Rants and Stupid shit in Orange County

[Lift Her Up]

The thing that sucks, mongers seem to have huge problems with correct cities. Green Sign place, is squarely in City of Orange, as is Believe, yet both are on Tustin Street / Ave.

Places on Lake Forest Drive in Laguna Hills are frequently said to be in Lake Forest. List can go on and on.

I agree, there have been lots of mistakes on cities, particularly mixing up Tustin the street and Tustin the town. I have posted corrections to the most of the mistakes I've noticed. Also I've committed a couple of these mistakes myself. In that context, please be aware that Believe is in Santa Ana. See the attached Google Maps screenshot. Orange is in the lighter color towards the top.

Lift Her Up.

[Oc Amper]

It's a case of not knowing the difference between the US laws and China. If you don't believe you have to observe some case law yourself.

You don't need to explain. Paying for a nude massage is legal. Having a condom is legal. Having sex is legal too if you didn't pay for it. That's the hard thing to prove unless one of you are stupid to admit it. Or you say or text something on the phone that shows your illegal intention.

As for posting addresses, it's totally unnecessary. Admin has to check whether it's personal information. Just post the name of the establishment.

All that is true, all is legal. Unless one of the parties admits to LE that the transaction was paid for, LE will have a difficult if not impossible time convicting. Deals can be offered to either party, which shortcut the process. Mongers might not be able to withstand court action of any kind. Our ladies, might be offered one thing or another for turning on their parlor and the owners.

Addresses, this here.

NO PERSONALLY IDENTIFYING INFO! If you post anyone's last name or street address your membership will be deleted automatically.

One could interpret as to include massage parlors as well. I'm not sure I would. I seem to recall, admin2 at some point in time advised against it, but honestly no idea when / where in this forum that was.

For me, bottom line, give an accurate name, an accurate city, an accurate street, for most, that should be enough to look on google maps and find it without driving all over town.

The thing that sucks, mongers seem to have huge problems with correct cities. Green Sign place, is squarely in City of Orange, as is Believe, yet both are on Tustin Street / Ave.

Places on Lake Forest Drive in Laguna Hills are frequently said to be in Lake Forest. List can go on and on.

[James D 2004]

"Money, and condoms on anybody enjoying a nude massage don't count".

Really? It's for my girlfriend after the massage? Or how do you get away with this?

It's a case of not knowing the difference between the US laws and China. If you don't believe you have to observe some case law yourself.

You don't need to explain. Paying for a nude massage is legal. Having a condom is legal. Having sex is legal too if you didn't pay for it. That's the hard thing to prove unless one of you are stupid to admit it. Or you say or text something on the phone that shows your illegal intention.

As for posting addresses, it's totally unnecessary. Admin has to check whether it's personal information. Just post the name of the establishment.

[Taws6]

"Money, and condoms on anybody enjoying a nude massage don't count".

Really? It's for my girlfriend after the massage? Or how do you get away with this?

That has nothing to do with the topic at hand of posting addresses here.

If I say 123 main street, anytown USA and then give a detailed description of our session.

VS.

I went to this place next to a 7-11 and across the street from a broken streetlight, and a detailed description of the session.

That's the question.

[BraveNuPengwin]

Finally, a place for my stupid shit. I have said that some people don't know how OC works. I mean if you don't know anything or care about the law in the US, you just need to observe and you can find out if your argument is valid. This is all about posting "secret" information or not.

Irvine has been flip-flopping over the years. Now, MP's have no reviews, reported as non-erotic or closed. Lake Forest still has over 40 MPs and everything still goes on despite some LE trouble reported recently. Long ago, I think it's Westminster, required MPs to display signs that they are subject to random inspection, and for their own benefit, there were signs that said no sex provided (which is not true). Some cities do not allow doors or mandate a peephole. Cities can easily get rid of all MPs instead of catching evidence of prostitution in each of them.

Are there actually secrets? The city of Orange has over 80 MPs. I bet you can find prostitution in all of them. It has been the most reliable city for getting hand jobs from college girls paying for college. Green Sign has the 2nd highest number of reviews and 1st in trending. To report or not it's a personal matter. There are reasons to and others not. You can't blame other people. If nobody reports there will be no public forums. Somebody isn't going to MPs week in and week out. If you have a good run for months or years, treasure it and don't blame anyone for ruining it.

"Money, and condoms on anybody enjoying a nude massage don't count".

Really? It's for my girlfriend after the massage? Or how do you get away with this?

[Oc Amper]

I'm the one that posted in the massage thread questioning the practice of including the MP address in a post describing services. After reading all the feedback, some of which included I'm a dumbass (if the shoe fits), as well as taking note of many MP ads that provide lengthy descriptions of the illegal services they offer, all while including their address, I finally came to the only reasonable conclusion. You guys were right and I was wrong. Sorry to LC310, especially, as he took the brunt of my misguided stance. Mea culpa complete.

No one is worried about it, aside from the possible forum infraction.

It is a common misconception, that posting here makes a difference. This spot is not the only one, in fact a forum sponsor has details that one might not find here, in a conversation style forum.

I've seen news reports that mention this site and others. Sure, in some regard this might confirm what is going on behind closed doors at some spots. Some new council person might run into this.

So, don't worry, these places will come and go for reasons that most of us, including myself may never know the reasons. Could be, they made their buck and just want out, could be, LE or Code Enforcement actions, Health Department, or could go even higher. Sometimes it makes the news, other times it doesn't.

Some of these places have been hiding in plain sight for decades, while others will make a huge splash and force the hands of what ever authorities that can and willing to enforce.

[GentleSun]

Finally, a place for my stupid shit. I have said that some people don't know how OC works. I mean if you don't know anything or care about the law in the US, you just need to observe and you can find out if your argument is valid. This is all about posting "secret" information or not.

Irvine has been flip-flopping over the years. Now, MP's have no reviews, reported as non-erotic or closed. Lake Forest still has over 40 MPs and everything still goes on despite some LE trouble reported recently. Long ago, I think it's Westminster, required MPs to display signs that they are subject to random inspection, and for their own benefit, there were signs that said no sex provided (which is not true). Some cities do not allow doors or mandate a peephole. Cities can easily get rid of all MPs instead of catching evidence of prostitution in each of them.

Are there actually secrets? The city of Orange has over 80 MPs. I bet you can find prostitution in all of them. It has been the most reliable city for getting hand jobs from college girls paying for college. Green Sign has the 2nd highest number of reviews and 1st in trending. To report or not it's a personal matter. There are reasons to and others not. You can't blame other people. If nobody reports there will be no public forums. Somebody isn't going to MPs week in and week out. If you have a good run for months or years, treasure it and don't blame anyone for ruining it.t.

I'm the one that posted in the massage thread questioning the practice of including the MP address in a post describing services. After reading all the feedback, some of which included I'm a dumbass (if the shoe fits), as well as taking note of many MP ads that provide lengthy descriptions of the illegal services they offer, all while including their address, I finally came to the only reasonable conclusion. You guys were right and I was wrong. Sorry to LC310, especially, as he took the brunt of my misguided stance. Mea culpa complete.

[James D 2004]

Finally, a place for my stupid shit. I have said that some people don't know how OC works. I mean if you don't know anything or care about the law in the US, you just need to observe and you can find out if your argument is valid. This is all about posting "secret" information or not.

Irvine has been flip-flopping over the years. Now, MP's have no reviews, reported as non-erotic or closed. Lake Forest still has over 40 MPs and everything still goes on despite some LE trouble reported recently. Long ago, I think it's Westminster, required MPs to display signs that they are subject to random inspection, and for their own benefit, there were signs that said no sex provided (which is not true). Some cities do not allow doors or mandate a peephole. Cities can easily get rid of all MPs instead of catching evidence of prostitution in each of them.

Are there actually secrets? The city of Orange has over 80 MPs. I bet you can find prostitution in all of them. It has been the most reliable city for getting hand jobs from college girls paying for college. Green Sign has the 2nd highest number of reviews and 1st in trending. To report or not it's a personal matter. There are reasons to and others not. You can't blame other people. If nobody reports there will be no public forums. Somebody isn't going to MPs week in and week out. If you have a good run for months or years, treasure it and don't blame anyone for ruining it.

Are there any difficulties in finding the location of secret brothels, the k-houses, c-houses, enclave? I'll be an informant if you pay for it. The so-called private locations in OC on HX are only two, which have a run for several years, and before that, the 91/55 location. The two OC locations were also used by the k-houses before that.

California has a long history of don't ask don't tell, except for trafficking, for which LE has to do something every year to justify their extra funding. The trafficking charges failed on the last one in OC.

Now a little about the law. To catch prostitution you have to get caught paying for sex. So if you are posting valid information, people are helped by you. The MPs can handle that easily in case it happens. Money, and condoms on anybody enjoying a nude massage don't count. If they get busted it's not your fault. It's not like it's a drug house. You search and you get drugs as evidence. Even if LE is monitoring your postings online personally, they still have to catch you in the act.

[Grimmy23]

Hey Grimmy, always appreciate your posts -this was very informative. Why do you think some places get busted then? Is it due to complaints from locals or other businesses? Any thoughts on the kind of place or features of a place that makes it riskier for mongers?

All I can really say is always have your antenna up when patronizing any of these places. Trust your gut, and if your gut tells you that something doesn't look or feel right then keep your pants zipped and get the hell out of there. Busts are somewhat rare, but if you do get caught in a bust or random inspection, keep your mouth shut. You were there for a massage because your back hurt. If they just happen to kick a door open and catch you balls deep in a girl, you didn't pay for it. You came in and got a massage, and everything else that happened was a consensual act between two consenting adults.

What makes busts more likely? I would definitely recommend staying out of cities like Costa Mesa where they keep a close eye on massage shops, even the legit ones. A couple months back an MP opened up in Cerritos. It was reviewed here and I warned people not to go there because Cerritos is a city that doesn't tolerate MPs. A few people mocked me for that here and I even got a couple of threatening messages. I didn't have any inside knowledge, but I do know a few people who work for that city and I know they like to keep a pristine image. Sure enough that place wasn't around for more than a week or two after that discussion popped up here. No LE raid that I could find any evidence of. They most likely took the administrative route and just pulled their operating permit.

I've talked about how Downey is a city that tolerates MPs. If you know Downey, and I lived there for about 24 years, there are 4 or 5 MPs in town that have all been in business for 25-30 years. The city knows full well what goes on in there and they operate completely undisturbed. One of them is even directly across the street from a high school. But one day maybe they get a majority of people on City Council who decide they want their city "cleaned up," so they pass resolutions to shut down the MPs. In the massage industry you usually need what's called a Conditional Use Permit to be open. I won't get too far into the details, but when a CUP is required you have to have a public hearing before you are granted permission to open. That means you have to mail out notices to everyone living within a certain radius of your proposed business informing them of the date, time, and location of the public hearing so they can show up to voice their concerns. It also means you subject yourself to random inspections as I pointed out before, and operating under certain tightly specified conditions. Often the conditions are you must be closed by 10 PM, you can't have blacked out windows, nobody sleeps in the business under any circumstances, etc. If a city wants to shut down MPs, all they have to do is summon owners of those businesses to a special hearing in front of City Council where they have to defend themselves, and if the Council determines they are operating an illicit business they revoke their CUP right on the spot and it's game over. La Palma did that a few years ago. There used to be 3 or 4 AMPs in La Palma and they were more or less undisturbed for a lot of years, until one day LP City Council decided to go after them. I think in that case, the fact that one of them was operating in a medical office building right next door to a doctor's office had a lot to do with it. The doctor's office most likely got annoyed by all of the guys filing into the space next door to get serviced and complained to the city. Again I'm just guessing here. I have no inside knowledge other than knowing how the process works.

Human trafficking can be another trigger. There are places around here that use trafficked girls, and there are Federal task forces going after those. I tend to be on the lookout for signs of trafficking and just avoid those shops, mostly because I don't want to be taking advantage of women who may not be doing this by their own free will. Those shops are also probably more exposed for potential LE raids. Some signs I look out for are any sign of the girls living or sleeping in the shop, shops that get completely new lineups of girls every couple weeks, and any sign of physical or emotional abuse. Not that those are 100% signs that the girls are trafficked, but they're among the most telltale signs. It's a controversial subject when I talk about it here so do your research and draw your own conclusions.

[Taws6]

5. Once again, it doesn't take a LE sting to go after a MP. If a city wants a place shut down, there are 100 different ways they could do it without getting LE involved, and a lot of them can be done so quietly that the public won't even notice. It's not to say that MPs don't get busted, because we all know they do, but the main point is that speaking in code on here isn't going to prevent anyplace from getting busted.

Grimmy, thanks again for a wonderful, educational post.

Others might disagree with me, but posting more information, not less on what parlors do what will only help drive more business to parlors that have a broader menu.

The whole supply & demand dynamic, if demand is concentrated in the few full service shops, - ore demand. The supply will soon follow. The false advertizing places that don't provide, will get less business or would need to up their game to remain competitive.

But, perhaps I'm oversimplifying it. Speaking in codes does no one any good. IMHO.

[Oc Amper]

Hey Grimmy, always appreciate your posts -this was very informative. Why do you think some places get busted then? Is it due to complaints from locals or other businesses? Any thoughts on the kind of place or features of a place that makes it riskier for mongers?

No telling. Election time seemed to be a more common time for busts. February? Of each year is when Human Trafficking task forces do a nationwide enforcement.

Irvine many years ago, on McDurmott had a nice parlor, until as I recall some young attorneys moved in next door and was it a dry cleaners? Forget that detail, but they could hear the girls working or getting worked thru the walls. The attorneys sued landlords, called police, basically did it all to disrupt the parlor next door.

Lake Forest set their sights on Lake Forest Bodycentre. Recall, LF spent something like 400 k to shut down the parlor, which maybe only briefly shutdown, then sold or just another individual opened basically the same business in the same spot.

Details on this one, Korean lady, her son was into BMX racing or stunts. She bought a track and all. She had more than one parlor, in more than one city. She got to basically big time, and probably pissed someone off.

So, to sum up, why do some get busted, others not. Elections, pissing people off by too much traffic or not discreet enough, or just making too much money.

[LC310]

I'm posting this in response to the discussion in the MP thread about legal issues with MPs and posting "in code" on here as is commonplace with some people. As a reminder, I'm a legit spa owner so I know the legal landscape extremely well. There's a few things I can tell all of you.

1. Massage is not a licensed profession in California. In fact, California is the last remaining state that doesn't have a state massage license. What we have is a "certificate," and it is up to each individual city as to whether they want to require the certificate to practice massage or not. Most California jurisdictions do require the certificate. There are a few that only say one person on staff has to have the certificate and all of the other therapists are working under the CMT's supervision, but that's the fairly rare exception. The organization that issues the certificates is a civilian organization, not part of the government. As part of the process, they do vet massage schools and require a certain number of hours of instruction from a recognized massage school.

2. Since there is no California state massage board, regulation of massage establishments is entirely up to the individual cities. You can look up the municipal code for any city just by googling it. You will find that just about every city has a "massage establishments" section in their muni codes. Looking at that for any given city will tell you a lot. You will also find that a lot of cities just seem to copy their massage codes from other cities, as the language tends to be similar from city to city. Costa Mesa is one of the oddball ones that has weird rules that other cities don't have. Things like inward looking peepholes on the room doors, restrictions on light dimmers, and such.

3. One thing that is common is that by holding a massage establishment business license, you subject yourself to random inspections by either city officials or law enforcement. If either shows up, you cannot deny access. Therefore, law enforcement doesn't need to have a search warrant. They can just show up for their random inspection at any time unannounced and you have to give them access, and there has to be a manager on staff to provide them with any information that is needed. Some cities are far more strict on actually enforcing their muni codes than others. CM for example is a pain in the ass, even with massage establishments that are well known to be legit. Westminster doesn't really care that much.

4. The one thing I can say with 100% certainty is that city officials know full well what goes on in all of these places. They don't need to read USASG posts and sort through vague or coded language. They know who the jack shacks are, who the FS shops are, and exactly how things work. Some cities are tolerant of that and some aren't. I've posted before that I lived in Downey for a long time. I no longer live in Downey, but I had a cop in Downey tell me once that they have no interest in busting those places. They'd rather have that stuff going on in the MPs where it's contained, so long as the MPs don't become a nuisance. If they break up the MPs the end result is they just drive the sex work underground where it's harder to monitor and contain.

5. Once again, it doesn't take a LE sting to go after a MP. If a city wants a place shut down, there are 100 different ways they could do it without getting LE involved, and a lot of them can be done so quietly that the public won't even notice. It's not to say that MPs don't get busted, because we all know they do, but the main point is that speaking in code on here isn't going to prevent anyplace from getting busted.

Great informative post. You just have to look back to what happen in Inglewood back in 2007 or so when an investigation into a rape of a prostitute by cops and the Feds looking into SoCal MPs human trafficking turned up evidence that Inglewood cops were getting free sessions and sometimes while in uniform.

The cops and cities know exactly what is going on. It was a shame because many of those Inglewood MPs had Kgirl talent comparable to what the K-orgs have now. Oriental Acupressure on Manchester was probably the best of the bunch.

Net-Net is put the address in a review instead of a weird flex that you know more than the other guy.

[Moby Dirk]

I'm posting this in response to the discussion in the MP thread about legal issues with MPs and posting "in code" on here as is commonplace with some people. As a reminder, I'm a legit spa owner so I know the legal landscape extremely well. There's a few things I can tell all of you.

1. Massage is not a licensed profession in California. In fact, California is the last remaining state that doesn't have a state massage license. What we have is a "certificate," and it is up to each individual city as to whether they want to require the certificate to practice massage or not. Most California jurisdictions do require the certificate. There are a few that only say one person on staff has to have the certificate and all of the other therapists are working under the CMT's supervision, but that's the fairly rare exception. The organization that issues the certificates is a civilian organization, not part of the government. As part of the process, they do vet massage schools and require a certain number of hours of instruction from a recognized massage school.

2. Since there is no California state massage board, regulation of massage establishments is entirely up to the individual cities. You can look up the municipal code for any city just by googling it. You will find that just about every city has a "massage establishments" section in their muni codes. Looking at that for any given city will tell you a lot. You will also find that a lot of cities just seem to copy their massage codes from other cities, as the language tends to be similar from city to city. Costa Mesa is one of the oddball ones that has weird rules that other cities don't have. Things like inward looking peepholes on the room doors, restrictions on light dimmers, and such..

Hey Grimmy, always appreciate your posts -this was very informative. Why do you think some places get busted then? Is it due to complaints from locals or other businesses? Any thoughts on the kind of place or features of a place that makes it riskier for mongers?

[Grimmy23]

I'm posting this in response to the discussion in the MP thread about legal issues with MPs and posting "in code" on here as is commonplace with some people. As a reminder, I'm a legit spa owner so I know the legal landscape extremely well. There's a few things I can tell all of you.

1. Massage is not a licensed profession in California. In fact, California is the last remaining state that doesn't have a state massage license. What we have is a "certificate," and it is up to each individual city as to whether they want to require the certificate to practice massage or not. Most California jurisdictions do require the certificate. There are a few that only say one person on staff has to have the certificate and all of the other therapists are working under the CMT's supervision, but that's the fairly rare exception. The organization that issues the certificates is a civilian organization, not part of the government. As part of the process, they do vet massage schools and require a certain number of hours of instruction from a recognized massage school.

2. Since there is no California state massage board, regulation of massage establishments is entirely up to the individual cities. You can look up the municipal code for any city just by googling it. You will find that just about every city has a "massage establishments" section in their muni codes. Looking at that for any given city will tell you a lot. You will also find that a lot of cities just seem to copy their massage codes from other cities, as the language tends to be similar from city to city. Costa Mesa is one of the oddball ones that has weird rules that other cities don't have. Things like inward looking peepholes on the room doors, restrictions on light dimmers, and such.

3. One thing that is common is that by holding a massage establishment business license, you subject yourself to random inspections by either city officials or law enforcement. If either shows up, you cannot deny access. Therefore, law enforcement doesn't need to have a search warrant. They can just show up for their random inspection at any time unannounced and you have to give them access, and there has to be a manager on staff to provide them with any information that is needed. Some cities are far more strict on actually enforcing their muni codes than others. CM for example is a pain in the ass, even with massage establishments that are well known to be legit. Westminster doesn't really care that much.

4. The one thing I can say with 100% certainty is that city officials know full well what goes on in all of these places. They don't need to read USASG posts and sort through vague or coded language. They know who the jack shacks are, who the FS shops are, and exactly how things work. Some cities are tolerant of that and some aren't. I've posted before that I lived in Downey for a long time. I no longer live in Downey, but I had a cop in Downey tell me once that they have no interest in busting those places. They'd rather have that stuff going on in the MPs where it's contained, so long as the MPs don't become a nuisance. If they break up the MPs the end result is they just drive the sex work underground where it's harder to monitor and contain.

5. Once again, it doesn't take a LE sting to go after a MP. If a city wants a place shut down, there are 100 different ways they could do it without getting LE involved, and a lot of them can be done so quietly that the public won't even notice. It's not to say that MPs don't get busted, because we all know they do, but the main point is that speaking in code on here isn't going to prevent anyplace from getting busted.

[TheZorak]

The one time I need to go for a drive and waste my time, the Enclave crew isn't working LOL. It's been a couple days. I hope they're okay and it was just caution for the storm. The storm that was nothing but some rain and humidity. Their absence shows how much they contribute to the site. It'd be so empty and boring without them, sigh.