News and Media Reports

[JmSuttr]

I would never use an agency or any of these "crapshoots" where the women are foreign, cannot speak English, and are housed in some sketchy location. That reeks of trafficking even if it isn't. And why wouldn't I prefer to see high quality women with whom I can relate and form a legitimate (albeit short) connection with? These "crapshoots" gross me out.

In light of this recent news, I do wonder: Are there any documented cases of LE going after clients of busted agencies? Discovered via text messages, emails, calls, etc. If those messages contain nothing explicit and only mentions of companionship in exchange for gifts (or even less than that), is there enough for the state to question, detain, or prosecute a legitimate case?

I absolutely agree that visiting an agency, crapshoot or otherwise, puts you at higher risk of getting entangled in a real or pseudo-trafficking investigation. How messy it could be depends on a lot of factors and I can't think of any specific examples at the moment. While the Ashley Madison hack and the Kraft AMP case are of a different nature, both do show what can happen to information that was thought to be private. And LE has a history of leaking info whenever it suits them, especially with celebrities or when they want to apply pressure to a defendant.

So, IMHO, the more identifying info you give to a provider, indie or agency, the more LE has to work with if they get arrested. I've talked to independents who have been busted and LE often goes through their phones and intimidates them into giving up email passwords, client lists, etc. So the use of a burner phone and email is always a wise precaution to take.

All that being said, a truly independent provider is less if a risk if only because it's harder for LE to spin their activity as trafficking. But, as long as the provider is truly independent, I don't think it matters whether she charges 200 per hour or 500. In fact, the higher-priced providers might be more likely to save client info while the lower-priced women might simply delete, forget, and move on. And a truly independent provider is more likely to be charged with only misdemeanor prostitution charges, which tends to limit what LE can do.

FWIW, my thoughts are that any info a client sends is out there forever and out of his control. Providers have all sorts of reasons why they need identifying info but I'm not persuaded. The hobby has operated on an anonymous basis for a long time and there's no reason that needs to change. I don't need (or want) to know a provider's real name, etc. And I don't want them to know mine.

[Jacobs Patrick]

I would never use an agency or any of these "crapshoots" where the women are foreign, cannot speak English, and are housed in some sketchy location. That reeks of trafficking even if it isn't. And why wouldn't I prefer to see high quality women with whom I can relate and form a legitimate (albeit short) connection with? These "crapshoots" gross me out.

In light of this recent news, I do wonder: Are there any documented cases of LE going after clients of busted agencies? Discovered via text messages, emails, calls, etc. If those messages contain nothing explicit and only mentions of companionship in exchange for gifts (or even less than that), is there enough for the state to question, detain, or prosecute a legitimate case?

I think that the overuse of the word, "trafficking", has been adequately been discussed here. Regarding the use of text messages, emails, calls relating to subsequent busts is highly unlikely. Cops take the easiest route possible. Look at the MoCo case, the cops just watched and questioned the johns as they came out. No mention of an UC. No reason for complicated police tactics when low hanging fruit is this easy to get, unless underage situations.

Taking it a bit further, I would suggest the sugar babies are the safest, but require way too much work for me.

[Deranged]

I would never use an agency or any of these "crapshoots" where the women are foreign, cannot speak English, and are housed in some sketchy location. That reeks of trafficking even if it isn't. And why wouldn't I prefer to see high quality women with whom I can relate and form a legitimate (albeit short) connection with? These "crapshoots" gross me out.

In light of this recent news, I do wonder: Are there any documented cases of LE going after clients of busted agencies? Discovered via text messages, emails, calls, etc. If those messages contain nothing explicit and only mentions of companionship in exchange for gifts (or even less than that), is there enough for the state to question, detain, or prosecute a legitimate case?

[RustyMuffler]

I posted this in the MoCo forum, but it doesn't hurt to say it here too:

Law enforcement officials can ask people questions about anything when they pull someone over for a traffic stop. If you are asked about any incriminating behavior, just keep your mouth shut and do not incriminate yourself. It is always the state's responsibility to prove a case against you. Do not help them!

Also, do not lie to them. That in itself is a crime. So don't try to outsmart them. You do not know what info they already have or know. Be polite, yet firm, and tell them you do not have anything to say about anything other than what the traffic infraction is about. If the questions keep up, it will make you nervous, but try to keep your cool and ask them why they are asking these questions.

If they won't say why, they are not going to arrest you. So ask them if you are under arrest or being detained for something specific. As long as you do not give them anything, they should not keep you held up for too long. The officer may ball you out for what they believe you did. Again, just stay calm and do not react to it.

They should allow you to leave if you don't give them anything. And if they don't. You of course have the right to remain silent. And if they do arrest you, don't forget you have a right to legal counsel. So do not aanswer questions until after you have had a chance to meet with a defense lawyer.

The acronym you will see around here is STFU. Any guesses? It means Shut The F# Up.

The story indicates several mongers spilled the beans to police. Why? Fortunately I never visited the Rockville location.

So far I haven't seen any indication of similar police activity against the ACS in Virginia, but who knows what will happen when new officials elected earlier this month take office at the beginning of 2020.

[Tom McAn]

https://fox5dc.com/news/montgomery-c...afficking-ring

The story indicates several mongers spilled the beans to police. Why? Fortunately I never visited the Rockville location.

So far I haven't seen any indication of similar police activity against the ACS in Virginia, but who knows what will happen when new officials elected earlier this month take office at the beginning of 2020.

[JmSuttr]

https://fox5dc.com/news/montgomery-c...afficking-ring

Just going from the info in this specific article, there's nothing reported that didn't previously fall under the generic definition of prostitution (in this case, with a pimp). But now everything is trafficking by default. And why that's a concern for every hobbyist is because the "trafficking" label is pretty easy to stick on individual clients. And once that label is applied it's a long and nasty road ahead to try to defend yourself.

[Kijimuna]

https://fox5dc.com/news/montgomery-c...afficking-ring

[JmSuttr]

https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3803328

https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/...ntown-san.html

I have no way of verifying if the details in the articles are true but, if they are, then trafficking is an accurate description of what was going on. And the second article shows that it's not just a hobby-related problem.

Real trafficking is a scourge that needs to be stamped out and I don't think anyone would have an issue with LE efforts to that end. But the practice, by LE and their media enablers, of broadly expanding the definition of trafficking to cover consensual adult activity is a problem. And it's not just a problem for hobbyists but, because the same tactics can be applied to other activities, also for anyone concerned about individual liberty.

[JmSuttr]

Speaking with a Virginia vice cop not too long age he basically said the rules have changed now. When you meet a girl in a room and do a "cop check" that means nothing. They can touch you and using paypal or cashapp etc is like using a credit card. It's a perfect paper trail for the cops. The judges go along with it. Who can afford to appeal it? I stick with well reviewed providers only these days.

If you look at the "new normal" for trafficking investigations and arrests, they all involve multiple providers. Whether AMPs, agencies, or ACS places, LE doesn't need much in the way of justification to make (pseudo) trafficking claims.

The one type of provider who has (so far) avoided the trafficking label is the true independent who is of legal age. Since she works for herself, and keeps all the money she makes, LE can't make the case that she's being coerced or pressured. Maybe some new wrinkle will surface in the future but, for now, only traditional anti-prostitution laws apply. So, while there's no such thing as a risk-free hobby activity, at least seeing a true (self-managed) indie should keep you out of the reach of any trafficking investigation.

[Member #6313]

You're absolutely correct that actual trafficking requires something more than just prostitution. I'm not a legal expert in the field but, from everything I've heard and seen, it requires some kind of coercion or intimidation or underage participants. Adult women who are voluntarily and willingly selling sexual services are not trafficking victims. And that's true even if they travel or are transported across state lines.

But, just like we saw with the Robert Kraft AMP bust in Florida, there's absolutely no downside for LE in calling everything trafficking, even if no trafficking charges are ever filed and no trafficking convictions are ever obtained.

And that's one possible reason why we haven't seen a big deal made of this in the media. If it's now the "new normal" to label anything associated with prostitution as trafficking, then stories about garden-variety (pseudo) trafficking become less of a big deal.

IMHO, the best way to stay safe in this new environment is to see verified Indies who you absolutely know are adults and working for themselves.

Speaking with a Virginia vice cop not too long age he basically said the rules have changed now. When you meet a girl in a room and do a "cop check" that means nothing. They can touch you and using paypal or cashapp etc is like using a credit card. It's a perfect paper trail for the cops. The judges go along with it. Who can afford to appeal it? I stick with well reviewed providers only these days.

[EnderPete]

They moved sometime in the spring or summer. I had never been to the new location.

Makes sense then, last time I went was early this year.

[Shinshi]

That sucks about LF as I really liked them better than the AMPs around here.

Agreed, I had a wonderful dream about Nancy a couple months back and was hoping to repeat with LF this month. Guess I dodged a bullet there.

[SexInSTL]

That sucks about LF as I really liked them better than the AMPs around here.

[JmSuttr]

LF is Chinese. Once in awhile they would have a Korean girl.

I went a couple times last winter but haven't been since January. The experience was just too inconsistent.

Their screening wasn't as tight as the K agencies. In a way, it's a little surprising that they went on so long. They've been operating for years, and I only tried them after other options disappeared or got too expensive in the wake of FOSTA / SESTA.

You're absolutely correct that actual trafficking requires something more than just prostitution. I'm not a legal expert in the field but, from everything I've heard and seen, it requires some kind of coercion or intimidation or underage participants. Adult women who are voluntarily and willingly selling sexual services are not trafficking victims. And that's true even if they travel or are transported across state lines.

But, just like we saw with the Robert Kraft AMP bust in Florida, there's absolutely no downside for LE in calling everything trafficking, even if no trafficking charges are ever filed and no trafficking convictions are ever obtained.

And that's one possible reason why we haven't seen a big deal made of this in the media. If it's now the "new normal" to label anything associated with prostitution as trafficking, then stories about garden-variety (pseudo) trafficking become less of a big deal.

IMHO, the best way to stay safe in this new environment is to see verified Indies who you absolutely know are adults and working for themselves.

[Bacon Bread]

Last time I went to LF they were in the apartments in Fair Oaks off Monument, not the Mosaic district in Merrifield. Granted it's been a little while since I went, so did they move?

They moved sometime in the spring or summer. I had never been to the new location.