Rants and Stupid shit in Orange County

[BSouthgate]

Thank you as well! This is a great discussion and I appreciate keeping everything civil, even though we may not agree on all points.

About the free or low cost room and board and being exploitative, it's about the girls being "stuck. " Again, it isn't jail. They can leave if they wish. There's no walls around them. But if they leave they aren't likely to have anywhere to go. They may not even be documented as you pointed out. There are AMP owners who exploit that. I won't mention which spas they are because I'm not here to call anybody out. There are even some spas where the girls are expected to have sex with the owner at his whim. I know a couple girls who have "escaped" that setting, only to go back later because once they escaped they found they had no other options to keep a roof over their heads. Some of them ultimately got their own places. Good for them. They're much more free than they were before, but still stuck giving HJs and BJs for a living because they have no other skills that pay enough to meet their living expenses.

Offering affordable houses to employees is one thing. Offering affordable housing to employees under condition of them continuing to work in your illegal shop, while said employees are undocumented and clearly have no other options, and subjecting them to deplorable working conditions is another thing entirely. Many of these girls are literally stuck..

This has been a great dialogue. I, too, feel it should end here. My closing statement is to ask you to watch this poor exploited woman who is suffering through an hour with a monger in order to make a few hundred dollars.

https://pornzog.com/video/3808001/oral-wonderland/

[Grimmy23]

Grimmy, thanks for your comments, I generally learn something from your posts.

Not a question on whether a gal is trapped or trafficked, but rather the administrative side. Applicable to nearly any business that would lease / rent to a Tennant.

How does one go about leasing a place if one doesen't have a paper trail, credit score etc. , etc??

I've always been curious about that. Does the landlord not check things out?

I equate it to a "normal" residential landlord I. E. Written minimal criteria for any prospective tenants, verifying references, etc.

Just curious.

I'm going to have to speculate a bit, and before I do that I'll have to give some background because it's pretty complicated. Commercial real estate is much more complicated than residential real estate with a lot more moving parts, so forgive me if I get long winded here because I probably will.

With residential rentals, the only thing really on the table is how much the rent is. With commercial storefront rentals the rent is just one of many pieces. There's CAM fees, clauses about who pays dfor what if something breaks. There's signage rights. Do you get to be on the strip malls landmark sign, and if yea, what position on the sign do you get? There's the issue of what sign you put over your door. A business can't just put up whatever sign it wants. There's local ordinances and everything has to be approved by the landlord. Who pays for the electricity for your sign? Businesses all have two names. A legal entity name and the name that the public knows you by. The public needs to be able to figure out who to sue if they need to, so the DBA name (which is the name you hang over your door) has to be traceable to a legal entity that can be served process.

There's something called Tenant Improvement (TI) allowance which is customary. That means when you finish your construction and open your business, the landlord often cuts you a check to cover some or all of your construction costs. For the business I opened, TImeas typically in the $50 k range. I didn't get TI. In my case I got free rent while construction was being done and for the first 4 months of being open. After that I had half price rent which gradually ramped up to full rent to give my business time to ramp up.

Them there's things like exclusivity clauses. No other massage business can come into my shopping center because I got exclusivity. There's clauses on who can move in next door. When you're running a massage shop you don't want a kickboxing or karate studio moving in next door, or a Korean kimchi restaurant where that emits foul odors. And then there's things like what if the restaurant next door wants to expand. The landlord can move you to another space but then they have to pay for your new construction and relocation.

Bottom line is it's very, very complicated. Because it's so complicated they do meddle in your affairs quite a bit. Personal financial statements, business financial statements, personal and business credit references, business plans with revenue projections, etc. They usually even require a personal guarantee. In my case Inhad to personally guarantee the rent for the entire 10 year term of my lease. If my business goes under they can foreclose on my house to collect rent for as long as the space stays vacant.

Now back to you pr question. How do the AMPs do it? I can only speculate, but one thing is very clear. Just look at the shopping centers that most of these places are in. Quite often they're old, run down centers where filling empty space isn't that easy. Quite often they're Asian owned. I suspect there's a lot of looking the other way going on. I wouldn't even be surprised to hear that the center owners are complicit in the AMP business and even helping to launder some of their money. I can't think of too many AMPs that are in nice modern centers, comfortably nestled between a Starbucks and a Crumble Cookies.

[Taws6]

Snip
They may not even be documented as you pointed out.
Snip for brevity

I know a couple girls who have "escaped" that setting, only to go back later because once they escaped they found they had no other options to keep a roof over their heads. Some of them ultimately got their own places.

Grimmy, thanks for your comments, I generally learn something from your posts.

Not a question on whether a gal is trapped or trafficked, but rather the administrative side. Applicable to nearly any business that would lease / rent to a Tennant.

How does one go about leasing a place if one doesen't have a paper trail, credit score etc. , etc??

I've always been curious about that. Does the landlord not check things out?

I equate it to a "normal" residential landlord I. E. Written minimal criteria for any prospective tenants, verifying references, etc.

Just curious.

[Grimmy23]

Grimmy, thank you for the effort and time you put into this post and the hordes of information and knowledge you shared in your previous posts. This site is lucky to have you. I understand that you are in the legitimate massage business and have extensive knowledge about all aspects of it.

I am highly skeptical about the prevalence of trafficking in OC or even in the SG Valley.

First of all, I'm not at all convinced that renting a room to a 45-year-old non-documented Chinese employee is, in any way, exploitative or even close to what one should call trafficking. To think that providing cheap rent to one's employees approaches being unfair or abusive seems way off the mark. It also implies ethnocentrism. My home / office in China was a large townhouse across the street from the dormitory of the local Hilton Hotel. Both the Hilton and I housed employees and volunteers on our property. Neither the Hilton nor I charged rent. How on earth is this exploitative? This is the way it is done in other countries. It is better there than here. It is a different culture with different practices.

Second, I made my estimate that less than one percent of massage women are trafficked in OC based on the California police stats. Of course, I can be wrong. You are in the business and must have more knowledge than I about trafficked women who are unknown to the police. But if the number is even as high as ten percent, would there not be many reports on these review sites of mongers who had encountered trafficked massage girls?

I have personally experienced a couple of US streetwalkers who described a trafficking situation. So, I will grant you that trafficking is probably prevalent among street women, but I have never detected any evidence that anyone from an American MP had been trafficked. This is even though I am fluent in Mandarin and Spanish, have dated massage girls, and have met their families. What other reader has had different experiences?

So, if you know of places that are trafficking women (not renting cheap rooms), you should let us all know so we can avoid these places.

Thanks again for all your contributions. I very much enjoy reading your posts.

Thank you as well! This is a great discussion and I appreciate keeping everything civil, even though we may not agree on all points.

About the free or low cost room and board and being exploitative, it's about the girls being "stuck. " Again, it isn't jail. They can leave if they wish. There's no walls around them. But if they leave they aren't likely to have anywhere to go. They may not even be documented as you pointed out. There are AMP owners who exploit that. I won't mention which spas they are because I'm not here to call anybody out. There are even some spas where the girls are expected to have sex with the owner at his whim. I know a couple girls who have "escaped" that setting, only to go back later because once they escaped they found they had no other options to keep a roof over their heads. Some of them ultimately got their own places. Good for them. They're much more free than they were before, but still stuck giving HJs and BJs for a living because they have no other skills that pay enough to meet their living expenses.

Offering affordable houses to employees is one thing. Offering affordable housing to employees under condition of them continuing to work in your illegal shop, while said employees are undocumented and clearly have no other options, and subjecting them to deplorable working conditions is another thing entirely. Many of these girls are literally stuck.

Once again I won't name names of spas here because I'm not here to call anybody out, but there are clear warning signs that make me avoid certain spas. Places that rotate girls frequently, as in they have an entirely new staff every week or two. That's an indication that they may be getting shuffled around to stay a step ahead of law enforcement and immigration officials. I've seen many cases where girls are even taken from state to state, literally coast to coast. Any signs of the girls living in the shops is a huge red flag. They're literally being kept in there under squalid conditions, being served minimal food, pretty much not being allowed to leave the shop. And then they're shuttled from that shop to another in a couple weeks. Signs of meals being prepared in the spas also tends to point to the girls living there. Not always of course, but it's one of the thing that makes me raise my eyebrows a little and wonder what's going on behind the scenes. And just the overall mood of the girls. I can usually sense when something just seems a bit off. They're visibly not happy, just going through the motions to get through the day.

Police stats are only based on what they know. Violation of California law. There are a lot of things that fall well outside their jurisdiction and / or are extremely difficult to prove in a court of law. Quid pro quo trafficking a I described it for example. In order to bust the owners of one of those spas for quid pro quo trafficking you would have to gather a ton of very difficult to collect evidence, which would include getting the girls to admit that they were doing this beyond their will. Of course if they're undocumented or here on expired visas it would be tough to get them to talk. They don't want to risk deportation, and they don't know what the unknown is. What exactly happens to them if they cooperate. In their home country, cooperating with the police can often lead to dire consequences. So exactly how do you get them to come out and say that they want to leave the business but can't because the owner will kick them out of the house and they have nowhere to go?

Bottom line is it's a very, very complicated subject with no easy answers to anything. One thing is for certain, and that is that it's pretty easy to ascertain that not many of these girls do this voluntarily. Some of them do for the money. They're in love with the money and they know they can't make anywhere near that much doing anything else, so they continue to tolerate it. Think about it though, as another poster here pointed out earlier. Say your job is to finger a dozen random women a day, eat some of them out, suck their tits, maybe even have sex with some of them. Out of the dozen you see every day, most are older, unattractive, overweight, and have less than stellar hygiene. They're trying to grab at you, rip your clothes off, kiss you, stick their fingers up your ass, and who knows what else. That's your job and you have to keep doing it in order to continue living in the owners' hose and eating the food you're provided. How many of you would enjoy that? Probably not many. Some maybe enjoy sex enough that they would enjoy it. Most would just tolerate it because it's a living, and perhaps a very good living.

It's been a great debate but I probably won't make any additional comments about it because we will probably never be in full agreement. Thanks again for the thoughtful discussion!

[BSouthgate]

Again, not to stoke heated debate, but I would argue that trafficking is a bit more prominent than you're led to believe. Not all of the girls in all of the MPs are trafficked, and OC isn't a trafficking hotspot. Trafficking is a lot more prominent in the San Gabriel Valley than it is in OC. But also keep in mind what I pointed out in my last post. There are a lot of girls in OC who aren't trafficked per se. They're free to come and go if they wish. But the conditions they are under could easily be argued as quid pro quo trafficking.

As you say, the definition of trafficking according to California Penal Code is "violating or depriving the personal liberty of another with the intent to obtain forced labor or services, sell or procure the person for commercial sex, or exploit the person in an obscene manner. " So let's say you're a girl working for the prominent OC AMP that I referenced earlier but still won't name names because that's not the point of these posts. You're a Chinese woman in her 40's or 50's, you work for this AMP, you're given a place to live and the food you need. You have to pay room and board to the owner, but the costs are reasonable. In order to keep living there and having room and board covered for a reasonable and affordable cost, you have to work in their dark, dingy, and dirty (and yes, all of these AMPs are dirty. Not a single one of them meets any health code standard even if they appear clean on the surface) shop, 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. You have to jerk off 12 random guys every day, many of whom you've never met. You have to stick your finger up at least some of their asses. You have to suck some of their dicks. All while they try to pull your clothes off and touch your intimate parts. You might even have to have sex with a few of them. Again, you're free to go. An argument can be made that you're doing it voluntarily, so therefore you aren't trafficked. However, if you go, then what? You're in a country where you don't speak much of the language. If you quit you have nowhere to live. You have no marketable skills. Maybe if you did well in the business you saved up enough to get your own apartment for a while, but eventually you need another job, and minimum wage jobs aren't going to cut it for very long. So you're kind of stuck, and the spa owner knows you're stuck and fully exploits the fact that you're stuck. That's quid pro quo trafficking.

You can argue that even with that, it's "better living conditions that the girl had in China. " That may be true, but this isn't China. This is the USA where it isn't acceptable for workers to be treated that way.

Again, this doesn't apply to all AMPs, or even a majority of AMPs, especially in OC. But it is out there in fairly substantial numbers. It's also not limited to sex trafficking, and it certainly isn't limited to Asians. Trafficking is also prominent in the restaurant and hospitality industries. Hotel maids, dish washers, etc..

Grimmy, thank you for the effort and time you put into this post and the hordes of information and knowledge you shared in your previous posts. This site is lucky to have you. I understand that you are in the legitimate massage business and have extensive knowledge about all aspects of it.

I am highly skeptical about the prevalence of trafficking in OC or even in the SG Valley.

First of all, I'm not at all convinced that renting a room to a 45-year-old non-documented Chinese employee is, in any way, exploitative or even close to what one should call trafficking. To think that providing cheap rent to one's employees approaches being unfair or abusive seems way off the mark. It also implies ethnocentrism. My home / office in China was a large townhouse across the street from the dormitory of the local Hilton Hotel. Both the Hilton and I housed employees and volunteers on our property. Neither the Hilton nor I charged rent. How on earth is this exploitative? This is the way it is done in other countries. It is better there than here. It is a different culture with different practices.

Second, I made my estimate that less than one percent of massage women are trafficked in OC based on the California police stats. Of course, I can be wrong. You are in the business and must have more knowledge than I about trafficked women who are unknown to the police. But if the number is even as high as ten percent, would there not be many reports on these review sites of mongers who had encountered trafficked massage girls?

I have personally experienced a couple of US streetwalkers who described a trafficking situation. So, I will grant you that trafficking is probably prevalent among street women, but I have never detected any evidence that anyone from an American MP had been trafficked. This is even though I am fluent in Mandarin and Spanish, have dated massage girls, and have met their families. What other reader has had different experiences?

So, if you know of places that are trafficking women (not renting cheap rooms), you should let us all know so we can avoid these places.

Thanks again for all your contributions. I very much enjoy reading your posts.

[Lift Her Up]

If our site monitor Admin were to give awards for thoughtful and well researched postings, these should go to Grimmy and BSouthGate.

I think the definition of "human trafficking" varies according to whoever is saying it. The California definition cited by BSouthGate emphasizes the involuntary part. Otoh I just read the UN protocol written up in the Wiki article on human trafficking. This one sticks closer to the US's Mann Act (1910): Any transportation or "harboring" for prostitution fits the definition. So when someone complains about human trafficking, one might inquire just what the speaker means. There is little trafficking under the California definition and our providers are almost all trafficked under the UN definition.

In my own mind, the part that is wrong is the involuntary nature. I hope I've never had sex with a sex worker who's in this involuntarily. Would I want any of my younger female relatives involved in this? No. But if they were, I'd want them to have a safe protected environment and be able to screen their clients, and I'd want them to have a realistic back-up plan for when the business fades for them or they otherwise want to get out. I wouldn't want society to condemn them for their prior choice. And I am so grateful for the women who are willing to help me enjoy sexual expression, thus the motive for my handle here.

And now, having blown off steam here, it's time to go out and blow my wad (1960's term), looking for a vagina to slide into and move back and forth inside.

Lift Her Up.

[Grimmy23]

I agree that trafficking exists, just like fatal attacks by mountain lions and deaths from lightning. However, lion attacks and lightning strikes are rare. Trafficking is more common but still infrequent enough to be rare.

Since 2018, there have been, according to the California Penal Code definition, between 600 and 1200 annual cases of human trafficking in all of California. https://htcourts.org/california/. If OC had a proportionate share of these cases, OC would have between 50 and 100 cases of trafficking per yearmost of these involved street prostitution, some involved escort girls, and some involved children and men. About ten percent were not prostitution-related, and many involved internet interactions between adults and children. Probably less than a fifth involved massage parlor women. So, OC MPs have trafficked 10 to 20 women this year.

According to RM, there are at least 400 MPs in OC. Given the high turnover, let's assign five women to each MP annually. Thus, 2000 MP women work in OC each year. Of these, fewer than 1% of MP girls are trafficked according to the Cal State penal code definition.

Now, just so we know what we are talking about, what is the California definition of human trafficking? It is precisely "violating or depriving the personal liberty of another with the intent to obtain forced labor or services, sell or procure the person for commercial sex, or exploit the person in an obscene manner. " For example, one person was convicted of trafficking because he, one time, offered a 17-year-old girl the potential to work in an incall brothel. The girl refused and reported the guy who went to jail.

It is lucrative for police departments and especially for NGOs like the Polaris Group to find "trafficked" women. To do so, they often use "evidence of the kind that Grimmy uses in his post, that is, that the trafficking "victim" lives in the home of the business owner or on the property of the business. However, this custom is a rule in many Asian countries. I ran a small medical charity business in China and frequently housed my employees in my home / clinic / office. Restaurant owners and hotels, large and small, all do this. According to xxx and the California police and NGOs, we all were trafficking.

Again, not to stoke heated debate, but I would argue that trafficking is a bit more prominent than you're led to believe. Not all of the girls in all of the MPs are trafficked, and OC isn't a trafficking hotspot. Trafficking is a lot more prominent in the San Gabriel Valley than it is in OC. But also keep in mind what I pointed out in my last post. There are a lot of girls in OC who aren't trafficked per se. They're free to come and go if they wish. But the conditions they are under could easily be argued as quid pro quo trafficking.

As you say, the definition of trafficking according to California Penal Code is "violating or depriving the personal liberty of another with the intent to obtain forced labor or services, sell or procure the person for commercial sex, or exploit the person in an obscene manner. " So let's say you're a girl working for the prominent OC AMP that I referenced earlier but still won't name names because that's not the point of these posts. You're a Chinese woman in her 40's or 50's, you work for this AMP, you're given a place to live and the food you need. You have to pay room and board to the owner, but the costs are reasonable. In order to keep living there and having room and board covered for a reasonable and affordable cost, you have to work in their dark, dingy, and dirty (and yes, all of these AMPs are dirty. Not a single one of them meets any health code standard even if they appear clean on the surface) shop, 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. You have to jerk off 12 random guys every day, many of whom you've never met. You have to stick your finger up at least some of their asses. You have to suck some of their dicks. All while they try to pull your clothes off and touch your intimate parts. You might even have to have sex with a few of them. Again, you're free to go. An argument can be made that you're doing it voluntarily, so therefore you aren't trafficked. However, if you go, then what? You're in a country where you don't speak much of the language. If you quit you have nowhere to live. You have no marketable skills. Maybe if you did well in the business you saved up enough to get your own apartment for a while, but eventually you need another job, and minimum wage jobs aren't going to cut it for very long. So you're kind of stuck, and the spa owner knows you're stuck and fully exploits the fact that you're stuck. That's quid pro quo trafficking.

You can argue that even with that, it's "better living conditions that the girl had in China. " That may be true, but this isn't China. This is the USA where it isn't acceptable for workers to be treated that way.

Again, this doesn't apply to all AMPs, or even a majority of AMPs, especially in OC. But it is out there in fairly substantial numbers. It's also not limited to sex trafficking, and it certainly isn't limited to Asians. Trafficking is also prominent in the restaurant and hospitality industries. Hotel maids, dish washers, etc.

This all plays into the argument that prostitution should be legalized. Literally 100% of these AMPs are evading the law in one form or another, in addition to providing sexual services that are illegal. They are violating pretty much every labor law in the book. They're evading taxes. They're laundering money. All of that is necessary due to them having to operate in the shadows. I'd rather have it all be legal, with the girls being treated as actual employees and the shops following labor and tax laws, and keeping their places more in line with health code sanitation standards.

If you've ever been to Toronto you know that there's legal body rub shops there. You go in, pick a girl out of the lineup (and various nationalities are usually available), then go into the room where she gets naked and gives an erotic massage with a happy ending. They're HJ only, but usually young, hot girls who are doing it legally and earning real wages. The places are meticulously clean, get frequent health inspections like any other massage shop should, and as a customer you don't have to worry about the place getting raided while you're getting your dick stroked. Yes, it's more expensive than an AMP, but you're paying for quality and an overall better experience.

[HapaBoy86]

Oh yes, the OC register classified at the turn of the century. .

I found many gems in the OC Weekly classifieds back in the day. Besides getting my fingers full of black ink as well. LOL.

[BSouthgate]

Unfortunately, trafficking in this industry IS a thing. It happens far more than a lot of people on this forum realize. Is it that way in every AMP? No, absolutely not. There are many AMPs, including a lot of the favorite ones on this site, where the girls are not trafficked and all have docs to be in the country legally. There are also quite a few where it's not that way. I don't want to get into the debate here as it's a fruitless discussion, but there are certain signs I look for that indicate girls just might be trafficked, and I tend to avoid those places "just in case. " I don't want to be feeding that network by any means.

Now another thing to consider is there's "trafficking" and there's "quid pro quo trafficking. " Without mentioning names, there's one prominent shop in OC where the girls live with the owners. They get cheap room and board to live in the owner's house. But as a condition of getting that cheap room and board they have to keep working at the shop. They may be documented, but have no marketable skills and speak little English. So if they were to quit the shop they'd have to move out, which means they'd need another roof over their heads and another source of income. They're free to go at the end of the day so they're not trafficked per se. They aren't being enslaved. But that can also be considered quid pro quo trafficking since they're kind of stuck.

I agree that trafficking exists, just like fatal attacks by mountain lions and deaths from lightning. However, lion attacks and lightning strikes are rare. Trafficking is more common but still infrequent enough to be rare.

Since 2018, there have been, according to the California Penal Code definition, between 600 and 1200 annual cases of human trafficking in all of California. https://htcourts.org/california/. If OC had a proportionate share of these cases, OC would have between 50 and 100 cases of trafficking per year—most of these involved street prostitution, some involved escort girls, and some involved children and men. About ten percent were not prostitution-related, and many involved internet interactions between adults and children. Probably less than a fifth involved massage parlor women. So, OC MPs have trafficked 10 to 20 women this year.

According to RM, there are at least 400 MPs in OC. Given the high turnover, let's assign five women to each MP annually. Thus, 2000 MP women work in OC each year. Of these, fewer than 1% of MP girls are trafficked according to the Cal State penal code definition.

Now, just so we know what we are talking about, what is the California definition of human trafficking? It is precisely "violating or depriving the personal liberty of another with the intent to obtain forced labor or services, sell or procure the person for commercial sex, or exploit the person in an obscene manner. " For example, one person was convicted of trafficking because he, one time, offered a 17-year-old girl the potential to work in an incall brothel. The girl refused and reported the guy who went to jail.

It is lucrative for police departments and especially for NGOs like the Polaris Group to find "trafficked" women. To do so, they often use "evidence of the kind that Grimmy uses in his post, that is, that the trafficking "victim" lives in the home of the business owner or on the property of the business. However, this custom is a rule in many Asian countries. I ran a small medical charity business in China and frequently housed my employees in my home / clinic / office. Restaurant owners and hotels, large and small, all do this. According to xxx and the California police and NGOs, we all were trafficking.

[Grimmy23]

For those who do not know about the Robert Kraft story, a summary follows. Then, I will comment on why a book or essay such as that suggested is sorely needed.

Robert Kraft Story. I write from memory of reading news accounts and watching youtube podcasts on the subject. Some of my details may not be correct.

Kraft is a billionaire businessman who owns the New England Patriots and several other sports enterprises. In 2019, Kraft visited at least one massage parlor in South Florida. On one occasion, he happened on a parlor under police investigation with hidden cameras. The police were on an anti-trafficking campaign, hoping to get better funding and fame for themselves and collaborating nonprofits. The police were thus able to record Kraft getting a blowjob. When Kraft was being driven out of the parlor's parking lot, the police stopped his car to identify who he was. Kraft was one of many mongers who visited this MP who were on camera and identified in the same way. A court threw Kraft's case out because he had been secretly video-recorded, which is illegal.

More importantly, despite using coercive interview methods with the masseuses, the police could find zero evidence of trafficking. In short, they had spent millions and had only achieved embarrassment for a horny billionaire. Note that this is only one of many such unsuccessful attempts to find non-existent trafficking of Asian prostitutes.

The American public has been influenced to believe that the trafficking of Asian women for prostitution is widespread and that all erotic parlors are loci of trafficking. Honest investigative reporting is necessary on this subject. I suggest that a young monger reading this thread consider studying this subject.

I am familiar with standard research practices and would happily advise and mentor such a person. Please DM me if you are interested in discussing this.

Unfortunately, trafficking in this industry IS a thing. It happens far more than a lot of people on this forum realize. Is it that way in every AMP? No, absolutely not. There are many AMPs, including a lot of the favorite ones on this site, where the girls are not trafficked and all have docs to be in the country legally. There are also quite a few where it's not that way. I don't want to get into the debate here as it's a fruitless discussion, but there are certain signs I look for that indicate girls just might be trafficked, and I tend to avoid those places "just in case. " I don't want to be feeding that network by any means.

Now another thing to consider is there's "trafficking" and there's "quid pro quo trafficking. " Without mentioning names, there's one prominent shop in OC where the girls live with the owners. They get cheap room and board to live in the owner's house. But as a condition of getting that cheap room and board they have to keep working at the shop. They may be documented, but have no marketable skills and speak little English. So if they were to quit the shop they'd have to move out, which means they'd need another roof over their heads and another source of income. They're free to go at the end of the day so they're not trafficked per se. They aren't being enslaved. But that can also be considered quid pro quo trafficking since they're kind of stuck.

[BSouthgate]

I agree with you. Please also note that the two books I referred to on the topic of how sex workers feel about their work were White women writing primarily about White women.

Meanwhile, I hope at least a few people out there (I mean not on this board) grasped that the women who helped out Kraft were not enslaved.

Lift Her Up.

Lift Her Up.

For those who do not know about the Robert Kraft story, a summary follows. Then, I will comment on why a book or essay such as that suggested is sorely needed.

Robert Kraft Story. I write from memory of reading news accounts and watching youtube podcasts on the subject. Some of my details may not be correct.

Kraft is a billionaire businessman who owns the New England Patriots and several other sports enterprises. In 2019, Kraft visited at least one massage parlor in South Florida. On one occasion, he happened on a parlor under police investigation with hidden cameras. The police were on an anti-trafficking campaign, hoping to get better funding and fame for themselves and collaborating nonprofits. The police were thus able to record Kraft getting a blowjob. When Kraft was being driven out of the parlor's parking lot, the police stopped his car to identify who he was. Kraft was one of many mongers who visited this MP who were on camera and identified in the same way. A court threw Kraft's case out because he had been secretly video-recorded, which is illegal.

More importantly, despite using coercive interview methods with the masseuses, the police could find zero evidence of trafficking. In short, they had spent millions and had only achieved embarrassment for a horny billionaire. Note that this is only one of many such unsuccessful attempts to find non-existent trafficking of Asian prostitutes.

The American public has been influenced to believe that the trafficking of Asian women for prostitution is widespread and that all erotic parlors are loci of trafficking. Honest investigative reporting is necessary on this subject. I suggest that a young monger reading this thread consider studying this subject.

I am familiar with standard research practices and would happily advise and mentor such a person. Please DM me if you are interested in discussing this.

[DWaits]

Thanks for the posts about OC before this forum. Interesting reading.

[Lift Her Up]

Someone should find a Chinese translator, and interview the actual girls working the local shops.

The problem with a western woman writing a book about Asian sex workers is that they bring tons of baggage to their viewpoint. You might recall the billionaire owner of the New Englan Patriots got busted for getting a HE in Florida. The newspapers started talking about how bad it was that these women were trafficked and implied they were held against their will and forced to do sex acts with disgusting American men. But when they started poking around, they found there were no guards or goons keeping these girls from fleeing. No one was beaten or threatened. They were just women who chose to come to the US to make 100 times what they would make back in China.

Our society is increasingly anti-male, anti-older male, and any male sexual urge is disgusting. Women are all virtuous or victims, and their monetizing their sexuality is a form of freedom and self-expression, and their sexual urges are beautiful.

So what it would take is a Chinese speaking Chinese woman to interview these ladies. There are some work conditions that don't meet local legal standards, but they do meet Chinese standards in China, and so they are all fine with those rules and never complain about them. More than half of Chinese don't make a $500 a year, and these girls make $1000 a week. Who complains about making 100 times your normal salary? If you were making $100 k here, and you were offered a job making $10,000,000 a year working in a foreign country, would you be complaining?

Of course Asian women enjoy sex too. But female sexuality is much more restrained. The culture is more conservative in many ways. More generally, Asian culture has much more self-control in all ways. How many times have you seen a Chinese woman drinking a coke or eating french fries? Look at how thin most of these women are. But they don't go to gyms, they just don't eat that much.

I agree with you. Please also note that the two books I referred to on the topic of how sex workers feel about their work were White women writing primarily about White women.

Meanwhile, I hope at least a few people out there (I mean not on this board) grasped that the women who helped out Kraft were not enslaved.

Lift Her Up.

Lift Her Up.

[JerkieChan]

So, last week, I got a txt from an unknown number on my prepaid phone. It reads"I am back from my trip to Korea, how are you?

I though she was one of my favorites, so I replied "Sorry", I don't recognize your number, who is this?

She then wrote"This is Grace, we met at the jewelry show. " and she sent a picture of a beautiful middle age Asian lady next to another non-Asian older lady in an afternoon party setting.

Sounds to me like it was an attempt at a "pig butchering scam. " I've experienced a similar scenario a few times, always with a case of mistaken identity, contacted by a successful, attractive Asian woman. I couldn't find their pictures online either.

[Duke1973]

So, last week, I got a txt from an unknown number on my prepaid phone. It reads"I am back from my trip to Korea, how are you?

I though she was one of my favorites, so I replied "Sorry", I don't recognize your number, who is this?

She then wrote"This is Grace, we met at the jewelry show. " and she sent a picture of a beautiful middle age Asian lady next to another non-Asian older lady in an afternoon party setting.

I searched the picture online and could not find anything.

Me: sorry, I don't know you, you got the wrong number.

Grace: Sorry to bother you, I checked and you are right, I got one of the digit wrong.

Me: No problem, it happens. Have a great rest of your day!

Grace: LOL, are you saying that you received this type of txt all the time.

Me: No no no. Just once in a while.

Grace: By the way, where are you from? I am curious.

I did not reply and deleted the text history, but I kept the picture of that beautiful Asian lady. The communication stopped after that.

No, I am not sharing that picture here, at this time.