After that you were offered the opportunity to either go back to your locker and change, or go back to the TV room for another round with another girl. I've never been one who could pop twice in fairly rapid succession. Even when I was younger I always needed a couple hours to recharge. So I always just left at this point and maybe went back later in the evening if I felt up to it.

I would give almost anything for an experience like that again. We don't have anything in the US that even comes close to matching up, and Shanghai no longer has them either (outside of maybe a couple that are operating underground). Those sauna clubs rank right up there among my best mongering experiences of all time, and they might even be #1 on my list.

[BSouthgate]

Thank you as well. It's nice to be able to have a civil discussion on here once in a while.

Once again, my last trip to China was in 2016, which was 8 years ago. If you once again follow the "10 year rule," my $18/ day estimate would be approaching $36/ day now. So my numbers are still tracking relatively closely with what you are reporting.

It's good to know the poverty level is down. I still have vivid pictures etched in my mind of being driven to the factory in the Minhang district of Shanghai and seeing all of the people living in houses that had half fallen down. The only other place I've seen something like that was in Haiti, and what I saw in Minhang was every bit as bad and in some cases worse.

I know the famous Shanghai sauna clubs got abruptly taken out shortly after my last visit and haven't made a comeback. I had many fun and memorable visits to those places, so it's sad to see them gone even though I will never be likely to travel to China alone again. So many memories of picking a girl out of the fishbowl and feeling like a kid in a candy shop and having a hard time making a decision. And if I didn't feel like going to a sauna club, rest assured a girl would magically show up in the hotel lobby. I knew if I sat there longer than half an hour or so at least one or two would show up. And once in a while that girl would even be part of the hotel staff..

I also loved these places. Many of those that I frequented catered to families as well as to single guys looking for sex. You registered at a checkin desk like in a hotel. There you had take off your shoes and exchange them for the house flip flops. Men and women went to different shower facilities to shower and bathe in hot tubs. There was a guy in the locker room who gave non sexual massages using a kind of sand paper sponge that rubbed off all of the dead skin on all of your body. For the guys, this was a way of making your skin more sensitive when you got to the top floor (See below). After showering and changing into the house paper pajamas, you went up stairs to a large lounge that had dozens of massage sofas. Next to the lounge, there was a restaurant where you could eat a simple lunch. Young masseurs and masseuses circulated among the sofas offering Chinese foot massage which is very relaxing. For single guys, a floor manager would come by and ask if you wanted to take to the elevator to the top floor for special service massage. There was very little pressure. All very relaxed.

If you wanted to go to the top floor, the floor manager would accompany you to the elevator and send you on your way. When the door opened on the top floor, you would step into heaven. Scantily clad angels were everywhere. One would lead you to a room, exit and return with five or six other women. You had to choose. I usually chose by eye contact. If she was looking directly at me, I pointed at her. Maybe you had a better way of choosing.

After all the girls left the room, it was kind of like in this video:

https://motherless.com/7107D9A

Your masseuse would negotiate a price with you. It was usually $50 to $100 depending on the sauna, masseuse and services. I do not ever remember being rushed and I always was completely satisfied. Rimming and BBBJ were standard. Intercourse always with a condom.

After your blissful session, back downstairs for another foot massage or a plate of fried rice. Then back to the locker room to change clothes. On the way out, you paid a running tab that included everything. Wonderful establishments. Too bad they are gone.

[Grimmy23]

Thanks for these clarifications. You are approaching something like accuracy regarding the PRC and prostitution therein. Still some homework to do.


Thank you for this great exchange.

Thank you as well. It's nice to be able to have a civil discussion on here once in a while.

Once again, my last trip to China was in 2016, which was 8 years ago. If you once again follow the "10 year rule," my $18/ day estimate would be approaching $36/ day now. So my numbers are still tracking relatively closely with what you are reporting.

It's good to know the poverty level is down. I still have vivid pictures etched in my mind of being driven to the factory in the Minhang district of Shanghai and seeing all of the people living in houses that had half fallen down. The only other place I've seen something like that was in Haiti, and what I saw in Minhang was every bit as bad and in some cases worse.

I know the famous Shanghai sauna clubs got abruptly taken out shortly after my last visit and haven't made a comeback. I had many fun and memorable visits to those places, so it's sad to see them gone even though I will never be likely to travel to China alone again. So many memories of picking a girl out of the fishbowl and feeling like a kid in a candy shop and having a hard time making a decision. And if I didn't feel like going to a sauna club, rest assured a girl would magically show up in the hotel lobby. I knew if I sat there longer than half an hour or so at least one or two would show up. And once in a while that girl would even be part of the hotel staff.

Back in the 90's it was very, very difficult to find any action in Hong Kong. What was available in HK was prohibitively expensive for me at the time. I understand that has changed significantly. I used to go to HK and then cross the border into Shenzhen. Sex was very much available in Shenzhen. The street hookers were out in full force. I literally couldn't walk 10 feet down a public street without being propositioned. I even remember checking into hotels in Shenzhen, Guangzhao, Donguan, and a few other cities and the hookers literally started calling me in my room. "Hello. Chinese girl. Massagee? That was pre-cell phone days obviously. I remember I usually had to unplug the phone in my room to get any sleep.

China had the highest Covid survival rate because the government took very draconian measures to lock people down. Was that the right approach? Well you can't argue with how successful it was in limiting the spread, but you also have to realize that those types of measures would never have worked here. People raised holy hell over just being required to wear masks in public places. If we started locking people into their housing units we would have had widespread civil unrest. That's an entirely different discussion that goes well outside the scope of this forum though.

[BSouthgate]

A couple points of clarification.

First of all, what I meant to say was "various other places around the WORLD. " Yes, I spent a crap ton of time in China. I also spent a lot of time in places like the Philippines, Thailand, Malaysia, Japan, and many other Asian countries. I even visited a factory in North Korea and spent a night in the DPRK which was an entirely different experience. Long story, but there was a short window of time when the two Koreas were cooperating, and they had a joint factory in the North so that the North Koreans would have jobs and the South had access to cheap North Korean labor. Up there you're literally locked in your hotel room. You can't leave without your government assigned guide. I was encouraged to get a massage in the hotel "spa" since I couldn't go anywhere. The spa was really a BJ factory staffed by Chinese girls who were there to service the foreigners who weren't allowed to leave the building. Anyway, I digress. I also did many other similar work trips in Europe.

Out of all of the places I've been, which at last count is somewhere between 65 and 70 countries, there are three where I feel like sex literally followed me everywhere: China, the Philippines, and Thailand. There are many other countries where it's readily available, including many in Europe, but in those countries you have to go looking for it. In these three it just shows up at your door whether you're looking for it it not. This isn't to say I have a bad opinion of any of these countries' cultures. I definitely do not. But it is very safe to say that attitudes towards sex and sex workers are very different than the western attitudes towards them.

Yes, the days of the Chinese factory workers making $1 or $2/ day wages was from my first trip to China in 1990. Using the standard rule of thumb of the cost of things doubling every 10 years, that would be closer to $16-$18/ day today. As recently as 2016 I was working for a very large and very deep pocketed multi-national corporation with 250,000 employees. I know for a fact that our factory workers, who were working in a very nice, modern factory just outside of Shanghai, were making about $500/ month, which was above the local average wage. My $18/ day estimate is pretty much right on par with that.

Thanks for these clarifications. You are approaching something like accuracy regarding the PRC and prostitution therein. Still some homework to do.

1. Chinese factory workers made on average more than $40 per day in 2023. So your estimate of $16 to $18 is still way off the mark. See attached graph.

2. If you read my prior post, you will understand that there are Chinese women who enter the hotel business for access to relatively wealthy male customers. Some, like your Shanghai date 8 years ago, want casual compensated dates. Some are looking for marriage partners. Perhaps the waitress in the story in my post below was looking for a husband.

3. Yes, the CCP has cracked down on prostitution. Read my prior post for details. P4 P is still available but harder to find and more expensive.

4. On the positive side, besides the enormous increases in workers wages since 1990, there have been many other positive development within the PRC. Among them,

A. Life expectancy at birth continues to increase. The highest LE is in large cities like Shanghai where it approaches that in large US cities. However, the biggest increases are in the rural hinterlands.

B. China has the highest per capita survival rate from the recent COVID pandemic.

C. Medical insurance coverage has been extended to include 96% of the population from about 50% when I started doing medical work in China in 2003.

D. Poverty as defined by the World Bank has decreased to almost zero in China.

E. China is leading the world in production of clean technology, especially solar panels and EVs.

So, if you want to witness a socio-economic miracle, go to China and stay awhile. If you want to have a sex vacation, Thailand is better. Hong Kong also pretty good.

Thank you for this great exchange.

[Grimmy23]

I know of shops in Westminster where the girls sleep overnight in the shop. I am sure that's not legal. Other local shops have a safe house provided by owner, where they get rent from their employees. In one case, owner has several manufactured homes across the street from the shop. In almost all shops, you can catch a girl catching a catnap during business hours too.

As for whether its imprisonment or not. Just imagine if someone dropped you into the middle of China illegally. How well could you navigate the roads, much less ask anyone for help, or go to the authorities. That's not imprisonment, but its defacto "up a creek". When providers do jump ship, they seem to have access to some networks on WeChat where there is word of mouth announcements of other jobs. In some cases, one girl saves enough money to open her own shop, and then invites some trusted friends to come to her new shop.

Sleeping overnight in the shop is most definitely illegal. I don't know of a single city in California that allows people to sleep in a massage related business. It is specifically spelled out in the terms of your business license. Mine says that we can't be open past 10 PM and all occupants must be out of the building no later than 11. There are also usually zoning regulations in place that specify no sleeping in storefronts.

[Grimmy23]

There is so much to unpack in Grimmy's post. Lets start with the first sentence:

"Back in my previous career before owning my own business, I spent countless hours hanging around various types of factories in Asia and other parts of the country. ".

In which country is Asia located, Grimmy?

I assume you mean the PRC. Is that correct?

It is also not clear which time period Grimmy is talking about. If I assume that his estimate of factory workers' wages is accurate, it was probably the early to mid 1990's. I get that from the attached graph showing the exponential increase in average Chinese manufacturing wage vs year. In the early 1990's, Chinese workers did make very little.

I have a problem with Grimmy's story about the factory boss offering any employee that Grimmy fancies for a night of fun. Even during the extreme corruption of the late Jiang Zemin and early Hu Jintao eras, it is highly unlikely that the boss could just offer any factory worker, like they do from lineups in brothels. Probably a misunderstanding.

A couple points of clarification.

First of all, what I meant to say was "various other places around the WORLD. " Yes, I spent a crap ton of time in China. I also spent a lot of time in places like the Philippines, Thailand, Malaysia, Japan, and many other Asian countries. I even visited a factory in North Korea and spent a night in the DPRK which was an entirely different experience. Long story, but there was a short window of time when the two Koreas were cooperating, and they had a joint factory in the North so that the North Koreans would have jobs and the South had access to cheap North Korean labor. Up there you're literally locked in your hotel room. You can't leave without your government assigned guide. I was encouraged to get a massage in the hotel "spa" since I couldn't go anywhere. The spa was really a BJ factory staffed by Chinese girls who were there to service the foreigners who weren't allowed to leave the building. Anyway, I digress. I also did many other similar work trips in Europe.

Out of all of the places I've been, which at last count is somewhere between 65 and 70 countries, there are three where I feel like sex literally followed me everywhere: China, the Philippines, and Thailand. There are many other countries where it's readily available, including many in Europe, but in those countries you have to go looking for it. In these three it just shows up at your door whether you're looking for it it not. This isn't to say I have a bad opinion of any of these countries' cultures. I definitely do not. But it is very safe to say that attitudes towards sex and sex workers are very different than the western attitudes towards them.

Yes, the days of the Chinese factory workers making $1 or $2/ day wages was from my first trip to China in 1990. Using the standard rule of thumb of the cost of things doubling every 10 years, that would be closer to $16-$18/ day today. As recently as 2016 I was working for a very large and very deep pocketed multi-national corporation with 250,000 employees. I know for a fact that our factory workers, who were working in a very nice, modern factory just outside of Shanghai, were making about $500/ month, which was above the local average wage. My $18/ day estimate is pretty much right on par with that.

China is in many ways (ignoring its government and human rights record, of course) a beautiful and amazing country with a very vibrant culture. In other ways, there are things that are incredibly disturbing. For example, the last factory I mentioned was about 15-20 minutes outside of central Shanghai. It was a really nice, modern building with all of the modern amenities and better working conditions than many US factories I've been in. However, it was in the middle of a neighborhood full of houses that were literally falling down, with families still living in them. Literally, one or two of the walls would be piles of brick rubble, and were replaced by blue tarps. The car ride into the factory was always pretty depressing as I saw more poverty than I've seen almost anywhere else on Earth (with one exception being in Cap Haitian, Haiti). I spent a good deal of my time in China off the beaten path in areas like this.

As for the factory story and girls being offered to me, that may have been partially a misunderstanding. Again, it was back in the early 90's. I was in my early 20's and obviously not as seasoned and well traveled as I am now. There was a definite language barrier in play. I spoke no Mandarin (and still don't) and my hosts spoke only basic English. I can say with 100% certainty that I was offered girls from the factory to be delivered to my hotel room. Maybe I misunderstood it to mean "any girl I wanted. " Maybe they just had a select few who were willing to have fun outside of work. I don't know and I wasn't really interested in finding out back then. It was a new thing to me that I wasn't expecting, and I was just getting my career started and wasn't willing to take any risks without knowing the landscape.

Regarding the hotel workers, I can also say with 100% confidence that I was propositioned by them as recently as 2016. This was in a nice business class hotel in central Shanghai, and it happened more than once. I didn't partake on that trip, but on one occasion on an earlier trip I did take the opportunity to "have a drink" with one of the front desk girls after she got off work and it resulted in her ending up my room for about $100. So it still happens there, or at least did still happen there as recently as 8 years ago. Perhaps an American there by himself on a business trip gets treated a little differently, and perhaps things have changed since then.

Please note that none of this is me knocking Chinese society or culture at all. I had some of my best mongering times ever in China. The sauna clubs in Shanghai were amazing. Better than anything I ever had in Thailand for less money, and usually with younger, prettier girls. No need to get deep into details here, but I had things done to me there that I still haven't experienced anywhere else. I have heard that the CCP cracked down on most of that shortly after my last visit. All of the sauna clubs got raided and shut down, and the scene has been a lot tighter ever since. I abruptly left the Corporate world in the middle of 2016 and from what I've heard it wasn't a moment too soon. I'm sure the sex industry is still thriving there. You don't just pull the plug on something like that and expect it to go away. But it seems like it is much more underground now than it once was.

[BSouthgate]

I know of shops in Westminster where the girls sleep overnight in the shop. I am sure that's not legal. Other local shops have a safe house provided by owner, where they get rent from their employees. In one case, owner has several manufactured homes across the street from the shop. In almost all shops, you can catch a girl catching a catnap during business hours too.

As for whether its imprisonment or not. Just imagine if someone dropped you into the middle of China illegally. How well could you navigate the roads, much less ask anyone for help, or go to the authorities. That's not imprisonment, but its defacto "up a creek". When providers do jump ship, they seem to have access to some networks on WeChat where there is word of mouth announcements of other jobs. In some cases, one girl saves enough money to open her own shop, and then invites some trusted friends to come to her new shop.

I know a guy who goes to massage parlors to find angels to have fun with. I am sure that is not legal. Other guys take hotel rooms across the street and invite the massage women to join them for a night.

Dark Room. It may not be legal in the US but neither are our escapades at the OC MPs.

"Just imagine if someone dropped you into the middle of China illegally."

I am imagining. I would head for the nearest sauna or massage parlor. I would be greeted by loads of curious and kind people who would direct me to where I can get help from the local police or social services or maybe I would watch Karaoke in the park like this lady. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rteCO3uPAMk

Don't make so many assumptions about a country you know almost nothing about. Go there and see for yourself.

[BSouthgate]

There is so much to unpack in Grimmy's post. Lets start with the first sentence:

"Back in my previous career before owning my own business, I spent countless hours hanging around various types of factories in Asia and other parts of the country. ".

In which country is Asia located, Grimmy?

I assume you mean the PRC. Is that correct?

It is also not clear which time period Grimmy is talking about. If I assume that his estimate of factory workers' wages is accurate, it was probably the early to mid 1990's. I get that from the attached graph showing the exponential increase in average Chinese manufacturing wage vs year. In the early 1990's, Chinese workers did make very little.

I have a problem with Grimmy's story about the factory boss offering any employee that Grimmy fancies for a night of fun. Even during the extreme corruption of the late Jiang Zemin and early Hu Jintao eras, it is highly unlikely that the boss could just offer any factory worker, like they do from lineups in brothels. Probably a misunderstanding.

You see Grimmy, I did not like you spend "countless hours" in Asia, I spent 18 years there, almost 12 months each year. I have a Chinese wife and I am fluent in Mandarin. I have studied Chinese culture especially related to health care. So lets go on.

The boss could have no doubt found a girl willing to share a good time with Grimmy but not just any girl. To understand this, some historical context is helpful.

It is so helpful to understand historical context of a cultural phenomenon.

Prostitution was a state supported profession during most of the Chinese dynasties. There was no shame in visiting a brothel in Tang (618-906 AD), Song (960-1279 AD), Ming (1368-1640 AD) or Qing (1644-1912 AD) China. During the Song and Ming Dynasties (960-1640 AD, about 700 years), brothels were openly frequented by poets, artists, scholars and nobility. These customers had to provide monetary gifts and court the prostitutes to win their favor. If a prostitute did not want to make love with a customer, even after he had paid her, that was her right. In the preceding Tang Dynasty (300 years), prostitutes were greatly respected as women who had broken free from rural poverty to achieve economic success and sexual freedom. During the reign of the Tang empress Wu, prostitutes achieved their highest status in Chinese society. To sum it up, there were never any sanctions on prostitutes, male or female in Ancient China until the CCP took over in 1949. The CCP banned and successfully suppressed prostitution.

Since imperial China's sex workers had served the wealthy classes and since the CCP's goal was to create a classless society, between 1950 and 1978, prostitution was crushed with police raids and confinement of sex workers in re-education centers.

In parallel with the Chinese commercial sex industry, there was a larger society of millions of Chinese families who believed that, though sex was fun, its main purpose was procreation. In these situations, first marriages for boys were arranged by the families and were a kind of business deal to mutually benefit the two families. There was a silver lining for the groom. If his family farm was economically successful, he could, after his first wife had a few children, take and keep more wives for more fun and more children. Read for example "The Good Earth" by Pearl Buck.

This did not work out so well for rural women who had little or no choice regarding marriage partners, who were forbidden to have extra-marital relationships and who could not divorce their husbands. During the CCP period (1950 1978), a more gender equal society was created by allowing only one wife per husband and allowing fairly easy divorce for either party. However, premarital and extramarital sex was forbidden for everyone.

In 1978, Deng Xiao Ping, the new leader of the PRC instituted widespread economic and political reforms. Private businesses spread across China, especially in designated areas along the southeast coast. The hukou laws that restricted the internal travel of rural people were loosened and prostitution bans were lifted or not enforced. This resulted in massive relocations of people from rural to urban regions and the growth of a wealthy class of business elites who had money to burn on recreational fun. Young rural women and girls, some single, some married moved from the poor rural areas to the growing prosperity of the cities to work in factories and shops so they could better support themselves and their families.

These new female arrivals also found employment in brothels, saunas, massage parlors.

https://pornzog.com/video/11127138/a...y-party-manny/

As hotel ding-dong xiaojies shown here.

https://pornzog.com/video/12354886/a...y-party-manny/

And in the alley cathouses like the one shown below.

https://motherless.com/AB6FB8D

Some of these young women sought out jobs in the hotel, restaurant and entertainment industries. They had hopes to meet wealthy travelling Chinese and foreign executives and professionals. Their visions included both compensated dates and long term lucrative relationships with male visitors from other Chinese cities, from Hong Kong, Taiwan and from foreign countries. Enter our hero, Grimmy. It would have been so interesting if Grimmy had accepted the date with the front desk hotel employee and lived to tell us about it. On one occasion, a waitress approached me with a similar proposition. After she ended her shift, I walked her home quite platonically. I took her number but never saw her again.

This was part of the Chinese sexual revolution. One study of Chinese women's sexual practices found that as many as 29% of older men who had undergone graduate education had, at some time in their lives, paid money or other material compensation directly for sexual services. This is higher than in the US or most European countries. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/ful...7150X221114599.

Seen in the context of the prior imperial history of social acceptance of prostitution, this sexual revolution was like a re-awakening of an ancient cultural norm. Like their predecessors in the dynastic era, young women who, in childhood, had experienced destitution and the humiliation of arranged marriages on the farms were elevated to the status of modern day concubines and courtesans. They did not have to marry a grubby farmer in their home town. Instead, they could have countless husbands, each for a few hours and each providing financial support that was unheard of back home.

A part of this revolution was the liberation of both men and women to receive material benefits in exchange for sex. Yes, this applied to young men sought out by wealthy Chinese women as well as to female pros. One study showed that 2 to 5 % of Chinese women had purchased sex from a man during their lifetimes.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/ful...7150X221114599

Note that this is much higher than similar percentages of western women who pay for sex with men. I experienced two such "dates" where Chinese business women paid for my air transport and hotels to their home cities and gave me an allowance if I would sexually entertain them in hotel rooms. These two women were far from attractive but were ardent lovers who especially enjoyed cunnilingus, a treat that they had a hard time finding among local men. Attached is a photo of one of my two "clients" enjoying my company.

Unfortunately, Chairman Xi stifled this sexual revolution starting in about 2012 until the present. It is still fairly easy to find pros in the big cities but the rates have gone up, the quality of service has dropped and it is difficult to impossible to take the girl to your hotel room.

I am a cautious fan of Chairman Xi because he has done much to alleviate the poverty that in rural areas and he has supported health care and education in China. However, I do wish he would allow the return of ding-dong xiaojies and massage saunas.

I hope you guys will all visit China some day. But please make an effort to understand this wonderful country. Read a good history like that by Spencer or Wasserstrom. Read something about Confucianism and go with an open mind.

There is so much to unpack in Grimmy's post. Lets start with the first sentence:

"Back in my previous career before owning my own business, I spent countless hours hanging around various types of factories in Asia and other parts of the country."

In which country is Asia located, Grimmy?

I assume you mean the PRC. Is that correct?

It is also not clear which time period Grimmy is talking about. If I assume that his estimate of factory workers' wages is accurate, it was probably the early to mid 1990's. I get that from the attached graph showing the exponential increase in average Chinese manufacturing wage vs year. In the early 1990's, Chinese workers did make very little.

I have a problem with Grimmy's story about the factory boss offering any employee that Grimmy fancies for a night of fun. Even during the extreme corruption of the late Jiang Zemin and early Hu Jintao eras, it is highly unlikely that the boss could just offer any factory worker, like they do from lineups in brothels. Probably a misunderstanding.

You see Grimmy, I did not like you spend "countless hours" in Asia, I spent 18 years there, almost 12 months each year. I have a Chinese wife and I am fluent in Mandarin. I have studied Chinese culture especially related to health care. So lets go on.

The boss could have no doubt found a girl willing to share a good time with Grimmy but not just any girl. To understand this, some historical context is helpful.

It is so helpful to understand historical context of a cultural phenomenon.

Prostitution was a state supported profession during most of the Chinese dynasties. There was no shame in visiting a brothel in Tang (618-906 AD), Song (960-1279 AD), Ming (1368-1640 AD) or Qing (1644-1912 AD) China. During the Song and Ming Dynasties (960-1640 AD, about 700 years), brothels were openly frequented by poets, artists, scholars and nobility. These customers had to provide monetary gifts and court the prostitutes to win their favor. If a prostitute did not want to make love with a customer, even after he had paid her, that was her right. In the preceding Tang Dynasty (300 years), prostitutes were greatly respected as women who had broken free from rural poverty to achieve economic success and sexual freedom. During the reign of the Tang empress Wu, prostitutes achieved their highest status in Chinese society. To sum it up, there were never any sanctions on prostitutes, male or female in Ancient China until the CCP took over in 1949. The CCP banned and successfully suppressed prostitution.

Since imperial China's sex workers had served the wealthy classes and since the CCP's goal was to create a classless society, between 1950 and 1978, prostitution was crushed with police raids and confinement of sex workers in re-education centers.

In parallel with the Chinese commercial sex industry, there was a larger society of millions of Chinese families who believed that, though sex was fun, its main purpose was procreation. In these situations, first marriages for boys were arranged by the families and were a kind of business deal to mutually benefit the two families. There was a silver lining for the groom. If his family farm was economically successful, he could, after his first wife had a few children, take and keep more wives for more fun and more children. Read for example "The Good Earth" by Pearl Buck.

This did not work out so well for rural women who had little or no choice regarding marriage partners, who were forbidden to have extra-marital relationships and who could not divorce their husbands. During the CCP period (1950 1978), a more gender equal society was created by allowing only one wife per husband and allowing fairly easy divorce for either party. However, premarital and extramarital sex was forbidden for everyone.

In 1978, Deng Xiao Ping, the new leader of the PRC instituted widespread economic and political reforms. Private businesses spread across China, especially in designated areas along the southeast coast. The hukou laws that restricted the internal travel of rural people were loosened and prostitution bans were lifted or not enforced. This resulted in massive relocations of people from rural to urban regions and the growth of a wealthy class of business elites who had money to burn on recreational fun. Young rural women and girls, some single, some married moved from the poor rural areas to the growing prosperity of the cities to work in factories and shops so they could better support themselves and their families.

These new female arrivals also found employment in brothels, saunas, massage parlors.

https://pornzog.com/video/11127138/a...y-party-manny/

As hotel ding-dong xiaojies shown here.

https://pornzog.com/video/12354886/a...y-party-manny/

And in the alley cathouses like the one shown below.

https://motherless.com/AB6FB8D

Some of these young women sought out jobs in the hotel, restaurant and entertainment industries. They had hopes to meet wealthy travelling Chinese and foreign executives and professionals. Their visions included both compensated dates and long term lucrative relationships with male visitors from other Chinese cities, from Hong Kong, Taiwan and from foreign countries. Enter our hero, Grimmy. It would have been so interesting if Grimmy had accepted the date with the front desk hotel employee and lived to tell us about it. On one occasion, a waitress approached me with a similar proposition. After she ended her shift, I walked her home quite platonically. I took her number but never saw her again.

This was part of the Chinese sexual revolution. One study of Chinese women's sexual practices found that as many as 29% of older men who had undergone graduate education had, at some time in their lives, paid money or other material compensation directly for sexual services. This is higher than in the US or most European countries. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/ful...7150X221114599.

Seen in the context of the prior imperial history of social acceptance of prostitution, this sexual revolution was like a re-awakening of an ancient cultural norm. Like their predecessors in the dynastic era, young women who, in childhood, had experienced destitution and the humiliation of arranged marriages on the farms were elevated to the status of modern day concubines and courtesans. They did not have to marry a grubby farmer in their home town. Instead, they could have countless husbands, each for a few hours and each providing financial support that was unheard of back home.

A part of this revolution was the liberation of both men and women to receive material benefits in exchange for sex. Yes, this applied to young men sought out by wealthy Chinese women as well as to female pros. One study showed that 2 to 5 % of Chinese women had purchased sex from a man during their lifetimes.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/ful...7150X221114599

Note that this is much higher than similar percentages of western women who pay for sex with men. I experienced two such "dates" where Chinese business women paid for my air transport and hotels to their home cities and gave me an allowance if I would sexually entertain them in hotel rooms. These two women were far from attractive but were ardent lovers who especially enjoyed cunnilingus, a treat that they had a hard time finding among local men. Attached is a photo of one of my two "clients" enjoying my company.

Unfortunately, Chairman Xi stifled this sexual revolution starting in about 2012 until the present. It is still fairly easy to find pros in the big cities but the rates have gone up, the quality of service has dropped and it is difficult to impossible to take the girl to your hotel room.

I am a cautious fan of Chairman Xi because he has done much to alleviate the poverty that in rural areas and he has supported health care and education in China. However, I do wish he would allow the return of ding-dong xiaojies and massage saunas.

I hope you guys will all visit China some day. But please make an effort to understand this wonderful country. Read a good history like that by Spencer or Wasserstrom. Read something about Confucianism and go with an open mind.

[DarkRoomDaddy]

Thank you as well! This is a great discussion and I appreciate keeping everything civil, even though we may not agree on all points.

About the free or low cost room and board and being exploitative, it's about the girls being "stuck. " Again, it isn't jail. They can leave if they wish. There's no walls around them. But if they leave they aren't likely to have anywhere to go. They may not even be documented as you pointed out. There are AMP owners who exploit that. I won't mention which spas they are because I'm not here to call anybody out. There are even some spas where the girls are expected to have sex with the owner at his whim. I know a couple girls who have "escaped" that setting, only to go back later because once they escaped they found they had no other options to keep a roof over their heads. Some of them ultimately got their own places. Good for them. They're much more free than they were before, but still stuck giving HJs and BJs for a living because they have no other skills that pay enough to meet their living expenses.

Offering affordable houses to employees is one thing. Offering affordable housing to employees under condition of them continuing to work in your illegal shop, while said employees are undocumented and clearly have no other options, and subjecting them to deplorable working conditions is another thing entirely. Many of these girls are literally stuck.

I know of shops in Westminster where the girls sleep overnight in the shop. I am sure that's not legal. Other local shops have a safe house provided by owner, where they get rent from their employees. In one case, owner has several manufactured homes across the street from the shop. In almost all shops, you can catch a girl catching a catnap during business hours too.

As for whether its imprisonment or not. Just imagine if someone dropped you into the middle of China illegally. How well could you navigate the roads, much less ask anyone for help, or go to the authorities. That's not imprisonment, but its defacto "up a creek". When providers do jump ship, they seem to have access to some networks on WeChat where there is word of mouth announcements of other jobs. In some cases, one girl saves enough money to open her own shop, and then invites some trusted friends to come to her new shop.