"Sugarbabies" / "Arrangements" Amateurs or Not?

[OliverNP]

Hard to understand why it's even a discussion about how some guys can fuck up a market for everyone else. If I go to the Cosmo and have a drink at the Vesper bar, it's way overpriced for what I could get if I wanted to shoot down to Freemont. With all this game everyone keeps going on about, how could anyone paying more for something than you affect your success rate? Just "game" them and talk it down.

Of course, I guess I can practice chatting up the hotel management to see if they'll give me Freemont prices.
Do I mess it up for everyone buying an expensive car if I simply pay sticker because I don't feel like fucking around and it doesn't matter to me? What if I just pay the stated rate for a suite, when I could get it for half-off if I spent some time trying? Do I ruin it for those that want to get the best price possible?

The variable ends at the cash. You have enough, you don't have to give a single fuck what other people pay.

I've never walked in a food / beverage establishment that said to me "I know I charged you $5 for that drink yesterday, but you only tipped $1. Other customers are tipping $4 so I needed to increase the price of the drink to $10".

Yet that same pricing scenario, applied to SBs and pussy, has happened to me at least a few dozen times. This means I have to either pay her more, or consider her off the market. Finding new ones in a given city costs time and money so the inflation caused by others has impacted my bottom line more times than I can remember.

If others have never had that experience, then hats off to you and I hope you never need to deal with it. If there's one thing I've learned reading these forums is that my experiences in the sugar lifestyle are not exactly like others. I do tend to play the game in a way that I pay allowances that are seemingly lower than typical, and this may make my methods more susceptible to the inflation scenario I've described here.

Even still though, basic economic principles should explain all of this better than I can. For any type of service, sexual or otherwise, if the provider is able to earn 2x more the rate per hour from customer B than customer A is willing to provide, they have little reason to continue providing to customer A because it demonstrates to them that the 2x rate is available and thus their time is better spent with the 2x paying customers. This upward pressure on price is not limited to sexual services.

There is of course a human element involved in sexual interaction, and some SBs (the good ones, IMHO) would prefer the idea of getting a couple of hundred from a super fit SD that they enjoy being around instead of two or three times as much from an out of shape or annoying SD.... but many of them start out as the former and gravitate to the latter. Why? Because if the market is there for it, sometimes financial desperation leads them to it.

Imagine a fantasy scenario where sugaring was somehow regulated or all SDs everywhere agreed to never pay more than $200 per over-nighter per girl and actually followed through with that limit (almost hard to imagine, I know, but for the sake of this example). What do you think would happen? Would there still be GPS girls on the site asking for $1000+ per night? Of course not. So, why then do GPS girls exist? In some cases it's because someone has paid them that before and they know feel they "know their worth", in other cases it might be because their friend told them they were able to get that, etc. But the bottom line is that if someone, somewhere were not overpaying, there would be no GPS girls at all.

[FarFarAway]

I may not have expressed it well, but I tried to describe my experiences with girls' increasing allowance expectation. I have to believe that for the most part someone is paying them a lot more for them than I was for them to tell me that outright. This type of experience was what came to mind when I read your question about whether there was any evidence or not. I don't know if it qualifies as evidence, but to me it suggests there is some similar phenomenon that puts upward pressure on prices over time.

It's hard to say the guys overpaying were losers without knowing them, but I will say I have known guys who just have zero game, terrible luck with women, etc. And they are in my experience usually the ones who end up overpaying for pussy.

I do think some guys drive the market up, otherwise there wouldn't be so many stories of increasingly inflated expectations. But, what is the definition of a loser, how much allowance is considered ridiculous, and for what league of a girl, and whose definition of a league etc. Too many variables.

Look, SA is in business to make $, they get that only from us. However, they need bait, SBs, and they don't want to actually pay for them. But what they do is promise them all the riches they can have. So, that is why there are all sorts of blogs, podcasts, etc. That tell girls that they can get all sorts of $ from SDs. SA also may promote the fiction that girls don't have to put out to get that. That lets them join the site without thinking they are also joining the worlds oldest profession. Whether they ever make the transition from a wannabe to an actual SB has a lot to do w / their vanilla dating experience and the sorts of males they get connected with from the site.

[RogerOver]

Glad to have catalyzed this discussion. I don't hear anyone defending the idea that there really are loser guys giving girls ridiculous allowances and screwing the market for the rest of us.

I may not have expressed it well, but I tried to describe my experiences with girls' increasing allowance expectation. I have to believe that for the most part someone is paying them a lot more for them than I was for them to tell me that outright. This type of experience was what came to mind when I read your question about whether there was any evidence or not. I don't know if it qualifies as evidence, but to me it suggests there is some similar phenomenon that puts upward pressure on prices over time.

It's hard to say the guys overpaying were losers without knowing them, but I will say I have known guys who just have zero game, terrible luck with women, etc. And they are in my experience usually the ones who end up overpaying for pussy.

I do think some guys drive the market up, otherwise there wouldn't be so many stories of increasingly inflated expectations. But, what is the definition of a loser, how much allowance is considered ridiculous, and for what league of a girl, and whose definition of a league etc. Too many variables.

Hard to understand why it's even a discussion about how some guys can fuck up a market for everyone else. If I go to the Cosmo and have a drink at the Vesper bar, it's way overpriced for what I could get if I wanted to shoot down to Freemont. With all this game everyone keeps going on about, how could anyone paying more for something than you affect your success rate? Just "game" them and talk it down.

Of course, I guess I can practice chatting up the hotel management to see if they'll give me Freemont prices.
Do I mess it up for everyone buying an expensive car if I simply pay sticker because I don't feel like fucking around and it doesn't matter to me? What if I just pay the stated rate for a suite, when I could get it for half-off if I spent some time trying? Do I ruin it for those that want to get the best price possible?

The variable ends at the cash. You have enough, you don't have to give a single fuck what other people pay.

[OliverNP]

Glad to have catalyzed this discussion. I don't hear anyone defending the idea that there really are loser guys giving girls ridiculous allowances and screwing the market for the rest of us.

I may not have expressed it well, but I tried to describe my experiences with girls' increasing allowance expectation. I have to believe that for the most part someone is paying them a lot more for them than I was for them to tell me that outright. This type of experience was what came to mind when I read your question about whether there was any evidence or not. I don't know if it qualifies as evidence, but to me it suggests there is some similar phenomenon that puts upward pressure on prices over time.

It's hard to say the guys overpaying were losers without knowing them, but I will say I have known guys who just have zero game, terrible luck with women, etc. And they are in my experience usually the ones who end up overpaying for pussy.

I do think some guys drive the market up, otherwise there wouldn't be so many stories of increasingly inflated expectations. But, what is the definition of a loser, how much allowance is considered ridiculous, and for what league of a girl, and whose definition of a league etc. Too many variables.

[OliverNP]

Low road? I hear you. I had a sweet young thing who used to be happy with 100 a meet and now she wants 300 an hour! She had graduated from SB to high-priced escort. From a SD point of view this was a bad thing. But, from a SB point of view, she was moving up in the world.

I wonder how many escorts get into their 40's, 50's, 60's and beyond and feel like they are moving up as the demand for their services (and prices they can get) fall away. I've seen some pretty pathetic cases. I've seen aged-out sex workers get on YT and literally cry about customers who left after seeing them in person, or who did the deed but wouldn't hang around long enough to have a cup of coffee and small talk because they wanted to get the hell away. It doesn't really matter if a former SB turned escort THINKS she is moving up. She can't rewrite history. History is made up of facts and not opinions. Their market value rapidly depreciates over time as an escort (or as any woman who makes her appearance her primary life skill), and this is how they turn out if they try to make a career out of it, due to all the sacrifices they made along the way (such as time they could have spent with kids or family or just invested in a healthy monogamous relationship).

Meanwhile, I've seen plenty of SBs have the absolute time of their life with the lifestyle, then decide fun time is over and its time for a boyfriend and career, and live happily ever after. I don't think that's a bad plan for life at all.

If she goes too far it might "spoil" her to the point where she has trouble forming healthy relationships, but it's up to all of us to prioritize our own lives. I find pussy addictive enough that it could have pulled me away from everything, but luckily I always had (apparently) a balanced _id_against_the_ego that helped remind me what was most important and has allowed me to maintain a real relationship with someone I really love. And if I found out I was dying tomorrow, it would be that relationship I would most thankful for, not all the pussy. Even if between all the self-pity of dying I found myself grinning at some of the memories. . LOL.

"Overpriced cum bucket" is funny but might be a little harsh for the transformation from sweet darling "amateurs" to pro-escorts. However, when a SB pulls any of the crap you mentioned, she is very soon in my rear view mirror. I have zero tolerance for a SB who thinks her time is more valuable than mine by showing up late or not promptly responding to communication. And, if she decides she deserves a raise, unless her performance has drastically improved (very highly unlikely), then it is time for a pink slip. I don't begrudge her thinking she is more valuable, but let someone else pay that tab.

If she's decided to be a pro escort, she's committed to a career of being exploited for her holes. I don't doubt the idea of being a cum bucket is offensive to some of them, and I certainly hope any SB's reading on don't misunderstand and think I'm using that term to describe most of the girls I've known (by a long shot). But a prostitute is in fact a cum receptacle by career choice. I'm not saying that's ALL she is as a human being -- I'm sure some sex workers are also great mothers and loving individuals. But they cannot say they aren't a spooge destination by profession and by choice. Some girls love exploitative talk aimed toward them as a turn on. I've had girls ask me to say shit and do shit to them that just doesn't come naturally to me at all. Lot of the feminist-oriented ones have told me they find it empowering to command to be treated like shit. Go figure.

[FTP1999]

Yet another dummy. That would be me - falls for it.

After years of being careful, one momentary lapse of reasoning and she got me. Dang.

Maybe someone here can learn from my mistake.

Signed.

Dumbass.

Details http://www.usasexguide.nl/forum/show...769&viewfull=1#post5901769.

[PartyTimeGuy]

While I agree about the initial euphoria of something new, in the scenario I described I feel the SB is taking the low road, because as someone who most likely visited her while traveling, we aren't around each other enough to get tired of each other.

Low road? I hear you. I had a sweet young thing who used to be happy with 100 a meet and now she wants 300 an hour! She had graduated from SB to high-priced escort. From a SD point of view this was a bad thing. But, from a SB point of view, she was moving up in the world.

Basically if I contact her six months down the road, I'm taking a risk that she's gained weight or has otherwise let herself go (which is what I'm paying for) while at the same time honoring my previous allowance commitment. I'm not going to say "oh by the way I'm getting girls for $150 instead of $250 so I need to give you less this time". I remain true to whatever I gave her before and won't even suggest giving less.

If anything she is the one that benefits the most by seeing me once every few months because she knows who she's fucking ahead of time and doesn't have to worry about meeting some psycho who might be out to do her harm.

That's definitely the SD point of view. The SB point of view is another matter. LOL.

It's the old symptom of give an inch and watch them take a mile. They know that because SDs are typically older, responsible, and unlike guys their age they date typically make good on follow up and doing what we say we are going to do, they exercise their right to be flighty and unreliable, both with attendance and pay.

Not saying they are all like that, just speaking of the ones who become overpriced cum buckets.

"Overpriced cum bucket" is funny but might be a little harsh for the transformation from sweet darling "amateurs" to pro-escorts. However, when a SB pulls any of the crap you mentioned, she is very soon in my rear view mirror. I have zero tolerance for a SB who thinks her time is more valuable than mine by showing up late or not promptly responding to communication. And, if she decides she deserves a raise, unless her performance has drastically improved (very highly unlikely), then it is time for a pink slip. I don't begrudge her thinking she is more valuable, but let someone else pay that tab.

[FarFarAway]

Glad to have catalyzed this discussion. I don't hear anyone defending the idea that there really are loser guys giving girls ridiculous allowances and screwing the market for the rest of us.

[OliverNP]

SBs are no different from all other human beings. When we experience anything for the first time, a new job, a new car, a new house, a new GF, a new SB, a new SD, it is fresh and different and we can revel in the initial novelty of it. After a while, the new smell wears off and we find it to be more tedious. Unless it continues to be immensely enjoyable, we start looking for something new again, or desire to have compensation for putting up with the same old same old.

SBs tire of SDs and want more dough to put up with the aggravation. SDs tire of SBs and want a new model. It is inevitable.

While I agree about the initial euphoria of something new, in the scenario I described I feel the SB is taking the low road, because as someone who most likely visited her while traveling, we aren't around each other enough to get tired of each other.

Basically if I contact her six months down the road, I'm taking a risk that she's gained weight or has otherwise let herself go (which is what I'm paying for) while at the same time honoring my previous allowance commitment. I'm not going to say "oh by the way I'm getting girls for $150 instead of $250 so I need to give you less this time". I remain true to whatever I gave her before and won't even suggest giving less.

If anything she is the one that benefits the most by seeing me once every few months because she knows who she's fucking ahead of time and doesn't have to worry about meeting some psycho who might be out to do her harm.

It's the old symptom of give an inch and watch them take a mile. They know that because SDs are typically older, responsible, and unlike guys their age they date typically make good on follow up and doing what we say we are going to do, they exercise their right to be flighty and unreliable, both with attendance and pay.

Not saying they are all like that, just speaking of the ones who become overpriced cum buckets.

[PartyTimeGuy]

... as best as I can tell the younger / newer girls just entering the lifestyle seem to vet who they see very carefully, choosing only guys they have some attraction to and entering the lifestyle more or less like any other form of online dating. At that stage, they aren't focused on how much they will perceive per visit, they are just looking for someone they like, and of course financial success is a huge factor in male attractiveness, so the richer the better. But mainly they want to come away with it not feeling like a hooker.

But over time they go in one of two directions. They either meet mister right (whether an SD or an age appropriate guy) and enter a relationship (or a series of relationships that pulls them out of sugaring), or they decide financial independence is more important to them and they start gravitating in that direction.

... I still look at pussy in economic terms and consider it a renewable resource, so there will always be a stream of new girls to replace the overpriced cum buckets.

SBs tire of SDs and want more dough to put up with the aggravation. SDs tire of SBs and want a new model. It is inevitable.

Pussy is definitely a "renewable resource. " There is plenty of it out there. I want what you want: a fresh new face who is a lot of fun and not just preoccupied with the cash. Fortunately the supply is virtually unlimited. There is a fresh face around every corner. Are they on sugar sites? Many say yes and find ways to re-prime the pump there. I say no and recruit all of mine in the wild. Whatever works for you, works for you. Are prices too high? For someone who is used to $30 SW BJs, a SB price is outrageous. But then there is quality to consider. I have experienced relative price stability for a very long time now. I can sometimes find a bargain for 100, a usual at 200 and a mint condition perfect gem for 300. And I change my SBs like I change the oil in my car. Eventually even the freshest new oil gets a bit sludgy. But there is plenty of new oil out there. All I need to do is take a drive, a walk, or just look around wherever I happen to be. I have 5 new SBs in my sights right now. I will share more details about the how and where later.

[OliverNP]

There's periodic talk on here about sucker guys who lack confidence and / or balls and are giving girls way too much $ and ruining the market for the rest of us. I wonder what evidence there is about this. ....

So, what is it about this site that has persistent postings about this scenario? It's almost like a conspiracy theory - 'birds aren't real'.

On a recurring basis in the past, I've known girls that enthusiastically spent the night with me after a night of wining and dining (which usually means getting fucked 3-4 times) without ever knowing or asking what I was going to give them the next day when I send them along, that were thrilled to get $300 for that and couldn't wait to see me again.

Then, 6 to 12 months later when I'm in their city again and shoot them a text, they say "oh I'd love to see you again. Buuuuuuut. Just so you know I'm getting $600 now" and they want to book a couple of hours like an escort / john situation.

I've tried to understand exactly how this process occurs, and as best as I can tell the younger / newer girls just entering the lifestyle seem to vet who they see very carefully, choosing only guys they have some attraction to and entering the lifestyle more or less like any other form of online dating. At that stage, they aren't focused on how much they will perceive per visit, they are just looking for someone they like, and of course financial success is a huge factor in male attractiveness, so the richer the better. But mainly they want to come away with it not feeling like a hooker.

But over time they go in one of two directions. They either meet mister right (whether an SD or an age appropriate guy) and enter a relationship (or a series of relationships that pulls them out of sugaring), or they decide financial independence is more important to them and they start gravitating in that direction.

That means caring less about who they fuck, and asking for increasingly high rates to fuck the older out of shape guys who have to pay more because of who they are, and at that point the girl increasingly becoming more or less an overpriced cum bucket that expects $600-800 an hour or whatever.

At the risk of igniting another car lease discussion (heh), I still look at pussy in economic terms and consider it a renewable resource, so there will always be a stream of new girls to replace the overpriced cum buckets.

So I'd have to say yes, because SDs are horny and too often think only with their dicks, pussy eventually gets overpriced because there will always be a point at which sexual desperation on the part of the SD finds an intersecting point with the financial desperation of the SB.

[Wysiwug]

There's periodic talk on here about sucker guys who lack confidence and / or balls and are giving girls way too much $ and ruining the market for the rest of us. I wonder what evidence there is about this. Certainly, girls are only too happy to tell prospects about the great big allowances they (or their close GFs) were given by past SDs, but I've read several scenarios here where a guy had factual knowledge to the contrary. Such as, he was already banging that close GF and was certain she wasn't getting the dough that his current POT said that the other girl was.

Really, what is the more likely scenario? That a girl on a sugar dating site is exaggerating in order to try to get a more lavish deal out of the guy she is currently negotiating with, or that in fact she once found a whale who was so bereft of self-respect (and filthy rich), he felt the only way he could get a girl in bed was to give her a grand a pop. How often does no ego and a big wallet go together?

I am sure there are a few girls on seeking who have a history of being a kept woman, and they are pretty obvious from their profiles. Likely older, late 20's to 30's, model quality looks, sophisticated writing. I would usually skip over those anyway. I don't mean to exclude the possibility that there might have been someone who was getting literally total support from a guy, I might have even briefly had a relationship w / one such. I posted a picture of her not long ago, and she told me as much. And it seemed credible. It is just that this situation is about as rare as SDs who are 'whales', and girls who sit around and wait for those kinds of deals could truly wait forever.

So, what is it about this site that has persistent postings about this scenario? It's almost like a conspiracy theory - 'birds aren't real'.

Good one Far. Yep "bird aren't real", actually birds you think you see flying in the sky are actually government surveillance drones. Pretty satirical, isn't it? LOL.

[FarFarAway]

There's periodic talk on here about sucker guys who lack confidence and / or balls and are giving girls way too much $ and ruining the market for the rest of us. I wonder what evidence there is about this. Certainly, girls are only too happy to tell prospects about the great big allowances they (or their close GFs) were given by past SDs, but I've read several scenarios here where a guy had factual knowledge to the contrary. Such as, he was already banging that close GF and was certain she wasn't getting the dough that his current POT said that the other girl was.

Really, what is the more likely scenario? That a girl on a sugar dating site is exaggerating in order to try to get a more lavish deal out of the guy she is currently negotiating with, or that in fact she once found a whale who was so bereft of self-respect (and filthy rich), he felt the only way he could get a girl in bed was to give her a grand a pop. How often does no ego and a big wallet go together?

I am sure there are a few girls on seeking who have a history of being a kept woman, and they are pretty obvious from their profiles. Likely older, late 20's to 30's, model quality looks, sophisticated writing. I would usually skip over those anyway. I don't mean to exclude the possibility that there might have been someone who was getting literally total support from a guy, I might have even briefly had a relationship w / one such. I posted a picture of her not long ago, and she told me as much. And it seemed credible. It is just that this situation is about as rare as SDs who are 'whales', and girls who sit around and wait for those kinds of deals could truly wait forever.

So, what is it about this site that has persistent postings about this scenario? It's almost like a conspiracy theory - 'birds aren't real'.

[FarFarAway]

When I first saw the post, I thought PTG was talking about something I've noticed and posted on before. The elasticity of SB pussy itself, so so much greater than women of my peer age. One of the many reasons I am addicted to the sugar bowl, and can't envision a scenario where I'd not want to be seeing a younger woman from SA.

[RogerOver]

I do lease a BMW SAV as a company vehicle; <snipped>.

I did not intend to hijack this thread to have a leasing discussion, but since you replied with your thoughts on leasing, I felt I should respond. Also, the original poster implied that most BMW drivers are not in the 1% which may or may not be correct. Maybe some of you mongers can learn a thing or 2 about leasing and save enough to pay for taking a lady to the FC.<snipped>.

It seems to be more about BMWs than anything else. But, it's always been true that leasing can be a great move if you have a business. I've done it. I'm definitely in what is considered the 1%, and I do not drive a traditional "luxury" car, although I'd offer that it has all the bells and whistles I need. And I lease because I have a couple of businesses.

I don't try to save money on my car to fund fucking hookers (or SBs). Regarding pussy, either I can afford it, or I can't. It turns out I can, so I go with that. The pandemic has softened things in terms of travel and opportunity, but my usual spend per year on pussy and related fun is between $50K-$75K. That's way more than I spend on cars.