"Sugarbabies" / "Arrangements" Amateurs or Not?

[Literal2]

Lit my view has always been that, where men and women come together and sex is involved, it's all prostitution. The woman is bartering sex for something she wants, whether it be cash up front, an allowance,"commitment", a roof over her head and meals on the table, whatever. The only difference is what the woman convinces herself is "OK" or "moral" or within the boundaries of her self-respect.

I think this is true in many cases but sometimes you run into a girl, like my truck driver sb14 last week, who has been a long time without sex and just wants a man to caress and penetrate her and make her cum.

Many years ago I read one of those "How to pick up girls" books. Most of the book was bullshit, but one part of it has always stuck with me, and it kind of correlates to Spitfire's "scale line". The book documented that sexually there are 4 types of women: the Honest Digger - the woman who just loves sex for sex's sake, without any need to assign emotional baggage to the act; the Sexual Barterer - the woman who primarily sees sex as something to trade to get her physical, emotional and / or financial needs met; the Hung Up About It - the woman who has significant moral, emotional or psychological issues associated with sex, to the point that it significantly inhibits or prevents her from enjoying or even having it or it affects those other emotional / psych issues; and the Physically Incapable - the women with injury, deformity or condition that makes sex physically impossible or too painful to perform. There is some overlap in groups - a Barterer may have specific hang-ups against specific sex acts or styles, etc. - but in general the Barterers make up the largest group, followed by the Hung-Ups in a disturbingly large second place, third are the Incapables, and by far the smallest group is the Diggers. The book was written in the 80's, but I see no reason to think that classification system or the percentages have changed materially in the 30 years since.

Interesting stuff. I never heard this before.

Long long ago in a galaxy far far away, I was young, single, decent looking, and worked steadily as a performing musician in a fairly large metro area for a few years; it was a time when I never went home alone if I didn't want to. Out of the hundreds of women I've bedded in my life, I can say that I've known exactly 2 that were true Diggers. The rest were Barterers and/or Hung-Ups. It's an iron-clad fact that any woman you meet where sex is the primary determinate from the start will be a Barterer, but it's important to remember that she probably has Hang-Ups too. The trick is to determine as early as possible what her needs and hang-ups are, so you can cater to the former and avoid the latter.

Damn. I should have been a musician. Hundreds of women. Very impressive.

I've known women who learned young that being a SB can be a career, and who had the looks and talent to pull it off (at least until the looks go, as they always do.) I've known women that really had been slammed with financial issues beyond their ability to cope, and this was their only way out without turning full pro. But most of the women I've known doing this are doing it because they have a Hang-Up: they simply can't handle money. They make enough to live on at their regular job, but can't make a budget and stay within it. The excuses range all over, but the bottom line is they have champagne tastes on a beer budget and spend beyond their means. When a girl is always pushing for more money or contacts you between regular installments because something in her life has blown up and she needs extra, chances are she's one of this type. This type is usually more trouble than they're worth.

Yeah I think this is about right. Thanks.

[Literal2]

I tend to think in terms of a scale. It's linear, so it really doesn't allow for nuances which we all know exist. On one end you have 'regular' girls and on the other end escorts. Perhaps something like this:

Regular-Easy-Sl*t-Gold Digger-Sugar Baby-Stripper-Escort.

-|-|-|-|-|-|-|

Some girls might be combinations of these, but it's a starting point.

We could combine this with CWL's four types and do some in depth research with as many attractive females as we can find.

[Literal2]

Lit:

Out of all the girls in a typical place there could none or one that I might consider popping a relavent question on. This seems to occur after some mutual stimulating discussion and interest. I let them know that I am not a regular attendee of these type of places and won't be around much so if we are going to become "friends" then now is the time. Never had any issue from mgmt; not once.

Lets face it, all these girls need some help, in usually more than one area. The ones that need major help aren't a candidate for my program, I am primarily looking for someone that you could sit and have a half decent conversation with for more than a few minutes. Also never had a girl be offended at the question. I'm sure this comes up often for them and my guess is most guys are just too darned crass about it to get anywhere. I have observed many other guys in these places and just forming that opinion from afar.

I have had some success at offering business advice to one who was intent on opening her own business. So we make a trade; legal and biz advice for the use of some of her assets. She has gotten lots of info from me and it is the best option she has come across in a while since she has been able to implement the advice and get her biz going part time. It can be so much more than the Ben Franklins in your pocket, although that remains a big part of the program too, because w / o those the attempts would be moot. Just another angle. Varoom

This sounds like a precise approach Vroom. Very selective too. Just a few girls to ask in each city where there are strip clubs. It's great you find girls you like to hang with this way. You must have good conversational skills and you're nice to give them useful advice.

As for me, I just like to fuck pretty girls who aren't worn out from fucking other guys. I like to chase them around a little bit, but I prefer not to have long conversations with them and I don't want them turning to me for advice.

[Literal2]

She turns out to be a very small breasted girl which she talks about all the time as it embarrasses her.

I don't care all that much, variety is the spice of life.

She showed up on time at the hotel bar. After 10 minutes I said time was short and gave her the room number and I left the bar. She came up in about 15 minutes by which time she was totally bombed. What? How'd she do that?

One shot of tequila she said. More like a bunch of shots is my guess. Anyway, nice slim 27-year old hardbody. BUT. She doesn't like her nipples touched, doesn't like oral, doesn't kiss much. She talked a streak about how she didn't want it to be just one time with us and she's not a working girl. I just listened and said we'd both have to see how we felt afterwards.

She said ok and took her panties off."What I like is penetration," she said. I obliged. After a few minutes mish, she said she wanted it from behind. I flipped her over and continued thrusting. While I'm doing this she keeps talking between her gasps. At first I ignore her as I'm getting into it, but then I thought I heard her say "Will you fuck me and my friend together?" I said what? She repeated it. So, still thrusting away, I quizzed her about the friend who she says is blonde and beautiful.

I say how about next week? She says whenever you want. I popped and flopped over on my back. She kept talking about doing it with her friend."I'll call her right now," she said. No, call her later, if it works that's fine but I won't count on it, I said. She explained she's not a lesbian this is just a really good friend from her childhood and they do it from time to time. I said ok, sounds great. I looked at my watch. She said, did you buy this room (it was a nice hotel). Yes. She said,"Can I have the room for the rest of the night?" I said no, I don't know you well enough, you might have a party with 100 people and break everything. I'm going to have to throw you out now.

Her mood changed 180 degrees."Why are you so mean?" she asked."Where's my money?" Up to this point there had been no mention of money at any time. I gave her some sugar. She counted it twice. Then she left with pissed off look, staggering down the hall from the alcohol.

So I don't know what to make of this. Her hardbody is a good fuck but there's no foreplay or any of the things I love to do. She said she came, and she was squirming around and moaning a lot so maybe she did. But this business with her friend? I have no idea if she is serious or just talking out her ass drunk. Very weird. Good fuck though.

[CantWinLosin]

Lit, I get those contacts a lot too, although none so far have been for a doubles tag-team. The ones I get tend to say they're from some city in the US but their written english has that stilted and sometimes tense-confused pattern common to eastern-European natives.

And absolutely, they're scams; the girls are probably interested in a situation where some filthy-rich SD will support them in the lifestyle to which they'd like to become accustomed, but you can bet that their primary goal is to get that US visa to get them out of the poverty they almost certainly face in Russia.

A few years ago,"60 Minutes" did one of their long-form expose's about the Russian Bride web-sites industry that was pretty illuminating. While some of these girls are honestly looking just for an American husband who will treat them well, many have ulterior motives. They showed the story of one girl who married an American, then convinced her new husband to pay for bringing her brother over and getting him a permanent visa. At which point she packed up and left the husband because the "brother" was actually her Russian lover.

[CantWinLosin]

Lit my view has always been that, where men and women come together and sex is involved, it's all prostitution. The woman is bartering sex for something she wants, whether it be cash up front, an allowance,"commitment", a roof over her head and meals on the table, whatever. The only difference is what the woman convinces herself is "OK" or "moral" or within the boundaries of her self-respect.

Many years ago I read one of those "How to pick up girls" books. Most of the book was bullshit, but one part of it has always stuck with me, and it kind of correlates to Spitfire's "scale line". The book documented that sexually there are 4 types of women: the Honest Digger - the woman who just loves sex for sex's sake, without any need to assign emotional baggage to the act; the Sexual Barterer - the woman who primarily sees sex as something to trade to get her physical, emotional and / or financial needs met; the Hung Up About It - the woman who has significant moral, emotional or psychological issues associated with sex, to the point that it significantly inhibits or prevents her from enjoying or even having it or it affects those other emotional / psych issues; and the Physically Incapable - the women with injury, deformity or condition that makes sex physically impossible or too painful to perform. There is some overlap in groups - a Barterer may have specific hang-ups against specific sex acts or styles, etc. - but in general the Barterers make up the largest group, followed by the Hung-Ups in a disturbingly large second place, third are the Incapables, and by far the smallest group is the Diggers. The book was written in the 80's, but I see no reason to think that classification system or the percentages have changed materially in the 30 years since.

Long long ago in a galaxy far far away, I was young, single, decent looking, and worked steadily as a performing musician in a fairly large metro area for a few years; it was a time when I never went home alone if I didn't want to. Out of the hundreds of women I've bedded in my life, I can say that I've known exactly 2 that were true Diggers. The rest were Barterers and/or Hung-Ups. It's an iron-clad fact that any woman you meet where sex is the primary determinate from the start will be a Barterer, but it's important to remember that she probably has Hang-Ups too. The trick is to determine as early as possible what her needs and hang-ups are, so you can cater to the former and avoid the latter.

I've known women who learned young that being a SB can be a career, and who had the looks and talent to pull it off (at least until the looks go, as they always do.) I've known women that really had been slammed with financial issues beyond their ability to cope, and this was their only way out without turning full pro. But most of the women I've known doing this are doing it because they have a Hang-Up: they simply can't handle money. They make enough to live on at their regular job, but can't make a budget and stay within it. The excuses range all over, but the bottom line is they have champagne tastes on a beer budget and spend beyond their means. When a girl is always pushing for more money or contacts you between regular installments because something in her life has blown up and she needs extra, chances are she's one of this type. This type is usually more trouble than they're worth.

[Spitfire]

I tend to think in terms of a scale. It's linear, so it really doesn't allow for nuances which we all know exist. On one end you have 'regular' girls and on the other end escorts. Perhaps something like this:

Regular-------Easy----Sl*t-----Gold Digger-------Sugar Baby-----Stripper-----Escort
---|-----------|--------|------------|----------------|-------------|-----------|

Some girls might be combinations of these, but it's a starting point.

[Varoom]

Vroom, do you ask multiple girls if they will do private parties on one visit to a club? Does management ever warn you off when you do this? When the girls say no, are they offended?

Lit:

Out of all the girls in a typical place there could none or one that I might consider popping a relavent question on. This seems to occur after some mutual stimulating discussion and interest. I let them know that I am not a regular attendee of these type of places and won't be around much so if we are going to become "friends" then now is the time. Never had any issue from mgmt; not once.

Lets face it, all these girls need some help, in usually more than one area. The ones that need major help aren't a candidate for my program, I am primarily looking for someone that you could sit and have a half decent conversation with for more than a few minutes. Also never had a girl be offended at the question. I'm sure this comes up often for them and my guess is most guys are just too darned crass about it to get anywhere. I have observed many other guys in these places and just forming that opinion from afar.

I have had some success at offering business advice to one who was intent on opening her own business. So we make a trade; legal and biz advice for the use of some of her assets. She has gotten lots of info from me and it is the best option she has come across in a while since she has been able to implement the advice and get her biz going part time. It can be so much more than the Ben Franklins in your pocket, although that remains a big part of the program too, because w / o those the attempts would be moot. Just another angle. Varoom

[Madaboutmax]

Wow Mad. You are very patient. Over a year to close the deal.

It's like farming multiple fields. I wouldn't take the time to prep one fields if I wasn't harvesting something from another. A man's got to eat.

Not that I haven't closed the deal on the first meeting a couple of times, but those girls were usually escorts on the side and it was much more of a business transaction. I like the idea of finding girls that are hot and not as easy to close the deal. If you work on it over time and develop some chemistry it can be a lot of fun. I do have to set boundries and let them know I'm married and not looking to change that.

I post about my dancer experiences here because it is much more like the SB relationship.

[Literal2]

Here's an example of the kind of unsolicited offer you get from outside your geographic area on an sb website. These girls say they are in Russia and have PHDs or some shit like that and are also models. They want to come to the USA and be a threesome with their sd. I've attached one photo. I think this is a scam, but if you want to pursue, the girls' email is supposedly nvictoriakh@gmail.com And their skype name is victorialovemila. Just don't tell them I sent you, please.

[Literal2]

A pro would be a lot more direct and focused with a specific quid pro quo; she shows up, sex is had, cash is exchanged, and bam, you're done, and even if you're a regular, each time is still a one-off deal.

A sugardaddy / baby is a looser arrangement more like an easy girlfriend paired with a generous boyfriend; you may have dates and do things together other than sex, but there's still the implicit understanding that she's being so "good" to you mostly because you're being so "good" to her and vice-versa.

A pro is likely making her living that way with multiple clients, whereas a sugarbaby may have a real job or schooling or may be a "rent girl" who's put up in an apartment with all expenses paid but still exclusive to her sugardaddy.

A "sugarship" seems about halfway between an actual relationship and outright prostitution, and some may veer more towards one side or the other, but not quite far enough to call it really just one or the other.

I think this is about as good a definition as I've seen. The folks that say all sbs are really pros seem to be saying all women who are motivated at least partly by money are pros. That includes gold diggers and women who marry a guy for his money which includes a lot of women. There are many different kinds of sbs. Look at the difference between the kind of sb Golf is looking for and the kind I'm looking for. Look at the dancers Vroom and Max are getting. The sbs Spit and Cool pursue don't sound like escorts to me. Two of my sbs, sb13 and sb8 probably would be escorts if they were better looking, but they would starve as escorts even though they are available to be fucked. SBs are different, like the man says.

[Literal2]

SB15 never responded to the lunch invitation for yesterday she asked me for. I expect she will be back in contact eventually because I think she's a pro or semipro.

SB16 is 27, slim, a health care services provider, she says. She want to meet first in the hotel bar today but knows I have booked a room for us at the hotel. Her voice is intelligent and feminine and she has a nice laugh. Not much to go on but I think Johnson will find her acceptable. I don't have a lot of time so my plan is to spend no more than 15 minutes in the bar.

SB3 asked for a hotel meet for next weekend. I agreed but won't make any arrangements unless she stays in touch throughout next week. What a cock tease. Johnson wants access to her though. Badly.

[Literal2]

Wow Mad. You are very patient. Over a year to close the deal.

You mention you are in your 40's and not a bad looking guy.

I don't have the patience or the time to jack with these gals for that time span. I'm in my early 60's, nothing more than avg looks at best, puffy around the middle. So I'm not impressing anyone in that respect. What that all adds up to is I don't think I am going to whoo them off their feet; so I don't really try that hard. It is a numbers game speaking to a lot of gals, getting a sense of who fits my profile of acceptable candidates and if they do, I merely ask for an outside appt. It is a yeah or nay as far as I am concerned, or maybe a phone number from them to discuss it later, or meet for lunch to see where we can go from there. It is not a case of me going back time after time to ink a deal here. Not that detailed of a transaction at all for me. We either agree to meet and get necked, or we agree that we won't. Ther than possibly a lunch or a call later, in some cases.

One las tthing. Relative to the younger good looking guy vs the older not so hottie. Of the two the older guy is a lot less threatening. There is little chance that these gals are falling for some old geezer, they are merely having a need met and there is little mystery beyond that. Just how it seems to make sense and work for me, anyway.

Vroom, do you ask multiple girls if they will do private parties on one visit to a club? Does management ever warn you off when you do this? When the girls say no, are they offended?

[Literal2]

I'm going to jump into the discussion after watching from the sidelines.

I'm also try to establish "SB type" relationships with dancers at clubs. Unlike escorts I get to see what she looks like and see if their is any chemistry prior to the event. The downside is that it takes while to cultivate over many visits. I have worked on some dancers sporadically for over a year before closing the deal. I have a handful that have become regulars and a number that were not worth repeats.

My current regulars almost all took a while to develop, but are hot and very into it.

Not a bad option if you have the $'s, are a gentlemen with a good sense of humor. I'm mid-40's and not bad looking, but I'm not a twenty something stud.

I like dancers!

I like dancers too and you get to inspect some high quality goods very thoroughly before you commit to anything. But I had the same long run up that you describe and I'm not doing dancers at the moment.

This dancer tech is good stuff. Thanks for describing your experiences.

[Literal2]

SB13 showed up on schedule for a drink. I had asked her to a hotel but she wanted this first. I'm glad she did. She wore sweats, is about 25 as she claims and has the face of a hound. Much worse than her pix. Big boobs and squashy ass from what I could tell. Even Mr Johnson asked, what the fuck are we doing here? It's a good thing sb14 took care of him the day before because he can get unreasonable if he hasn't had pussy for a few days. She said I was her second sd. I gave her a little sugar for her babysitter as I said I would and told her to get in touch later. It will have to be a true pussy emergency before I see that girl again.