"Sugarbabies" / "Arrangements" Amateurs or Not?

[Beachesnole02]

So I do fully acknowledge that if am still doing this when I'm 70 or whatever, it is unlikely that I will be able to meet true sugar babies in their 20's.

Sheee-it my clock is ticking. Just wondering, how many of you guys are like me and over 60? And when are you guys going to share pictures of some of your adventures so it is not just the superstar HG and me?

[JZLizard]

I guess everyone's goal here is the same. To take an amateur and turn her pro. Whatever they or we want to call it, is just semantics. We're just talent scouts and they are all princesses in training hoping to hit in the bigs. Sometimes we get the ugly step sister and sometimes they get the frog. But it doesn't stop either side from trying.

For me, the goal isn't quite to take an amateur and make her a pro. It is simply to add sexual variety to my life by banging girls that would be more difficult for me to bang any other way. I'm a middle-aged guy. I'm holding up well for my age, but in the civy dating world that's often not enough. An 18-25 year old girl cares about what friends in her think, so not all of them are open to dating someone old enough to be their dad. I've had young women flirt with me and literally come onto me in a bar, only to disappear as soon as they learned my actual age. It didn't matter if they were initially attracted to me, the stigma of my age is enough to put them off. It's a disturbing buzz-kill when that happens. Every now and then I will meet a civy girl on a dating site that is open to dating someone my age, but they are not in ample enough supply to meet my needs and most of them were spoiled by their fathers and are looking for a replacement so it's surfing very close to SB territory at that point.

By scouting the SD sites, I have removed my primary obstacle -- my age -- because 100% of the girls on that site have already decided they will accept older men (often even preferring them). By removing that obstacle I have created a great efficiency, which is important since I can only hunt for pussy variety a few weeks out of the year. Next, SBs are typically not looking at an SD as a future husband -- this actually greatly increases our chances of fucking them with or without payment, simply because they do not get caught in the mental loop of asking themselves whether or not you are relationship material. If you look liked Brad Pitt, and the girl is evaluating you as a future life partner, you might have to wait in line a lot longer to actually get laid than if you look like Bruce Willis and she just wants a good casual encounter with an experienced partner. SBs know that because SDs are older and have more to lose, they are less likely to become needy or stalk the girl if things don't work out.

Now as far as payment goes, it's no secret that most young women who are hot are not exactly personal finance wizards and often have needs and wants that are way beyond the reach of their income level. Hell that's true of most women even if they aren't young and hot. But the ones that have already submitted a profile to an SD site have already advertised themselves as falling into this category, so it's a matter of picking the easy fruit off the tree so to speak (a bonus when I have only a few weeks out of the year to try to do this). If I were not in a relationship I would just go back to civy dating because it would be easier to simply take them to dinner then back to my place for some fucking. Problem is I can't take them back to my place when I live with my GF, and building up a good stable of women in the civy world takes a bit of lead time (multiple weeks at least for me), so that won't work for me.

I also enjoy paying them. It adds an element of raunchiness to it and creates a sort of an emotional separation (I consider it sort of like an insurance policy that they are not going to create an emotional dependency on me). This might be what you mean by we enjoy turning amateurs into pros? In that sense then yes I would agree that I like introducing money into the relationship. But, it's harder for me to think of it as trying to turn them into pros. There were times when I tried to offer money to civy girls I dated 20-25 years ago for the same reason (because doing so is kind of a turn on and also to create the separation I mentioned). There were times when they literally handed me back an envelope full of cash and said "here I don't want this" without ever looking inside to see how much was there. So it's hard for me to say if they had accepted it, they would instantly be the same thing as a pro (escort or UTR), because husbands hand their wives money all the time.

[HollywoodGuy]

I guess everyone's goal here is the same. To take an amateur and turn her pro. Whatever they or we want to call it, is just semantics. We're just talent scouts and they are all princesses in training hoping to hit in the bigs. Sometimes we get the ugly step sister and sometimes they get the frog. But it doesn't stop either side from trying.

[HollywoodGuy]

I'm saying that if we approach every girl with an offer to have sex for money, we can conclude that all of those who accept the offer are sex workers, but from a sheer logical standpoint we cannot then conclude that all sugar babies are the same as the ones that responded to our ad or initial contact. There is an entire population of SBs who think about this much more like dating, and it would be inaccurate at best to discuss what a SB is or isn't without including that population for consideration. A population of SBs who might never even respond to the first e-mail of someone they believe is looking for a pro.

Whatever they were thinking prior to my initial contact, I don't want them under any illusions after it. They are getting paid to make me happy (vis a vis sex). I try to put it in the context of them having an equally good time doing something they have fantasized about anyway. It's never shameful to get paid for a job well done. If some of them are offended (and many are, although not by my offer to have sex, but by the pay scale), so what? For me the direct approach is still the best. And a fair number of the girls are true NP first timers. I challenge them to have enough game to meet and be able to satisfy an experienced guy. Quite a few have stepped up to the plate ready to swing for the fences.

[JZLizard]

JL, you seem to be more in the dating genre with your ladies, rather than hard core old daddies like me and many others. I am so much older that my target group that there is virtually no chance that a 20 + yr old will look at me as a casual BF. That's not to say that attraction and fondness doesn't happen.

We have debated the concept of Pro vs Amateur ad infinitum and everyone has an opinion. Usually it depends on how we (all) want to be seen. I stick by my definition of money for sex. "companionship" means sex unless the SD is unable to get his crank working. I would tell any woman who asks that she is an escort (sexually speaking) if she requires payment to service a guy. Liking to be paid and requiring it are 2 different things. If an SB takes care of your business and doesn't state that you owe her $ XYZ then I would say she is not a Pro.

I am lucky to have 2 POTs active right now, completed the M&Gs and have a scheduled FC soon. Both said that they will leave it up to me what I do. I'm encouraged because they come over as non pros who need a little help. We'll see how things progress.

I didn't mean for my response to seem unnecessarily contrary, we are in complete agreement in some ways -- that girls who pre-agree to sex for money are in fact sex workers. I'm just trying to address the bigger picture of what is an SB versus what is a pro beyond just your opinion and mine (it is the title of the thread after all), and I was under the impression you're asserting they are the same thing in all cases, so I'm offering up the assertion that this is not always the case. I don't like to disagree with anyone just for the sake of disagreement, but I also feel compelled to add clarity whenever someone asks a question and present an opposing view when something seems out of kilter.

I'm not trying to sell my opinion as fact, I'm saying that if we approach every girl with an offer to have sex for money, we can conclude that all of those who accept the offer are sex workers, but from a sheer logical standpoint we cannot then conclude that all sugar babies are the same as the ones that responded to our ad or initial contact. There is an entire population of SBs who think about this much more like dating, and it would be inaccurate at best to discuss what a SB is or isn't without including that population for consideration. A population of SBs who might never even respond to the first e-mail of someone they believe is looking for a pro.

So I do fully acknowledge that if am still doing this when I'm 70 or whatever, it is unlikely that I will be able to meet true sugar babies in their 20's. Maybe my definition of an SB will shift to be a 35-40 year old at that point. And, if I am still doing it I will be happy to bang pros / UTR girls, etc. In the college age group. But, I don't ever want to be under the impression that because that's what I'm meeting, that nothing else exists. There is an entirely different type of SB out there, that someone who assumes they are all pros may never get the chance to meet.

It's kind of like if someone asked me if SBs are mostly into BDSM; on a hunch I could probably say "no, hardly any of them" and it would be accurate based on my own experience. But then I have to realize, I'm not really into BDSM other than maybe some spanking and daddy play, so it's highly likely that I haven't been pushing the right buttons to meet that portion of the SB population. It doesn't mean they aren't out there, it just means I haven't been luring that type with my bait.

[FredMoore]

JL, you seem to be more in the dating genre with your ladies, rather than hard core old daddies like me and many others. I am so much older that my target group that there is virtually no chance that a 20 + yr old will look at me as a casual BF. That's not to say that attraction and fondness doesn't happen.

We have debated the concept of Pro vs Amateur ad infinitum and everyone has an opinion. Usually it depends on how we (all) want to be seen. I stick by my definition of money for sex. "companionship" means sex unless the SD is unable to get his crank working. I would tell any woman who asks that she is an escort (sexually speaking) if she requires payment to service a guy. Liking to be paid and requiring it are 2 different things. If an SB takes care of your business and doesn't state that you owe her $ XYZ then I would say she is not a Pro.

I am lucky to have 2 POTs active right now, completed the M&Gs and have a scheduled FC soon. Both said that they will leave it up to me what I do. I'm encouraged because they come over as non pros who need a little help. We'll see how things progress.

[JZLizard]

An SB is a sex worker because she usually requires money in exchange for sex that she provides her SD. An escort is also a sex worker, just a different degree of activity.

I think the key difference is in whether the girl agrees to provide sex for money or not. None of my SBs have ever agreed to a pre-arranged amount of cash for sex (I'm not including takeout strippers as SBs here). Once an SB agrees to sex for cash, then you're right they have just signed up for being a sex worker. Therefore, if in searching for POTS we send out offers for cash for sex we are only going to lure sex workers -- real SBs would probably never even answer the mails. This may be creating the perception that all SBs are sex workers.

If they agree to cash for companionship only (which technically they are supposed to be doing), they are still by legal definition not a sex worker even if they do provide sex in addition to the companionship they agreed to provide.

A lot of men are married, and they give their wives shopping money or gift money or access to their checking account, whatever, and if they don't they know they won't get sex or their wife will possibly even leave. By your definition above, most men's wives would be sex workers too. The difference I will cite is that these wives never technically agreed to sex for money. They are not breaking any laws and are therefore not sex workers.

[FredMoore]

I'd like to know what defines a sugarbaby versus an escort GFE?

My name on AF or SipSap is Raidersgal. I have 1 guy 1 see every week. Or at least 3 times a month. And the sex is OVER THE CHARTS. If I could find 1 or 2 more guys like that. I'd be done. So, does that make me an escort? Do "sugarbabies" only have 1 guy? Just looking for input from the guys perspective. Each time I see my regular he leaves 3 $. Sometimes it's 3 hours, sometimes 6 or even sometimes overnight.

Just looking for input. Thanks in advance.

Cheers!

K.

Sex worker: one who requires money in return for sex. This would include all from Street walker up to courtesan seeing one guy at a time. The key is the necessity of the two elements together. Sex and money.

Non sex worker: One who dates one or more partners for the fun of it, where neither sex nor money is guaranteed. Both might be exchanged in a "civie" relationship but are not requirements.

The key element for you K,is whether you would see him (and others) even if money did not exchange hands. If you would not then I believe that you would qualify as a sex worker.

An SB is a sex worker because she usually requires money in exchange for sex that she provides her SD. An escort is also a sex worker, just a different degree of activity.

[HollywoodGuy]

Wish me luck pot 2.

[HollywoodGuy]

Wish me luck pot 1

[JZLizard]

I second that. I have a college baby who would rather see me and get fucked silly than a big old fat man who will just eat her out and do nothing more and help her almost double than me. And I agree there is usually a very fine line between SB and UTR.

Another distinguishing feature of a true SB's versus pros I've noticed:

Escorts tend to hide what they do from their friends and family. SB's will flaunt their sugar daddy and even take him home to their parents in some cases.

I had one college SB take me to a bar district where people she knew commonly hung out. We were in a club all of about 10 minutes when she saw some friends she knew from high school. I thought she might want to hide or be discreet? Nope. The opposite. She grabbed me by the hand and pulled me over and clung onto me like I was her best boyfriend ever, as she talked to them. Made me feel like I was her trophy catch.

To most true SB's, there is no shame in having an SD, there's honor in it -- it's almost like a status symbol for them. Something to flaunt, not hide. Their families do not display shame that they do it. They sometimes post pictures of themselves with their SD traveling on FB, clearly labeling him for what he is, sometimes you see comments of encouragement from their moms and sisters!

It's just not considered prostitution to many people to have an older date on your arm that spoils you. Some of them find themselves juggling multiple random SDs for per-encounter payments, and yes they are just crossing over into UTR but a true SB is still a far cry from just putting an ad on BP and letting someone random book an appointment over the phone.

A lot has been written here about acceptance / rejection percentages. Escorts don't reject. True SB's reject more than they accept.

It's sort of the same on the SD side of the equation, right? Your middle-aged friends will be more impressed that you have a young girlfriend even if you are taking care of her financially than if you're just spending per date on a hooker that would bang anyone. It's the same way from the point of view of a true SB.

It seems not too different what's ultimately going on between the two situations (SD/SB or a john/hooker) but the same can be said about marriage where the wife is getting honey do stuff done in exchange for sex.

I find SB's to be more proud of what they do than the average stripper. Some strippers are perfectly open about what they do, whereas others try to hide it from their family. I think sugar babying is actually seen as less shameful than exotic dancing, whereas escorting is still something to be ashamed of for a girl.

[Brian139]

I second that. I have a college baby who would rather see me and get fucked silly than a big old fat man who will just eat her out and do nothing more and help her almost double than me. And I agree there is usually a very fine line between SB and UTR.

Case in point for one of my another true college grad SB: God I loved her. When we started texting, we made plans for Saturday brunch and fun afterwards, but Friday evening, we sexted some and and she got turned on big time, drove to my place wearing no panties, looking hot. We started kissing and she was already dripping wet. We had awesome sex, no protection, and I only helped her with a gas tank when she left. We met several times afterwards, I took her to shopping too. But note that an escort would not be happy for amazing sex and just a gas tank. She would have dismissed me for being cheap.

An escort has chosen this as her profession, is willing to take a chance of legal risk, for the most part will screw anyone for the right amount.

Basically a true SB wouldn't just screw indiscriminately for payment. But you'll find girls on SD sites that do. You might find girls that start out with SB intentions and find themselves falling into a more UTR pattern or eventually just becoming an all out escort, complete with BP marketing campaign.

[JZLizard]

I'd like to know what defines a sugarbaby versus an escort GFE?

An escort has chosen this as her profession, is willing to take a chance of legal risk, for the most part will screw anyone for the right amount. Slightly higher up the ladder you have UTR girls who do not want the legal risk so they don't advertise or put themselves in such significant legal jeopardy. They work mostly off word of mouth referrals or "less public" methods than BP advertising. A UTR girl understands she might not make as much as an advertised pro, because she fucks clients in lower volume. But, she will still fuck for the right price usually without caring what her customer looks like, how good he is in bed, who he is or what he has achieved in his life.

The true SB chooses her dates based on how attracted to them she is. Maybe she's hot for older men, maybe she just places a high value on her pussy and wants to be able to buy things that are out of her reach for her age and her position in life. 99% of the time it's a combination of both. Her standards for looks can be relaxed somewhat because financial success of a male partner is more attractive to all females anyway -- they don't see physical flaws as much if they see you are good at what you do and earn a good living doing it. So ultimately what attracts her to the SD is a combination of things with an expectation that a good financial position exists in all of them. She may or may not be looking for cash payment as much as she's looking for a well-to-do boyfriend. She may be in college but a very career-focused type who wants someone who can show her a good time and also help her get out of the financial conundrums that young females constantly create for herself. She looks at herself in the mirror each day and thinks "I'm so fucking hot, why would I date someone my age with no money when I can get a real man and live the good life at the same time?

Notice that last paragraph is about the "true" SB. This does not mean that you will meet true SBs every time on an SD website. There are lots of UTR girls and escorts who are SB wannabes, and there of course is not a concrete / black and white line that defines any of these categories.

Basically a true SB wouldn't just screw indiscriminately for payment. But you'll find girls on SD sites that do. You might find girls that start out with SB intentions and find themselves falling into a more UTR pattern or eventually just becoming an all out escort, complete with BP marketing campaign.

[Dirty Dingus]

I'd like to know what defines a sugarbaby versus an escort GFE?

My name on AF or SipSap is Raidersgal. I have 1 guy 1 see every week. Or at least 3 times a month. And the sex is OVER THE CHARTS. If I could find 1 or 2 more guys like that. I'd be done. So, does that make me an escort? Do "sugarbabies" only have 1 guy? Just looking for input from the guys perspective. Each time I see my regular he leaves 3 $. Sometimes it's 3 hours, sometimes 6 or even sometimes overnight.

Just looking for input. Thanks in advance.

Cheers!

K.

I think there are SB's that only have one guy, but there are quite a few that have several different guys. What makes her a SB rather than an escort? I think an escort might advertise and see numerous guys, and some only once or twice; whereas, a SB sees just one guy on a regular basis or maybe a couple guys on regular basis. In some cases its a very thin line as to which is which, and sometimes that line is crossed from one field to another.

[HollywoodGuy]

Ok, to me, sex is like pizza, even when it's bad, it's still good. But most of us have been around here and we've had everything from bad to earth shattering sex with these girls we meet. I'm curious with these SB's how many of you, or how often are you getting great sex with these girls? I know each experience is different, but so far my first few SB's were full on GFE to the max, lately it's been more just getting off. Which is fine, but I prefer more the entire experience. Also, what percentage of your SB's are truly 100% into you and the sex? I'm not asking for an ego driven response here, as we all have our own methods for getting inside their panties, rather I'm trying to gather what the percentages of these girls are truly sexually inhibited enough to really set out to get their own pleasure physically from this sort of arrangement.

My initial guess based on my limited experience is about 1/3 are, the rest just focus on the almighty dollar.

The numbers are low. When I get a keeper, I try to keep her. Bad 1st date sex means no more dates. Sometimes killer 1st date sex leads to less than good follow ups. The qualification to be a regular, is that they regularly do a good job. It's a numbers game. Paying more can help, but for me the budget must be kept. Not lookin to go broke.