"Sugarbabies" / "Arrangements" Amateurs or Not?

[Walruscl]

If she stays work on separating yourself emotionally -not that she would know, but you have to be able to deal with LAB (life after Baby).

LAB is a good way to put it. And frankly, as much affection as I have for her, it would mostly be the hole she'd leave behind that causes the most emotional distress. No reason to pop open GV to see if there are any messages. No looking forward to the mini-escapes in the FC. Nobody to talk to about the trials of a stressful family life.

But I'd be kidding myself at this point to deny that there wouldn't be a more personal element to the emotional trauma. That part I can work on. The gap left behind is more difficult, the only real option being another SB. Again, I don't consider that a viable option right now. When LAB finally does arrive, I'll probably opt to see how well the gap heals before I subject myself to the perils of the bowl.

[Walruscl]

you also want confirmation that she wants you bad enough to leave the other dude. The feeling itself is perfectly normal, but it behooves you to get control of it.

Yes, SO and kids. And this was indeed a wake-up call to work on emotional detachment.

I'm sure someone, somewhere, occasionally emerges from an SB arrangement with a legitimate and fulfilling LTR or marriage (assuming that's what they want), but saying they are the minority is an understatement. I'm going to say not even 1% have a chance at their SB flipping into a faithful / loyal companion for life. The very fact that the girl ever positioned herself as an SB indicates an innate feeling of entitlement to things she did not legitimately earn herself -- rather she expects to receive support in exchange for her beauty. Long term, her beauty will fade but her sense of entitlement will only grow. Sugarbabying reinforces that sense of entitlement and sets them up for a lifetime of GPS for as long as they remain hot looking, and a lifetime of bitter, moody horrors beyond that point.

As for her chances of a LTR in her life, I can't say. A seriously broken home is a huge hindrance to that. But I will say that I am completely certain that she is essentially not an SB, as generally understood by this board.

At the time we met she was in dire straits and was down to very few options. She had little choice but to accept the sugar, and I went out of my way to frame each one as a gift as much as possible. We went a little over a year in a standard sugar arrangement, during which time her situation improved by several orders of magnitude. It's not ideal, but it can at least be called stable. It's been six months since there was sugar involved. She has left the door open to the notion that I might help her again if she gets underwater, but other than that there is no discussion of it.

She has high aspirations and know she has a lot of work to do to achieve them. "Entitled" is about the last adjective that applies to her. A lot of support she gets from me these days is more of the "mentor / life-coach" variety.

So while you brothers who work the bowl more actively than I can claim a lot more insight into the dynamics of a typical SB, I can confidently say from both my own instincts and what I've read here is that she's not at all typical. I'd have to say that this has all but completely moved into the category of "affair", but without the usual threat to the main relationship. I didn't want to go there, but here I am nevertheless.

In your case it sounds like she has given you a perfect window of opportunity to do what you need to do. First of all, it was nice of her to be honest with you about what happened, but the fact that it happened is grounds for letting her go. And, since she is somewhat distracted / conflicted right now, you can do so without guilt of worrying about hurting her, you can devote all your energy to dealing with your own addiction to her.

I would agree with others that the best immediate medicine is to go shopping for a new one, one without all the strings. There's always another one out there that's hotter than the one before. Just try to get in the habit of moving to the next one before getting in too deep.

For better or for worse, I'm already in pretty deep, and I don't think it's in much danger of getting deeper. We have both openly acknowledged that there is no long term future. There have been a couple of times where one or the other of us have considered ending it, and the emotional pain stirred up was about the same as this last episode. So the calculus is that having needs fulfilled for a longer amount of time won't have much effect on the pain of splitting up, so it keeps on for now.

Again, I could be wrong, and may come to regret all of these decisions. But I just wanted to share my cautionary tale. Especially the irony that even the unicorn carries its own issues.

(and this is not intended to be argumentative, just clarifying how my situation is atypical).

[HollywoodGuy]

This, brothers, is the danger when it gets too deep. I care way too much about this. It's not the type of thing where I'm itching to just run off with her, since I know better than to think that would work out. But she fills many needs, not just physical, and when that eventually comes to an end it will be painful. And episodes like this eat up way too much mental and emotional energy that are better spent elsewhere. Fortunately they are rare.

I unfortunately have gotten in too deep with a few girls. Lived with three already. Now I keep it cool. And always let them know upfront that I am nobody's B word. No offence. But as far as feelings. If I let mine get carried away then I am ready to pay the price. But having one baby is always a recipe for disaster.

[FredMoore]

Yeah, I've considered it, but only fleetingly. I barely have enough time for this one. Even if I could magically make another perfect-match SB appear on the scene I'd have trouble juggling them. One SB, job, household, kids, etc is more than I can handle already. The thought of the time and energy required for the M&G process is just too much.

My current plan is to let this one play out, make the most of it, and deal with the emotional consequences best I can when it ends. This ride has been sufficiently intense that it's unclear that would even enter the bowl again. This experience is a pretty tough standard to meet in terms of how good things can be, but also a cautionary tale on the emotional investment that can come along with it. This episode was a wake-up call that I need to actively moderate my affections towards my unicorn.

Good advice from the brothers, but hard to do. I had an intense relationship with my ATF years ago. I was insane and would have run off with this SB 40 yrs my junior--for both of us a disaster. I haven't found the same thing years since. So I guess what I am saying is to allow this relationship to run it's natural course-whether she stays or goes. If she stays work on separating yourself emotionally -not that she would know, but you have to be able to deal with LAB (life after Baby). You might need some counselling. I heard pole dancers are good therapists LOL. I agree you should make time to add another SB to the mix. It won't be the same but you do need the perspective.

[JZLizard]

Yeah, I've considered it, but only fleetingly. I barely have enough time for this one. Even if I could magically make another perfect-match SB appear on the scene I'd have trouble juggling them. One SB, job, household, kids, etc is more than I can handle already. The thought of the time and energy required for the M&G process is just too much.

My current plan is to let this one play out, make the most of it, and deal with the emotional consequences best I can when it ends. This ride has been sufficiently intense that it's unclear that would even enter the bowl again. This experience is a pretty tough standard to meet in terms of how good things can be, but also a cautionary tale on the emotional investment that can come along with it. This episode was a wake-up call that I need to actively moderate my affections towards my unicorn.

I have trouble keeping track of each of the brothers' individual situations, so I don't remember if you have an SO (but I assume so since you mentioned household and kids). Assuming you do have an SO, I would just say you've gotten yourself in way too deep emotionally. There are far worse potential consequences to doing this than you've experienced thus far. What you're experiencing is just a normal type of jealousy that occurs whenever someone's been creeping around your back stairs. You've got time and money invested with her and you don't want to share her, you also want confirmation that she wants you bad enough to leave the other dude. The feeling itself is perfectly normal, but it behooves you to get control of it.

I'm sure someone, somewhere, occasionally emerges from an SB arrangement with a legitimate and fulfilling LTR or marriage (assuming that's what they want), but saying they are the minority is an understatement. I'm going to say not even 1% have a chance at their SB flipping into a faithful / loyal companion for life. The very fact that the girl ever positioned herself as an SB indicates an innate feeling of entitlement to things she did not legitimately earn herself -- rather she expects to receive support in exchange for her beauty. Long term, her beauty will fade but her sense of entitlement will only grow. Sugarbabying reinforces that sense of entitlement and sets them up for a lifetime of GPS for as long as they remain hot looking, and a lifetime of bitter, moody horrors beyond that point.

So, all of us should go into this hobby with NSA as a top priority, and that means sometimes pulling ourselves out of the danger zone, possibly even with the moral support and advice of brothers here. Once emotional strings form, it's time to do something to cut them. It's not always easy to be disciplined enough to do it. I had such an immediate connection with my last SB that it took me weeks to stop texting her and wishing I could see her again from the time I forced myself to stop. But time does heal these situations, and faster than you think.

In your case it sounds like she has given you a perfect window of opportunity to do what you need to do. First of all, it was nice of her to be honest with you about what happened, but the fact that it happened is grounds for letting her go. And, since she is somewhat distracted / conflicted right now, you can do so without guilt of worrying about hurting her, you can devote all your energy to dealing with your own addiction to her.

I would agree with others that the best immediate medicine is to go shopping for a new one, one without all the strings. There's always another one out there that's hotter than the one before. Just try to get in the habit of moving to the next one before getting in too deep.

[Walruscl]

You might want to consider meeting new POT SBs and re-establish your perspective. Doesn't mean you have to drop your current ATF but anytime a SD places all their physical, emotional, and financial chips on one SB there is a greater chance for eventually being in too deep. Sincere best of luck and I hope you get an outcome that is favourable to you.

Yeah, I've considered it, but only fleetingly. I barely have enough time for this one. Even if I could magically make another perfect-match SB appear on the scene I'd have trouble juggling them. One SB, job, household, kids, etc is more than I can handle already. The thought of the time and energy required for the M&G process is just too much.

My current plan is to let this one play out, make the most of it, and deal with the emotional consequences best I can when it ends. This ride has been sufficiently intense that it's unclear that would even enter the bowl again. This experience is a pretty tough standard to meet in terms of how good things can be, but also a cautionary tale on the emotional investment that can come along with it. This episode was a wake-up call that I need to actively moderate my affections towards my unicorn.

[Rouleur]

Seniors, feel free to give me a good dose of we-told-you-so. Newbies, learn vicariously from my pain. The danger of wanting the unicorn, the one with whom who have a connection, but of course on non-traditional terms. Be careful, you might get it. The human connection takes a life of it own, often in unexpected ways.

So my SB takes a winter-break road-trip with some school chums this week. Throw in some alcohol, two guys who have a crush on her, one of which she's gotten along with real well in the past year. Well, at a club one night the alcohol flowed, some mutual admissions of affection were made between her and the latter guy, culminating in a BJ in the mens bathroom. Apparently the rest of the trip was of the hold-hand / cuddle behavior, which was overt to the rest of the group. Puppy love, near as I can figure from what I'm hearing.

So I get these panicked texts about how she doesn't know what do to, doesn't want to leave me but things were suddenly swell with her college buddy. She was set to visit me the next day so I calmed her down until we could really talk.

I went into the discussion expecting that the inevitable had happened-she finally connected with a peer and was ready for more normal civvy dating. In fact, that's how I always imagined the most positive outcome. From a position of pure self-interest, there's much less risk of collateral damage if she's choosing to move on to someone else than me pushing her away. So I was ready to encourage and support that direction.

But alas, she is in too deep with me, and as this episode is making clear, I am in too deep with her. She can't give me up for something that may or may not be the right thing. As I heard more about what happened and the dynamics with this guy, my take was that it would work for awhile, but then she'd be right on my doorstep again. She mostly talked herself out of it, but I didn't argue either. Part of me wonders whether I lost a chance at a clean break, but mostly I think it would have been temporary and in the long run cause more complications.

The day ended up with lots to discuss, most of it leaning my direction, and lots of cuddle time. Her next step was to break the definitive news to her road-trip fling.

I knew that over the next few days she'd be navigating the tricky waters of unwinding her mixed messages to the group and to her crush in particular, which she understandably was not looking forward to. Those few days go by with lots of radio silence, though the communications that did happen seemed pretty back-to-normal. Then she announced that she was hanging with the group and feeling really shitty, even though it sounded like things were going to blow over.

So that's that, right? I wish.

After our talk where she made it pretty clear that she was not leaving and was just going to have to suck it up with her peers, I still couldn't shake the anxiety. We all know how conflicted people (especially women) will feel one thing with one person then something totally different when with another. So I knew better than to believe that this was the last of it. I'm sure the anxiety was unfounded, but Sugar Bowl Time Machine had unexpectedly transported me back to the old "is she going to pick me?" purgatory / hell. How pathetic is that?

This, brothers, is the danger when it gets too deep. I care way too much about this. It's not the type of thing where I'm itching to just run off with her, since I know better than to think that would work out. But she fills many needs, not just physical, and when that eventually comes to an end it will be painful. And episodes like this eat up way too much mental and emotional energy that are better spent elsewhere. Fortunately they are rare.

You might want to consider meeting new POT SBs and re-establish your perspective. Doesn't mean you have to drop your current ATF but anytime a SD places all their physical, emotional, and financial chips on one SB there is a greater chance for eventually being in too deep. Sincere best of luck and I hope you get an outcome that is favourable to you.

[Walruscl]

Seniors, feel free to give me a good dose of we-told-you-so. Newbies, learn vicariously from my pain. The danger of wanting the unicorn, the one with whom who have a connection, but of course on non-traditional terms. Be careful, you might get it. The human connection takes a life of it own, often in unexpected ways.

So my SB takes a winter-break road-trip with some school chums this week. Throw in some alcohol, two guys who have a crush on her, one of which she's gotten along with real well in the past year. Well, at a club one night the alcohol flowed, some mutual admissions of affection were made between her and the latter guy, culminating in a BJ in the mens bathroom. Apparently the rest of the trip was of the hold-hand / cuddle behavior, which was overt to the rest of the group. Puppy love, near as I can figure from what I'm hearing.

So I get these panicked texts about how she doesn't know what do to, doesn't want to leave me but things were suddenly swell with her college buddy. She was set to visit me the next day so I calmed her down until we could really talk.

I went into the discussion expecting that the inevitable had happened-she finally connected with a peer and was ready for more normal civvy dating. In fact, that's how I always imagined the most positive outcome. From a position of pure self-interest, there's much less risk of collateral damage if she's choosing to move on to someone else than me pushing her away. So I was ready to encourage and support that direction.

But alas, she is in too deep with me, and as this episode is making clear, I am in too deep with her. She can't give me up for something that may or may not be the right thing. As I heard more about what happened and the dynamics with this guy, my take was that it would work for awhile, but then she'd be right on my doorstep again. She mostly talked herself out of it, but I didn't argue either. Part of me wonders whether I lost a chance at a clean break, but mostly I think it would have been temporary and in the long run cause more complications.

The day ended up with lots to discuss, most of it leaning my direction, and lots of cuddle time. Her next step was to break the definitive news to her road-trip fling.

I knew that over the next few days she'd be navigating the tricky waters of unwinding her mixed messages to the group and to her crush in particular, which she understandably was not looking forward to. Those few days go by with lots of radio silence, though the communications that did happen seemed pretty back-to-normal. Then she announced that she was hanging with the group and feeling really shitty, even though it sounded like things were going to blow over.

So that's that, right? I wish.

After our talk where she made it pretty clear that she was not leaving and was just going to have to suck it up with her peers, I still couldn't shake the anxiety. We all know how conflicted people (especially women) will feel one thing with one person then something totally different when with another. So I knew better than to believe that this was the last of it. I'm sure the anxiety was unfounded, but Sugar Bowl Time Machine had unexpectedly transported me back to the old "is she going to pick me?" purgatory / hell. How pathetic is that?

This, brothers, is the danger when it gets too deep. I care way too much about this. It's not the type of thing where I'm itching to just run off with her, since I know better than to think that would work out. But she fills many needs, not just physical, and when that eventually comes to an end it will be painful. And episodes like this eat up way too much mental and emotional energy that are better spent elsewhere. Fortunately they are rare.

[Playa12]

Hey guys,

Haven't been active in this forum and am just getting started in the bowl. Been following some of HG's advice (thanks HG) and am about ready for the first meet and greet. Any advice on how direct to be with the communication setting up the date? Need a little "sales" help. LOL.

[HollywoodGuy]

Just got back from a very strange date. The super hot island girl was super weird even though she looked good, had on a tight mini and had a fresh wax. But the chemistry was not happening. After an hour of awkwardness in the FC I just took her home. She didn't ask for any money. And apologized for her unsugarlike behavior. I just think she really wants a BF and not an SD. And I just wanted a booty call. Thank god for my ATF. After I dropped off said island girl I swung by her place for a quick BJ and came home. I have many many M&G's to do and I am determined to find a new SB. So there you have it.

[HollywoodGuy]

Here is a pretty one. An 18 year old mixed girl. She is down for the adventure.

I'd say she is an 8+ in any guys book. Look at that smile.

[HollywoodGuy]

After messaging all those girls last night due to getting flaked on, I was horneee. So I went to my ATF at midnite for a 2 hour car date in her driveway. It was smoking hot. Suddenly she asks me "are you looking" And I am like you mean for a new girl? She says yes. So I tell her I am and that I interviewed about 5 to 10 in the FC since I met her. But that none of them worked out or made it to the third date. She said just hearing about it was getting her hot. And she wasn't lying as I had my finger inside her while we were talking and I suddenly felt it get a lot wetter. She then gave me one of the best BJ's she has done so far in 40 dates. I was so high (on the sex) I forgot to pay her. But we are more on a monthly arrangement anyway.

There are some awesome girls out there. So far I have gotten 20+ girls (all between 18-21 except 2) on SA in the first 6 weeks to agree to my $ a date. Meaning I have their phone number which I am only asking for after they agree, just so I don't forget where they are in the qualifying process. The one tonite (my new island girl) already knows the score in the bigger picture. I told her about my regulars and lifestyle because I think she might have a shot at a future. She is getting waxed just a few hours before our date tonite.

[HollywoodGuy]

I got flaked on by the white rocker girl. No problem. Started chatting up a few girls on SA on my down time. Three 19 year olds and a super hot 27 year old in my neighborhood. One of those 19 year olds is a virgin. So she says. never had one.

Got my date with my new island girl tomorrow nite. My ATF got out of the hospital but wont be well for a few more days. So I am gonna do all 4 or 5 M&G's as fast as I can.

[HoyaSvnFgr]

I put my jersey back on. I'm officially back in The Sugar Bowl. This time taking my time before doing M&G. Also, picking the top of the crop. I put my photo up on my profile and I'm getting more traffic than I could ever imagine. Even spinners that I tried to link up with before are coming around now.

I met up with this one spinner that sort of was playing hard to get before. We meet up and go shopping. She spends her own money, she even had a wad of cash. She booked a hotel for us to crash after a night of partying. We get to the hotel and she's on her cycle. Nonetheless, she gives me oral over and over and over again all night. I may have came 4 times and then passed out. I've since been trying to set up the FC and she mentioned something about she'd need $1 K and how she gave me a sample.

I never did a lot of research on POTS, but she let her guard down. I gathered she used a fake name and some sort of cell phone number disguising app. I pull up her info and her criminal record is pretty surprising for a good looking 21 year old. She's got a couple of DUI's and a battery charge. Great mugshot pics though. I think I'll pass on the work required for the FC, but she's a hottie. She's probably batshit crazy and would key my car, but I'd imagine she's an awesome lay.

[JZLizard]

I have to respectfully disagree with this particular point. My best SB ever (and longest SB relationship) invited me to her place for our first meet. To say it was amazing would be an understatement. I brought wine and cheese and after the first glass calmed our nervousness, we went at it like rabbits for hours. I popped at least 4 times. She was a foreign grad student (I didn't know that at the time) who I think genuinely needed the cash, but also wanted the sex. She was in her 30's, not interested in marriage or children and her sex drive was unbelievable. I may have mentioned her in the past. I still miss her. I will admit that her residence was in a secure building in a nice part of town, and it would definitely have been sketchier if she was in a house in a no-so-great area. But I don't think any SB who invites you to her place for a first meet is necessarily a scammer or thief.

She was also clearly not a hardened pro. It was pretty obvious I was the only Daddy she had, and we progressed to overnights and dinner dates and even the occasional long Saturday night into Sunday brunch combo. She was available anytime I wanted to see her if she was not working. All for the same low amount I left her (without ever discussing it) when I left after our first marathon session. In fact, she was grateful for every ounce of help. She was going home before Christmas, and I popped in to drop of a very inexpensive gift. I was really just planning on dropping off the gift and being on my way. But sShe was so thrilled, she literally couldn't stop thanking me and before I could say boo, she had dropped to her knees and had me out and in her mouth. I told her I didn't have any allowance, and she didn't care. It really about showing appreciation for the gift. A hardened pro would not have acted in any of the ways she did.

Without paging back to recall the full context in which I said that, if I'm not mistaken I think the poster was talking about someone he met who quickly invited him over, as-in "come on over sweetie" or that sort of thing, so I was mostly trying to warn him that this sort of thing can get you robbed, hurt, arrested or killed.

To your point however, I was really summarizing that particular situation. Are there situations that "fall outside the norm?" (no pun intended, but yes surely there are).

Encounters with real SBs have a lot in common with civy dating (both in their mind and in ours). So, whenever something happens in the bowl, either to us or through reading someone else's experience, it is often useful to put it into the context of plain-old-dating to see if it makes sense. And, sure, I have met women who were not after money who met me at their place first. A couple of years ago I met a stripper who didn't have a car, and for our first date she asked me to pick her up at her place (where she was still living with who she said was her ex-bf and his male roommate), so I drove right up front and picked her up as her roommate gawked, standing right there on the porch as she got in my car. She was annoyed with his desire to watch us take off, and was concerned he would run his mouth. She insisted her relationship was over anyway, but did not want to live with gossip. She was not a pro and to the best of my knowledge had never hooked up with a strip club patron prior to that night (she was very young and new to dancing). Even with casual bar hookups, I've had some take me straight back to their place for a round of fucking, some of which had advanced degrees with great jobs and certainly were not hardened pros.

It sounds like in your particular case you met an SB who was viewing the M&G as more of a date (which is how I like them to view it) than the kind of "come on over sweetie" danger sign I was alluding to. I'm also guessing that she did this because of conversations you had with her up to that point that gave her a comfort level (either that, or being foreign she was so new to the country that she brought habits and mannerisms with her to this country that betray my earlier definition). I don't know which country she was from, but foreign girls often have very different ideas about online socialization and even sex. She may have also had the "bobbing for greencard" habit that I've noticed (and also adored) in so many foreign college students, where they are feeling a bit rushed to hook up with some financial stability before their school visa runs out. There is really no way for you or I to know her background before she came to this country, and because in some countries prostitution is a way of life, we never really know her background. I've been there, done that, and enjoyed the benefits of foreign students studying here without over-analyzing the matter, so I don't intend to start now, I just wanted to say that the particular case you described wasn't really the type of thing I had in mind when I said what I did.

In general, I would be very suspicious of any girl found on an SD site who is okay with doing the M&G inside her place of residence. There is a chance you may strike gold, but more than likely it is an indication that she is not concerned about her potential new SD being a needy stalker type that just won't go away. This could be because her place of residence is fleeting (short term rental thus she doesn't care), which is more likely in a pro than anyone else, it could be because she feels completely safe (maybe an on-campus dorm while her roommate is away? I've been in that situation), or it could be that she just hasn't yet thought of the stalker possibility.

So, while it's true that it's unfair to say she is always a hardened pro if she invites you over for the M&G, I'd say this is not a typical scenario with a responsible young lady, and in most cases we should be suspicious of any girl who doesn't want to meet in a public place first.