Massage Parlor Reports

[Dr Willy]

(...) You are a wealth of knowledge.

I wouldn't say that. Frankly, I don't actually know crap. However, I can Google the sh!t out of most anything! LOL!

Do AMP's fall under Health Care Provider? To me, an AMP is like getting your nails done at a nail spa or getting your hair cut at a barber shop. This is just me though.

What it IS to you and what it IS to the State of Florida Government are very definitely two different things.

In Florida, the Florida Board of Massage Therapy was legislatively established to ensure that every Massage Therapist practicing in this state and every Massage Establishment meet minimum requirements for safe practice. Massage Establishments (the actual Florida 'legal' term for what we all call AMPs) are inspected and investigated by the Florida Department of Health, and, as of July 1st, 2024, are required to comply with Florida House Bill 197 (click that red link for the full text of the bill).

As the "service" is considered Massage "THERAPY", it falls under Health Care and HIPAA would apply, however, as referenced below, LE is all but exempt from being restricted by HIPAA restrictions. The thin protections offered by HIPAA in this environment only means that the AMP can't share your personal information with... anybody else... but LE gets a free peek.

See there... I just made Google 'sing and dance a fancy show-tune'! HA!

OK, now then ... beyond Google and into "Opinion" mode: In my opinion, LE isn't about to go into an AMP, collect customer information, and run out to knock on doors to "embarrass" men at their homes in front of their families. I suppose they COULD, but that's a LOT of work for no benefit, as there is no way to prove a crime has been committed. There is actually no way to PROVE that any AMP logbook, with YOUR NAME in it, was filled out by YOU! Your buddy, your neighbor, your high school bully could have put down your name/address/phone number ... totally without your knowledge! Finally, as has been noted many times by those here with a calm disposition, there is nothing illegal about going into a Massage Establishment and getting a massage.

That said, I DO think the purpose of the requirement to collect client name/address/phone number is more to scare clients away and reduce the business volume of the businesses involved. How many of you guys are skittish about giving out that info? How many of you guys might choose NOT to go to an AMP out of this fear/concern? While it's (most likely) no actual threat, that fear/concern is running through many of your thoughts, even though it needn't be.

[PipeFitter315]

Are there any AMPs with good looking girls non Asian? Providing the same services as Asian of course. Thanks for any information.

[Trex3648]

Do AMP's fall under Health Care Provider? To me, an AMP is like getting your nails done at a nail spa or getting your hair cut at a barber shop. This is just me though.

[CallMeMatthew]

Good to know. You are a wealth of knowledge.

-cmm.

According to the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act (read the government summary document HERE):

A HIPAA covered entity also may disclose PHI to law enforcement without the individuals signed HIPAA authorization in certain incidents, including:
... read the full list of all EIGHT "incidents" described on page 2 of the summary document at the link above.

Basically, HIPAA isn't going to "protect" anybody here from LE looking at AMP records.

[Dr Willy]

(...) I do think the inspector can ask to see the forms from the clients. I would think that is a violation of HIPAA but perhaps not.

According to the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act (read the government summary document HERE):

A HIPAA covered entity also may disclose PHI to law enforcement without the individuals signed HIPAA authorization in certain incidents, including:
... read the full list of all EIGHT "incidents" described on page 2 of the summary document at the link above.

Basically, HIPAA isn't going to "protect" anybody here from LE looking at AMP records.

[CallMeMatthew]

Dr. Willy. Thank you for the great information. The details matter. I like your idea of using some sort of made up company I'd. I was at an AMP recently that asked me to fill out a form and I gave them the bare minimum. As I read the statute there is no penalty to us for providing false information. However, I do think the inspector (and one had been to the AMP I mentioned that day. Says they will come yearly) can ask to see the forms from the clients. I would think that is a violation of HIPAA but perhaps not.

-cmm.

No. That is incorrect.

As I read HB197, they are not required to scan, or even view, your ID. The law simply states they are required to "verify", but does not demand examination of government issued ID.

There is only the suggestion that medical records (protected, to some extent, by HIPAA), MAY be used to satisfy record keeping, but this is only ONE WAY to do so, and does not require a specific method. Additionally, HB197 wording clearly states "A copy of the clients or patients photo ID may be used to provide the full legal name and home address." By use of the word MAY, there can be no REQUIREMENT.

How they choose to "verify" would seem to have been left ambiguous by the wording of the law, so if LE wants to criticize their verification procedures, LE would have a difficult time enforcing any sort of government issued ID check... as the law fails to demand that action on the part of the Massage Establishment.

Based on the fact that NO other place has (yet) reported to be demanding ID's, I'm simply suggesting a customer should patronize THOSE places. At the time that ALL places start demanding ID's, then the game has changed and different rules would apply. Someone let me know when that happens.

Regarding use of a "fake ID", McLovin' or otherwise, Florida Law stipulates that it's illegal to possess and/or display a fake, forged, stolen, counterfeit or borrowed driver's license or state-issued identification card. The statute (Florida Statute 322.212) makes the mere possession of a fake ID a crime, and the ID does not need to be used for any particular purpose. If you are caught with a fake ID, the penalty can be filed (at the discretion of the States Attorney) as a third-degree felony carrying a jail sentence of up to 5 years with a fine up to $5000 (that's a lot of hobby-dollars).

So, if one wanted to employ use of a "fake ID", make sure it's a bogus Employment Badge or Identification, or some other NON-GOVERNMENT issued ID, with the necessary information to satisfy any AMP asking for ID. However, if an AMP is asking/demanding an ID, I'll just bet they won't take anything but a Driver License or State ID, simply because they're already being overly zealous about the perceived requirements.

By the time this all works itself out in a few months, all of the hullabellew will likely have amounted to a giant "Nothing Burger" (I don't know WHAT Louella Parsons was thinking when she coined that stupid term, but it's the dumbest metaphor I've ever heard!).

[Bing789]

[Commercial Message deleted by Admin]

[OlderThanRocks]

Feel free to use a name of a local "piece of shit" politician.

LOL -- there are too many options!!

[FlMongerer]

Blue ocean they scanned my I'd.

Yeah, I'm not doing that.

[Jeff1976]

So your strategy is to drive the AMPs out of Florida because they won't be able to make money as they're being forced to do this?

The way I figure it. If the businesses don't have any way around doing this -- I doubt they're going to be required to truly validate that the I'd isn't fake.

So we can all buy fake IDs or just quickly Photoshop, print out, and laminate a fake copy of your real one that you use for the hobby.

Just don't try to board a plane with it.

Realistically, with all of the on-line business card options (damn near free), it would seem that a fake business card would satisfy the need to verify I'd. Feel free to use a name of a local "piece of shit" politician, and leave a copy at the front counter.

[OlderThanRocks]

No. That is incorrect.

As I read HB197, they are not required to scan, or even view, your ID. The law simply states they are required to "verify", but does not demand examination of government issued ID.

There is only the suggestion that medical records (protected, to some extent, by HIPAA), MAY be used to satisfy record keeping. but this is only ONE WAY to do so, and does not require a specific method. Additionally, HB197 wording clearly states "A copy of the clients or patients photo ID may be used to provide the full legal name and home address." By use of the word MAY, there can be no REQUIREMENT.

How they choose to "verify" would seem to have been left ambiguous by the wording of the law, so if LE wants to criticize their verification procedures, LE would have a difficult time enforcing any sort of government issued ID check... as the law fails to demand that action on the part of the Massage Establishment.

My bad. Admittedly I haven't read the law. I believed that showing a photo ID was going to be a requirement based on what others have said here. Thanks for clarifying.

Regarding use of a "fake ID", McLovin' or otherwise, Florida Law stipulates that it's illegal to possess and/or display a fake, forged, stolen, counterfeit or borrowed driver's license or state-issued identification card. The statute (Florida Statute 322.212) makes the mere possession of a fake ID a crime the ID does not need to be used for any particular purpose. If you are caught with a fake ID, the penalty can be filed (at the discretion of the States Attorney) as a third-degree felony carrying a jail sentence of up to 5 years with a fine up to $5000 (that's a lot of hobby-dollars).

So, if one wanted to employ use of a "fake ID", make sure it's a bogus Employment Badge or Identification, or some other NON-GOVERNMENT issued ID, with the necessary information to satisfy any AMP asking for ID. However, if an AMP is asking/demanding an ID, I'll just bet they won't take anything but a Driver License or State ID, simply because they're already being overly zealous about the perceived requirements.

Also, good to know -- but I wonder if that's one of those laws that's rarely prosecuted -- unless they really want to bust you.

I know that there are quite a few Fake IDs already in circulation and being used all the time to get into bars, etc.

[Dr Willy]

So your strategy is to drive the AMPs out of Florida because they won't be able to make money as they're being forced to do this?

No. That is incorrect.

As I read HB197, they are not required to scan, or even view, your ID. The law simply states they are required to "verify", but does not demand examination of government issued ID.

There is only the suggestion that medical records (protected, to some extent, by HIPAA), MAY be used to satisfy record keeping, but this is only ONE WAY to do so, and does not require a specific method. Additionally, HB197 wording clearly states "A copy of the clients or patients photo ID may be used to provide the full legal name and home address." By use of the word MAY, there can be no REQUIREMENT.

How they choose to "verify" would seem to have been left ambiguous by the wording of the law, so if LE wants to criticize their verification procedures, LE would have a difficult time enforcing any sort of government issued ID check... as the law fails to demand that action on the part of the Massage Establishment.

Based on the fact that NO other place has (yet) reported to be demanding ID's, I'm simply suggesting a customer should patronize THOSE places. At the time that ALL places start demanding ID's, then the game has changed and different rules would apply. Someone let me know when that happens.

Regarding use of a "fake ID", McLovin' or otherwise, Florida Law stipulates that it's illegal to possess and/or display a fake, forged, stolen, counterfeit or borrowed driver's license or state-issued identification card. The statute (Florida Statute 322.212) makes the mere possession of a fake ID a crime, and the ID does not need to be used for any particular purpose. If you are caught with a fake ID, the penalty can be filed (at the discretion of the States Attorney) as a third-degree felony carrying a jail sentence of up to 5 years with a fine up to $5000 (that's a lot of hobby-dollars).

So, if one wanted to employ use of a "fake ID", make sure it's a bogus Employment Badge or Identification, or some other NON-GOVERNMENT issued ID, with the necessary information to satisfy any AMP asking for ID. However, if an AMP is asking/demanding an ID, I'll just bet they won't take anything but a Driver License or State ID, simply because they're already being overly zealous about the perceived requirements.

By the time this all works itself out in a few months, all of the hullabellew will likely have amounted to a giant "Nothing Burger" (I don't know WHAT Louella Parsons was thinking when she coined that stupid term, but it's the dumbest metaphor I've ever heard!).

[OlderThanRocks]

Did they DEMAND your ID, or did you offer it up proactively, or simply just hand it over when asked?

Had they asked ME for my ID, I would have bluntly told them that I don't bring valuables into the spa, including wallet (with ID). If they refused all service WITHOUT me handing over my ID, I would have excused myself to (ostensibly) go out to my car to fetch it ... and then simply driven away to another AMP. If everyone would do that, they'd see their business volume plummet and they might change their ways.

So your strategy is to drive the AMPs out of Florida because they won't be able to make money as they're being forced to do this?

The way I figure it. If the businesses don't have any way around doing this -- I doubt they're going to be required to truly validate that the I'd isn't fake.

So we can all buy fake IDs or just quickly Photoshop, print out, and laminate a fake copy of your real one that you use for the hobby.

Just don't try to board a plane with it.

[Dr Willy]

Blue ocean they scanned my I'd.

Did they DEMAND your ID, or did you offer it up proactively, or simply just hand it over when asked?

Had they asked ME for my ID, I would have bluntly told them that I don't bring valuables into the spa, including wallet (with ID). If they refused all service WITHOUT me handing over my ID, I would have excused myself to (ostensibly) go out to my car to fetch it ... and then simply driven away to another AMP. If everyone would do that, they'd see their business volume plummet and they might change their ways.

[HotBoss]

It was my understanding as well that it went into effect on July 1, but they're giving the establishments a 2 month grace period to get up to code before they start enforcing it.

I've also heard this and it may be true, but I have a different thought.

I don't think LEO is going to go out of their way to find violations. I think there's an opportunity to use these new regulations to quickly and effortlessly close a targeted massage parlor. Most "raids" at AMP's are a result complaints submitted by angry neighbors or competitors. Those complaints are eventually investigated but now you can look at the front window and the case is closed. If they go inside, they'll see where the ladies rest between customers, and likely find a box full of incomplete records. Should we feel bad for the undercovers that don't need to get free massages anymore?

I was at a place two days ago that was getting their pre-opening massage license inspection. The door was locked when I arrived, I knocked, they let me inside. I was told that the inspector had just left and that they passed the inspection. They were preparing to open when I arrived. They had no knowledge of the new requirements. I was surprised they were allowed to open.

In time, AMP's will teach each other how to comply and we'll lose some in the process. The law should be challenged in court because some components are clearly impossible to follow.