"Sugarbabies" / "Arrangements" Amateurs or Not?

[Mike7794]

In a perfect world, yes that would prevent individual SDs from getting involved in trafficking cases, but human error does occur and I wonder how many SDs are going to ask for identification from every girl, knowing she is going to ask for their ident in return (thereby exposing themselves and violating my anonymity recommendation). Not to mention the girl could have a fake ident. Technically the SD sites do not allow girls under 18, and that should be avoidance enough, but history is shown that we still need to be on our toes about this.

However, it's important to understand that prevention of individual SDs getting busted is one of two distinct issues I've been discussing here, and IMO the lesser of the two risks.

The big risk is that "something like" a trafficking case brings unwanted attention to the SD sites, shutting down the commerce pipeline that makes them possible. And, all it would take is one high profile media case of the scenario I've described. It doesn't matter if SDs check her IDs and avoid her or not, it could still happen if people see SD sites as an escort mechanism. That's the part I think we should all be worried about if we want to preserve the hobby.

The trafficking example is just that -- an example. Something like the Google exec / heroin call girl media case could also bring similar, unwanted attention. Anything that piques prosecutors interest. Recently it was "revenge porn" sites, in the near future it could be SD sites.

Regarding "Anything that piques the prosecutors interest" when that happens they can create a false perception of the SD sites that causes the commerce issues you're talking about.

I do have a question. You mentioned "revenge porn" sites. Can you bring me up to speed on what the definition is?

[JZLizard]

Good discussion on this thread of recent and here. I have to wonder if we are wandering off track a bit? There needs to be a distinction between some anonymity and safety versus being invisible to LE. The former makes sense as a prudent move, the later isn't going to happen with advice proffered here.

I've always believed that wandering off track is inevitable in a single, monolithic thread like this one. In the past I've lobbied to see the entire discussion of sugar daddying be spun off into a series of sub-forums, categorized into appropriate topic-specific buckets. It doesn't make sense to try to cover all of the issues an SD could potentially encounter in one thread, much less one that's categorized under a single US city. Some agreed with my goals, some didn't. I'm sure everything we are discussing now will get discussed again 4 or 5 thousand posts later, as the thread grows larger and more cumbersome. One of the better things that has come from it, IMO is the separate FAQ and index thread, though I'm not sure how many folks view it; hopefully newcomers at least.

You brought up a good point though -- I always encourage anonymity, and recently suggested it as a priority in the recent "top three rules" thread. In striving for brevity in that particular post I probably failed to mention that I only meant to remain as anonymous to the SB as possible, such that she does not know too much about you. I wasn't suggesting that as sugar daddies we need to worry about video surveillance at Walmart or the serial numbers on pre-paid cards. Being anonymous to LE agencies and anonymous to SBs are two very different things.

One of my other critical rules is simple enough -- as an SD, don't do anything illegal (including directly offering money for sex). Following that rule prevents us from having to worry about LE at all, at that point we only need to worry about the SO finding out, or an SB interfering with our professional life. Forgoing that rule, the JLizard-Plan-For-Success (tm) becomes less effective for sure.

So, I would say invisibility to LE is not a practical goal -- at all. Not in the information age. What can be achieved though, I think is a reasonable balance between managing one's professional or family life and playing the field a little. The field can get addictive, and succumbing to that addiction can cost a man a great deal in the overall scheme of life happiness. I do think reasonable balance is possible, even if it's a constant struggle.

[Cephlapod Love]

Since we are on the topic of avoiding LE what should one do if busted?

If the only words out of one's mouth is "I am not saying anything until my attorney gets here" the right thing to do? Of course LE will try to scare one into admitting to the act.

Sorry PghGuy. You stepped on one of my hot buttons. This isn't a personal attack, just a impassioned reply.

Look. If one needs to ask this question IMHO they are playing "blind" and need an education! The easiest way to end up a statistic is to wander into the game without the knowledge and tools one needs.

LE are specifically trained at interrogation and questioning techniques. This is their job this is what they studied. Their whole mission is to get YOU to confess to a crime. It makes the rest of the legal system process easier.

I think the philosophy has something to do with the way we are raised. Everyone remembers getting caught red-handed with their hand in the cookie jar when a kid. And of course saying, "I didn't do it!" We then are scolded, not for the act but for the lie. So ingrained in us is that voice that tells us when caught:"tell the truth!" So since this is in human nature (socialization) LE will use that guilt against you to get you to "tell the truth" and in effect testify against yourself (Giving up one's 5th Amendment Rights!) When you talk to LE you are going up against pros. And you want to do that without any training? Good luck!

Look, when a cop stops you on the freeway for speeding, what is the first question he / she asks you? "Where were you going so fast?" Sounds innocent enough and usually delivered in a friendly tone: but it is anything but friendly. Answer that and in effect you have admitted to speeding! Look, knew a guy who was a Public Defender and he told me 95% of the cases that came across his desk he could do NOTHING with because the person had opened their mouth, talked to LE and had incriminated them self!

So the only way to avoid self incrimination is to get some training into how to deal with LE.

That is why I think it is in every hobbyists best interest to watch the first 15+ minutes of the video "Busted: The Citizen's Guide to Surviving Police Encounters " Watch it and take notes, watch it again, watch it until your eyes bleed! But watch it until you have the information engrained in you. When LE stops you is no time to try to be thinking back, "Gee, now what did that video say I should be doing right now?

https://youtu.be/yqMjMPlXzdA

The tools are out there, no need to wander around ignorant (lack of knowledge) and at risk!

Good luck & stay safe!

[Cephlapod Love]

The social doesn't come into play at the time you buy the card, typically they have to be activated before you can use them, and I guess CC require social (or at least some of them)? If its a reloadable credit card, it will need a way for you to add funds to it at some point. If it's a gift card / prepaid debit, then as long as the website accepts them I suppose if you paid cash you're probably as anonymous as one can get.

Nothing remotely connected to the Internet or computers is truly anonymous. There are more ways to track someone than could even be discussed here. Just getting a prepaid card or burner phone is enough to throw the wife off the trail, but beyond that it would barely put a speed bump in the road for LE.

If the purpose is to not have one's real name in an SD site membership list (in case they get hacked like AM did with the threat of members published), then as long as the website accepts the card it should be good enough.

Good discussion on this thread of recent and here. I have to wonder if we are wandering off track a bit? There needs to be a distinction between some anonymity and safety versus being invisible to LE. The former makes sense as a prudent move, the later isn't going to happen with advice proffered here.

Me thinks the purpose of having a burner phone and alias on a SD site is to maintain ones privacy and NOT necessarily evade criminal detection. You want the burner phone or SD account to NOT point directly back to you so that one is protected from nefarious situations. Yes, you do something criminal (felony) and the resources of the state are going to come to bear on you. But even if one offers "sex for money" its usually a misdemeanor and not worthy of a huge resource spend. So the point is if a girl gets crazy, a jealous BF / hubby appears, SO gets snoopy or something else bad happens, one has an extra degree of separation that can be easily severed.

The point is taking SOME precautions, versus take NO precautions. Nothing is going to be perfect, but something is better than nothing.

[JZLizard]

What sabout prepaid Vi $a from CVS or 7-Eleven. I doubt the cashier in 7-11 will ask for your social if you paid for the card with cash.

The social doesn't come into play at the time you buy the card, typically they have to be activated before you can use them, and I guess CC require social (or at least some of them)? If its a reloadable credit card, it will need a way for you to add funds to it at some point. If it's a gift card / prepaid debit, then as long as the website accepts them I suppose if you paid cash you're probably as anonymous as one can get.

Nothing remotely connected to the Internet or computers is truly anonymous. There are more ways to track someone than could even be discussed here. Just getting a prepaid card or burner phone is enough to throw the wife off the trail, but beyond that it would barely put a speed bump in the road for LE.

If the purpose is to not have one's real name in an SD site membership list (in case they get hacked like AM did with the threat of members published), then as long as the website accepts the card it should be good enough.

[Bill Cullen]

Since we are on the topic of avoiding LE what should one do if busted?

If the only words out of one's mouth is "I am not saying anything until my attorney gets here" the right thing to do? Of course LE will try to scare one into admitting to the act.

My bust (BP, NOT SD) was very different from the norm. I knew they were in very sketchy territory so I said nothing and denied everything. "I was there visiting a friend. No, you can't look at my phone". The one mistake I did make was I gave them I'd when asked. My lawyer later said it was a very gray area and they probably could've forced me to give it anyway.

So there's two uncles & one aunt in the room and it was very obvious they were frustrated by me. Kinda funny looking back on it. They didn't know what to do so they let me go. I walked to a nearby business, waited for them to leave, then walked back, got my car & left. They contacted me a couple hours later and told me they swore out a warrant. The very ambiguous & uncle friendly bawdy place statute. Do other states have this, or just mine?

I went to see a lawyer the next morning and then turned myself in with him at my side.

Bottom line: Shut up & deny. No matter what they say or what the situation is, they are NOT your friend.

[MalMonger]

My personal belief is that anyone 21+ messing with someone under 18 should be in trouble. Apparently several legislatures do not agree with me.

What kind of girls do you think they like? They're not going to pass laws that get themselves in deep trouble. They're stupid, but not THAT stupid.

[JZLizard]

Even if the surveillance video identifies customers matching them with the transactions will depend on the recollection of the clerk. Of course they can investigate all the cash paying customers but that will need more resources.

Every prepaid card or phone has in effect what is a serial number uniquely identifying it. If LE came looking for video footage, it only takes a few minutes to see the exact time and date and at which register # that card was sold at (even if they pay in cash). Then they are about 2 more minutes away from retrieving the archived digital video clip showing the customer and the clerk performing the transaction, usually in high definition and at multiple angles.

That is, at least at any Walmart / BestBuy or reasonably modern place. Some of the video surveillance systems are sophisticated enough that they can do it in one step -- type in the serial # of the item and watch the video, all in seconds. I'm sure if you bought a prepaid card at a small no-name gas station or store where the owner doesn't keep his cameras working, then it could be harder of course. But good camera systems are cheap and easy these days and even the rural no-name stores usually have them in good working order. It might take a little longer to find when the card was sold, but they have less records to sort through as well so in most cases the video would be readily available if LE really wanted it.

Again though I wouldn't sweat this at all as an SD. Hopefully nobody is doing anything shady enough to have a need for that level of anonymity. It's good enough for hiding transactions from the wife.

[JZLizard]

Since we are on the topic of avoiding LE what should one do if busted?

If the only words out of one's mouth is "I am not saying anything until my attorney gets here" the right thing to do? Of course LE will try to scare one into admitting to the act.

I would probably do all my talking through a lawyer.

[JZLizard]

Exactly. The charge of solicitation is usually a misdemeanor, as such there is little cost benefit to LE getting court orders to search CC records, look a surveillance tapes to identify who bought a card, etc. Er, unless one is tied to a larger crime like trafficking. It IS cost effective to get you to incriminate yourself.



Do gift cards work on SA, SD4 M and other such sites? Can one use it for a re-occuring monthly charges for a cell phone?

Yes, nobody is going to go tracing prepaid cards or burner phones unless something serious has gone down.

To the best of my knowledge, the VISA / MC gift cards work basically like regular cards and should be valid wherever those are accepted, but I'm not sure about individual websites -- they may have a way to disallow prepaid ones. One issue could come up with address validation -- perhaps not an issue on an SD site but on other sites where they are shipping merchandise -- some of them might use software that validates the address on the card against that of the individual, and with a gift card that doesn't have an address that might not go through. Someone else maybe could comment because I've never tried this. My SO doesn't see any of my bank statements and I'm careful never to do anything illegal so I just use real info.

[Crow999]

Surely it will come down to mind over matter.

So my little Hawaiian Princess has just decided that she needs some refuge from her family that she was staying with in L. A. So she made me save her and she is now living with me for the next week?. Month? I don't know and I don't really care. Now its just me feeding her and that's about it. I estimate she will cost me .3 a day at the most.

She is almost a zero maintenance girl. So totally unexpected, but what the hell. All I have to deal with is my ATF and we will find a way to manage. My princess is OK with the ATF coming over twice a week to make sure I get laid properly. So I think we will all be OK.

She is still a virgin -1 and I agreed I will not try to fuck her as long as we can do everything else. And she agreed. These are quality problems gentleman.

[Crow999]

What sabout prepaid Vi $a from CVS or 7-Eleven. I doubt the cashier in 7-11 will ask for your social if you paid for the card with cash.

My understanding is that prepaid credit cards (which can be reloaded) aren't anonymous, while gift cards are. Well sort of. The level of anonymity is good enough to hide transactions from the wife but not truly anonymous. LE can track everything from the card or check that was used to purchase the prepaid or gift card (you could pay cash and bypass that one to some extent) to obtaining video surveillance of the purchaser (they are able to do this because of course criminals and terrorists use prepaid cards and burner phones). Not an issue for a typical SD or monger.

For SD purposes if your goal is just to keep the transactions off one of your "known" card, I wouldn't worry too much about putting in your social. Don't put a fake SSN in, that's identify theft and is a crime in itself.

If you aren't comfortable with that you might try the gift cards.

[PghGuy2005]

My understanding is that prepaid credit cards (which can be reloaded) aren't anonymous, while gift cards are. Well sort of. The level of anonymity is good enough to hide transactions from the wife but not truly anonymous. LE can track everything from the card or check that was used to purchase the prepaid or gift card (you could pay cash and bypass that one to some extent) to obtaining video surveillance of the purchaser (they are able to do this because of course criminals and terrorists use prepaid cards and burner phones). Not an issue for a typical SD or monger.
...

Even if the surveillance video identifies customers matching them with the transactions will depend on the recollection of the clerk. Of course they can investigate all the cash paying customers but that will need more resources.

[PghGuy2005]

...
Do gift cards work on SA, SD4 M and other such sites? Can one use it for a re-occuring monthly charges for a cell phone?

Gift cards can be used wherever credit / debit cards are accepted but cannot use them to get cash from ATMs.

SD4 ME puts fraudulent charges on the card you use though in my case it was not too much about $4. Your bank may issue virtual card numbers with a set limit and expiration date which can be used on SD4 ME.

Finally check out abine.com to keep charges off your real life card they will be masked and appear as charges from abine. There is a fee for the service and they also offer telephone numbers to use instead of your real number.

[PghGuy2005]

Since we are on the topic of avoiding LE what should one do if busted?

If the only words out of one's mouth is "I am not saying anything until my attorney gets here" the right thing to do? Of course LE will try to scare one into admitting to the act.