"Sugarbabies" / "Arrangements" Amateurs or Not?

[PartyTimeGuy]

While I agree about the initial euphoria of something new, in the scenario I described I feel the SB is taking the low road, because as someone who most likely visited her while traveling, we aren't around each other enough to get tired of each other.

Low road? I hear you. I had a sweet young thing who used to be happy with 100 a meet and now she wants 300 an hour! She had graduated from SB to high-priced escort. From a SD point of view this was a bad thing. But, from a SB point of view, she was moving up in the world.

Basically if I contact her six months down the road, I'm taking a risk that she's gained weight or has otherwise let herself go (which is what I'm paying for) while at the same time honoring my previous allowance commitment. I'm not going to say "oh by the way I'm getting girls for $150 instead of $250 so I need to give you less this time". I remain true to whatever I gave her before and won't even suggest giving less.

If anything she is the one that benefits the most by seeing me once every few months because she knows who she's fucking ahead of time and doesn't have to worry about meeting some psycho who might be out to do her harm.

That's definitely the SD point of view. The SB point of view is another matter. LOL.

It's the old symptom of give an inch and watch them take a mile. They know that because SDs are typically older, responsible, and unlike guys their age they date typically make good on follow up and doing what we say we are going to do, they exercise their right to be flighty and unreliable, both with attendance and pay.

Not saying they are all like that, just speaking of the ones who become overpriced cum buckets.

"Overpriced cum bucket" is funny but might be a little harsh for the transformation from sweet darling "amateurs" to pro-escorts. However, when a SB pulls any of the crap you mentioned, she is very soon in my rear view mirror. I have zero tolerance for a SB who thinks her time is more valuable than mine by showing up late or not promptly responding to communication. And, if she decides she deserves a raise, unless her performance has drastically improved (very highly unlikely), then it is time for a pink slip. I don't begrudge her thinking she is more valuable, but let someone else pay that tab.

[FarFarAway]

Glad to have catalyzed this discussion. I don't hear anyone defending the idea that there really are loser guys giving girls ridiculous allowances and screwing the market for the rest of us.

[OliverNP]

SBs are no different from all other human beings. When we experience anything for the first time, a new job, a new car, a new house, a new GF, a new SB, a new SD, it is fresh and different and we can revel in the initial novelty of it. After a while, the new smell wears off and we find it to be more tedious. Unless it continues to be immensely enjoyable, we start looking for something new again, or desire to have compensation for putting up with the same old same old.

SBs tire of SDs and want more dough to put up with the aggravation. SDs tire of SBs and want a new model. It is inevitable.

While I agree about the initial euphoria of something new, in the scenario I described I feel the SB is taking the low road, because as someone who most likely visited her while traveling, we aren't around each other enough to get tired of each other.

Basically if I contact her six months down the road, I'm taking a risk that she's gained weight or has otherwise let herself go (which is what I'm paying for) while at the same time honoring my previous allowance commitment. I'm not going to say "oh by the way I'm getting girls for $150 instead of $250 so I need to give you less this time". I remain true to whatever I gave her before and won't even suggest giving less.

If anything she is the one that benefits the most by seeing me once every few months because she knows who she's fucking ahead of time and doesn't have to worry about meeting some psycho who might be out to do her harm.

It's the old symptom of give an inch and watch them take a mile. They know that because SDs are typically older, responsible, and unlike guys their age they date typically make good on follow up and doing what we say we are going to do, they exercise their right to be flighty and unreliable, both with attendance and pay.

Not saying they are all like that, just speaking of the ones who become overpriced cum buckets.

[PartyTimeGuy]

... as best as I can tell the younger / newer girls just entering the lifestyle seem to vet who they see very carefully, choosing only guys they have some attraction to and entering the lifestyle more or less like any other form of online dating. At that stage, they aren't focused on how much they will perceive per visit, they are just looking for someone they like, and of course financial success is a huge factor in male attractiveness, so the richer the better. But mainly they want to come away with it not feeling like a hooker.

But over time they go in one of two directions. They either meet mister right (whether an SD or an age appropriate guy) and enter a relationship (or a series of relationships that pulls them out of sugaring), or they decide financial independence is more important to them and they start gravitating in that direction.

... I still look at pussy in economic terms and consider it a renewable resource, so there will always be a stream of new girls to replace the overpriced cum buckets.

SBs tire of SDs and want more dough to put up with the aggravation. SDs tire of SBs and want a new model. It is inevitable.

Pussy is definitely a "renewable resource. " There is plenty of it out there. I want what you want: a fresh new face who is a lot of fun and not just preoccupied with the cash. Fortunately the supply is virtually unlimited. There is a fresh face around every corner. Are they on sugar sites? Many say yes and find ways to re-prime the pump there. I say no and recruit all of mine in the wild. Whatever works for you, works for you. Are prices too high? For someone who is used to $30 SW BJs, a SB price is outrageous. But then there is quality to consider. I have experienced relative price stability for a very long time now. I can sometimes find a bargain for 100, a usual at 200 and a mint condition perfect gem for 300. And I change my SBs like I change the oil in my car. Eventually even the freshest new oil gets a bit sludgy. But there is plenty of new oil out there. All I need to do is take a drive, a walk, or just look around wherever I happen to be. I have 5 new SBs in my sights right now. I will share more details about the how and where later.

[OliverNP]

There's periodic talk on here about sucker guys who lack confidence and / or balls and are giving girls way too much $ and ruining the market for the rest of us. I wonder what evidence there is about this. ....

So, what is it about this site that has persistent postings about this scenario? It's almost like a conspiracy theory - 'birds aren't real'.

On a recurring basis in the past, I've known girls that enthusiastically spent the night with me after a night of wining and dining (which usually means getting fucked 3-4 times) without ever knowing or asking what I was going to give them the next day when I send them along, that were thrilled to get $300 for that and couldn't wait to see me again.

Then, 6 to 12 months later when I'm in their city again and shoot them a text, they say "oh I'd love to see you again. Buuuuuuut. Just so you know I'm getting $600 now" and they want to book a couple of hours like an escort / john situation.

I've tried to understand exactly how this process occurs, and as best as I can tell the younger / newer girls just entering the lifestyle seem to vet who they see very carefully, choosing only guys they have some attraction to and entering the lifestyle more or less like any other form of online dating. At that stage, they aren't focused on how much they will perceive per visit, they are just looking for someone they like, and of course financial success is a huge factor in male attractiveness, so the richer the better. But mainly they want to come away with it not feeling like a hooker.

But over time they go in one of two directions. They either meet mister right (whether an SD or an age appropriate guy) and enter a relationship (or a series of relationships that pulls them out of sugaring), or they decide financial independence is more important to them and they start gravitating in that direction.

That means caring less about who they fuck, and asking for increasingly high rates to fuck the older out of shape guys who have to pay more because of who they are, and at that point the girl increasingly becoming more or less an overpriced cum bucket that expects $600-800 an hour or whatever.

At the risk of igniting another car lease discussion (heh), I still look at pussy in economic terms and consider it a renewable resource, so there will always be a stream of new girls to replace the overpriced cum buckets.

So I'd have to say yes, because SDs are horny and too often think only with their dicks, pussy eventually gets overpriced because there will always be a point at which sexual desperation on the part of the SD finds an intersecting point with the financial desperation of the SB.

[Wysiwug]

There's periodic talk on here about sucker guys who lack confidence and / or balls and are giving girls way too much $ and ruining the market for the rest of us. I wonder what evidence there is about this. Certainly, girls are only too happy to tell prospects about the great big allowances they (or their close GFs) were given by past SDs, but I've read several scenarios here where a guy had factual knowledge to the contrary. Such as, he was already banging that close GF and was certain she wasn't getting the dough that his current POT said that the other girl was.

Really, what is the more likely scenario? That a girl on a sugar dating site is exaggerating in order to try to get a more lavish deal out of the guy she is currently negotiating with, or that in fact she once found a whale who was so bereft of self-respect (and filthy rich), he felt the only way he could get a girl in bed was to give her a grand a pop. How often does no ego and a big wallet go together?

I am sure there are a few girls on seeking who have a history of being a kept woman, and they are pretty obvious from their profiles. Likely older, late 20's to 30's, model quality looks, sophisticated writing. I would usually skip over those anyway. I don't mean to exclude the possibility that there might have been someone who was getting literally total support from a guy, I might have even briefly had a relationship w / one such. I posted a picture of her not long ago, and she told me as much. And it seemed credible. It is just that this situation is about as rare as SDs who are 'whales', and girls who sit around and wait for those kinds of deals could truly wait forever.

So, what is it about this site that has persistent postings about this scenario? It's almost like a conspiracy theory - 'birds aren't real'.

Good one Far. Yep "bird aren't real", actually birds you think you see flying in the sky are actually government surveillance drones. Pretty satirical, isn't it? LOL.

[FarFarAway]

There's periodic talk on here about sucker guys who lack confidence and / or balls and are giving girls way too much $ and ruining the market for the rest of us. I wonder what evidence there is about this. Certainly, girls are only too happy to tell prospects about the great big allowances they (or their close GFs) were given by past SDs, but I've read several scenarios here where a guy had factual knowledge to the contrary. Such as, he was already banging that close GF and was certain she wasn't getting the dough that his current POT said that the other girl was.

Really, what is the more likely scenario? That a girl on a sugar dating site is exaggerating in order to try to get a more lavish deal out of the guy she is currently negotiating with, or that in fact she once found a whale who was so bereft of self-respect (and filthy rich), he felt the only way he could get a girl in bed was to give her a grand a pop. How often does no ego and a big wallet go together?

I am sure there are a few girls on seeking who have a history of being a kept woman, and they are pretty obvious from their profiles. Likely older, late 20's to 30's, model quality looks, sophisticated writing. I would usually skip over those anyway. I don't mean to exclude the possibility that there might have been someone who was getting literally total support from a guy, I might have even briefly had a relationship w / one such. I posted a picture of her not long ago, and she told me as much. And it seemed credible. It is just that this situation is about as rare as SDs who are 'whales', and girls who sit around and wait for those kinds of deals could truly wait forever.

So, what is it about this site that has persistent postings about this scenario? It's almost like a conspiracy theory - 'birds aren't real'.

[FarFarAway]

When I first saw the post, I thought PTG was talking about something I've noticed and posted on before. The elasticity of SB pussy itself, so so much greater than women of my peer age. One of the many reasons I am addicted to the sugar bowl, and can't envision a scenario where I'd not want to be seeing a younger woman from SA.

[RogerOver]

I do lease a BMW SAV as a company vehicle; <snipped>.

I did not intend to hijack this thread to have a leasing discussion, but since you replied with your thoughts on leasing, I felt I should respond. Also, the original poster implied that most BMW drivers are not in the 1% which may or may not be correct. Maybe some of you mongers can learn a thing or 2 about leasing and save enough to pay for taking a lady to the FC.<snipped>.

It seems to be more about BMWs than anything else. But, it's always been true that leasing can be a great move if you have a business. I've done it. I'm definitely in what is considered the 1%, and I do not drive a traditional "luxury" car, although I'd offer that it has all the bells and whistles I need. And I lease because I have a couple of businesses.

I don't try to save money on my car to fund fucking hookers (or SBs). Regarding pussy, either I can afford it, or I can't. It turns out I can, so I go with that. The pandemic has softened things in terms of travel and opportunity, but my usual spend per year on pussy and related fun is between $50K-$75K. That's way more than I spend on cars.

[PartyTimeGuy]

In the study of economics, luxury items have extremely high price elasticity, meaning demand for them drops substantially during economically lean times. As you pointed out, pussy is a luxury.... {In a recession}Company layoffs and so forth tend to have a fear-inducing affect that reduces consumer confidence, and I believe such an event would result in a pull back of spending by many SDs and simultaneously induce a lack of income crisis for girls in the typical SB age demographic.

So, while I don't claim to have a crystal ball, I believe that would amount to (A) more girls needing help and (B) less SDs willing to throw money out the window to get laid.

Wow! The price elasticity of pussy would be an interesting academic exercise in Micro-Economics that I wish my Econ 102 professor had given to me.

What will happen to the prices of SBs during a recession? As you aptly noted, SBs have a high price elasticity of demand. Past a certain point, the more a SB charges, the far fewer clients she can expect. But what is that point? And what does recession do to supply and demand? Does it drive some SDs out of the market because they can no longer afford it? More SBs would likely "work" during a recession. Especially those who were already on the fringe of considering this. More SB supply would logically drive prices down and less SD demand would also drive prices down, but would this actually happen? In theory, perhaps. But this is actually a very complex situation. Firstly, we haven't even considered yet the quality of the pussy. We aren't exactly talking about equally satisfying and acceptable sacks of sugar. And, secondly there is both a price elasticity of demand for pussy as well as a price elasticity of supply to consider (lower prices could mean fewer SBs would be willing to be available). Not to mention almost no data to support a calculation of either. So at best it is a conjecture.

So here is my best guess. Currently at $100 a meet (of course, time would also be a factor) there would be almost unlimited demand, but limited supply. Supply would increase and demand decrease almost on a straight line, with a midpoint of $250. After that, demand would get considerably slower and supply considerably faster, until, at about $500 and higher, there would be almost unlimited supply, but not much demand. This is, of course, a very rough guesstimate, with absolutely no proof. Would this graph shift to the left in a recession? OMG! I have a headache. LOL.

[Passport4]

I do lease a BMW SAV as a company vehicle; I don't know much about this because I pay someone to figure it out for me, but what I do know; There are no tax advantages for personally leasing a car (not sure why anybody would do that because at the end of the day (1) lease payment ends up higher than a simple 36/ mo. Car loan payment (2) at the end of the lease term limit you don't own the car), unless you are self-employed using or a business owner. Whereas a business owner can claim the lease payments expense, maintenance and operating expenses, milage on your tax returns. I think? The IRS will allow a portion of lease ownership to be depreciated. The BMW I had before the one I lease now, I negotiated to purchase it at the end of the lease term at $0. 80 on the dollar below retail sales price and flipped it for 5 K gain.

It's my opinion, I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around pussy being a commodity and (vs) Luxury. No matter what your economic status, it's all relative to what is affordable. You are going to pay for it one way or another. And yes, I like variety, whether its free (having and SO or GF depends if she is high maintenance or not) or online shopping no matter how you look at it, pussy is pussy. I'm pretty much done with the on-line SB dating, although there are many variables in SB searching off-line, but on-line basically setting up a paid profile and account, finding an emotionally stable chick, the back-and-forth communication, negotiations, meet and greet. Ect, ect. And if she is not hosting renting a decent economical non-bed bug infested FC tends to be just to frigging time consuming. The only advantage is with the on-line SB shopping is stumbling upon a UTR low volume pro. I doubt very seriously those POT SB's had a real SD whale paying bucu $ for a meet and greet. They are just full of crap and are fishing. I have had that happen a few times and told the POT that I'm interviewing them for a mutually beneficial relationship have a nice day if you don't want to meet to discuss an arrangement.

In my world time=money and the time spending managing mutable POT's to possible fruition doesn't compute as good commodity or luxury investment when you can go to Tryst, PD, Eros or an agency (or low budget gamble with an ACS) to get lots variety and instant gratification without all the drama.

I did not intend to hijack this thread to have a leasing discussion, but since you replied with your thoughts on leasing, I felt I should respond. Also, the original poster implied that most BMW drivers are not in the 1% which may or may not be correct. Maybe some of you mongers can learn a thing or 2 about leasing and save enough to pay for taking a lady to the FC.

You are correct about there being no tax advantages of a personal lease. I began leasing in the early 90's when I would take a 2 year lease and get a new car every year. One year was mine, and the next year was my wife's. A 2 year lease is not the best decision as the car does the most depreciation then and therefore the residual drops the most in the first 24 months making the payment higher. But there were advantages of doing this. You could actually get equity in the vehicle as it would be worth more than what the residual was. At that time which was in the earlier days of personal leasing, BMW allowed you to buy the car at the residual, but you could jump the title and sell it to someone without you actually registering it and paying the sales tax. All you had to do was some paperwork and see that they got their money from either you or the buyer. So you could make profit which made up for the higher monthly payment. And if you did what I would do and order a car to arrive as soon as the new model was released, your car would be 24 months old at time of lease end, but the car would only be 1 model year old. This worked for about 4 vehicles and then BMW stopped letting you jump the title.

When BMW made a bad calculation on the 6 series residual, the car was worth more than $10,000 less than the residual, so you would not want to buy it off lease. But working with a good dealer, they got to be able to buy it for less from BMW and I actually bought my own car off lease for $10,000 less than the residual. Imagine if you owned the car or had financed it and the value was $10,000 less overnight. And I never actually delivered the car to the dealer as they just did a paperwork transaction. (This happened recently on the 8 series as BMW dropped the MSRP on the 8 for 2022 so many who bought the 2021 will be burned) Well BMW in the last couple years closed that loophole too. The dealer can buy the car off lease and it is based on auction prices so it is usually much less than the residual. (may not be the case today due to the shortage of used cars) But if the dealer sells it back to the original owner, they can only make a few hundred dollars instead of several thousands selling to a new person as BMW will penalize them.

I feel that I am knowledgeable on buying versus leasing and have done both on a lot of BMW's since those early days. And if you can afford to either buy or lease, there is no one correct answer. That is why I crunch the numbers on each vehicle as it all depends on the situation at the time of vehicle purchase and what the factory is offering. One thing that I do know is that you can never beat the dealer. They are always looking at every angle to get you for a few hundred extra especially many dealers marking up the money factor over what the actual BMW money factor is. It only adds maybe $20 a month to the payment, but that is between $240 to $360 depending on the lease time. This is additional profit to them and a loss to you that could pay for one romp in the FC.

[Wysiwug]

The fact that so many BMW's and other cars are leased has to do with the monthly payment being lower than financing the car. The manufacturers have been subsidizing leases for many years in various ways. A lease payment is made up of the MSRP, the negotiated price, the residual percentage (what the buyout / value is at lease end) and a money factor (interest rate).

The manufacturers can offer lease cash which can lower the price of the car. They can also raise or lower the residual value. When the residual is high, the payment is less. Occasionally, they miscalculate and the residual is too high which is good for the consumer, but not the manufacturer. Also they can raise or lower the money factor. A lower money factor is a lower interest rate.

Due to the current shortage of cars, many of the manufacturers are no longer aggressive in supporting a lease and there is a lot of sticker shock when people's leases end and they want to go into a new lease. Because of this, a lot of people are buying out their old lease, especially since they have driven less in the last few years. This in turn has caused a shortage in good used cars coming off of lease and makes for higher prices of used cars.

I have both a 2021 and 2022 higher end BMW. I leased the 2021 when it first came out in 2020 as I crunched the numbers and with lease support, the payment was less than what I was paying for the identical 2018 model that I turned in. I would have purchased the 2018 as it was extremely low mileage, but BMW would not negotiate a lower buyout and the buyout price was more than the car was worth both wholesale and retail. On the 2022, I crunched the numbers and leasing did not make sense. As I had the money, I paid cash. I calculated that based on the residual they figured in a lease, that the car had to depreciate an additional $10,000 for me to have made a mistake. Since the residual was low, I felt that this would probably not happen. Also, unless you invest the cash and are a winner, you cannot make money just sitting on the cash or putting it into savings. Whether I am right or wrong on the 2022, only time will tell. But I do like not being on a lease where you have to make a decision at lease end instead of making a decision on a vehicle whenever you want to.

With this said, I will not pay a ridiculous price for Pussy and will wait till rates come down. I too believe they will.

I do lease a BMW SAV as a company vehicle; I don't know much about this because I pay someone to figure it out for me, but what I do know; There are no tax advantages for personally leasing a car (not sure why anybody would do that because at the end of the day (1) lease payment ends up higher than a simple 36/ mo. Car loan payment (2) at the end of the lease term limit you don't own the car), unless you are self-employed using or a business owner. Whereas a business owner can claim the lease payments expense, maintenance and operating expenses, milage on your tax returns. I think? The IRS will allow a portion of lease ownership to be depreciated. The BMW I had before the one I lease now, I negotiated to purchase it at the end of the lease term at $0. 80 on the dollar below retail sales price and flipped it for 5 K gain.

It's my opinion, I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around pussy being a commodity and (vs) Luxury. No matter what your economic status, it's all relative to what is affordable. You are going to pay for it one way or another. And yes, I like variety, whether its free (having and SO or GF depends if she is high maintenance or not) or online shopping no matter how you look at it, pussy is pussy. I'm pretty much done with the on-line SB dating, although there are many variables in SB searching off-line, but on-line basically setting up a paid profile and account, finding an emotionally stable chick, the back-and-forth communication, negotiations, meet and greet. Ect, ect. And if she is not hosting renting a decent economical non-bed bug infested FC tends to be just to frigging time consuming. The only advantage is with the on-line SB shopping is stumbling upon a UTR low volume pro. I doubt very seriously those POT SB's had a real SD whale paying bucu $ for a meet and greet. They are just full of crap and are fishing. I have had that happen a few times and told the POT that I'm interviewing them for a mutually beneficial relationship have a nice day if you don't want to meet to discuss an arrangement.

In my world time=money and the time spending managing mutable POT's to possible fruition doesn't compute as good commodity or luxury investment when you can go to Tryst, PD, Eros or an agency (or low budget gamble with an ACS) to get lots variety and instant gratification without all the drama.

[DoggieFan]

So I've been seeing this one SB for a while now and she started to add a lot of rules. We went from BBBJ to CBJ, and just limiting other activates while asking for money for "medical help for a procedure" which leads me to to think of one thing that involves BBFS / CIP or I might be overthinking it. Her seeking profile for reference, I know a few here have written about her, and I have as well. I can't help but think I might be getting played, has anyone else had this happen with a SB. Is she doing these same rules with others or am I getting the short end of the arrangement.

https://members.seeking.com/member/9...8-0ac3f96f53dc

Yes, you are over thinking. No idea why CBJ but I believe she may have had a brief time period her birth control had expired & she was being careful. The "procedure" I'm guessing was the thing that goes under the skin that provides three years of protection.

I know she has lost some regulars so she's probably looking for a few good men. As soon as she does she'll delete the long on SA again, I would bet. It's been well over a year since it was up before, I believe she lived in Charlottesville when she first joined, then moved to the Richmond area?

[Passport4]

Eh, IMHO pussy is both a commodity and a luxury. High end Eros & Tryst type girls are the Luxury stuff. The rest, SBs included are a commodity. As the marginal and unknowledgeable players get washed out of the game when a recession happens, then the supply of Daddies will shrink and a girl can either "have a sale" or go without extra funds.
.

Oh and on the luxury car thingie. Apparently 75% of the BMWs that leave a lot in any year are under a "fLease" so not high rollers buying them.

The fact that so many BMW's and other cars are leased has to do with the monthly payment being lower than financing the car. The manufacturers have been subsidizing leases for many years in various ways. A lease payment is made up of the MSRP, the negotiated price, the residual percentage (what the buyout / value is at lease end) and a money factor (interest rate).

The manufacturers can offer lease cash which can lower the price of the car. They can also raise or lower the residual value. When the residual is high, the payment is less. Occasionally, they miscalculate and the residual is too high which is good for the consumer, but not the manufacturer. Also they can raise or lower the money factor. A lower money factor is a lower interest rate.

Due to the current shortage of cars, many of the manufacturers are no longer aggressive in supporting a lease and there is a lot of sticker shock when people's leases end and they want to go into a new lease. Because of this, a lot of people are buying out their old lease, especially since they have driven less in the last few years. This in turn has caused a shortage in good used cars coming off of lease and makes for higher prices of used cars.

I have both a 2021 and 2022 higher end BMW. I leased the 2021 when it first came out in 2020 as I crunched the numbers and with lease support, the payment was less than what I was paying for the identical 2018 model that I turned in. I would have purchased the 2018 as it was extremely low mileage, but BMW would not negotiate a lower buyout and the buyout price was more than the car was worth both wholesale and retail. On the 2022, I crunched the numbers and leasing did not make sense. As I had the money, I paid cash. I calculated that based on the residual they figured in a lease, that the car had to depreciate an additional $10,000 for me to have made a mistake. Since the residual was low, I felt that this would probably not happen. Also, unless you invest the cash and are a winner, you cannot make money just sitting on the cash or putting it into savings. Whether I am right or wrong on the 2022, only time will tell. But I do like not being on a lease where you have to make a decision at lease end instead of making a decision on a vehicle whenever you want to.

With this said, I will not pay a ridiculous price for Pussy and will wait till rates come down. I too believe they will.

[OliverNP]

Oh and on the luxury car thingie. Apparently 75% of the BMWs that leave a lot in any year are under a "fLease" so not high rollers buying them.

I can certainly believe that. I never got the allure of leasing personally, it seems to me like giving too much control over the financial situation to someone else and the lease payments aren't typically THAT much less than financing.

I bought an expensive foreign car right before the pandemic hit, paid cash. Some friends were razzing me about depreciation, but I love the car and many of the premium options I got on it have since been removed from the menu on a new vehicle because of supply chain issues - can't even get this car any more. Those who leased got extra-fucked I guess. I'll probably keep it longer than I originally expected, it's still barely got any miles because my job & travel situation changed with COVID. I wonder how many dudes leased and never even drove their cars for the amount of miles they pre-paid for.