"Sugarbabies" / "Arrangements" Amateurs or Not?

[Hernando]

AltDrummer

THanks for the heartfelt explanation of your situation. I too can identify with your circumstances and find myself in the same boat without the discovery drama so far. I am sorry for opening my wife up to this potential life changing experience but a SB does change the playing field tremendously. Escorts are certainly NSA to the max. SBs are not regardless of how you manage it. It is difficult to see someone regularly without developing feelings. I know some of us can stick to their guns in keeping SBs NSA but it is sure hard, and it depends on the quality of SB as well. If you have someone who is "your kind of girl" and offers more than raw sex then you can be vulnerable. I've had prior SBs who I would not be seen with in public on a bet but provided sexual services in a satisfying way.

It looks like a lot of us are in that same boat, Alias and Scott to name two others.

SubCmdr, I agree that everyone has their "number". There are several guys here who have had success with staggeringly low donations which have been well below the $1000 mark. So keep at it if your current patrol is successful. Nando

[AliasSM]

Enough said for now. Thanks for listening!

Atldrummer

Thanks for the honest account of what went wrong AtlDrummer. I saw a lot of similarities between to two of us and know I am playing with fire in my current situation. Maybe I am in that "wanting to get caught" mode myself. My wife and I usually use totally separate computer equipment, but the smart phone technology these days gets kind of scary. I have my phone on vibrate all the time when at home, but eventually I need to lay it down if only for a few minutes. She could easily pick it up and see the txt message up on the screen. I have come back to the phone more than once recently to see suggestive messages clearly on the screen, even in lock down mode. I use google message service and haven't found a way to set it so only the number shows up instead of the whole txt.

I am real careful with my email account though. It would not be good if my wife ever saw some of the email history in that account.

It does sound to me like you have the right idea about continuing to play in the SB world rather than a real GF, at least for now.

Again, thanks for the response. It is always helpful to learn from others, and I do see several things I need to change immediately after reading your response.

Alias

[TravelinSD]

I came from the escort world. If you want a primer on not getting caught peruse some threads on those boards. I was always careful, but not paranoid. I had a separate Yahoo email for my extracurricular activities. I was fortunate that my business is using computers, so I always had my own, my wife had her own, never the twain met. Even so I religiously signed out of my Yahoo mail. With the escorts all communications happened using the Yahoo account or phone at my initiation. I also was lucky that I'm self employed so my activities happened during the day while my wife was at work, plus my business finances were separate from the household finances. There really wasn't much chance of getting caught. Most guys also have separate "hobby" phones to protect their number, etc. That always seemed more dangerous. What if you wife finds out you have a secret phone?

Until the SB I really didn't text much at all. With her it started only text me between 9am & 5pm. Once communications became an issue I said text anytime and set my phone to just show the number, not the message and kept it on vibrate. It was new technology that got me. I bought an iPad. During December wife and I were traveling with just the iPad. One morning I thought I'd signed out of my Yahoo mail and I hadn't. Now SB and I really didn't email at all, BUT, stupid thing #1 I never deleted all of my previous escort related emails. My wife found those. That of course led her to my phone (which wasn't locked) and stupid thing #2, I never deleted my SB text stream. That was it. On some level I think I probably wanted to be caught.

To Hernando's point, I wouldn't have been seeing escorts or starting a SB relationship if things were great at home. Here's one thing, the escort thing was easy to manage: Get the urge, make the appointment, do the deed, move on. The SB relationship vastly overcomplicated things. With the escorts it was during the day, during the week. Lies of omission. With the SB it got to the point where I was actively having night and weekend "meetings" to get away. Active lies, plus I was falling in love with my SB.

I can remember after things blew up with my ex her saying "You seem relieved that it's out in the open." She was sooo right! As to my looking for an SB relationship rather than RLGF, two reasons. Shallow reason, I'm now used to spending time with a hot 23 yr old woman. I'm not that ugly or out of shape, and I really am a really nice guy, but still would have no chance of landing that type of gal in RL. At least not as efficiently as using the SD sites. The serious reason, I've deeply hurt a very decent, wonderful woman. My ex has been nothing but exceptionally fair during the entire divorce. I've also had my heart broken by my SB. She's still the first thing I think of every morning and last thing I think of every night. I'm not in a position emotionally to even attempt a RL relationship. I'm not sure I ever will be. I've come to the conclusion I just may not be cut out for it. So, for now the SB thing seems to be the way to go.

Enough said for now. Thanks for listening!

Atldrummer

[SubCmdr]

I hate to be blunt in pointing this out, but the sugar world isn't for the cheep guy.

It seems like we have gone intellectual up in here. What happened to the wild and crazy stories of tearing the pussy up?

I know this has been debated before and will be continued to be until the end of time. The sugar world is simply a marketing pitch. An arms length review of the matter shows it to be simply another transactional sexual relationship.

I saw an interview with a sugar daddy and he said it best. 'It is only a matter of determining how long the arrangement has to be before society sanctions it. Make an arrangement for an hour (bad). Make an arrangement for a lifetime (good). '

One baby's 'cheap' is another baby's economic lifeline. Let's take a car for example: You can buy Caddie or a Chevy. Both are going to get your where you need to go. You can also buy a McLaren MP4-12c. Now you are in an entirely different league. At that point you are buying more than just a car. It is an engineering work of art. If I had the money, I'd pay the 229K they want for it.

If you are going to define the sugar world by the price tag you put on the 'party favors' then I think it does a disservice to the rest of us that are not 1%ers. Now I am not one to hate on those SD's that can roll large and have fat pockets. And the SB's that are bringing the 'party favors' with the Tiffany label should make their SD's pay up for sure. But please show me another area of economic endeavor where you pay an amateur more than a professional.

So maybe I don't get it. But until I do I'm going to stay just under the surface and keep patrolling in shallow waters. I'll leave the deep water patrols to the big boomers out there. The Cmdr knows his limitations.

SubCmdr Out

[SbabyBlog]

I demand this of her since I want that irl gf sensation.

I just wanted to explain that the main reason I told Scott he was wrong was because he was upset when she wasn't responding to him. But, given his circumstances with "the bat phone" he can't always respond to her when she texts. I completely believe that what's good for one is good for the other so if you can't participate in an "instant communication relationship" you shouldn't expect her to jump and respond to your text immediately either.

Now, I do typically text a couple times throughout the day with both Memories and The Doctor. I'll admit some mornings I shake my head at the reality of texting my husband good morning (he's at work by the time I wake up) , then sending a text to The Doctor and then Memories. Usually, if I don't text Memories by around 10, he'll send me a good morning text. Right now he's doing a lot of reading on one of the topics I'm studying in school, so this is generally part of the conversation stream. He's reading the more pop-culture executive written business books whereas I've read all the research and theory they were based on.

The Doctor rarely initiates texting with me, but will eventually respond to mine. So, the other morning when very early I received a "Good morning sweetie I hope you have a great day" text from him, well it made me smile all day.

I'm also an extremely connected person with the benefit of a very relaxed work environment. The only times I am really completely unreachable via my phone are when I'm in class. But, even then you can find me on twitter, yahoo I'm or email. When I was working, texts could go hours before I responded and then that required me remembering that I hadn't already responded. I had a boyfriend then who got upset by this. The more he whined about it, the more of a "chore" it became for me to answer him. Which actually became the impetus for ignoring his texts or calls and well you can guess we'd didn't last much longer than that.

Nando is right, every relationship is different where this is concerned. I think it's best to discuss what you want up front but realize it's not fair to ask something of someone that you can't reciprocate.

Mandy

[SbabyBlog]

I love you to death baby, but I think you are a little off on this one.

Sorry, my writing late in the evening after working all day meant I wasn't able to articulate better what I meant there. Yes, in your short term CPO an SB will always be less expensive. But unless you're willing to get into the 1k mark, you'll not find that consistent, no-drama, ATF type which most of you seem to want. If you can't afford that, then you would be better off with an escort once or twice a month because it's certainly much less time consuming to find one of them vs. The e-mail, m&g process, that occurs just to get a baby one time. If you can afford that, then you should be able to reasonably expect that you will eventually find a decent baby that you'll form a longer relationship with.

I hate to be blunt in pointing this out, but the sugar world isn't for the cheep guy. While I agree the girls out there requesting condos, exorbitant allowances and such have a way overinflated ego which should give you more reason to run than what it is that she's requesting, I think the guys "negotiating to death and low & balling" a girl are giving the guys in the sugar world a negative perception.

As always, it's just one babies perspective though.

Mandy

[Hernando]

" If you want to look at this from purely a statistical standpoint, remember that the more she texts, e-mails, or calls you, the more opportunity there is for your communications to be discovered by someone else "

Joe speaks the truth and the more involved I find myself getting with my SB the higher the risk. As we all know, or can imagine, Finding an excuse to be away from home for an overnight is a far cry from slipping an hour with an escort into a busy day.

Escorts bring their own brand of risk, what with LE waiting to pop you at a sting operation, to STD, blackmail, etc. In the end it depends on how much of a GFE you want to have, and a SB / GF who shares monogamy with you is as good as it gets short of a real life GF.

Altdrummer suffered the ultimate penalty in discovery and subsequent divorce. I'm sorry for the pain and suffering. However, I have to wonder if in some way, those of us who play in this arena are basically not happy with our home lives, otherwise we wouldn't be here. I find it interesting that our brother drummer is looking for a SB and not an IRL GF. Perhaps a series of SBs are easier than dealing with a wife.

Thought for another day. Is marriage a viable institution? Mandy (I reference again) seems to have arrived at an ideal compromise. She seems to have her cake and eat it as well IMHO. I would love to hear some opinions about that.

[CantWinLosin]

I haven't participated here in a while as I've been conserving financially and not SB-ing, but I have watched with approval how the ranks here have grown and enjoyed immensely the addition Mandy has brought to the group. Good show, lady and gentlemen!

The financial aspects of this have always been an interesting subject, as has the way we and the babies dance around the issue. I'm reminded of two old racer's adages about costs: "Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?", and "The best way to make a small fortune doing this is to start with a big one." Some of us cannot afford $1000 / month, much less $20K / month; we can find a SB that we *can* afford, but it usually means giving up something. She may not be quite the HYB we hoped for, maybe she's a little bit older MILF, or she might even be young, athletic and beautiful but she has more than her share of drama and problems, or some combo of these. Keeping our expectations and requirements realistic to our budget is the hardest thing we do.

I disagree w / SubCmdr that it's all about CPO, as there are things I seek in a SB, such as a level of friendship, genuine interest in me as a person rather than merely a money source, that I do not expect in an escort (tho' I have found it in a couple of the escorts I've known.) At a minimum, those extra considerations need to be factored into the cost. But I understand how some might see it as a neat CPO equation.

[AliasSM]

My wife did find out. We're now divorced. The ultimate came when my SB ended our relationship without closure, just stopped communicating with me enitrely. Sooo, not to be too much of a downer, but that can be the result when feelings and communication desires get out of hand. On the bright side, I'm now dusting myself off and on the hunt for a new SB.

If you don't mind my asking, what gave you away to the warden. If the subject is just too taboo to discuss on this board, let me know and I will understand, but we are all on here to learn techniques to make us successful in the SB adventures and keep each other out of trouble. Although you are relatively new to the board, you have some valuable information that could ultimately be the biggest help of all. By my calculations, if my warden found out about my hobby, it would likely cost me several hundred thousand dollars by the time the divorce was settled. So any information I can gather on how best to stay out of trouble is REAL valuable to me. If you don't mind sharing, I suspect the brotherhood here would be real interested in hearing your story.

Alias

[TravelinSD]

Gentlemen,

I have already obtained Mandy's input on this question, so wanted to put it to the brotherhood at large. For those of you with an ATF, or a steady SB, how often do you communicate with her about things other than a calisthenics class appointment? Or in fact, do you at all? And how often do they reach out with a "touch-base" to you?

I ask because I may be way in the deep end with my ATF in terms of contacting her during our downtimes. Mandy assures me this is so, and I am not doubting her, just would like additional input.

Thanking you in advance,

Scott

Hi Scott,

First, thanks for the welcome to the board and to the others that have welcomed me as well. As I mentioned my SB / SD relationship of a year ended in January. I think one of the reasons was our differing expectations of communications. As things progressed and we became closer and closer I wanted more communication than she was able to give. Although the times we were together were pretty much perfect, our only disagreements came over lack of communication to the point of her promising to see me or call or text, and then blowing me off entirely and not even recognizing it afterward. My wife did find out. We're now divorced. The ultimate came when my SB ended our relationship without closure, just stopped communicating with me enitrely. Sooo, not to be too much of a downer, but that can be the result when feelings and communication desires get out of hand. On the bright side, I'm now dusting myself off and on the hunt for a new SB.

Thanks again for the welcome and I'm happy to be part of the group!

[SubCmdr]

SbabyBlog,

I love you to death baby, but I think you are a little off on this one. You are using the wrong metric. Cost per orgasm (CPO) is the proper measurement. CPO for an escort is higher. You are not going to find a escort for a $250 overnight. Most SB's even at the shallow end of the sugar bowl are going to spend 2. 4 hours with you for each visit even if you don't over night with them. You get to pound that thing into the mattress as much as you can during that time period. So, it would be $250 / hour to bust with an escort once maybe twice if she is generous. Or, $250 for 2. 4 hours with an SB and bust all you like. And if you happen to be into the intangible of GFE, well like the commercial says "priceless".

CPO (Escort) = $250.

CPO (SB) = $83. 33. $125. 00.

The Cmdr be runnin dem digits. Cause his pockets ain't fat.

SubCmdr Out

[SubCmdr]

Joe,

My input is don't negotiate. I swear I've hear the "My last SD did this" so fucking much they must teach it in a SB school somewhere. Have her put a hard number on her sugar requirement. Then you can contemplate the figure in the cool comfort of where you are reading her message. If her number is outside of your comfort zone you can always give a counter offer. But, if she feels that she has lost the negotiation you might hit it once, but she is unlikely to want to let you hit it again. And if she continues to take the lower amount, then she was playing you for a sucker from the beginning. Release your WPAD. Tear that SB pussy up. And make her put in some work!

Just remember my advice may only be as good as what you paid for it. LOL!

SubCmdr Out

[SbabyBlog]

I know I'm a little late to the party but I had to chime in on the GPS conversation. I'm sure what I'm writing is going to make a few of you not so happy, and this doesn't apply to everyone. That being said, this is just one babies opinion.

Overall my comment is you get what you pay for, if your going into this world fairly low budget, don't expect a high quality ATF type sugar baby.

The realities of this world are yes, there guys out there willing to pay an allowance of 20k a month – although they are somewhat rare. Also, there guys willing to pay 1k. 5k a month and that's pretty standard. I would consider anything above that range is a bit high and anything below cheap.

Where the 20k girl was off is if she knows that's what she wants then she shouldn't be wasting both hers and your time talking to you if your net worth is under about 10m. Those are the only guys who are going to be able to afford what she wants. And, it's ok that she wants that – if she's patient, and she'll find it.

Now, in my mind it's not just about the allowance I'm given. I'm able to add up what a night out costs, hotel, maybe a present and then the allowance. To share personal info, I'd guess that in total Memories probably spends around $2500. $3000 a month on me and I see him once a week.

Now, that may be too high for some of you and if so just embrace that. Learn to have the budget discussion first so you know what she wants before investing a lot of time. For those hoping to spend a lower amount, it may take you a bit longer to find someone. The thing about this world is the more you're willing to spend the faster you'll get to at least meet the babies who might be what you're looking for. Of course, there's always the time it takes to find the one you actually connect with.

Now, there is another reason I have 1k as a starting point for the sugar world. Essentially, if you can't pay over that curve then a cost / return analysis shows that it would be better to be with an escort. So, if an escort costs $250 / hour. $1000 would be 4 dates. In the sugar world a $1000 allowance could get you 4 overnight dates. If you find an SB who is ok with P2P then she typically will want between $200-$500 / meet. In that respect, you're better off with an escort – same end result and you get it cheaper. So, in the larger scheme of things, it costs you less / meet to just get into that range.

Now, there was some discussion about paying less than that amount, but it also sounds like you're not ecstatic with the quality of the baby you're getting. Which brings me back to my original comment – you get what you pay for.

Oh! And, as a final thought. I just spent $100 in hair products, tanning and a new top so that I look cute and perfect for my date with memories tomorrow night. In total, I probably spend about $300 a month. Just wanted to point out that we have costs too.

Thanks for reading!

Mandy

[F Scott]

I had a first interview today.

The lady in question, SB3, is beautiful, funny, and a joy to be with. During our meeting, though, she noted that her last boyfriend bought her a car, a condo, and paid her junior college tuition. She said he was a millionaire, although this all could be, as we in the legal profession like to say,"mere puffery."

Specific remuneration amounts did not arise during our conversation, but I was firm in pointing out that I am not a millionaire, nor can I afford to live like one. I think she got the point, and she was direct that we should meet again soon. I will have to set my limits before then, lest I loose my senses (and my bank account balance).

In the end, I guess it's more of a rhetorical question, as we just had the GPS discussion earlier today. Better to move on than to lose more than you can afford.

Regards,

Joe

Joe,

I want to thank you for your considered response to my question, but also to respond to your dilemma as well. As all of us who have been at this a while know intellectually but from time to time have a hard time remembering: there are plenty of fish in the sea. She will not be your only bite; keep fishing. Babies can say whatever they want, it doesn't make it true.

The fact that she so quickly backed off her story about the gazillionaire who bought her a private island and the natives who lived there to be her servants should be your clue that she, herself, was fishing too. When you go out and stand on the stream bank and cast into the sweet, calm pool just to the side of the riffle, the thought that's going through your head is not "I hope I hook an adequate fish." Same for the babies, I believe. She was hoping to hook a whale, and why not? They have their agenda, as do we.

So now, in my opinion, the ball is in your court. Do you want to see her again, and if so, for how long? I believe it is perfectly permissible to follow a thing through to a certain degree with no other agenda than "let's see where this goes." If something meaningful develops, great. If not, that's the way it is when you are playing in the Sugar Bowl.

Move on, my brother, but don't slam the door on this one. She may come around to a more reasonable, realistic mind-set, something she might in reality be ok with. A condo? Can't fault a baby for trying!

Scott

[JoesParty]

Having only recently completed my reading this thread from oldest to newest, I know the members have discussed and analyzed in detail the topic of sugar negotiations. I had a first interview today, however, that causes me to revisit this issue.

The lady in question, SB3, is beautiful, funny, and a joy to be with. We were able to meet only briefly in a public place, so I do not yet know how the physical chemistry will develop. She was not shy, however, about noting that she has done this before, and I know, based on my preliminary research, that she also dabbles in the professional leagues. (She did not admit this to me, but I did not ask, either.) Needless to say, I'd like to get to know her better.

Having had season tickets in a few different leagues now, I know what the going salary is for a major leaguer. During our meeting, though, she noted that her last boyfriend bought her a car, a condo, and paid her junior college tuition. She said he was a millionaire, although this all could be, as we in the legal profession like to say, "mere puffery."

Specific remuneration amounts did not arise during our conversation, but I was firm in pointing out that I am not a millionaire, nor can I afford to live like one. I think she got the point, and she was direct that we should meet again soon. I will have to set my limits before then, lest I loose my senses (and my bank account balance).

What methods of self control work best when you know your limits, but the little brain keeps screaming, "Give her what she wants! She's gorgeous, and I haven't seen any action in a week!"?

In the end, I guess it's more of a rhetorical question, as we just had the GPS discussion earlier today. Better to move on than to lose more than you can afford. I'll keep you posted as we continue the negotiations.

Regards,

Joe