"Sugarbabies" / "Arrangements" Amateurs or Not?

[IluvSmellyFish]

Looks like I confused a post from FredMoore and attributed it to you. Sorry about that (your name was referenced in the post, which may be why I attributed it to you).

Like FredMoore, I personally prefer discussing the arrangement before hand for a variety of reasons. I also prefer talking about it in person, face to face, for a variety of reasons, including not having a paper trail. Mostly I don't want, as FredMoore so aptly put it, a hot girl hunting me down because of differences in expectations.

IMHO, everything is situational. So hypothetically speaking, if a girl was extorting me for money by threatening me with physical assault charges, and seemed like she was crazy enough to go to the police, I would probably try to get a paper trail ASAP. Since I personally would rather deal with fighting a solicitation charge than a physical assault charge. Hypothetically if I was being held up after walking into a sbs house, I would probably call the cops since I'd rather be in jail than dead. If I got taken for my money (which has happened) I would do (and have done) what the OP did. Which is post info on this website to warn others.

While being arrested has the potential to damage ones life, a good lawyer should be able to keep you out of jail (depending on how careful one is). So while I tend to view things sitiationally, my general rule of thumb is that if physical harm to you or someone else is in imminent danger of physical harm, the police should probably be involved.

JL is unique and must be date worthy for these babies (picture brad Pitt) Unless you are an uber generous tipper, and I mean $300 up per visit, you run the risk of having a pissed off or disappointed Baby. My ATF 19 yr old is a case in point. We never discussed money. She came to my apartment and we ended up having the most energetic sex of my career. I dropped $200 in her purse and took her home. When I called her for a 2nd date she said her goal was $800 for her years books for school. I explained that 3 more times together and she had it banked, but she did not see it that way. Words were exchanged -tightwad and asshole featured prominently in the tirade. You do not want an angry girl hunting you down. So get it straight up front. The good news is I got to bang an incredibly hot girl who would never have come for $$ had she known in advance.

[JZLizard]

JL. I agree that your approach of not ever discussing allowance is probably a best practice. Of course, as you yourself noted in a prior post, not setting expectations can lead to having a pissed off SB who is upset at the gift you provided if she thinks it is too low.

Would you mind to cite the post you're referring to? If I conveyed it that way, I must have done a careless job of communicating my thoughts, or simply been thinking in another context. What I may have been trying to say is that *if* you enter into some sort of agreement with a girl, then the expectations on both ends should be well understood. By that I mean if you've been to the FC with someone a few times, but you want her to be exclusive arm candy, not see other SDs, move in or whatever and are offering a specific allowance for that, then yes I do believe it is important for both sides to know what they are getting into.

But I have never advocated agreement to pay for the first FC visit or a per-fuck amount. That aspect of my position has never changed. I also have never tried to tell someone else to change the methods that work for them in their particular geographic market, I only offer advice based on how I do it. I've mentioned sometimes I have to cut them loose before I ever meet them because they want to talk money, but it's not like women are in short supply, so it's worth it to focus on quality versus quantity and just move on to someone else who doesn't demand a money agreement before trying each other out in the FC.

I look at it like this: I want SBs who genuinely like sex. The last thing I want is to pay someone to ACT like they are enjoying fucking me when they really aren't. So, if they really do want to fuck me, I shouldn't have to wave a handful of cash, travelers checks, booksfull of S&H Greenstamps or whatever just to get them to drop their panties -- that's an act of desperation. Sure, there will be some girls that demand that, there's a name for them -- escorts (and there is a time and place for escorts I just don't think SD dating is either). There is an entire additional category of women who are attracted to successful men, would like the financial security of dating one, but also genuinely enjoy fucking them. The approach I recommend tends to attract that type and scare off all the rest.

As FredMoore noted, making sure a SB relationship ends well helps to avoid situations that involve Blackmail / Extortion.

I am all for anything that prevents the blackmail or extortion, but to me, the first step in minimizing that sort of thing is to avoid contact with folks who are already involving themselves in illegal activity in the first place. Any SB (or female) for that matter is capable of turning on us, but an escort is more likely to have other issues (lack of stability, drug problems, perhaps even existing criminal record etc.) that makes them more likely candidates for trouble.

I agree that we should exercise good social skills and judgment at all times to minimize trouble, regardless of the situation. I just think that folks need to be very careful before involving the police at all. Try to get out of the situation before it gets to that point. There was a story on here a while back about a guy that had been seeing these two girls regularly for many months. One day almost out of no where they get pissed of at him while riding in his car, and pull a knife and threaten him with it. So he bolts, abandoning his car, and calls the cops. They tell the cops he has been giving them "allowance" to meet him and all three of them go to jail, his mug on the news. You would think he would know them well enough after a few months of regular fucking to either avoid or defuse a situation like that, but you can never be sure with women. They are all just one PMS episode away from doing something unimaginable. So, in order to prepare for that day, we should be sure we didn't leave a paper trail of any illegal behaviors.

I also want to say that in terms of pros, I'm no angel. One thing I like to do is hit up strippers for takeout. Those that will are pros by definition. I'm not looking down on those who do hire escorts in anyway, there is a time and place for them. I'm just saying that once an SD visits a girl regularly, there is an increased chance of something to go wrong and into the direction of blackmail/extortion. It's better to be prepared when the shit hits the fan with nothing like emails or texts proving you offered money for sex.

[FTP1999]

JeezLizard and others.

Please don't jump to conclusions with limited details here.

I saw her before, at that same apartment, with a friend of hers, nothing sexual. This was not the first meet.

No offense man but did you really think this was a sugar baby with a tagline like "if you want it come get it"? ... Just for the record, no legitimate SB would ever invite you to her place for the first meeting. If she does that, she is a hardened pro.

[IluvSmellyFish]

JL. I agree that your approach of not ever discussing allowance is probably a best practice. Of course, as you yourself noted in a prior post, not setting expectations can lead to having a pissed off SB who is upset at the gift you provided if she thinks it is too low. As FredMoore noted, making sure a SB relationship ends well helps to avoid situations that involve Blackmail / Extortion. Of course if you're good at reading people, and have a pretty good sense of whether a SB will think a gift is too low, or have the ability to avoid girls who will do something crazy if she doesn't like the gift you gave her, then as an SD one wouldn't ever have a need to ever discuss expectations. You are probably experienced enough in life and the bowl to able to cull pots before trips to the FC and wouldn't ever put yourself in such a situation, but there are others, who are newer to the bowl, who lack that ability. For them, a trip to the FC might not ever happen without discussion of expectations at some point.

I also agree that involving the cops in any situation can ruin family life, career, etc. Which is why I caveated my recommendation to the OP on the thread we're discussing by pointing out that someone with an SO might not want to deal with the repercussions of involving the law. That being said, my recommendation for involving the law was meant to be caveated generally for if and when physical violence was involved. Your response to my post appears to only have included half of my recommendation. The other relevant portion of my response to the OP is in quotes below.

"Depending on how everything happened, you could report her to the police. Of course, if you gave her your money voluntarily and then left because of the very awkward situation created when her friends came in yelling and screaming, the cops will probably tell you that you're wasting your time. If her friends came in with a weapon and threatened you for your money, that's a different situation entirely and probably should be reported to the cops (unless you have an SO and don't want to have to explain why you have to go to court to testify against some young girl who scammed you). ".

IMHO, if a guy who is new to the Sugar Scene is threatened with physical violence for their money by a SB scammer, that individual should be going to the police, unless it has the potential to destroy their life (e. G. Their relationship with their SO / destroy their career, etc.). If he doesn't go to the police, then scammers who are threatening people with physical violence remain in the bowl, have no incentive to take their act elsewhere, will continue to scam others, and might actually end up hurting someone (which will definitely draw attention to the sugar scene).

On the other hand, if the guy just got taken for a ride (I. E. No violence or threat of violence involved), then tough luck, lesson learned, and no need to go to the cops since they'll probably tell him that no crime was committed and that he shouldn't be going to the houses of strangers with money in hand and expectations of intimacy.

Just my two cents.

The problem is that once someone has exchanged an e-mail agreeing to an amount of money for the FC, in the eyes of most courts they are now a john. There have been some cases posted here to USASG in the past where the SD was arrested simply because the girl told the cops that money was exchanged for intimacy. The court may have problem getting an actual conviction depending on how much someone is willing to spend on a lawyer, but by that time the SD's mugshot is the first thing to come up in a Google search on his name, in perpetuity, affecting his career / family etc.

This is one of the reasons I never talk money with girls. Bang-them, then gift them the way I see fit. No discussion of money ever takes place.

[JZLizard]

As a general rule, I don't provide the allowance until after the date has ended. Also, unlike Backpage scams, there are no laws that I'm aware of that criminalize being a SD. If you find yourself in an awkward situation like that again, you can always pull out your cellphone, dial 911, and hit the speaker phone. Remember, you're a SD, not a "john".

The problem is that once someone has exchanged an e-mail agreeing to an amount of money for the FC, in the eyes of most courts they are now a john. There have been some cases posted here to USASG in the past where the SD was arrested simply because the girl told the cops that money was exchanged for intimacy. The court may have problem getting an actual conviction depending on how much someone is willing to spend on a lawyer, but by that time the SD's mugshot is the first thing to come up in a Google search on his name, in perpetuity, affecting his career / family etc.

This is one of the reasons I never talk money with girls. Bang-them, then gift them the way I see fit. No discussion of money ever takes place.

[JZLizard]

Where's a good place to report scammer rom SeekingArrangement.com?
She runs a typical scam. It happened to me, avoid:
She lures you into her place with promises of sex, takes your money, as you are taking clothes of, her friends knock on the dor and come in, yelling and scremaing.
You get the point.
Sweet girl, sweet body, total scam.
Avoid.
See her pictures below.

No offense man but did you really think this was a sugar baby with a tagline like "if you want it come get it"?

I know there are escorts that use SB sites as alternative marketing, but if there was ever anything of value to be gained from this gigantic monolithic thread full of nothingness, it should be that it taught one or two people to understand the difference between an escort and an SB. And yes, if you patronize escorts, eventually you'll get scammed. Real SBs might be gold diggers, they might be GPS, they might be bitches, sometimes they are downright nuts, extortion and blackmail is even possible just as it is with dating any crazy girl -- but in general you don't have to worry about the lower echelon of hooker robberies like this type of scam.

However, if people continue to use the SD / SB scene as a front for escorting, it's only a matter of time before regulation finds a way to shut down the activity and put the websites out of business. It's no different than revoking the liquor license of bars and nightclubs because of evidence of recurring illegal activity -- serving beer isn't illegal, but if residents complain or if cops keep getting called, it won't matter in the end, it will be bye-bye fun times.

When I first saw this thread, I thought it was going to be a legitimate attempt to educate the masses on the difference between SBs and escorts.

Yet somehow I get the feeling that zero progress has been made.

Just for the record, no legitimate SB would ever invite you to her place for the first meeting. If she does that, she is a hardened pro.

[IluvSmellyFish]

You could probably report the individual to the site and ask that her profile be suspended. That being said, she could just as easily set up another profile. Depending on how everything happened, you could report her to the police. Of course, if you gave her your money voluntarily and then left because of the very awkward situation created when her friends came in yelling and screaming, the cops will probably tell you that you're wasting your time. If her friends came in with a weapon and threatened you for your money, that's a different situation entirely and probably should be reported to the cops (unless you have an SO and don't want to have to explain why you have to go to court to testify against some young girl who scammed you).

As a general rule, I don't provide the allowance until after the date has ended. Also, unlike Backpage scams, there are no laws that I'm aware of that criminalize being a SD. If you find yourself in an awkward situation like that again, you can always pull out your cellphone, dial 911, and hit the speaker phone. Remember, you're a SD, not a "john".

Posting her pics here on this forum is helpful since it will prevent any forum members / lurkers / readers from contacting her. A good lesson though.

Where's a good place to report scammer rom SeekingArrangement.com?

She runs a typical scam. It happened to me, avoid:

She lures you into her place with promises of sex, takes your money, as you are taking clothes of, her friends knock on the dor and come in, yelling and scremaing.

You get the point.

Sweet girl, sweet body, total scam.

Avoid.

See her pictures below.

[HollywoodGuy]

After meeting up with her after a long weekend and blowing my fun money I only had $$$ to get the conversation going. I slipped the cash to her while having drinks at a bar. We had the discussion after FC, which may have helped. Her expectation was up to $5 K. Settled on $1. 6 K min. A month and continuing great dates. Working towards the monthly has been in the form of gifts mostly. She wanted a spa treatment, a parking decal, etc. We never mentioned a certain number of days per month. She's introduced me to a couple of her girlfriends and we're starting to meet regularly. A couple times for coffee and conversation. FC is setup for this weekend.

I'm even pretty impressed with myself in this situation. I banged her so thoroughly, she should be paying me. She mentioned that all the gifts and the great sex was like hitting the lottery.

Hopefully the 1. 6 k a month covers at least 1 overnight visit a week.

[Bowtie]

Smelly, I think you are on to something regarding the last point. The site is what's your price, not sure of their rules however she does have email access so I don't think its related to her cost nor did she seem overly concerned about security or safety. The canned response raised the flag to me, your idea about trying to start a Skype for pay thing seems very likely. I'll see where it goes, maybe get a free show before I dump her ass! Glad I got my regulars, damn glad!

I can't speak for SD4 me, but my understanding is that SA lets babies with pictures message for free, but limits the number of messages they can send. The rules on SA are different for SDs and SBs, and are set up to maximize the number of SBs who will post pics, while trying to get everyone to pay for premium memberships. I noticed that even the price structure is different. Pricing for SB premium membership is about 1/2 or 1/3 of what a SD has to pay.

If a young lady doesn't want to pay for a premium membership that will allow unlimited messaging, and is trying to use one of these sites to increase volume of daddies or to avoid posting an ad on BP, moving to kik lets her message for free after making contact through the site.

A Skype session lets a SB or SD confirm that the other party is as pictured. Like us, many of these SBs show up to a date and find that the guys pictures are 10 years old and 50 lbs ago. Not as big of a deal for a SB since they are there for the financial sugar, but some SBs are picky. It also give them the chance to "vet" the guy to make sure he isn't a pyscho or crazy. Not that I believe you could figure that information out during a Skype session, but I suspect it helps some girls who are too scared to meet in person at first.

Also, there are some SBs that will try to convince you to have and "online" Skype relationship akin to paying for a camgirl session. I guess there are enough guys out there who are willing to paypal a girls account to see her strip and play with herself that some girls push the Skype "relationship" thing.

[IluvSmellyFish]

I can't speak for SD4 me, but my understanding is that SA lets babies with pictures message for free, but limits the number of messages they can send. The rules on SA are different for SDs and SBs, and are set up to maximize the number of SBs who will post pics, while trying to get everyone to pay for premium memberships. I noticed that even the price structure is different. Pricing for SB premium membership is about 1/2 or 1/3 of what a SD has to pay.

If a young lady doesn't want to pay for a premium membership that will allow unlimited messaging, and is trying to use one of these sites to increase volume of daddies or to avoid posting an ad on BP, moving to kik lets her message for free after making contact through the site.

A Skype session lets a SB or SD confirm that the other party is as pictured. Like us, many of these SBs show up to a date and find that the guys pictures are 10 years old and 50 lbs ago. Not as big of a deal for a SB since they are there for the financial sugar, but some SBs are picky. It also give them the chance to "vet" the guy to make sure he isn't a pyscho or crazy. Not that I believe you could figure that information out during a Skype session, but I suspect it helps some girls who are too scared to meet in person at first.

Also, there are some SBs that will try to convince you to have and "online" Skype relationship akin to paying for a camgirl session. I guess there are enough guys out there who are willing to paypal a girls account to see her strip and play with herself that some girls push the Skype "relationship" thing.

Question, what would be the advantage or reason for a young lady to push to take the conversation to Kik or Skype? I get a copy / paste response from a young lady from one of the baby sites, busted her out on it, got a real response back but the entire time she is pushing for Kik and Skype over texting, phone call or email. Scam? Thanks!

[IluvSmellyFish]

One of the main reasons not to give out real life information. Even my regular babies don't have my real life personal information. I use a throwaway e-mail account and a trac phone for all communications. I know a lot of brothers don't use hotels because of the added expense, but this is also one of the reasons why I'll never bring a baby back to my personal residence. For single SDs in the bowl, not that big of a deal (unless the girl is threatening to claim that you physically assaulted her and will go to the police her if you don't pay her out. At which point if you brought her back home then it won't matter if you gave her a fake name and number since she knows where you live) but for SDs with SOs its a whole different ball of wax.

Sorry to hear about your situation. I'm assuming that the blackmail / extortion scam relates to threats to expose your activities to your SO, report you for what she is now claiming to be unwanted physical contact to authorities, and / or show up at your place of work to make a scene and damage your career.

A few things to consider:

1. If you keep paying her out what she wants, when she demands it, then you give her no incentive to stop.

2. If you don't have a written trail helping to document your side of the story (I. E. This woman is extorting me for money) then you put yourself at greater risk if she is threatening you by claiming you physically assaulted her and will go to the police. If she goes through with the threat, your life will suck no matter what, but if you have a written trail proving that she was threatening / extorting you, you increase your chances of nipping things in the bud and proving your side of the story. Rather than turning it into a "he said, she said. ".

3. A person has to have a lot of nerve to follow through with a threat and its all about who has more to lose. If you can convince her that you no longer have anything to lose (e. G. You're going to divorce your wife anyway, your switching jobs, you have a written trail exposing her extortion and so the authorities won't believe her claims), then you might be able to shift the balance of power. Prepare yourself as best you can, and then call her bluff.

At the end of the day though, if you don't do anything to stop the behavior, then you're going to have to be prepared to be her personal ATM until she move on (which isn't likely if you're her personal ATM) or until you decide to put an end to her behavior and call her bluff. The longer you wait, the more money you will end up paying out.

Just my two cents. If you share more details (by posting or via PM), I'm happy to provide more thoughts if you're interested.

Blackmail / extortion.

Anyone here have experience they care to share?

Dealing with it, and not well.

[FredMoore]

Blackmail / extortion.

Anyone here have experience they care to share?

Dealing with it, and not well.

Been blackmailed 2 times. One was an Escort and one SB. The problem is only if they know who you are IRL. They threaten to make your activities public. Paid both off basically the value of a visit with them. Told them I would call the police if they came back to the well again, and they did not.

How do you avoid it?

1) keep anonymous is the best but hard to do in a longer term relationship.

2) stay away from Nando 1's Desperately poor girls have nothing to lose and much to gain.

3) end arrangements well. Do not blow them up and piss them off.

[DogSun]

Blackmail / extortion.

Anyone here have experience they care to share?

Dealing with it, and not well.

It might be helpful if you gave us more info on how she is trying to blackmail you.

[Bowtie]

Question, what would be the advantage or reason for a young lady to push to take the conversation to Kik or Skype? I get a copy / paste response from a young lady from one of the baby sites, busted her out on it, got a real response back but the entire time she is pushing for Kik and Skype over texting, phone call or email. Scam? Thanks!

[HoyaSvnFgr]

So what was the agreed upon amount for the dime girl? And everyone has their own version of a ten. I,m tall but gravitate towards the shorter ones.

After meeting up with her after a long weekend and blowing my fun money I only had $$$ to get the conversation going. I slipped the cash to her while having drinks at a bar. We had the discussion after FC, which may have helped. Her expectation was up to $5 K. Settled on $1. 6 K min. A month and continuing great dates. Working towards the monthly has been in the form of gifts mostly. She wanted a spa treatment, a parking decal, etc. We never mentioned a certain number of days per month. She's introduced me to a couple of her girlfriends and we're starting to meet regularly. A couple times for coffee and conversation. FC is setup for this weekend.

I'm even pretty impressed with myself in this situation. I banged her so thoroughly, she should be paying me. She mentioned that all the gifts and the great sex was like hitting the lottery.