"Sugar Babies" and "Arrangements"

[ReffingMan94]

This forum would be great if we went back to reviewing & recommending Sugar babies.

My basic modus operandi is to avoid escorts as much as possible, but sometimes the line is too blurry to navigate, and at the end of the day I just want to get laid. My policy when I do need to operate in the grey area is that if they behave like a hooker, I am going to treat them as such and likewise if they behave as a daddy's girl they get an entirely different type of treatment from me.

Case in point, I once met a young hottie who I would categorize as a sugar baby and not escort (at least not yet), but she had been in the scene for nearly a couple of years, so she wasn't new to the game -- and I got the impression she was committed to the sugar lifestyle rather than regular dating. In other words, she had given up on dating in her age bracket and was strictly going for older high income guys.

Via texting, I explained my offering in terms of an ongoing arrangement and we texted back and forth a few times before setting up a meet. She started negotiating a higher rate and was being fairly stubborn about it, it was late in the evening, I was horny, and she was extremely hot so I agreed a middle ground between her terms and mine which was $100 more than my standard offering for per-meet, but this was in an expensive market anyway so I thought no big deal. When she showed up, it became clear to me she did not fully understand the monthly amount I was originally offering (and what all was involved) and was more focused on getting a per-meet price. As if she was assuming I would never call her again, or maybe that I was somehow not to be trusted. She did not demand payment up front but seemed like she wouldn't be at ease until I gave her a reason to trust me, so I did something that I never do. I pulled out the cash first, and said "here, put that in your purse". I am against the practice of paying before the deed, but made this one exception. Once I did that, it was like I had turned off the stress switch, she became very comfortable around me.

But, by pacifying her with cash up front, it made her a hooker in my eyes. So as she is sitting there on the couch, starting to kind of cuddle and talking about whatever she felt like talking about, I just unzipped my pants, pulled out my cock with one hand and pulled her head down into my lap with the other hand, stuffing her mouth so I didn't have to listen to any more talk. I then proceeded to fuck her like the paid sex object she demanded to be, making sure I got my moneys worth. Came inside, didn't ask for permission. Wham bam thank you mam and you may go home now thanks and nice meeting. Never called her again. Beautiful girl and a nice fuck, but negotiating rates and paying up front is something hookers do, so that's not going to be a repeat situation for me.

[OliverNP]

It is a full spectrum, on the site, that runs from stone cold hookers, at one extreme, to women who are interested in platonic dating, on the other. I actually talked to one like that who hadn't had sex in 27 years and was only on the site to find male friends. The rest of the girls are at different levels, between those two extremes.

I sometimes treat it like an escort experience, and other times I (somewhat foolishly) treat it like quasi-romantic dating. And I have even done both in the same day, with two different girls.

Generally, the women are on the site for the money, and most of them enjoy sex, so that is just a somewhat enjoyable way to get paid. And if they have more fun on a date than they expect, then that's just a bonus.

My basic modus operandi is to avoid escorts as much as possible, but sometimes the line is too blurry to navigate, and at the end of the day I just want to get laid. My policy when I do need to operate in the grey area is that if they behave like a hooker, I am going to treat them as such and likewise if they behave as a daddy's girl they get an entirely different type of treatment from me.

Case in point, I once met a young hottie who I would categorize as a sugar baby and not escort (at least not yet), but she had been in the scene for nearly a couple of years, so she wasn't new to the game -- and I got the impression she was committed to the sugar lifestyle rather than regular dating. In other words, she had given up on dating in her age bracket and was strictly going for older high income guys.

Via texting, I explained my offering in terms of an ongoing arrangement and we texted back and forth a few times before setting up a meet. She started negotiating a higher rate and was being fairly stubborn about it, it was late in the evening, I was horny, and she was extremely hot so I agreed a middle ground between her terms and mine which was $100 more than my standard offering for per-meet, but this was in an expensive market anyway so I thought no big deal. When she showed up, it became clear to me she did not fully understand the monthly amount I was originally offering (and what all was involved) and was more focused on getting a per-meet price. As if she was assuming I would never call her again, or maybe that I was somehow not to be trusted. She did not demand payment up front but seemed like she wouldn't be at ease until I gave her a reason to trust me, so I did something that I never do. I pulled out the cash first, and said "here, put that in your purse". I am against the practice of paying before the deed, but made this one exception. Once I did that, it was like I had turned off the stress switch, she became very comfortable around me.

But, by pacifying her with cash up front, it made her a hooker in my eyes. So as she is sitting there on the couch, starting to kind of cuddle and talking about whatever she felt like talking about, I just unzipped my pants, pulled out my cock with one hand and pulled her head down into my lap with the other hand, stuffing her mouth so I didn't have to listen to any more talk. I then proceeded to fuck her like the paid sex object she demanded to be, making sure I got my moneys worth. Came inside, didn't ask for permission. Wham bam thank you mam and you may go home now thanks and nice meeting. Never called her again. Beautiful girl and a nice fuck, but negotiating rates and paying up front is something hookers do, so that's not going to be a repeat situation for me.

[Peter Johnson]

In defense of those guys treating it like an escort experience, there are a lot of escorts in the bowl too..

It is a full spectrum, on the site, that runs from stone cold hookers, at one extreme, to women who are interested in platonic dating, on the other. I actually talked to one like that who hadn't had sex in 27 years and was only on the site to find male friends. The rest of the girls are at different levels, between those two extremes.

I sometimes treat it like an escort experience, and other times I (somewhat foolishly) treat it like quasi-romantic dating. And I have even done both in the same day, with two different girls.

Generally, the women are on the site for the money, and most of them enjoy sex, so that is just a somewhat enjoyable way to get paid. And if they have more fun on a date than they expect, then that's just a bonus.

[OliverNP]

In defense of those guys treating it like an escort experience, there are a lot of escorts in the bowl too. One of the time sinks on Seeking for me is trying to sort through those who are by the hour hos and those that are more like a mistress. I've had some incredible long term SBs, so it's worth the effort, but it definitely takes time and patience.

The same is true about any place that women hang go with the intention (or willingness) to meet guys. It includes bars, "regular" online dating sites, strip clubs, etc.

In my bar hopping days, it was not unusual to hit on a girl and then have her drop a hint that pay for play was available. Sometimes I was able to turn it into free sex, sometimes not. Get a little alcohol down any girl and the line between a hooker and a civilian can get quite blurred. Women pursue sex for the sake of the sexual experience sometimes, but the hot ones know that they can get that need easily met plus some money, and many of them figure why not do so.

But the thing is with Seeking, the site itself is actively taking measures to stomp out escort activity. So, despite the fact they are there, it's ultimately a pretty stupid place for either an escort or a john to be, since there are so many other ways to get what they both want. I say the same thing about pic sellers and buyers. For the love of fuck they have dedicated specialty sites for that. Use them.

[FarFarAway]

Oliver is spot-on with this analysis. I read so many posts by guys who can't seem to find success in the bowl. If you can't find it, you really need to take a look at yourself, your goals and your approach because You are the one thing in common with all your failures. Insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, right?

I cruise a lot of the SB boards between Richmond and Jacksonville, and Atlanta has certainly become the go-to place for developing and honing your strategies. And I can certainly agree with the "keep them at arm's length" philosophy. If you don't want a traditional relationship, you Must keep them guessing and working for it. Once they decide you're hooked, their efforts to please begin to drop off. When that happens, don't be afraid to cut it off and move on. You found her, you'll find another.

I will throw in my 2 cents. The experience some of you guys are reporting, it I think is most available to dudes in their 40's. I am past Medicare eligibility, there isn't a lot of opportunity for that for me. However, I do have experience w / long term SBs who were getting minimal sugar and we really had great relationships, intellectually, emotionally, and physically, we just never even got close to BF / GF thing. That includes a 40's MILF and a 20's coed. I have a SO.

The Richmond thread has been the de facto national sugaring thread for some time, the 6+ years I've been on this board. If Atlanta wants to take over that would be OK. It really is helpful to have a central place to go to for how-tos about all aspects of this lifestyle.

[NewAnonymousName]

If you treat the girls like a mistress you will have a lot of success in the bowl, sugaring is what the early 20th century mistress has turned into. Successful men would have a mitress who they saw a couple of times of week back then it was widely accepted.

A lot of guys who are knew to sugaring treat it like an escort experience which it isn't.

In defense of those guys treating it like an escort experience, there are a lot of escorts in the bowl too. One of the time sinks on Seeking for me is trying to sort through those who are by the hour hos and those that are more like a mistress. I've had some incredible long term SBs, so it's worth the effort, but it definitely takes time and patience.

[SeekingHead]

I think there are a number of reasons guys have bad experiences or low success rates in the bowl. Here we probably read about them more simply because the forum is geared toward the escort scene, and if a guy goes into the sugar lifestyle as an alternative to escorts, they are probably undermining their own success and would be better of just sticking to escorts. Sugaring, when done optimally, really is different than the simple transactional matter of paying for sex. The good SBs will always be able to detect the guys that haven't figured that out and will actively avoid them, thus the disappointment we sometimes read about here.

If you treat the girls like a mistress you will have a lot of success in the bowl, sugaring is what the early 20th century mistress has turned into. Successful men would have a mitress who they saw a couple of times of week back then it was widely accepted.

A lot of guys who are knew to sugaring treat it like an escort experience which it isn't.

[OliverNP]

Oliver is spot-on with this analysis. I read so many posts by guys who can't seem to find success in the bowl. If you can't find it, you really need to take a look at yourself, your goals and your approach because You are the one thing in common with all your failures. Insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, right?

I think there are a number of reasons guys have bad experiences or low success rates in the bowl. Here we probably read about them more simply because the forum is geared toward the escort scene, and if a guy goes into the sugar lifestyle as an alternative to escorts, they are probably undermining their own success and would be better of just sticking to escorts. Sugaring, when done optimally, really is different than the simple transactional matter of paying for sex. The good SBs will always be able to detect the guys that haven't figured that out and will actively avoid them, thus the disappointment we sometimes read about here.

[Hal1957]

Oliver is spot-on with this analysis. I read so many posts by guys who can't seem to find success in the bowl. If you can't find it, you really need to take a look at yourself, your goals and your approach because You are the one thing in common with all your failures. Insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, right?

I cruise a lot of the SB boards between Richmond and Jacksonville, and Atlanta has certainly become the go-to place for developing and honing your strategies. And I can certainly agree with the "keep them at arm's length" philosophy. If you don't want a traditional relationship, you Must keep them guessing and working for it. Once they decide you're hooked, their efforts to please begin to drop off. When that happens, don't be afraid to cut it off and move on. You found her, you'll find another.

I can relate to that. To some extent I do enjoy the dating aspect, but I mean dating literally; in other words I enjoy taking them out for drinks / music / food etc. and just being in the presence of crowds while having a stunner that's approx 1/3 my age on my arm etc. But by no means am I interested in any sort of real or long-term relationship with any SB. This is simply because I already have a LTR that meets all of my relationship needs with the exception of my need for sex on the side. I have met a few that were really special, and I enjoyed all aspects of their personality and company so much that I thought to myself "if I didn't already have someone, I would probably not be able to send this one away".

I actually think that the fact that I am in a LTR and not interested in anything but superficial fun is a big part of the reason so many of these girls start trying to reel me in as a boyfriend. Women can sense when a man is not emotionally available and there is something in their nature that makes them want what they can't have -- their desire for the guy's attention becomes amplified, as does their desire to please. The hot ones, in particular, have such a high opinion of themselves and are so used to a relentless onslaught of male attention and clingy dudes, that when they meet a guy who seems to already have his needs met, they start trying to find ways to be needed.

So, as a strategy for SDs in general, I can definitely recommend the idea of having some relationship (gf, wife whatever) where the heart goes, keeps it out of the sugar equation entirely, and separates it from how your dollars are spent. But then, continue to sugar in a way that doesn't jeopardize the relationship. This not only fends off emotionally charged expenditures, but as mentioned invokes that magnetism that will have SBs competing for attention and offering lots of free pussy, sometimes on the first or second date. I've had some that tried to rope me into a "valid sugarless dating situation" in the first hour of the first date, before the FC even happened.

[OliverNP]

That all makes a lot of sense.

My MO is a little different. I am single, and enjoy dating younger chicks. So if they end up wanting it to be more of regular relationship, and I am into them, then I am generally 100% down with that. My challenge in my home turf is most of the chicks these days tend to be more pro about it all.

I can relate to that. To some extent I do enjoy the dating aspect, but I mean dating literally; in other words I enjoy taking them out for drinks / music / food etc and just being in the presence of crowds while having a stunner that's approx 1/3 my age on my arm etc. But by no means am I interested in any sort of real or long-term relationship with any SB. This is simply because I already have a LTR that meets all of my relationship needs with the exception of my need for sex on the side. I have met a few that were really special, and I enjoyed all aspects of their personality and company so much that I thought to myself "if I didn't already have someone, I would probably not be able to send this one away".

I actually think that the fact that I am in a LTR and not interested in anything but superficial fun is a big part of the reason so many of these girls start trying to reel me in as a boyfriend. Women can sense when a man is not emotionally available and there is something in their nature that makes them want what they can't have -- their desire for the guy's attention becomes amplified, as does their desire to please. The hot ones, in particular, have such a high opinion of themselves and are so used to a relentless onslaught of male attention and clingy dudes, that when they meet a guy who seems to already have his needs met, they start trying to find ways to be needed.

So, as a strategy for SDs in general, I can definitely recommend the idea of having some relationship (gf, wife whatever) where the heart goes, keeps it out of the sugar equation entirely, and separates it from how your dollars are spent. But then, continue to sugar in a way that doesn't jeopardize the relationship. This not only fends off emotionally charged expenditures, but as mentioned invokes that magnetism that will have SBs competing for attention and offering lots of free pussy, sometimes on the first or second date. I've had some that tried to rope me into a "valid sugarless dating situation" in the first hour of the first date, before the FC even happened.

I said "as a strategy" even though that's not the reason I'm in an LTR, I'm just playing the hand I was dealt so to speak. But if something ever happened to my relationship, I would probably look for ways to get back into that position.

I think to some extent, unless SBs are really in it strictly as an escorting mechanism, by default they are likely to put up a wall and be a bit more pro / UTR by default if they sense a guy is single, emotionally available, and interested in more than sex from her. They may relax that over time once they see that the guy isn't clingy or needy. I do the exact same thing with someone new. I've been accused of having a "player mentality" because of this (I guess in the sugar scene that's the male personality equivalent of UTR / pro), in other words not giving a fuck enough in the beginning until I know the girl is cool and will not hound me relentlessly and text me all day every day.

[Member #6718]

I agree that 23-ish is somewhat of a "magic spot", in terms of the right combination of being interested enough in a "real" relationship such that they aren't focused on money, but not yet into the 26+ category where they are already exhibiting signs of "OMG my clock is ticking I'm almost 30" etc.

But I guess I was trying to convey that 26+ becomes my "be careful" threshold in terms of going out of my way to be sure I'm not getting involved in a clingy / drama situation where she is expecting me to be a boyfriend.

I don't generally equate 26+ with necessarily becoming more pro -- I've certainly known the types that gravitate in that direction but I think in general something about my sugar workflow seems to be good at avoiding the pro-minded or UTR escort types. But yes in general, if they are of that type then it does get worse with age.

That all makes a lot of sense.

My MO is a little different. I am single, and enjoy dating younger chicks. So if they end up wanting it to be more of regular relationship, and I am into them, then I am generally 100% down with that. My challenge in my home turf is most of the chicks these days tend to be more pro about it all.

[OliverNP]

Funnily enough I have had the opposite experience. I find 26+ they start getting a bit pro about it. For some unknown reason my magic age spot is 23 LOL. This year I have had at least three 23 year olds who have ended up dating me fairly normally, sugar free or "light" sugar (just nice dinners, events, little help with the odd bill etc). I think I may be getting into a relationship with one of them.

I agree that 23-ish is somewhat of a "magic spot", in terms of the right combination of being interested enough in a "real" relationship such that they aren't focused on money, but not yet into the 26+ category where they are already exhibiting signs of "OMG my clock is ticking I'm almost 30" etc.

But I guess I was trying to convey that 26+ becomes my "be careful" threshold in terms of going out of my way to be sure I'm not getting involved in a clingy / drama situation where she is expecting me to be a boyfriend.

I don't generally equate 26+ with necessarily becoming more pro -- I've certainly known the types that gravitate in that direction but I think in general something about my sugar workflow seems to be good at avoiding the pro-minded or UTR escort types. But yes in general, if they are of that type then it does get worse with age.

[Member #6718]

26 is right about the age that I find this mindset tends to emerge in them. I've actually come to prefer the 18-25 year old range, because I can be fairly sure they aren't going to start dropping hints that they want to be my sugar-free girlfriend after the second fuck session. 26 or over and it seems to happen more often than it doesn't. I understand why some are in search of that, because once they've decided they want that it can lead to some amazing sugar-free sex, but I find there are side effects that occur when their mind is in "girl friend mode". Like they start wanting to know too much about me, they text constantly and otherwise become clingy, etc. I'm really only in it for the sex and fun, I don't need the relationship responsibilities. For that reason I go a bit younger. It still happens to some extent if they are over 21, but I haven't had much problems with clingy behavior in the 18-20 age range.

Funnily enough I have had the opposite experience. I find 26+ they start getting a bit pro about it. For some unknown reason my magic age spot is 23 LOL. This year I have had at least three 23 year olds who have ended up dating me fairly normally, sugar free or "light" sugar (just nice dinners, events, little help with the odd bill etc). I think I may be getting into a relationship with one of them.

[FarFarAway]

Few things to add:

Most gift cards (like Vanilla) will not work if used for a recurring subscription so only use them for a one-time fee.

Retail vanilla card only allows you to set a PIN online, not a billing zip code.

A vanilla account lets you buy virtual vanilla cards online but does not seem to allow you to add a retail purchased (physical) card to the vanilla account or a billing zip code to a retail card.

If you add a new seeking account, use a new payment method because seeking will cross reference payment methods and ban new account.

So. I'm not an expert, I learned this over a past few frustrating daysI'm going to use a Publix card as suggested below.

You definitely got it right when you said you aren't an expert. Track down my posts in the past month on this topic. Use a OneVanilla prepaid debit card. Those can be hard to locate. They are in packaging w / a vertical window. You must Phone in to the 800# to set a zip code for the card so it can be "used for pay at the pump and online purchases". Once you do that, it will work seamlessly first time for online purchase of membership on seeking. I only ever get a month at a time. No reason to do more.

[OliverNP]

The girls I look for and wind up dating are going through a phase in life where they're either focused on finishing school or starting their career and they're tired of the shit they have to deal with from guys their own age. They want an older man who treats them with respect, doesn't make them pay for dinner or drinks and knows how to keep them cumming over and over. If you get a good one she'll be mature enough to accept it for exactly what it is and give you the ride of your life for a year or two until she gets it out of her system and decides she's ready to find someone (else) to settle down with.

I've been fortunate enough to have done this several times; the girl I've been seeing for about a year now is an extraordinarily sweet, pretty 26 year old that falls squarely into the description above. She's a college grad, working hard to establish her career and is doing pretty well for herself. She doesn't want to even think about looking for a husband until she's 30. But she does want a good man in her life to keep her physically satisfied. We're in an exclusive relationship and we're both pretty happy about it. She does consider herself my girlfriend, and to be completely honest I'm good with that. She doesn't just respect my boundaries for our relationship, she embraces them. It's truly 100% drama free. But most importantly, she puts it on me hard every time I see her and acts like I'm doing *her* a favor. It's really hard to explain just how far she goes out of her way to accommodate all of my needs and make sure I'm always completely fulfilled ... it's almost too good to be true. I get all I can handle (and then some) and it doesn't cost me a dime outside of the dinners we share together. It's really tough to complain.

26 is right about the age that I find this mindset tends to emerge in them. I've actually come to prefer the 18-25 year old range, because I can be fairly sure they aren't going to start dropping hints that they want to be my sugar-free girlfriend after the second fuck session. 26 or over and it seems to happen more often than it doesn't. I understand why some are in search of that, because once they've decided they want that it can lead to some amazing sugar-free sex, but I find there are side effects that occur when their mind is in "girl friend mode". Like they start wanting to know too much about me, they text constantly and otherwise become clingy, etc. I'm really only in it for the sex and fun, I don't need the relationship responsibilities. For that reason I go a bit younger. It still happens to some extent if they are over 21, but I haven't had much problems with clingy behavior in the 18-20 age range.