Rants and Stupid shit in Orange County

[Grimmy23]

First, I totally agree with you that there is a market of people who just want therapeutic massage. I get that. My take tho, and this is just my personal opinion, is that it's akin to people who go out for healthy food. Yes, some people just want a quick meal for nutrition, and nothing else matters, and that's it. On the other hand, there are people who care about nutrition, but they also like some nice atmosphere, maybe an outdoor patio to smoke and mingle, etc..

You are on point with your restaurant analogy. I've used my steak dinner analogy here many times. You want a steak dinner so you can go to Ruth's Chris and easily drop $100 a plate. Or you can go to Outback for $30, or a place like Norms for even less. There are people who will claim the cheap diner steak is just as good. It isn't even close, at least not to anyone with a refined enough palate to be able to distinguish good food from crap. The difference in the spa industry is most people will find their one therapist that they like and keep going back to that one. In contrast, in our little hobby, most of us like to have a variety of girls available to keep things interesting.

On the safety aspect, you're also correct in that other industries face many of the same things. Again, massage is a little bit unique in that our therapists are behind a closed door with a naked client and touching them all over (almost). That in itself brings liabilities you don't have with say someone going door to door selling solar panels.

Re: government, I don’t think too many people want authoritarianism, but “reasonable regulation” has a lot of importance to nearly everybody, whether they care to admit it or not. We don’t want the roads full of untrained, unlicensed drivers. When we go out to eat we want to feel reasonably comfortable that we aren’t going to get food poisoned because the restaurant has poor sanitation. When we get a therapeutic massage we want to be reasonably sure that we aren’t going to get injured by a therapist who doesn’t know what in the hell she’s doing, and that we aren’t going to catch some infectious disease by laying on sheets soiled in someone else’s bodily fluids. Granted, not too many people get injured from massage, but believe it or not it does happen. And there are a lot of things that are potentially dangerous. Have you ever been to an AMP where they used hot stones on you? Awesome. It feels amazing. But did you know that there are certain medical conditions where hot stone massage is contraindicated and can be potentially dangerous? Pretty good bet that the AMP that used the hot stones didn’t do a proper intake to gather that information - they just plopped the stones on you without asking. Diabetes, hypertension, cancer, heart disease, are autoimmune conditions are just a few conditions where hot stones can cause serious problems. That’s where training and regulation come in. And yes, licensing. Now again, California doesn’t have a license per se, it has a certification, which more or less serves the same purpose (assuring proper training and adherence to certain established protocols). The difference between the two has a lot of nuances that I won’t get into here.

If California goes to massage licensing, and there's a very real chance that it will happen after this year, I think the effect on the types of massage places that we discuss on this site will be fairly minimal. Almost every other state has massage licensing, and they all still have MPs. There will be a noticeable effect on some level though. Basically if any city decides that they don't want MPs on their turf they now have an easy way to push them out. Places like the much reviewed Bamboo for example- if Westminster decided they didn't want erotic massage in their town, Bamboo would have one choice. Get all of the girls licensed or find another town to set up shop in. A lot of cities around here don't really care about MPs as long as they aren't a public nuisance and there's no trafficking going on. They'd rather have that stuff in an MP where it's contained than in a cheap motel where there's a bunch of other crap going on. Cypress is one city that recently has been trying to squeeze out its MPs, but it's not so easy under the current structure. With licensing they just send code enforcement in and "oh, nobody here is licensed? Then you can't operate. " I'm not in favor of licensing- I'm part of the other side that's actively fighting to maintain more or less status quo. It's because California is a beast of a state with more government than most countries, and licensing here will turn into a bureaucratic cluster fuck. The industry doesn't need that. It's a tough fight though and still very much up in the air as to which way it will go. One way or another, by the end of this year we will either have licensing or we won't.

If it were up to me we'd have legalized body rub establishments in California, very much like they do in Toronto. You can go into one, get jerked off by a completely naked provider, even get some nuru type action or a soapy shower massage with full mutual touch, and it's all 100% legal. Toronto still has AMPs that are offering FS which is technically illegal, but if you want to go the cleaner, safer, legal route you can. The body rub places at least you know are clean because they are subject to the same health regulations as the therapeutic spas. That's one thing that grosses me out a little about MPs here. The sanitation standards at most are highly questionable. I even wonder about Bamboo a little bit. With as much traffic as they get, and knowing first hand what spa operations are like, I can't for the life of me figure out how they're getting all of their sheets and towels washed. You can't possibly do that much laundry. It hasn't stopped me from going to Bamboo but there are a lot of other AMPs I won't visit out of sanitary concerns.

[Nitescape]

Back to Soothe / Zeel. Again, I don't know their business practices, but if they aren't doing something to prevent stuff from happening, they're extremely foolish and putting their business in danger. Not even just sexual stuff. What about the "hey, give me a call directly next time instead of using the app and I'll give you a cheaper price?" You are correct in that there is no mandate to do that. They aren't even mandated to run background checks, but they're morons if they don't.

First, I totally agree with you that there is a market of people who just want therapeutic massage. I get that. My take tho, and this is just my personal opinion, is that it's akin to people who go out for healthy food. Yes, some people just want a quick meal for nutrition, and nothing else matters, and that's it. On the other hand, there are people who care about nutrition, but they also like some nice atmosphere, maybe an outdoor patio to smoke and mingle, etc. With the way things are going, many small businesses are going to close (if they haven't already). For example, many people I know will never patronize a restaurant again if they ask for a vaccination card. And many others (including myself) have stopped going to bars or clubs, because even before the pandemic, the atmospheres have become largely pointless in trying to mingle. The fun has been taken away, so why waste 15 dollars per drink, and 50 bucks on a meal.

What are the REAL issues? It seems you concede that the main issues are: safety, disloyalty (not selling the parlor's products but their own), and that's pretty much it. And these two issues can be addressed effectively with some effort. The real issue is THE GOVERNMENT. And are any of us pretending that the govt has noble intentions and is doing anything for our best interests? You yourself said that the entire hobby is at risk once the few places that can operate without license are taken away. And that sucks for the girls / providers, it sucks for the entrepreneurs, it sucks for the local economy, and it sucks for all the regular people who want services they can enjoy. To pretend that the govt is anyone's friend is to facilitate the authoritarianism that we are at war with. And for anyone here who enjoys this "hobby", you can't be ok with that unless you're ignorant to your own interests.

As to the other business issues, these are present in many venues. Every business who has sales people has to deal with the reality / possibility that their sales people will make side deals, or will join another company. That's nothing new. And I know of very few of these who send out "spies" to try to stop it from happening. You would end-up spending way more on the spies than if you just operated normally and let the chips fell. Sure a girl might scoop a customer in private here or there, but the free-market entrepreneur understands that a market isn't a set pie. That market grows and contracts, and often times when you have competitors you have access to much more profit and opportunity because that market is bigger. If there is a Downtown area with just one restaurant, it's often going to have less customers than a Downtown that has a lot of restaurants because the Downtown with a lot of restaurants becomes an attraction and pulls in a lot more people.

Also, specifically with massage, if a girl says "hey you can hire me privately", then she loses the assets of the place / agency she's working with. A girl on Zeel / Soothe goes on calls where there is a customer record. If anything goes wrong, there is more chance of recourse, and as such, it's much more of a deterrent than it would be if she takes that client privately. Even still, if that went on more often, how many more clients would Zeel / Soothe have? You know damned well that "mongers" want to see different girls. If this were more of a possibility, then Zeel / Soothe (and their girls) would likely have a lot more business and revenue. Which would be a good thing, would it not?

Anyways, this is just some of my thoughts, and I certainly am not claiming to have all the answers. I just think that today's victim-culture bullshit is infecting us all to the point where we lose the ability for common sense. It reminds me of the type of woman who works in Vegas as a cocktail waitress, but walks around with the "I'm oppressed" mindset because she's getting flirting attention. You specifically came to Vegas and the casinos because you know there is money to be made there. The whole reason there's money to be made there is because it's a fun atmosphere with the reputation of "Sin City". You could easily go to a conservative / traditional area and establishment, if that's what your values are. But you want the benefits of a culture / environment, while playing the victim and complaining as you receive those benefits. And if you are given your way, those benefits will dry up because so will that culture / environment.

[Taws6]

Would have cost you $20, FS was $60. Door rate were about the same though $40/ hh and $60/ hr.

I see a lot of posts recently about stability of prices. Or lack there of.

Some talk as been dated. Back a few decades. Apart from a trusted word of mouth, I would think that finding a reliable FS place was somewhat risky. Sure, take one for the team, but that would be hit or miss, and a lower yield endeavor.

With the internet and rating sites / review boards, I would think the demand has increased, with more mongers willing to venture out and get "into the hobby" where prior, it might have kept a large percentage of what we see now out. I know for me, I don't have buddies that we talk about fun outside. No one wants that risk of a coworker ratting, or a "friend" turning on you.

That would make me think that demand would push prices up.

However, the other side of that coin is with the review boards etc, the low mileage rub & tugs would loose business to the higher level of service places. Demand pushing the supply into more services to retain and attract customers, and new shops entering the market to meet the specific demand of FS entertainment.

I don't know the answer, but I would suspect that if fellow mongers continue to push places where reliable quality and service are to be had for a reasonable rate fewer recommendations for higher price point venues, that collectively, the consumer can drive the market. But I could be wrong.

[Grimmy23]

Nice info, but I suspect some of your motivation is drama and territorial. I haven't got time for that.
.

I will however staunchly defend the mainstream spa industry, as many people don't know how to distinguish it from massages in this hobby.

One area where you're a bit misguided is the reason people get massages. Years ago you got a massage to pamper yourself when you were on vacation. You were on a cruise ship or in a luxury resort and said what the hell, I'll drop a couple hundred bucks on a massage. These days, people get massages more regularly as a lifestyle choice. The emergence and growth of membership massage places like mine that make getting regular massages affordable has driven that. Yes, some are about pleasure and relaxation, but a large chunk of my clients get massages because they have some sort of chronic pain. CMTs are trained to work with that. The massages might even hurt like fucking hell, but the client feels better after leaving. If you know CMTs, most of them consider themselves healers. They're often very zen about it. Are there some that provide extras? Of course. I know a CMT operating her own private practice out of an office in Lakewood who will give you a HJ without batting an eye about it. But those are the minority. The vast majority take their training very seriously and get quite offended at any sexual innuendo over what they do. And as I pointed out, we (the spas) hire MTs based on their skills, not their looks or ability to give a good release. Anybody can jerk a guy off, but finding a trigger point that is causing a client pain and taking the steps to relieve that pain requires a lot of training. I have 14 MTs on my staff right now and you wouldn't necessarily want to see any of them naked or get a HJ from any of them.

My estheticians on the other hand are all under 30 and all pretty hot, and we've had guys try to cross the line with them by either flat out asking for a handjob or just grabbing their ass. Fortunately it has been very few because it doesn't end well for the guy. I'll just leave it at that without elaborating, but in every case where it has happened I've had a very shaken young female employee to deal with who I usually had to send home for the rest of the day. That costs me a lot of money in cancelled appointments but I do what I need to do and take care of my team. So yeah, some women will push all boundaries aside for the sake of making more money, but the vast majority won't.

Back to Soothe / Zeel. Again, I don't know their business practices, but if they aren't doing something to prevent stuff from happening, they're extremely foolish and putting their business in danger. Not even just sexual stuff. What about the "hey, give me a call directly next time instead of using the app and I'll give you a cheaper price?" You are correct in that there is no mandate to do that. They aren't even mandated to run background checks, but they're morons if they don't. There has to be a deterrent in place. It's kind of like a burglar alarm on your house. It's not going to catch a burglar. If someone breaks in they're going to smash a window, grab what they want, and be long gone before the cops even get dispatched. But having the alarm system makes it far less likely that you get broken into. Hell, even having just a sign outside saying you have an alarm makes you a less likely target even if you don't really have an alarm. Same thing applies here. You have to at least tell them that you're monitoring "for quality control purposes. " Even if you're not actually doing it, they're far less likely to stray from protocol if they think they just might get caught. And if someone does for example get caught in a sting and LE comes after your business, you can open your operations manual and employee manual and show them that you have procedures in place, and that takes a lot of legal burden off. I actually do it in my business, albeit not very often, but just often enough that I have documented records that we have preventative procedures in place.

I suspect Zeel and Soothe are trying to do what Uber tried (but failed) when AB5 passed. Uber basically said "we're not in the transportation business. We're in the software business. All we do is write an app that independent drivers use to find customers looking for rides. " It didn't fly with the courts.

[BenderOver]

Can someone go today?

Holy crap Slammer? Why the campaign? I get she's going to be gone a bit, but are you asking us to TOFFT or to go and see the beauty you discovered and already conquered? .

*thumbs up* buddy.

[SaltyDog]

Since a few people like to ridicule my expertise and insight on the legit massage industry, and I don't want to get into another pissing match on the MP thread, I thought I'd elaborate here. And if anybody still has any doubts, let 'er rip. I'm a straight shooter telling it the way it is, whether it's what people like to hear or not. This is going to be long so bear with me.

First off, I personally have no issues with a legit massage ending with a HJ. It's harmless and even healthy. It's stress relieving and thought by some to reduce blood pressure and risk of getting prostate cancer. Unfortunately the laws in our country don't agree, so legit massage places have to comply. There's also the stigma in our society. Nobody wants their legit spa turning into a jack shack. Also, legit places hire therapists based on their massage skills. They have to or they go out of business. If happy endings become the norm, now it's a slippery slope. You have to hire girls who are good looking, willing to get naked or at least partially naked, willing to give HJs, and don't mind being touched. And then it may not necessarily stop with a HJ. You'll always have customers pushing for more. That's why as much as I advocate for legit massage with happy ending, I don't think happy endings will ever mix with true therapeutic massage in this country. Too many complications. I have a staff full of amazing CMTs, but not one that you'd want to get a HJ from or see naked.

Now, what started this off was someone wondering about getting a HJ from Zeel or Soothe, and I said probably not. That's where the ridicule kicked in. Said poster didn't seem to care much for my professional insight.

Imagine for a moment that you own a legit massage establishment. You invested your life savings in it and literally have everything on the line, including your house as collateral. I'm talking hundreds of thousands of dollars on the line here, nothing you can easily recover from if you screw up. If you lose your business you lose everything. No, this is not unrealistic. It's how most of us finance our businesses. It's extremely scary shit for a few years until you get profitable. Now with all that in mind, don't you think you're going to take every possible measure to protect your business? You bet your ass you will. Now what's one of the biggest things keeping you up at night, other than making rent and payroll every month? You're now a business owner and an employer, and you own a business where your customers get naked behind a closed door with members of your staff. If that doesn't scare the shit out of you, you're in the wrong business, or you don't belong in business at all. SO much room for SO many things to go wrong. Lawsuits happen ALL THE FREAKING TIME, all over the country. Two big scenarios loom:

Scenario 1 is the most common: Male MT with female client. Obvious room for misconduct there, and unfortunately it happens frequently. MT improperly exposes the female client, or inappropriately touches something, and she sues you for hundreds of thousands of dollars and probably wins because it's all behind closed doors, her word against yours. You have little to defend yourself with.

Scenario 2 is less common, but still happens more than you probably realize: Female MT seeing male customers who make unwanted advances, try to inappropriately fondle, etc. Female MT sues the business for sexual harassment and not providing a safe, secure work environment. More of a difficult case, but believe me they happen quite a bit.

Various other things worry business owners because of the behind closed door thing. Say an MT gives away expensive upgrades to keep her clients coming back. Things like a hot stone add-on that would normally cost extra she does for free. She's using company supplies, so she's basically stealing from the business. Or say she offers to see a customer outside of work for a cheaper price. Stealing clients from the business. That stuff is hard to monitor and keep in check because you just don't know what happens behind that closed door.

Now consider Zeel, Soothe, and other "delivery" massage places. Now it's more than just "behind a closed door. " Your employee (or independent contractor) is literally in the customer's house and now doesn't have the protections your spa might offer. Unlike a spa where if something goes sideways she can just step out the door into safety, in someone's house it isn't that easy. And it doesn't matter if you live in a nice gated community in OC or if you're in the projects in Watts. Your employee is working in someone else's environment that you have no control over. Again, if that doesn't scare the crap out of you as an employer, then you're totally out of touch with what employers have to deal with every day.

So what do you do? You put whatever controls in place that you can to make DAMN sure you're providing a safe, secure workplace. In a brick & mortar spa it's easy. The CMT can just walk out of the room. Some spas even have hidden panic buttons that the CMT can push to summon help. And you (and your management) make sure that if any guy crosses the line or attempts to cross the line, you throw his sorry ass out of your business and even report to authorities if necessary. You have to back your employees up 100%. If you don't, you're setting yourself up for major trouble.

Secret shoppers: I mentioned this and got openly ridiculed. Being behind closed doors, there's a lot of room for the CMT to cross the line too. Not only sexual misconduct stuff, but stealing products, stealing clients, offering their own retail products that are cheaper than what the spa offers, etc. The ONLY way you stop those things from happening is to plant the thought in their heads that we have people going in for services who report back to us. Every spa owner I've ever met does that. I have a handful of them. Some of them are just friends of mine who are regular customers who tell me what goes on. Some are random people who I reimburse for their massages and nobody but me knows about them. Nobody but me knows how often they come in or how many there are. In reality they don't come in very often. I have a busy spa and don't have to be giving away a lot of services. But the point is they're out there and the staff knows they're out there, so it's a cheap and easy way of keeping them in check. I will stop short of saying I know what Zeel's or Soothe's standard business practices are, but I'd be stunned if they weren't doing something similar. It costs next to nothing and it's an easy quality control tool. You just find a small handful of people who you occasionally have book a massage and give you feedback. They're not employees or even contractors. If you think it's a laughable matter, then again you're out of touch with reality. All it would take would be for a female CMT to get groped in a couple dudes' houses. Best case she quits, worst case she hits you with a harassment / unsafe workplace claim.

Now, I heard Zeel and Soothe compared to delivery services like instacart. Just pay the driver a little extra to make an extra stop on the way and pick up some stuff not normally authorized for delivery, no problem because "everyone needs money. " News flash: Massage isn't instacart, or postmates, or door dash. It's a licensed profession. CMTs have to go to massage school which costs a fair amount of money, and they have to take an exam, and they have to pay licensing fees. They can't legally practice their trade without their credentials. It is their way of making a living. If they do something improper and get their credentials suspended, now they have to find something else to do for a living. It's not like they're just downloading an app that enables them to deliver groceries for money as a little bit of a side gig, and if they get in trouble with that company they just go to a different one. In massage, if you screw up, you're done. You'll never get another massage job again anywhere in the US.

Think there's no "blacklist" for therapists who get in trouble? Think again. Being a licensed profession, every legit massage business that exists does a full background check, not only on new hires, but usually once a year after you've hired them. Part of that background check includes checking in with the state certification agency. If they have an infraction against their license there is no way for them to hide it. All of their current employers will know, and any future prospective employers will know. There's your blacklist. If someone gets fired for giving handjobs or anything else, industry standards demand a thorough investigation, and that includes reporting the incident to the certification board (or licensing board, depending on the state). IN ADDITION TO THAT, there is a relatively new nationwide "Employment Verification Database" for spas that will include any such incidents. Again, this is something that only came about in the past year or so, mostly as a result of the dumbass shenanigans that happen at Massage Envy, but it is quickly gaining traction. Today it is at least theoretically possible that someone could lose their credentials in California, move to another state, go through the licensing process there and completely evade detection. Once the new database gains traction that will no longer be possible since there is a national database in addition to the state database.

Is all of this harsh and over the top? Remember that you're a business owner who probably invested hundreds of thousands of dollars in your business, so you have to go to all extremes to protect that. You don't want to risk losing everything because a couple of your employees were giving handjobs under the table and you chose to look the other way.

So laugh all you want. This is all the reality of the industry and how things work. If you still think this is all "hilarious," I have nothing left to tell you that will change your opinion.

Even with 14 paragraphs I ain't laughing. I hear ya!!

[Nitescape]

I got ridiculed

Nice info, but I suspect some of your motivation is drama and territorial. I haven't got time for that.

ON THE TOPIC, there will always be a struggle between govt and private business. Any person who is a fan of free markets, opportunity, and not having a nanny-state run your life should be against authoritarianism (generally speaking). As the business owner here points out, there are some forces in play that could really fuck things up for your favorite hobby, and not just in mainstream massage / spa places. The more that people roll over or roll out the welcome mat for authoritarianism, the more govt will come in. I wonder how many people are aware, for example, of the bills being pushed through the CA legislature right now, that will do things like create a statewide vaccine database, mandate every employer to comply, take away parental authority and awareness of their own child, etc. There's a reason why so many people and businesses are fleeing the state and why homelessness and crime are skyrocketing.

I think it's smart to be cautious and strategic. I don't think it's smart (or helpful) to roll-over for authoritarianism, nor facilitate it.

As for Zeel / Soothe, they don't even respond to messages from their therapists so I highly doubt they are engaged to the point of "secret shoppers" to make sure no one gives a handjob in the privacy of your own home amidst two consenting adults. I'm also pretty sure there is no mandate by the state that a business send out "secret shoppers" in order to avoid liability. But this is the society we've created, where comedians are afraid to tell a joke, males on a college campus are afraid to look at a female, and people are afraid to even think a common sense thought, for fear of authorities.

Whether someone wants to admit it or not, half the appeal of massage is pleasure (at least half). Yes you can create a sterile, therapeutic, examination room atmosphere to ensure that no one ever feels a moment of pleasure and so that there is almost no chance of a frivolous lawsuit, but just like mandates and most other govt regulations, you're going to kill your own market. And as there are less businesses, less customers, less jobs, less people with money. Desperation grows, and even the people who think they are in a safe niche will get touched (eventually).

On a side note, a CMT friend of mine would tell me stories (this was 4-5 years ago) about a 5-star resort spa in the Newport Beach area where the girls weren't just giving HJs but were doing the whole nine. Some people want to make money, as opposed to being good little subjects to authoritarians. And I would argue that safety and discretion are more valued by most smart business owners as opposed to corrupt govt bureaucrats, who simply use that notion as a pretext in order to gain power and control over the populace. But govt and authoritarians are definitely on the March, and who knows, maybe we'll end-up like Australia where we can't come out of our own homes except for 1 hour out of the day and with our smartphone to monitor our position and activity at all times.

[Grimmy23]

Too bad we don't have a list of cities that are small business friendly.

If you mean AMP friendly, you don't need a list. We all know where the hot spots are. If there's a lot of MPs there that have been around a long time, you know what the city's attitude about them is.

My city is very small business friendly, but its muni code requires all massage workers to be CAMTC certified. If you're a legit massage place the certification is a given anyway. You're not going to hire anyone who isn't certified so it’s not that big of a deal. Some cities will only require one person on staff to be certified, or one certified person must be on shift at any given time. Cypress and Stanton are like that. Of course it's no surprise that when they get visited for a random inspection there's never any certified therapists to be found. It's all a matter of how lax the city wants to be in its enforcement.

Years ago when I lived in Downey, and long before I ever thought I'd find myself owning a spa, I went on a ride along with a Downey PD officer for a day. He actually pointed out every MP in town to me. There are about 6 of them and they've all been around for 20-30 years. He pointed out the blacked out windows, the neon open sign, all that stuff. He said they know exactly what goes on in there, but as long as they don't become a public nuisance and draw a lot of complaints they generally just let them be. They'd rather have it happening in there where it's contained and relatively harmless than in say the cheap motels in town where there's usually other stuff going on (drugs, street prostitution, armed robberies, and various other criminal activity). There's even an AMP in Downey right across the street from a high school. It's been there for at least 25 years and it doesn't bother anybody. If you weren't a monger you wouldn't even know it existed. Now if used condoms started showing up in the neighborhood that would be a different story.

[Taws6]

but places like Stanton that have a bunch of MPs don't require certification. Cities with strict enforcement of massage regulations generally don't have MPs.

Too bad we don't have a list of cities that are small business friendly.

[Grimmy23]

Here's an interesting study that I found online. Some informative info.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4529837/

One obvious thing they totally overlooked. It's a little complicated, but in California we have a massage "certification" instead of a massage license. The difference is that certification is voluntary- some cities require it to practice massage within their limits, some don't. Some cities are far more lax with their muni codes than others. Guess where the MPs tend to cluster. I haven't done any formal research, but places like Stanton that have a bunch of MPs don't require certification. Cities with strict enforcement of massage regulations generally don't have MPs.

As I've mentioned before, some of the legislators are pushing hard to move California to a licensing structure. We're one of only 3 states that doesn't have one. I'm working to prevent that, not just for the sake of the hobby but for many other reasons.

[ChrisPoontang]

Here's an interesting study that I found online. Some informative info.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4529837/

That is interesting. I'd like to see a study that shows if there is a correlation between massage parlors and prostate cancer.

I would argue that communities served by massage parlors have lower rates of prostate cancer since guys have more chances to empty their sacks.

Obviously I would want the peer reviewed article to use phrases like emptying sacks, blowing wads, shooting loads and bareback grannies.

[Wireless91910]

Here's an interesting study that I found online. Some informative info.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4529837/

Since a few people like to ridicule my expertise and insight on the legit massage industry, and I don't want to get into another pissing match on the MP thread, I thought I'd elaborate here. And if anybody still has any doubts, let 'er rip. I'm a straight shooter telling it the way it is, whether it's what people like to hear or not. This is going to be long so bear with me.

First off, I personally have no issues with a legit massage ending with a HJ. It's harmless and even healthy. It's stress relieving and thought by some to reduce blood pressure and risk of getting prostate cancer. Unfortunately the laws in our country don't agree, so legit massage places have to comply. There's also the stigma in our society. Nobody wants their legit spa turning into a jack shack. Also, legit places hire therapists based on their massage skills. They have to or they go out of business. If happy endings become the norm, now it's a slippery slope. You have to hire girls who are good looking, willing to get naked or at least partially naked, willing to give HJs, and don't mind being touched. And then it may not necessarily stop with a HJ. You'll always have customers pushing for more. That's why as much as I advocate for legit massage with happy ending, I don't think happy endings will ever mix with true therapeutic massage in this country. Too many complications. I have a staff full of amazing CMTs, but not one that you'd want to get a HJ from or see naked.

Now, what started this off was someone wondering about getting a HJ from Zeel or Soothe, and I said probably not. That's where the ridicule kicked in. Said poster didn't seem to care much for my professional insight.

Imagine for a moment that you own a legit massage establishment. You invested your life savings in it and literally have everything on the line, including your house as collateral. I'm talking hundreds of thousands of dollars on the line here, nothing you can easily recover from if you screw up. If you lose your business you lose everything. No, this is not unrealistic. It's how most of us finance our businesses. It's extremely scary shit for a few years until you get profitable. Now with all that in mind, don't you think you're going to take every possible measure to protect your business? You bet your ass you will. Now what's one of the biggest things keeping you up at night, other than making rent and payroll every month? You're now a business owner and an employer, and you own a business where your customers get naked behind a closed door with members of your staff. If that doesn't scare the shit out of you, you're in the wrong business, or you don't belong in business at all. SO much room for SO many things to go wrong. Lawsuits happen ALL THE FREAKING TIME, all over the country. Two big scenarios loom:

Scenario 1 is the most common: Male MT with female client. Obvious room for misconduct there, and unfortunately it happens frequently. MT improperly exposes the female client, or inappropriately touches something, and she sues you for hundreds of thousands of dollars and probably wins because it's all behind closed doors, her word against yours. You have little to defend yourself with.

Scenario 2 is less common, but still happens more than you probably realize: Female MT seeing male customers who make unwanted advances, try to inappropriately fondle, etc. Female MT sues the business for sexual harassment and not providing a safe, secure work environment. More of a difficult case, but believe me they happen quite a bit.

Various other things worry business owners because of the behind closed door thing. Say an MT gives away expensive upgrades to keep her clients coming back. Things like a hot stone add-on that would normally cost extra she does for free. She's using company supplies, so she's basically stealing from the business. Or say she offers to see a customer outside of work for a cheaper price. Stealing clients from the business. That stuff is hard to monitor and keep in check because you just don't know what happens behind that closed door.

Now consider Zeel, Soothe, and other "delivery" massage places. Now it's more than just "behind a closed door. " Your employee (or independent contractor) is literally in the customer's house and now doesn't have the protections your spa might offer. Unlike a spa where if something goes sideways she can just step out the door into safety, in someone's house it isn't that easy. And it doesn't matter if you live in a nice gated community in OC or if you're in the projects in Watts. Your employee is working in someone else's environment that you have no control over. Again, if that doesn't scare the crap out of you as an employer, then you're totally out of touch with what employers have to deal with every day.

So what do you do? You put whatever controls in place that you can to make DAMN sure you're providing a safe, secure workplace. In a brick & mortar spa it's easy. The CMT can just walk out of the room. Some spas even have hidden panic buttons that the CMT can push to summon help. And you (and your management) make sure that if any guy crosses the line or attempts to cross the line, you throw his sorry ass out of your business and even report to authorities if necessary. You have to back your employees up 100%. If you don't, you're setting yourself up for major trouble.

Secret shoppers: I mentioned this and got openly ridiculed. Being behind closed doors, there's a lot of room for the CMT to cross the line too. Not only sexual misconduct stuff, but stealing products, stealing clients, offering their own retail products that are cheaper than what the spa offers, etc. The ONLY way you stop those things from happening is to plant the thought in their heads that we have people going in for services who report back to us. Every spa owner I've ever met does that. I have a handful of them. Some of them are just friends of mine who are regular customers who tell me what goes on. Some are random people who I reimburse for their massages and nobody but me knows about them. Nobody but me knows how often they come in or how many there are. In reality they don't come in very often. I have a busy spa and don't have to be giving away a lot of services. But the point is they're out there and the staff knows they're out there, so it's a cheap and easy way of keeping them in check. I will stop short of saying I know what Zeel's or Soothe's standard business practices are, but I'd be stunned if they weren't doing something similar. It costs next to nothing and it's an easy quality control tool. You just find a small handful of people who you occasionally have book a massage and give you feedback. They're not employees or even contractors. If you think it's a laughable matter, then again you're out of touch with reality. All it would take would be for a female CMT to get groped in a couple dudes' houses. Best case she quits, worst case she hits you with a harassment / unsafe workplace claim.

Now, I heard Zeel and Soothe compared to delivery services like instacart. Just pay the driver a little extra to make an extra stop on the way and pick up some stuff not normally authorized for delivery, no problem because "everyone needs money. " News flash: Massage isn't instacart, or postmates, or door dash. It's a licensed profession. CMTs have to go to massage school which costs a fair amount of money, and they have to take an exam, and they have to pay licensing fees. They can't legally practice their trade without their credentials. It is their way of making a living. If they do something improper and get their credentials suspended, now they have to find something else to do for a living. It's not like they're just downloading an app that enables them to deliver groceries for money as a little bit of a side gig, and if they get in trouble with that company they just go to a different one. In massage, if you screw up, you're done. You'll never get another massage job again anywhere in the US.

Think there's no "blacklist" for therapists who get in trouble? Think again. Being a licensed profession, every legit massage business that exists does a full background check, not only on new hires, but usually once a year after you've hired them. Part of that background check includes checking in with the state certification agency. If they have an infraction against their license there is no way for them to hide it. All of their current employers will know, and any future prospective employers will know. There's your blacklist. If someone gets fired for giving handjobs or anything else, industry standards demand a thorough investigation, and that includes reporting the incident to the certification board (or licensing board, depending on the state). IN ADDITION TO THAT, there is a relatively new nationwide "Employment Verification Database" for spas that will include any such incidents. Again, this is something that only came about in the past year or so, mostly as a result of the dumbass shenanigans that happen at Massage Envy, but it is quickly gaining traction. Today it is at least theoretically possible that someone could lose their credentials in California, move to another state, go through the licensing process there and completely evade detection. Once the new database gains traction that will no longer be possible since there is a national database in addition to the state database.

Is all of this harsh and over the top? Remember that you're a business owner who probably invested hundreds of thousands of dollars in your business, so you have to go to all extremes to protect that. You don't want to risk losing everything because a couple of your employees were giving handjobs under the table and you chose to look the other way.

So laugh all you want. This is all the reality of the industry and how things work. If you still think this is all "hilarious," I have nothing left to tell you that will change your opinion.

[Grimmy23]

Since a few people like to ridicule my expertise and insight on the legit massage industry, and I don't want to get into another pissing match on the MP thread, I thought I'd elaborate here. And if anybody still has any doubts, let 'er rip. I'm a straight shooter telling it the way it is, whether it's what people like to hear or not. This is going to be long so bear with me.

First off, I personally have no issues with a legit massage ending with a HJ. It's harmless and even healthy. It's stress relieving and thought by some to reduce blood pressure and risk of getting prostate cancer. Unfortunately the laws in our country don't agree, so legit massage places have to comply. There's also the stigma in our society. Nobody wants their legit spa turning into a jack shack. Also, legit places hire therapists based on their massage skills. They have to or they go out of business. If happy endings become the norm, now it's a slippery slope. You have to hire girls who are good looking, willing to get naked or at least partially naked, willing to give HJs, and don't mind being touched. And then it may not necessarily stop with a HJ. You'll always have customers pushing for more. That's why as much as I advocate for legit massage with happy ending, I don't think happy endings will ever mix with true therapeutic massage in this country. Too many complications. I have a staff full of amazing CMTs, but not one that you'd want to get a HJ from or see naked.

Now, what started this off was someone wondering about getting a HJ from Zeel or Soothe, and I said probably not. That's where the ridicule kicked in. Said poster didn't seem to care much for my professional insight.

Imagine for a moment that you own a legit massage establishment. You invested your life savings in it and literally have everything on the line, including your house as collateral. I'm talking hundreds of thousands of dollars on the line here, nothing you can easily recover from if you screw up. If you lose your business you lose everything. No, this is not unrealistic. It's how most of us finance our businesses. It's extremely scary shit for a few years until you get profitable. Now with all that in mind, don't you think you're going to take every possible measure to protect your business? You bet your ass you will. Now what's one of the biggest things keeping you up at night, other than making rent and payroll every month? You're now a business owner and an employer, and you own a business where your customers get naked behind a closed door with members of your staff. If that doesn't scare the shit out of you, you're in the wrong business, or you don't belong in business at all. SO much room for SO many things to go wrong. Lawsuits happen ALL THE FREAKING TIME, all over the country. Two big scenarios loom:

Scenario 1 is the most common: Male MT with female client. Obvious room for misconduct there, and unfortunately it happens frequently. MT improperly exposes the female client, or inappropriately touches something, and she sues you for hundreds of thousands of dollars and probably wins because it's all behind closed doors, her word against yours. You have little to defend yourself with.

Scenario 2 is less common, but still happens more than you probably realize: Female MT seeing male customers who make unwanted advances, try to inappropriately fondle, etc. Female MT sues the business for sexual harassment and not providing a safe, secure work environment. More of a difficult case, but believe me they happen quite a bit.

Various other things worry business owners because of the behind closed door thing. Say an MT gives away expensive upgrades to keep her clients coming back. Things like a hot stone add-on that would normally cost extra she does for free. She's using company supplies, so she's basically stealing from the business. Or say she offers to see a customer outside of work for a cheaper price. Stealing clients from the business. That stuff is hard to monitor and keep in check because you just don't know what happens behind that closed door.

Now consider Zeel, Soothe, and other "delivery" massage places. Now it's more than just "behind a closed door. " Your employee (or independent contractor) is literally in the customer's house and now doesn't have the protections your spa might offer. Unlike a spa where if something goes sideways she can just step out the door into safety, in someone's house it isn't that easy. And it doesn't matter if you live in a nice gated community in OC or if you're in the projects in Watts. Your employee is working in someone else's environment that you have no control over. Again, if that doesn't scare the crap out of you as an employer, then you're totally out of touch with what employers have to deal with every day.

So what do you do? You put whatever controls in place that you can to make DAMN sure you're providing a safe, secure workplace. In a brick & mortar spa it's easy. The CMT can just walk out of the room. Some spas even have hidden panic buttons that the CMT can push to summon help. And you (and your management) make sure that if any guy crosses the line or attempts to cross the line, you throw his sorry ass out of your business and even report to authorities if necessary. You have to back your employees up 100%. If you don't, you're setting yourself up for major trouble.

Secret shoppers: I mentioned this and got openly ridiculed. Being behind closed doors, there's a lot of room for the CMT to cross the line too. Not only sexual misconduct stuff, but stealing products, stealing clients, offering their own retail products that are cheaper than what the spa offers, etc. The ONLY way you stop those things from happening is to plant the thought in their heads that we have people going in for services who report back to us. Every spa owner I've ever met does that. I have a handful of them. Some of them are just friends of mine who are regular customers who tell me what goes on. Some are random people who I reimburse for their massages and nobody but me knows about them. Nobody but me knows how often they come in or how many there are. In reality they don't come in very often. I have a busy spa and don't have to be giving away a lot of services. But the point is they're out there and the staff knows they're out there, so it's a cheap and easy way of keeping them in check. I will stop short of saying I know what Zeel's or Soothe's standard business practices are, but I'd be stunned if they weren't doing something similar. It costs next to nothing and it's an easy quality control tool. You just find a small handful of people who you occasionally have book a massage and give you feedback. They're not employees or even contractors. If you think it's a laughable matter, then again you're out of touch with reality. All it would take would be for a female CMT to get groped in a couple dudes' houses. Best case she quits, worst case she hits you with a harassment / unsafe workplace claim.

Now, I heard Zeel and Soothe compared to delivery services like instacart. Just pay the driver a little extra to make an extra stop on the way and pick up some stuff not normally authorized for delivery, no problem because "everyone needs money. " News flash: Massage isn't instacart, or postmates, or door dash. It's a licensed profession. CMTs have to go to massage school which costs a fair amount of money, and they have to take an exam, and they have to pay licensing fees. They can't legally practice their trade without their credentials. It is their way of making a living. If they do something improper and get their credentials suspended, now they have to find something else to do for a living. It's not like they're just downloading an app that enables them to deliver groceries for money as a little bit of a side gig, and if they get in trouble with that company they just go to a different one. In massage, if you screw up, you're done. You'll never get another massage job again anywhere in the US.

Think there's no "blacklist" for therapists who get in trouble? Think again. Being a licensed profession, every legit massage business that exists does a full background check, not only on new hires, but usually once a year after you've hired them. Part of that background check includes checking in with the state certification agency. If they have an infraction against their license there is no way for them to hide it. All of their current employers will know, and any future prospective employers will know. There's your blacklist. If someone gets fired for giving handjobs or anything else, industry standards demand a thorough investigation, and that includes reporting the incident to the certification board (or licensing board, depending on the state). IN ADDITION TO THAT, there is a relatively new nationwide "Employment Verification Database" for spas that will include any such incidents. Again, this is something that only came about in the past year or so, mostly as a result of the dumbass shenanigans that happen at Massage Envy, but it is quickly gaining traction. Today it is at least theoretically possible that someone could lose their credentials in California, move to another state, go through the licensing process there and completely evade detection. Once the new database gains traction that will no longer be possible since there is a national database in addition to the state database.

Is all of this harsh and over the top? Remember that you're a business owner who probably invested hundreds of thousands of dollars in your business, so you have to go to all extremes to protect that. You don't want to risk losing everything because a couple of your employees were giving handjobs under the table and you chose to look the other way.

So laugh all you want. This is all the reality of the industry and how things work. If you still think this is all "hilarious," I have nothing left to tell you that will change your opinion.

[OCpyro]

The discrepancy might be due to shill account reviews. It's pretty easy to work out if you read the other posts by the reviewers.

Time to put a stop to this. Mods should ban all mention Rabbit, and ban the users who continue to shill for her.

Wasn't she the one who scammed someone out of a lot money last visit?

[Edward Appleby]

First of all, I have not seen Rabbit, so this is not based on my personal experience. The primary reason that I've not attempt to see her is that there are so many conflicting reports on her services and menu. When she was here last year, there were initial reports of BBFS and then later there were conflicting reports of everything covered, including CBJ. Now there is report of BB greek? Granted I've not participated in this forum for a long time, but I've not recalled a provider with such discrepancies in her menu.

The discrepancy might be due to shill account reviews. It's pretty easy to work out if you read the other posts by the reviewers.