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No offense to anyone on this forum, but don't you all think you're being just a slight bit paranoid here?
Speaking in general terms about P4P or whatever term you call it, is in no way incriminating yourself. Country John, you used to be LE, you should know this best of all. I would seriously venture to guess about 1/3 of the total post on the WSG guide forum are fake! LE still has to catch you in the act of propositioning. Simply writing about it in a forum is not incriminating. They could possibly use it against you in a case, but it would have to originate from something outside the realms of this forum.
And further more, technically, prostitution might be illegal, but trust me, it's not the worst crime to commit. Cops are much busier chasing gangsters and drug dealers toting guns, then to worry about some guy going through a middle age crisis and posting egotistically about paying for pussy on a message board!
So people, keep the info coming, keep it real. Nobody is going to kick in you door for posting here. Sure I'm sure they read it and if there are numerous reports in a specific area, they might send someone to check it out, but trust me the swat team is not going to surround your home at 3AM.
GETTINGTANG~!
PS And further more, as i have said time and time again. My posts are always fictional. Nothing I post is in any context with any sort of time frame, or has any ring of truth to it!
With all due respects go GettingTang, I have to strongly disagree with your comments regarding SD's "finest". There are no bigger chickens than the SD PD. This bunch of scum would be rather harassing a SWs and johns rather than dealing with drug dealers, pimps and serious crime. I have seen it with my own eyes.
A few months ago I was back in SD cruising ECB and watched as a squad car stopped a SW and talked to her and arrested her. Less than a block away, 2 black dudes where dealing drugs right on ECB!! I couldn't believe it. I almost (I repeat almost) went up to the cops and asked them what they were going to do about the drug deals, but with my luck they would have arrested me for loitering!
Let's face it, the cops would much rather deal with individuals they know won't take a shot at them or make them work to hard. Mongers and SW are not usually a violent bunch and due to the stigma, are willing to do whatever is necessary to make things "cool". Cop's get higher arrest numbers, meet quota, DA's get more convictions and they get more rhetoric for their election campaigns. "everyone" is then happy. Except for the people who live in the area and ahve to put up with the real dangerous types, including pimps, dealers, thieves, etc...
But hey, they can then say they have cleaned up the streets. Let's face it, cops are just out to save their own skin and stick it to the city on an injury/disability as soon as they can. The best thing that could happen to the SD PD is a major budget cut since the city will be out of money! They deseve to be walking the unemployment lines!
I'll get off my soapbox now!
Be safe out there!
AHT169
With all due respect to all who are in fact due respect (and you know who you are), it may be impossible for you to comprehend this but you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to LE. You have no reality on what it's like, on the danger or anything else. The best you can do is sit on your ass and criticize.
You chose to engage in illegal activity and then blame it on the cops -how juvenile.
You think you are being a tough guy and post these long winded dissertations about how terrible the cops are. You ain't shit.
You have no idea what you are talking about yet you go on and on like some huge injustice has been done to you. Somebody made you behave because you couldn't behave yourself and now you're gonna flame the cops on a public forum -wow.
The LE who read these posts know exactly how to treat you when they CATCH you man. After reading the shit you post, if I were you I would not wonder anymore about why LE carries on the way they do when they catch you. You deserve EVERY bit and maybe more. Their view of mongerers is influenced, among other things by what you write here and if you don't give a shit about it then why the hell are you posting it?
Yeah I'm EX LE and I am damn proud of it. The best you can do is post some half wit panty waist dilettante milk toast fucking brain fart about how terrible everything is and how miserable the cops are. Well FUCK YOU. Maybe we should turn everything over to you right? Let you run it right? Sure. You wouldn't make it.
Next time you see vice grinding some poor mongerers face into a video camera on COPS or Channel 7, give yourself a big pat on the back son because YOU probably had something to do with it asshole. You just don't get the message.
See you on TV.
Country John
I have to side with Country John on this one. We are in America and one reason why it is so damn cool here is because the cops keep people from running it into a shithole. Also, being the democracy it is the majority has decided, no matter how much we may disagree, that mongering and girls trading the use of their bodies for money (prostitution) is against the law. The cops do not make the laws, they enforce them.
We choose to disobey those laws and lurk about looking for some cutie that will trade a few bucks for riding the baloney pony. It is at this point that we become adversaries of the law and society. From here you can decide to be a respectful adversary or one who is a disrespectful ass on top of breaking the law. Frankly I think the smart move is to remain respectful. Respecting ones adversary is the wisest move you can make, at a minimum it will keep you on your toes and keep you from getting sloppy, careless and caught by your adversary.
Cops have a crap job. They are the same as garbage collectors except they get to deal with the two legged, trash talking, disrespectful garbage. A thankless job to say the least.
Now do I wish the cops would devote more time and budget money to things like car theft rings, gangs, drug dealers, etc and in the process leave the nearly victimless crime of prostitution alone? Absolutely! Will I complain or grumble about it when the pickings are slim on ECB? Sure will. Is it necessary to be disrespectful to the street cops actually doing their jobs? Not at all.
The cops aren't deciding to oppress you, to single you out and harass you specifically. You are breaking the law, intentionally by choice and that puts you in their cross hairs.
I hope for your and all of our sakes that we are able to monger without finding ourselves in those crosshairs. If you do end up there just remember, it is you who put yourself there in that situation, not them.
TD
Country John, if I may address your last post:
Tang: First of all, I do have the most respect for LE, as I have said numerous times. With all aspects of their jobs, except for one. This has to do with the act of prostitution. I do not believe it should be fully illegal. Perhaps regulated and controlled, but not a blanket crime. By the way, many politicians feel the same way. In fact 60% of Americans when polled, do not feel paying for sex should be a crime!
Quote CJ: "You chose to engage in illegal activity and then blame it on the cops -how juvenile. end Quote"
Tang: We know the act of mongering is illegal. This is where the problem stems from. We do not feel it should be illegal in the first place. Jay walking is illegal too.
QUOTE CJ: "You think you are being a tough guy and post these long winded dissertations about how terrible the cops are. You ain't shit."
Tang: This again is not fully true. Some of us are in fact shit. I happen to be 6'2" 245 pounds, have a brown belt, and boxed for 6 years in the core. I'm a vet who fought for my country and continues to support the war on terror! I stand the liberty for all Americans! Again, I simply disagree, the paying for sex, is a crime. It hurts no one!
QUOTE CJ: " You have no idea what you are talking about yet you go on and on like some huge injustice has been done to you. Somebody made you behave because you couldn't behave yourself and now you're gonna flame the cops on a public forum -wow."
Tang: So essentially what you're saying is you agree with LE stance on aggressively pursuing those who pay for sex? Read between the lines and you are. So I would pose the question then, what are you truly doing in this forum??
QUOTE CJ: "Yeah I'm EX LE and I am damn proud of it. The best you can do is post some half wit panty waist dilettante milk toast fucking brain fart about how terrible everything is and how miserable the cops are. Well FUCK YOU. Maybe we should turn everything over to you right? Let you run it right? Sure. You wouldn't make it."
TANG: Well finally something I can sort of agree with. I don't think painting a broad brush of LE is proper. They do have their place and do deserve respect. There are lots of LE officers who are very good and understanding people. Who do care about their communities and do try and do things right!
QUOTE CJ: "Next time you see vice grinding some poor mongers face into a video camera on COPS or Channel 7, give yourself a big pat on the back son because YOU probably had something to do with it asshole. You just don't get the message. "
TANG: Again, in my opinion it has now become all to clear why you are here, it's not to monger and share with the rest of us. You agree fully with the fact that paying for sex should be illegal. Sometimes the truth comes out when someone is heated. You being ex LE, should know this best. Whatever work you had here, for whatever reason is now done. You have been exposed and by your own doing!
GETTINGTANG~!
Country John, So much for your promise to move your discussions of LE to the opinions and editorials board. It was nice while it lasted.
No one is denying that cops have a tough job. And most of us know that the individual cops enforcing prostitution and other bogus laws are simply following directions of their superiors: in most cities the Chief of Police and the Mayor. Like most of us, they want to keep their jobs and try to follow directions.
The problem lies in the way they seem to relish destroying some poor guys life who's done nothing more than pick up a prostitute. You see them laugh and high-five each other when they get to impound a vehicle and joke about what the "perverts" wife is going to say when she finds out. I think most mongers do treat the police with respect. I know I am always respectful and try to treat them with courtesy and dignity. But I've never seen it returned. I've said hello to officers before with no acknowlegement from them whatever. I am not a cop, therefore I am not a human being. They even have an acronym for junkies, homeless people, mongers, etc which is NHI. It stands for No Human Involved. For the police to get respect they also have to give it.
I too am suspicious of Country Johns reports. For someone who is ex-LE he sure dishes out a lot of disinformation. On the Anaheim board he said in one post that if you ask a cop if he/she is LE they have to tell the truth. If they don't then it's clear sailing provided you make an illegal recording of their denial. He said just to ask the policewoman to show her breasts. Someone who is even a little familiar with LE and mongering is aware of the intent to solicit laws. Then a day later he admitted that LE can lie and often does. Which is it? Following CJ's advise will get your car impounded and get you arrested.
But I doubt if CJ is really a threat. I don't believe he is working in conjunction with any agency. I think he must be extremely bored, with a hell of a lot of time on his hands to post 157 reports in just over six weeks. He's practically written Gone with the Wind on the Morality of Prostitution thread. I have faith that our tax dollars are not going to pay this windbag to write sometimes fourteen posts a day in his extremely difficult to read and verbose style.
I'm sure this post will result in his writing an additional twenty pages of rebuttal and vaguely worded threats about how LE is going to humiliate me if I ever get arrested for mongering because I don't support arrogant police rookies roughing up prostitutes and mongers. Or maybe he will keep his promise and move his obvious infatuation with LE somewhere else.
Civ 2000,
Yes, that quote about police women working vice having to tell the truth, if asked about being a cop, had me wondering too.
I don't think he is L.E. at all, but rather a retired security guard, when not writing on this forum is watching 'COPS".
No legitimate police agency would have anything to do with a depraved individual like this. He could never get past the background checks.
If he was a real cop all police would be ashamed of him.
Sorry, this is off the topic of looking and finding pussy. But his writing and love of L.E. makes me crazy.
My personal story and why Prostitution should be accepted.
I grew up in a home where my father was an alcoholic. He was never directly abusive, but was a drunk. The reason my father took up the bottle as his prescribed medication was for an escape from reality. He was married to my mother who was very mentally ill. She was quite unstable and in those days, you kept things of this nature to yourself. There was no profession help or medication. My father and mother had separate bedrooms for over 30 years. They never had sex, or any form of intimate relations. In those days, there was no such thing as abandoning your family and getting a divorce. My father took up his woes in a bottle. This is how he dealt. I would have much rather scene my father, take up the hobby of mongering. It did exist in those days too. (World's oldest profession) Had he lived in this day and chosen to take up mongering as a release from reality and to fulfill his sexual needs, would this have made him a criminal? Would this had led to a group of undercover cops high filing each other and boasting egotistically as civic 2000 puts it, because they just ruined a Man's life? And for what? This is wrong.
No cop knows the real reason why another man mongers. We all have our own issues. For some it's simply the sport and variety of different girls. For others it's a "dope date" where all they are really looking for is companionship. For others, it's the simple act of needing a sexual release. (anyone ever heard of a surrogate sex partner, this actually is called therapy and can be deemed legal, yet the guy is paying for sex! )
I challenge every monger on this board to ask your next hoe you hook up with this question:
"How often do you get dates, where the guy just wants to talk, maybe some petting, or spooning, etc.? If the girl is not some strung out crack hoe and has been at the trade for a while, she will likely respond with a figure of about 20% or 1 in 5 dates!
My point here, is cops, or LE, do not always "know" the reason why a man might be engaging in paying for sex. Or a lack there of. Often the guy will proposition the girl for a sexual service, but actually have no intentions of having sex. When they arrive at the spot to do the deed, he might reveal he just wanted some company, or companionship. This happens far more then most of you realize. Yet, had this girl been undercover, his life as he knows it, is likely to be over.
Even in the event where sex takes place, it should not be the government's business. Our sex lives, unless they bring harm to another human being, is not a crime. We are each born with our own sexuality, and it is our own moral and personal tastes that will guide our preferences.
Once again, I have no beef with LE, I'm not a cop hater. I don't call them bad names. I would call myself an outstanding citizen of this country. I'm 100% law abiding and have respect for all human beings. I have never smoked, drank more then a few with diner on occasion, I don't smoke. I drive the speed limit, I have a good job, I give to numerous charities every year. I'm very much involved in my community and local politics when I can be. I own a home, my neighbors think I'm great. etc, etc, etc.
My personal weakness, besides not being in a situation where I am able to have sex when i want. I like a variety of different girls. I get bored easily. Whenever I date. I'm very polite, a bit on the shy side. I tend to over tip and treat the girls nicer then probably any boyfriend they have ever had. I respect them. This will often result in my getting a true GFE. Sometimes i get stepped on, but not usually. About half the girls i have been with truly enjoy the sex and do get into it. This is another point for LE to haggle with. Many of these girls, will often enjoy themselves. Seriously! Now i know many will say they are faking it, or i'm full of crap. But to those who have been at this for a while, soon realize, it's true. Women, like men, enjoy sex! Many enjoy selling! Is this a crime? LE will all try and paint this pitty picture about how the poor working girl is totally being taken advantage of. In many cases this might be true, but is equally as many, it is not! Many indoor providers, truly do enjoy their trade! They aqctually like meeting new men and enjoying sexual experiences with them. I ask you again, when done discretly and in a manor where no person gets hurt, is this a crime?
So tonight, i have not had sex for three weeks, I decide to run down to my local AMP and get a discreet massage. Just as she is slipping on the condom, the door gets kicked in, the place is being raided. I get busted for solicitation. My life ends as I know it. I ask you, is this right, is it fair?
GETTINGTANG~!
As always, just my two cents worth on this topic, based on fictional events from my imagination!
Civ
You're right - I promised to take this to another forum.
I'm not here to prove anything to anyone. I'm getting good info off the forum and having a lot of fun out there mongering when I can. Some of you get it, some of you don't. Now that we know who's who we can get on with the show.
Be Safe and BE NICE
Country John
Edit:
Just stopped by to have a look at our new digs. . . .nice.
Thanks Jackson for creating this area for us. We'll try to clean up after ourselves!.
Geez Country John, Now that we have our own section I don't have anything negative left to say.
Since this has wandered into a new forum, I hope you all won't mind if pitch in.
I grew up around cops, as my dad was one, and I spent a couple of years as a police officer trainee a million years ago. (I even went on a prostitution sweep once back when I was a pup, which was probably at least partially responsible for my subsequent fascination.) I think one very key issue this discussion is overlooking is this -- by and large, it's not individual cops who are making the decision to make concerted efforts to go after prostitution. That's coming from up top -- from either the senior folks in the police department or from the mayor or other politicos.
Cops don't generally focus on this stuff unless they get complaints from the neighborhood folks or unless there's a policy. Policy on prostitution comes from on high -- there are instructions to "reduce the visibility" of it, or to make examples of people. Individual police officers have nothing to say about impounding cars or putting people's pictures in the paper, on websites, or on TV. Cops are foot soldiers -- they're the proverbial little dutch boy sticking his finger in the dike to stop the water and hoping for help. That's true whether you're talking about prostitution, drug-dealing, whatever. So the real anger for any of this should be directed at the fat cats who make policy and the self-righteous who make victimless crimes illegal.
If I was in a vice squad and I was charged with enforcing prostitution laws (and had no qualms about doing so) I'd most certainly read this forum for info about where the action is. But not to target individuals -- that's both virtually impossible in a forum such as this and pointless, as anything here is fairly useless in terms of arresting anyone, unless someone's dumb enough to say, "I'm gonna go cruise such-and-such street at 11pm -- you boyz give me a shout out if you see my white F150 Heritage." In that case you're too stupid to live in any event, and if the cops don't get you something else will.
Many fundamentalist Islamic societies have religious police who go around making sure everyone is obeying their particular interpretation of religious law, including things like praying 5x/day, men having beards, and women being properly covered. In so-called secular western societies, victimless crime laws and vice cops fill this function, and sometimes regular cops also, of course, since it is what they are supposed to do. Just because we don't have overtly religious-baased law and law enforcement doesn't mean we're all that different from societies which do. Certainly prostitution prohibition is puritanically based if not directly relgion based, and cops who enforce it might just as well be termed the puritan police.
Defending puritan police by saying "they're just following orders" is like defending soldiers who knowingly kill civilians, murdering them in cold blood, on orders from their superiors. Cops who bust victimless crime participants do a great deal of harm, whether they realize it or not, and should not be defended by anyone who is offended by the existence of victimless crimes such as prostitution.
JoeZ:
Nice to see you in the Cop Flaming Section! Get that asbestos suit on man! So you're ex LE eh? I knew there was something funny about you ;-)
I owe you a response in the other forum and as soon as I get Santa back up the chimney I'll sit down and bang it out.
People who have not had the training (or the inclination) simply do not understand the LE mentality and that's why they make their outrageous statements about LE. Anyone with LE background understands better how the system works than people with no background as would be expected. Most of the posts I've seen were the same old rhetoric. I welcome disagreement but the mindless dribble - well - what can I say.
Vice was always interesting but I also realized that there were lots of other things I could be doing. Important to remember is that if the SW scene was left to it's own devices, there would be major crime issues that would grow out of the trade. Serious stuff like dope and strong arm robberies and the like. If this sort of crime can be prevented or reduced by a crack down on something as easy as prostitution then let's go with the easier thing -right?
I always felt a little bit sorry for the John, jeez, the guy was looking for a blow job and he was even willing to give the girl money for the deed, now he has a lot of explaining to do and I know that a lot of homes and hearts got broken over it. But they still could not and should not blame the cops. Johns in this forum are placing themselves too high on the food chain. The prostitution scene is only a small part of a very big crime picture.
The typical half-wit moron response to that statement would be something like "....yeah man, that $10. I paid for a blow job is going directly to Bin Laden. . . ." So you're lucky to get anyone to understand this stuff outside LE - hence the flaming.
There is considerable immaturity on this subject. Based on the attitudes and emotions on this board, vice detail will temper their attitude accordingly when the pressure is off and the john is in custody. It is important for players to realize that WE place OURSELVES on the playing field and are therefore "fair game." Something most people in this forum fail to realize.
I also agree that we are telling LE how to catch us. (They already have a lot of data on our MO, I mean what could be easier.)
Maybe we need another section called "I Got Busted."
I remember one time listening to a 459Biz suspect complaining to his partner about the cops being pricks for "interrupting his caper." Man, we were all lower than anything that crawls on the ground without legs. Well, sorry champ, we'll try harder next time to let you make it out before we get there!
To be perfectly honest, if I got VT and GT (not diseases) in an operation and knew who they were from this board, I'd have one hell of a time with them. Just because of their attitiude. (It would all be in good fun - no public parading etc. but just some laughs on the street.) They can't understand this. They don't mind flaming the cops in a public forum but get all wrapped around the axle when it happens to them. Whatever happened to "turnabout" being fair play?
Now I'm sure that the vice reading this will be quick to point out that they do not engage in this sort of behaviour but that is bullshit. A good laugh at the end of a long day is something we all enjoy and they deserve a good chuckle just like we do, even if it is at our expense, not out of cruelty, but in good fun.
So being safe and being smart is how we should do our thing. The cops place a heavy emphasis on being safe and being smart in all operations. We can do it and I think we need a little more organization in that particular area.
Civ:
'Cmon, I know you've got something left in there - open up! You're a medical guy right? Saw a very interesting post from you in another forum. I'll try not to provoke you.
Have a safe and happy holday all.
Country John
PS: I'll be at Holt and Indian Hill tonight at 9:00 in a red Chevy Blazer with tinted windows and a black ski rack looking for SW's. Yeah right!
PS2: LE - thanks for all you do. Be safe and we'll see you on the streets.
Well, VT, again I disagree with you. Should I be excoriating individual American soldiers because they participated in what I considered to be an unjust war in Iraq? Should I spit on every Vietnam vet because I believed that to be another? Should I be condemning as a Nazi every alderman who hasn't voted for legal gambling in my town? By your reasoning, every enforcer of a law or policy that has opposition, of any kind, not only should be questioned but placed in the same category as those who commit crimes against humanity. That's hyperbolic bullshit.
Gee, time for me to get my gun and take out the zoning board, those immoral bastards...
Country John, personally I always felt sorrier for the women than for the johns -- they are trying to make a living, and a generally lousy one at that, and they are at far greater risk, whereas with Johns, ourselves included, the whole scene is an "optional" one -- i.e. your comment about becoming "fair game." But by and large in my town there was very little enforcement or focus on prostitution beyond reacting to the complaints of various businesses and homeowners about the high visibility of streetwalkers and the attendant traffic they brought. Vice only went after prostitution when it simply got to be too "in your face" aggressive, otherwise it was the drug trade, the numbers racket, etc.
I absolutely believe prostitution should be legal, but that doesn't mean that it's somehow pristine right now in its manifestations -- there are still ties to violence, robbery, (anyone here ever been ripped off by a prostitute? I bet there's a law you'd prefer to have the same cop you call a bastard enforce) the hard drug trade, etc. Yes, legalizing it would get rid of lots of those things, but until that happens they're still there.
You know, when I worked in the city jail, I used to say, please lord, tonight give me murderers and rapists, give me arsonists and car thieves, but please, please, please, don't give me normal citizens who have screwed up by being drunk, obnoxious, rowdy to the point of breaking something or taking a poke at someone, caught with their pants down, whatever. Because the latter were always the ones who were going to try to hurt me physically. The hardcore criminals knew they were caught, knew what they did, and didn't blame the cops -- unlike the normal citizen, for whom every policy ought to change simply because it can't possibly apply to them, and who blame those enforcing the laws for their problems as opposed to themselves. These same folks who fight like wild animals being locked up for DUI would scream, at the top of their voices, that the police were to blame if their kid got mowed down by someone with a blood alcohol content half of what they had, if their window was the one that got broken, or if the hookers were servicing tricks in [i]their[/i] driveway.
If I'm engaging in the pay-for-play trade in the US, unless I'm in those rare spots in Nevada, I'm at risk. It's a risk I have to be willing to assume to play at this point. I believe the laws ought to be changed. But I'm sure as hell not going to blame someone else if I get burned, and I'm not going to kill the messenger -- we all go into this with our eyes open.
Toby Keith has a new country music video titled AMERICAN SOLDIER which vividly dramatizes the sacrifices which men and women in the armed forces must make. The same analogy obviously holds true for LE. In an imperfect world, someone must perform dangerous and distasteful tasks to further the cause of peace and social order, and for that these people deserve respect and appreciation from everyone.
[size=-2][u]EDITOR's NOTE[/u]: [blue]Posting of this report was delayed pending revisions for [u]capitalization[/u]. To avoid future delays, please refrain from using the "chat room" style of writing with no caps or punctuation. [i]Thanks![/i][/blue][/size]
Regarding the subject Country John, ex L.E. using mulitple I.D.'s.
to meet up with unsuspecting members of this forum.
Ever since the big bad wolf in "Little red riding hood" there hasn't been a person trying so hard to meet mongers down in TJ using deviate ways.
First of all I am not going to name these splits personalties. I would not want to "libel" anyone in the unlikely event I could be wrong. I don't have the sophisticated software "Getting Tang" has, but I had my suspicions. I also don't want to do all the work if you want to meet C.J. in TJ you should check a few things out yourself.
Here is what I came up with and methods I used:
1. Longwinded blustering styles lacking content. In other words nothing specific, names, dates, places.
2. Posting to each other, using same windbag style.
3. Irritatating style, makes your skin crawl reading the mulitple I.E.'s.
4. Having two names xx zzzzz, however we have one names also.
5. Same writing style, paragraphing, finish.
6 etc,etc,etc,
C.J. tries to defend himself by trying to get Jackson to verify if he is using different names. Im sure Jackson has better things to do. But, even if Jackson tried to defend him, it would not help.
C.J. Could easily post from another computer at home, work, family member, internet cafe, etc. All of these would show a different I.P address,
If he knows a little about computers he could use proxy servers, to hide is I.P. address. If he is a criminal( corrupt cop) vice cop, he could use proxy servers, and remote ones, chaining them together, so it would be very hard to trace him. Oh, by the way, He might have ways to get your I.P address, by "pinging" you just talking on this Forum, especially if you email him.
I hope I didn't scare anyone of the Big Bad Wolf.
Pornstar King came up with a very good scenario regarding C.J.
and he is a newbee to this forum.
"
Another possible scenario is CJ is not LE but is in fact ex-LE who has gone bad and become a drug smuggler. He builds confidence, gets you to bring your car in then has a kilo of cocaine planted underneath your car. You drive your car back across the US border unsuspectingly, which makes you a perfect cover. Then he uses his LE ties to run your license plate info find out where you live and goes and retrieves his package. If you get stopped and popped at the border no skin off his back because he'll just find another "deputy" here on this board to do his dirty work."
Hey, this makes sense, CJ could be ex vice, doesn't vice do both drugs and prostitution? We already know from his writings he is depraved, he cheats on his wife(oh well lots of mongers do) But the big one is even if he is ex L.E. he is not upholding his promise to uphold the law. He picks up SW's in the states.( thats a crime according to him you should be busted)
Things just don't add up. He claims to be an experienced monger, but yet, meets up with " pimp hustlers" type guys to get SW's in the alley. He says he has business in TJ. What kind of business can an ex cop have in TJ? What does he do, have a factory hiring cheap labor? Or is he talking to his drug lords thinking of ways to plant drugs in your car, or blackmail you. He also believes
that TJ cops are hard working, he says never offer them a bribe?
He puts out lots of disinformation, for example, in the states, just ask an undercover lady cop, if she is a cop and she has to tell you the truth. ( yah right)
Heres is the big one to me. He no longer invites me to TJ for operation AlleyKat II. The reason, he knows I never drive my car in TJ. He can't plant anything in my car.
I know, most of you don't believe this. I understand, heck some of you even do Chica's sin-condom,(without a condom) so why would you be scared to meet with C.J.
May I suggest if there are lots of you,meet him in a dead bar like other forums do, like La Tropa, word gets out to girls, and they will come. AB is always had too many people.
Buy CJ a drink for me.
Umm, maybe CJ's simply ex-LE, period. Who likes to get laid. I realize that doesn't exactly have the brilliant romantic conspiracy theory attached to it, as does the drug dealer fantasy, but c'mon!
GettingTang, would you be so kind as to name the software you've used? I say this because the last reading I did between of discussions between linguists on the subject of software author analysis by comparison of writing samples (which is admittedly several years old) said nothing reliable existed, though people were working on them. Since you're making a fairly serious accusation, the least you could do is allow people to judge for themselves whether or not your claims of conclusiveness are reasonable by letting us consider the software program involved.
VT, I have no disagreement with you that people in authority, including police, at times abuse that authority. I believe such folks deserve to be held fully accountable for their missteps, as that is a violation of the public trust. There's an unfortunately high number of control freaks in law enforcement, (something I wish psych testing was better at screening out) the para-military nature of the culture does lead to the same positives and negatives of being part of a "troop" and I'm certainly not defending LE who are personally vindictive or abusive. But just because some people disagree with that law, enforcing it is not being vindictive or morally disingenuous.
I'm a big fan of Hannah Arendt, but she was a political theorist and moralist and not a psychologist, and she generally disdained empiricism. I don't recall her ever doing experiments -- you (and McCarthy) might be referring to Stanley Milgram's famous experiments about getting people to administer high levels of electric shocks to people when told to by authority. (It's important to note, in those experiments, that this basically happened only when the authority was present and instructing, not when the individual was making the choices.) Again, I don't disagree that most people tend toward conformity and concern about fitting into the norm, but I feel that's an unapt comparison here. Every person who does their job without questioning every single piece of it is not necessarily contributing to the next Nazi regime.
Police officers specifically take an oath to uphold the laws of the community they're serving, and thus serve as agents of those laws, sublimating themselves and their beliefs in the same way we expect, say, a judge to use the laws of the community and not those of his personal religion in making decisions. Attacking those laws, if they're wrong, is the right approach, not attacking the agents of enforcement. (The former might make you feel better, but it's completely futile.) Personally, I consider rape and domestic violence to be social atrocities -- prostitution being illegal is stupid, unnecessary, a waste or resources, an unwelcome intrusion into the rights of consenting adults, etc., but it's not the Holocaust, and I find attempts to paint it that way offensive.
Hello again Joe:
Confirming that CJ is ExLe who likes to get laid. He really really likes to get laid. He really really really likes to get laid. He also has no time to worry about Poki or GT or anyone else. I've read some very amusing posts in the last few months. I really was surprised at them but no more. I have a lot of useful advice for my brother mongerers, but only eyeball to eyeball, I would NEVER post it here.
I've PM'd one of the seemingly sane critical posters with my contact number at the office so he can call and we can chat. This was early this morning - still no response by 4:30 PM. Maybe this was a stupid move, we'll have to see.
So far the only liar I've uncovered is GT who still has not delivered the goodies. After all his bullshit, you think he'd have the balls to say he was just kidding. Why am I not surprised? GT will not name the software package he is "using" because he is not "using" a software package. This will go nowhere. He knows it, I know it. What's really interesting is watching him backtrack from the issue.
Poki has read too many comic books. He is actually a GT fan, jeez - what must that be like? If Poki had balls, he'd meet me and buy me a beer himself but you know what - Poki, I'll buy your beer for the evening! You don't have to bring your car, just your own big beautiful self. How's that for an invite?
There are excellent reasons why certian MPs are busted and others are not, why johns are sometimes not busted, etc. etc.
There are things you can say and do to get out of the soup.
Anyway, just thought I'd chime in here.
Don't give yourself too much credit Poki, not yet anyway.
CJW - Thanks for the vote of confidence. Honolulu is pretty hot down by the Int'l Marketplace - cops everywhere. Here in Kalifornia, LE has a 24hour Duty To Act, meaning they are never really "off duty," just beween shifts. I'm not sure if it is the same in Hawaii or not. Should be there in February, I'll check.
Be Safe and BE NICE
Country John
PS Joe Zop - we have an ongoing thread that I'll pick up soon, I don't want to let it fall between the cracks mate - been very busy.
Hello All,
If LE meets up with you here in the US, then he witnesses you pick up an SG etc in TJ to do the deed, are you in trouble with the law when you get back in the US?
My apologies if this has been answered before. I just can't find the post! Happy holidays!
Crazy Jim: There are a number of reasons you've not seen massage parlor busts on COPS. You're really unlikely to, honestly, in the same way that you don't tend to see, say, white-collar crime busts on that show.
In order to nail a customer in a massage parlor so that it sticks, there basically need to be a couple of aspects -- either they have to fairly literally catch you in the act (hint -- stop fucking if you hear a commotion and put your towel on!) or there needs to be a sting so that you're snagged on camera or for solicitation. Bottom line -- it's [i]always[/i] tough to nail people who are doing things behind closed doors unless you have help.
Most of the massage parlor busts that have taken place over the last several years have been federal -- the feds have been going after massage parlors state by state as part of racketeering investigations, and the essence of those has been to wipe out or cripple such parlors in many areas. Local police can set up a sting, they can just come in and roust people, but they're gonna have a hard time making anything stick other than your personal humiliation unless they can prove that you gave money to the lovely little thing who's speaking directly to your private parts. The feds follow the money, the legal status of the workers, etc.
The bottom line is that going to massage parlors is very much safer than picking up ladies on the streets. It's safer than hooking up with an unverified independent provider who has a website, as cops can easily set something like that up. It's probably also safer than hooking up with escort services unless you positively know that the service is legit and continues to be, as that's not terribly difficult to set up as a sting operation and it's also something that, once busted, can be turned. That said, doing anything other than simply kicking in the door and messing with people takes a concerted effort by LE that involves, money, planning, and a fair amount of time, and those are things that are generally not invested unless someone's got something political to gain.
My personal philosophy is that if you happen to end up in one of the latter scenarios, you're simply screwed -- it's damned tough to properly sniff them out if the authorities invest the resources to set one up. Luckily, they're generally not set up simply to whack at mongers -- they're usually after the proprietors of such establishments, and the money.
Oh, btw, Jim -- there are few better people to drink with than cops! They're not shy about putting it away, have great stories, and remember you forever in a positive way if you buy LOL!
I'm not sure if this is more appropriate in LE or Morality, but it makes me think about how much some people want to control others and, how far they will go to that end.
Dec 29, 10:17 am ET
RIYADH (Reuters) - Morality police in southern Saudi Arabia plan to conduct raids to ensure that shops do not sell flowers, candles and gifts to those planning to celebrate New Year, a local newspaper reported on Monday.
The Arabic-language al-Watan said the Authority for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice (APVPV) in Aseer province was determined to uphold a ban by the conservative Muslim kingdom on non-Muslim celebrations.
"Patrols will be dispatched to gift and flower shops in the next two days before the New Year to ensure that ornaments are not sold for New Year celebrations," al-Watan quoted the local APVPV head as saying.
The authority -- a pillar of the ultra-conservative kingdom since its founding -- had also banned Christmas ornaments from shops. It also bans shops from carrying Valentine's Day gifts.
"For Muslims, there are only two holidays in a year: Eid al-Fitr and Eid al-Adha," the official said, referring to the Muslim feasts that follow the annual fasting month of Ramadan and the haj pilgrimage to Mecca.
Located near the border with Yemen, Aseer is a traditional route for militants and arms smuggling into the kingdom.
Answerable only to King Fahd and separate from ordinary police, members of the authority patrol the streets with police escort, ensuring that their strict interpretation of Islamic customs are upheld.
sorry I'm a little late here, but I just found this new little corner of our mongering world.
Getting Tang: You were right on with your post on 12/23 (again, sorry for jumping in late). For the "john", prostitution is, in so many cases, a release and/or an escape from some underlying issue. It is indeed a form of therapy for most of us. As a young man lacking many of the social graces, mongering helped me build up confidence and release some of my pent-up feelings and emotions. Now, in my 30's, its a way to relieve stress and have fun in between relationships. For LE to bust a "John" is almost like arresting a starving man for stealing a loaf of bread. Sure, technically, stealing is against the law, but arresting a starving man for stealing that bread is just cold. The only one who really has a legitimate argument against the theft is the store owner who had his bread stolen. In this case, the store owner can be compared to the residents in the community where prostitution is taking place.
Ok, ok, enough with the talk about stolen bread. Prostitution can have a negative impact on neighborhoods and, therefore, should be controlled to a certain degree. I know that I wouldn't like to have hookers standing on the corners while my kids played football in the back yard. Prostitution, like any other illegal activity attracts other illegal activities. So, the solution is so easy...make prostitution legal. Regulate it and make red-light zones for the girls and their clients to conduct business safely. (like here, where I live in Mexico) Personally, I always steered clear of the SW scene when I lived in the USA. I didn't want to take a part in ruining another family's neighborhood. Having a red-light district would be the sane option to make, but it will never happen ( at least not in our lifetime).
There are too many self-righteous morons who want to make points for being anti-"perversion" (while they often do the same things in private). They try to convince everyone that the "Johns" are in some way perverted or that they are inferior losers because they "have to pay for sex." This is so obviously not the case in most cases. However, us mongers help them by remaining silent and refusing to take our arguments to the public (myself included). We remain anonymous and therefore are easy targets for the judgemental bastards. It is completely ridiculous for prostitution to be illegal. How insane is it that we can hire a woman to cook us dinner in the privacy of our own homes yet we can't hire a woman for sex. In both cases we are paying for service rendered. If we took a woman on a shoping spree and then out to a fancy restaurant before taking her home and having sex, that is fine. Yet, if we give her the cash instead of the goods, the sex is illegal. Goddamn ridiculous. The writer Charles Bukowski had a theory that prostitution is illegal and so unpopular among feminists because it establishes a set price for pussy that makes it harder for the "regular" women to overcharge in terms of what they want in order to finally decide to sleep with a man. In other words, prostitution is a sort of "blue book" for the value of pussy and it helps prevent us men from being taken advantage of by women. But that's a topic for another day and maybe another section.
In closing, I'd just like to say that LE is not our enemy. 99% of them are good guys who are doing their job. They are there to keep the streets safe and crime-free. I'm sure they would rather be doing something other than busting a guy looking for a BJ too, but, much like soldiers, they are there to follow others regardless of what they think of them at the time. The real enemies are the cowards who make the laws and insist on legislating against something that, if done correctly, is relatively harmless in the grand scheme of things.
Also, us "clients" need to have respect for the neighborhoods where we do our "dating" (if one is into the SW scene). Because, until we get this legalized, we are technically criminals and are subject to arrest. We need to be discreet so that the residents aren't disturbed and careful so that LE doesn't have to arrest us.
So, those were my 3 cents worth. Having said all that, though, I'm so happy to be living in Mexico where prostitution is not such a big issue and a guy can go get laid without having to worry about having his life ruined.
Be safe and have fun,
From: The Happiest Man Alive
Lets get a few facts straight here. First off CJ, we can agree to duke it out here in this forum? Okay with you?
My only intentions with the original post under the TJ forum, was to warn other mongers of your possible intentions. Okay, got it? Nothing personal. Remember, we are all nameless, faceless text! I based this on some very in-depth analysis of your posts. I have followed them since day one. I have an IQ of 144 (that's the truth) I recall and remember most everything I read. Some of your posts, DO NOT ADD UP!
You have now done something you accuse everyone else of doing, you're taking my posts and issues regarding LE and prostitution and twisting it around to fit into your nice neat little box. I.E., I have said numerous times, I have no major issues with LE. I'm a law abiding citizen who in fact supports LE. My only, single issue with LE and or the law in general is simply that prostitution should not be illegal. It is not a crime in my opinion! That's it! Nothing else! Now even with the issue regarding prostitution, I have said numerous times, it should not be full on legal. I have said each city should have a regulated area to allow the trade to go on legally. Are we clear on this issue? I am NOT in support of pimps, drug pushers, stung out crack hoes, etc, etc. I'm all for LE rounding up all of these types! I have even been known to call the police on these characters myself!
Now lets asses your statement regarding who it would be a big kick for LE and yourself to bust me. First of all, if you have read any number of my reports, you will soon see, they are fictitious, as stated right in many of my posts. I like to read my own make- believe stories and this forum is a way for me to vent! I do not engage in or solicit sex in any shape or manor! Got it?
You on the other hand brag about how it would be hilarious to see someone like me get busted. I had to laugh my ass off at this one. YOU'RE THE ONE WHO CLAIMS TO BE THE EX COP. Who do you really think we be the bearer of more shame, me or you? Just really goes to show you the mindset of this guy, (you), now doesn't it?
You contradict yourself so much it's incredible! On one hand you claim to be one of the "fellow mongers", on the other, you tell mongers, they are bad, should be ashamed and get what they deserve if busted?!?! You make no sense. You try to intice people by addressing them as a brotherhood or something. Mongering does not work like an AA group. Sorry, but it does not!
You push and push to meet up with mongers. Again, 99.9% of mongers by nature are suspicious people. THE LESS AMOUNT OF PEOPLE WHO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING, THE BETTER!
As for your persistent request for my proof regarding multiple posts in this forum. Well, lets just say I have fully satisfied my own suspicion of you. Nothing else matters.
Last, I really don't care what you're really up to. As I always say, to each his own. Consider me the forum referee, I'm neutral. I JUST CALL THEM LIKE I SEE THEM!
GETTINGTANG~!
Another rediculous post from GT.
Congratulations on your IQ. My question to you is that if you really have that sort of capacity, why the hell do you not use it?
I don't take it personally and I'd certainly buy you a beer at AB regardless of our exchanges on this board.
You're the one posting fantasies. Your post was so "bi-polar" I almost threw my back out reading it.
You stated that I was posting under multiple ID's for the purpose of the entrapment of other members. This is a lie, and you should straighten it out. You should admit that your software detection thing was bullshit and restore some credibility in the forum.
If you think for just one minute that I am going to let you blow this off you are sadly mistaken. People have a right to know who is for real and who lies.
To say it only matters to you is another attempt to avoid being responsible for the lies. If this is the case you should never have lied in the first place.
I enjoy having people around and the fellowship that this forum has to offer. A lot of good people belong to this forum and it is a pleasure to meet them.
This forum is not who we are, it's what we do. I am about including people, not excluding people, entraping people, busting people etc etc. I'm not here lying to people - you are.
IN any event, anyone who reads your posts should understand that you lie and then expect others to just accept your data whether it is a fantasy or not. Maybe, in your case, you simply alter reality and then tell the truth about it. I wonder just how much of what you posted in the past is true - an interesting exercise would be to check it out. Sounds like a project for '04.
How can you "Warn" anyone of "possible" intentions based on lies man. If you truly believed in the forum you would not engage in this sort of behavior.
I'm not interested in "duking it out" because unless I'm dealing with someone with integrity I'm wasting my time.
I have no issues with anyone "calling them as they see them" as you claim to do, but when your observations are based on lies then it doesn't matter how you "call them" because you clearly can't "see" anything other than the fantasies you create with that IQ of yours.
I'm OK with wandering the alley alone. I'm OK with going to AB alone, I've done it. Doesn't really matter if members do not want to hook up but it's nice to know that when you're in TJ you're not alone when you have like minded members meet up. Why not enjoy the fellowship that the forum offers?
Instead, your choice is to post informatin that amounts to nothing less than a bare faced lie and then just blow it off like it doesn't really matter any way. Your comments are toxic and the intention behind them is to spit in someone elses soup. I have difficulty reconciling that with someone who claims to have a 144 IQ.
"Getting a few facts straight" is something you should work at carefully. You clearly do not have a track record of "getting facts straight."
Be Safe and BE NICE
Country John
Once again,
As I fully expected he addressed only two issues out of a dozen. He ridiculed my IQ and still insists I'm a liar regarding my knowledge of his multiple aliases. Read my last post people, then read his. He AGAIN fails to address anything in it?!?! He is doing the classic avoidance and denial routine!
If anyone on this board REALLY wants to understand CJ, it's rather simple................brew a big cup of coffee and spend a few hours reading this guys posts. You will soon see a pattern. Nuff said!
GETTINGTANG~!
Well, GT, you're the one who's asserting that you absolutely know that he's posting under multiple identities, asserted you [i]used software to conclusively prove this[/i], but you now say that you've satisfied yourself and nothing else matters. So, in other words, it's perfectly ok for you to slander CJ and offer no proof, because, well, you're smart and you say so. But him taking a whack at you as a liar is somehow unfair.
My IQ's in the same ballpark as yours, and I can sure as hell see logical fallacies when they bite me. You're neutral? A referee? That's hilarious! C'mon, guys, let this rest -- it's just a typical online personality disagreement. No one can "prove" anything in a place where, as you say, it's all just made up stories being posted.
Howdy Fellas, I thought it might be time to jump in and use this area of the board that Jackson gave us.
Tang, I agree with most of the stuff you post about Country John, but it would really help your credibilitiy if you would let them know the name of the software program. Unless of course it is some top secret government program that is illegal for you to possess. If it's something you can buy at the local computer store, then just let us know.
As far as Country John goes, yes he is a walking, talking, condradiction. He vigorously defends law enforcement officers and in practically the same breath admits that he is a petty criminal. Yes, you are a petty criminal if you break prostitution laws, even if you don't agree with them. He supports law enforcement, yet gives advice on how to outsmart law enforcement. It would be like supporting the war in Iraq and supporting the troops, and then posting in an Iraqi board on the soldiers tactics and how to circumvent their plans. Sorry John, but I don't think LE would consider an ex-cop who thinks nothing about breaking the law and gives advice over the internet on how to thwart their efforts to control prostitution a friend of theirs. Someone who posts and lets others know where to procure prostitutes, etc. You said once before that you didn't understand my logic here. What don't you understand?
Also, I think CJ must have retired quite a while ago. For ex-LE to give out such bogus advice like a cop has to tell you he's a cop if asked is complete BS. Maybe that was the case twenty years ago. Kind of like going to a doctor who retired twenty years ago for heart surgury. A lot changes in a short time. I don't think CJ is malicious in his reporting, I just don't think he takes the time to check all his facts. I think he bases a lot of his beliefs on common sense. For example I posted an exerpt of the Seattle loitering law which stated in part that driving up and asking if one was a cop in a prostitution area was part of the basis for determining whether one was guilty of prostitution loitering. Common sense would dictate that of course that wouldn't be against the law as CJ pointed out. But the law clearly states otherwise. I think sometimes laws are passed which are unconstitutional, with the authorities knowing full well that they will work to control things like prostitution, and that most people will not have the resources (money) to challenge the law.
I also think that CJ is not out to arrest, blackmail, plant drugs, etc... I think this is simply paranoia. I think CJ just prefers the company of others and thinks its fun to meet for a few beers, go their seperate ways, and then meet to tell stories over a couple of more beers. Although I usually monger in solitude, this does sound like it could be fun. I may make it down to San Diego later this coming year and would love to buy CJ a beer and have someone to show me the Tijuana ropes. Let me know if you would be amiciable to this CJ.
As far as the police go I still believe them to be about the unfriendliest, arrogant, self-centered people I know. Is this the case with all of them? Of course not. I have a few childhood friends who became cops and they are great people. It just seems to me that most (not all) became cops because they are power and control freaks. The kid that got picked on in the school yard is now a cop and using his power as a cop to conquer his feelings of powerlessness he felt as a child. Several cops I know tell me this is partially why the divorce rate is so high among cops. They have all this power and control on the job; people are afraid of them; and then they go home and try to exert that same control on their kids and spouses with no luck. Most simply love the high they get from bullying people.
I was down at a bike path last summer. A couple of middle-aged ladies were roller skating and some bike cops were coming towards them. The ladies moved to one side and this one cop deliberately forced her off the path. She fell and skinned her knee. The bike cops didn't stop or appoligize. I saw them laughing as they rode off together. This epitomizes my feelings towards the police. I have seen many such examples over the years. Anyone who is not LE is the enemy. I treat LE with the utmost respect. I think it's why most of the times I've been pulled over I haven't gotten a ticket. I am honest, polite, and don't try to BS them (unless of course I'm doing something I could get arrested for). But I just haven't seen them return the favor. Technically they work for us--the tax paying citizen. But try convincing them of that.
Like I've said before, the individual cops are just following orders of their superiors, namely the Mayor and the Chief. But do they have to relish busting some poor john so much? Laughing and high-fiving because they get to take his car and ruin his life for receiving a blow job. I don't think they look at prostitution the same way we do. They see us supporting some young hooker's drug habit, the blight on neighborhoods, kids picking up discarded condoms in their front yards, needles, pimps, disease, etc. I don't think I've ever witnessed "victimless" street prostitution. But I think the cops would be better served to show some understanding, compassion, etc., which is hard because they may be on the street, but they're really back in that schooyard being picked on and now it's time for them to fight back.
Civ2K
Civ 2000,
Your reports are great, you show you understand this posting "windbag" I say that in a good way. He just might be nothing but a "uncle Charlie" likes to sit around drinking beer tell tall tales, even if you know they are not true; they are fun to hear anyway.
I disagree with you on two points and one of those points could get you trouble if your not careful.
One, this guy is not someone you want to show you the "ropes" in TJ.
I know one thing for sure. This guy is not the experience Monger he professes to be. He usually goes with street girls, where you only get basic service, just like a car date in the U.S. He can't or won't approach a girl himself. He uses hustler pimp like guys, these guys are bad news. What usually happens is you lose your money to these guys, sometimes they plant drugs on you and work with corrupt cops to shake you down for money.
This guy need to learn to appoach a girl on her own.
Two, regarding Getting Tangs,( this guy knows what he is talking about. I would like to meet him one day.) He doesn't owe anybody anything. He didn't libel anyone real, this is a made up name, not a real person. He can always get a new name from this board and start using it.( oh yah, he already does)
Oh, by the way there is software that can check writing styles. For example Spitbol-386 kinda a computer language can do this job. Hell, why use those methods, my methods I outlines in earlier post did a great job.
Pokey, Hey no disrespect intended for Tang. It just might quiet his detractors a bit if he would mention the name of the software. I enjoy his excellent reports. Besides there are some guys on the Patterson, New Jersey board who might like the software to check out DeeUncola. I wonder if Dee and CJ might be related?
Second, Not to defend CJ here, but I think in all his posts he's mentioned using a hustler only once. I would ride into TJ with him, have a beer or two in Adelita's or whatever it's called, and then have some fun. For someone who has never been in Mexico, I've heard there's some places to avoid, some places to see, and having a buddy along to BS with and exchange stories with over a beer certainly doesn't sound dangerous to me.
Well said, Civ2000.
Pokey -- Spitbol-386/Snobol? Are you kidding? That's like saying you can uncover accounting errors with Cobol. A compiler that does wonderful character string manipulation is not linguistic analysis. (I presume you're joking about your "analysis," as that was clearly just an ad hominem attack: "Having two names?!?"LOL!) And if GT didn't besmirch anyone real, why's he worrying about being called a liar by some imaginary character? Uh-oh -- you want to meet him. Sounds like you must be deep cover LE to me...
Joe,
I can tell by your writing you have a high I.Q. I wish I could write so elegantly. I don't know you, but I would venture to guess you quit the force Cop/Jail because of your intelligence. You didn't believe that crap and brain wash techniques they use on young recuits.
Why do you stick up for C.J. Do you not see anything wrong with an ex L.E. breaking the law doing S.W.'s. and bragging about it on a website site, that L.E. watches.
Tell me something, did your father when he was a cop, go out and do S.G's, if you don't know ask your Mom, a wife always knows.( how I don't know how) Then go out and brag about it!!
It just doesn't happen.
I too had a family member as a LAPD, a little step brother. I watched in horror how he changed. He worked for a short time in the skid roll area of L.A. a hot area for SW's years back. I use to work near that area at the time. He would have busted if I was doing anything, no questions asked. Thank god he quit the force.
But, once a cop always a cop, if he see's somthing going down, he jumps in to help, he would never do anything to embarrass the force.
You commented on comformity a few post back. I wonder are you aware of the classic social study by Lambardo Sanford Univ 1971.
They got two groups of students, and made one group prison guards and the other group inmates. They had to abort the study because the groups really took on the rolls and turned satanically.
I think that happens all too often to cops, thats why the FBI takes trainees out of their element and family, and always puts them in a new city, for the metamorphosis to take effect.
I know cops are just following orders, but they learn to enjoy busting "johns" and destoying their lives. I just can't embrace vice cops.
Its getting worst now, for the monger. You can now get busted and get your car taken away from you, just by cruising by an area too much. The L. E. just tramples all over your rights.
Hey, I can't even get a good safe lap dance anymore if Ashcroft has his way. Instead of using the Patriot act to get terrorists, the Ashcroft is using it go after Cheatahs strip joint in Las Vegas and San Diego. Goverment may now go after us for web surfing by merely telling a judge anywhere that the spying is relevant to an investigation. ( maybe thats why C.J. is collecting his database, maybe he is FBI, DEA, CIA, or full of BS) I just don't know.
I think the police should stop putting the scare into mongers, because they like pussy.
I guess it fun to bust an attracted sexy often naked women with dangerous breasts, that can provide preasure, then to go after big bad criminals that hurt people and have guns.
Civ:
Interestng post.
You don't have to have a hateful attitude towards LE to be a criminal on any level (although I've heard it helps in some cases). Because I engage in the same activity you do I'm a walking contradiction because I'm not like YOU? 'Cmon, you're smarter than that.
My le days date back to 1985 so a lot may have changed and apparently it has but some thngs have NOT. I certainly could use a refresher on current law but I'm really not THAT interested. While I still have friends in low places, drinking buddies really, I'm too old for the LE game. Better left to the young'ns.
The benefit of my experience might not be such a benefit at all but I've managed to use my wits and hard won experience to avoid and get out of certain situations that I'm sure I could not have otherwise.
My advice to others was intended to help minimize the risk of getting busted, not to outsmart LE as you stated because you and I know they read the board and they know the score. I'm not sharing intel on criminal activity, we're not robbing banks, killing people, stealing cars or engaging in destructive behavior exept perhaps to ourselves; we're mongering guys here and me being one wanted to help out where I could. How this becomes
"... gives advice on how to outsmart law enforcement. It would be like supporting the war in Iraq and supporting the troops, and then posting in an Iraqi board on the soldiers tactics and how to circumvent their plans. Sorry John, but I don't think LE would consider an ex-cop who thinks nothing about breaking the law and gives advice over the internet on how to thwart their efforts to control prostitution a friend of theirs.
is beyond me. Isn't it obvious that I have disagreements with the fact that prostitution is illegal. I think it's a lame law and is a terrible waste of resources etc etc. I honestly don't think is rises to the level you describe though Civ.
I can just as easily refrain from giving advice and, from this moment on I shall. Clearly it was a mistake to admit to being ex-LE.
The fact is that I am not le at this time (I do drive a Crown Vic P71 though, had it since new-wouldn't own any other type). I've owned my business since 1995 and been in the private sector since, as I stated earlier 1985. Much safer out here most of the time.
I guess if we look close enough we'll find what looks like contradictions in everyone's posts. I'd be happy to address each perceived contradiction as It was certainly not my intent to post conflicting or mis-leading data and I would actually appreciate hearing about it and having the opportunity to respond either by PM or in this forum. Perfection has not been one of my claims (although I've been told that I am very very close and my mom would vigorously assert that point on my behalf).
The one thing in this forum I am NOT however is a LIAR.
GT should not only post the name of the S/ware program but also the actual "Identities" I am "using" to post on this board.
I also think others should demand the same lest they become a target of his IQ. We can easily verify his claim but he won't post the ID's because he lied and he knows it.
If you're smart enought to find what you say are contradictions in my posts, then your must surely see this as well.
I've also known my share of cops who should never have made it. Some are in jail as I write this post. Just like every other profession. I have definite opinions about it, better left unshared at this time. Wherever I saw that kind of behaviour I was saddened because I had different ideas about why people become policemen. Call me an idealist if you like, and perhaps I am but again I have a bit more experience at this stuff that you.
I know many good men and women who did a lot of honest and good work in the field. So I am unshakable in my opinions in that regard previous comments not withstanding.
I am not stupid about it however and I understand that everyday some cops do nasty things. It's a real shame but wholesale condemnation of a group because of the actions of a few is juvenile but that seems almost silly to suggest in this forum so it tells me that maybe I belong to the wrong group and should just do the big "log off" forget about it- find another forum or just lurk from here on out.
Well, you can forget about that. Country John is here to stay.
Say what you want in this very liberal forum. I've read some very interesting posts, some of the best reading I've seen in a while in any open forum.
The lying about me having multiple IDs however is a different story. There is no sense of fair play that involves lying and GT is a liar.
We can hurl insults all day long. We can challenge contradictions which is really a good thing. Outright lying is another thing. I don't know about you guys but it should not be considered acceptable behaviour in this arena. Why do you accept it so easily here- am I missing something?
The only pattern GT sees is the one through those "fantasy" glasses of his, probably the same ones that tell him he has 144 IQ.
And one more thing, if you have a specific issue or item you would like to call me on, then be specific. I'll gladly answer and I won't lie.
I'd like to hook up and share a beer - I'll buy. The one thing you won't need to concern yourself with is dealing with a liar (except for the ones with the big tits - jeez Civ, you're on your own there mate).
And one more thing, I'm not letting it go. As long as I have the strength to turn on the computer, log on and type I'll be calling GT on his lies. He's (or she's) the one who will end it by either putting up or admitting. So far he's done neither so to borrow a phrase from his posts, I'm "calling it like I see it."
And one more thing, have a safe and happy new year.
Be Safe and BE NICE
Yours FORFUCKINGEVER
Country John
PS: I'll be in TJ next Thursday morning (early) and will hit the alley around 1 in the afternoon until about 5PM. PM me if you can make it.
Country John Quote from 12/30: "is beyond me. Isn't it obvious that I have disagreements with the fact that prostitution is illegal. I think it's a lame law and is a terrible waste of resources etc etc. I honestly don't think is rises to the level you describe though Civ."
Country John quote from this thread on 12/22:
"You have no idea what you are talking about yet you go on and on like some huge injustice has been done to you. Somebody made you behave because you couldn't behave yourself and now you're gonna flame the cops on a public forum -wow.
The LE who read these posts know exactly how to treat you when they CATCH you man. After reading the shit you post, if I were you I would not wonder anymore about why LE carries on the way they do when they catch you. You deserve EVERY bit and maybe more. Their view of mongerers is influenced, among other things by what you write here and if you don't give a shit about it then why the hell are you posting it?
Yeah I'm EX LE and I am damn proud of it. The best you can do is post some half wit panty waist dilettante milk toast fucking brain fart about how terrible everything is and how miserable the cops are. Well FUCK YOU. Maybe we should turn everything over to you right? Let you run it right? Sure. You wouldn't make it.
Next time you see vice grinding some poor mongerers face into a video camera on COPS or Channel 7, give yourself a big pat on the back son because YOU probably had something to do with it asshole. You just don't get the message. " END CJ QUOTE
And this guy claims he never contradicts himself?
Look, I'll say it one last time. As far as I'm concerned, he got caught with his hand in the cookie jar. I do not know with any absolute certainty what he's up to. It is just my opinion, it's not as he presents himself. The rest is up to your imagination. If you feel safe meeting with this guy after reading the above, then do so! If not, then don't!
GETTINGTANG~!
Yeah Country John you would never give advice on how to outsmart the cops at their own game or try to thrwart the efforts of a sting operation or would you? The following is a quote of one of your Anaheim posts. Enjoy guys: its some of the best fiction I've ever read. Civ2K
Are you with me so far? Good.
Now, you are faced with one of these here what you call one of them there dilemas. How do you know if you are going to be busted?
Have a tape recorder (really cheap) rolling in the car for your protection. "Hi Baby, I am not a law enforcement officer . .are you a law enforcement officer or are you employed by any law enforcement agency?" "Are you on duty at this time? " "Do you have police identification?" "Are you here for the possible purpose of arresting me for solicitation?" "Are you now working as part of an undercover sting operation?" "Are you about to offer sex for money?" Go ahead, don't be scared. . .ask the fucking questions.
She might say (laughingly) "Do I look like a law enforcement officer?" You say : "THAT IS NOT AN ANSWER are you a law enforcement officer or are you employed by any law enforcement agency?" "Are you on duty at this time? " "Do you have police identification?" "Are you here for the possible purpose of arresting me for solicitation?" "Are you now working as part of an undercover sting operation?" "Are you about to offer sex for money?"
If she states that the is in fact NOT a LEO, and specifically says no (on tape) to the questions then mate - it's ON. Refer to your "payment" as a "donation to help her out." You are NOT "paying her to have sex." If she bullshits you and then busts you, then you've got it on tape and your attorney will take it from there, and he should have a shit load of fun with it.
Tell her you want to drive for a bit but you will take her back to where you picked her up. If she doesn't want to play, get her OUT of the car.
DO NOT EVER EVER EVER discuss money or sex until you drive at LEAST 1/2 mile away from where you picked her up and YOU DON'T EVER EVER start the dialog. Make the SW read the menu, tell her to grab your nuts etc etc all BEFORE discussing donations for the betterment of her education.
CJ, Don't get me wrong. You seem like a nice guy. I just see some newby reading your advice and seeing that it is written by an ex-LE and thinking that such tactics will work for him. I have no problem with anyone giving advice but realize the consequences of bad advice are enormous. If I knew my advice could cost a monger his job, wife, car ,etc, I would be very careful to dispense only that which I knew to be true. But then again according to you the monger gets only what he deserves--even if its because he trusted you.
Civ2K
Pokey -- personally (and maybe this is just the ex-catholic in me) I don't see any big deal, as you and others do, about someone who's an ex-cop deciding he's going to hire hookers. Yes, it's against the law. So what? Don't the rest of us make the same decision? If I'm an ex-McDonald's worker do I need to continue to profess my belief that the Big Mac is the pinnacle of modern civilization? ex-LE means ex -- you're no longer bound by your promise to uphold the laws. (And to be honest, there's always a double-standard anyway -- I used to be able to tell when one of my partners was high by whether or not he would catch his car keys when he tossed them in the air. Could I prove it? Nope. Would I if I could? Not unless he was putting me or someone else at risk.)
I know cops who are utter assholes. I know cops who are the nicest people in the world. I don't feel compelled to hear someone is a cop and decide which of those categories they fall into until I actually know them. I agree absolutely that the paramilitary structure encourages an "us vs. them" mentality, but so does dealing all day with people who are mostly not terribly nice folks (and I'm referring here to criminals!) My father, a cop, used to say that he needed interaction with his family and neighbors to remind him that most people were good and nice to be around, because that wasn't his work experience. He struggled with it at times, though he was pretty good about keeping things straight and wasn't one of the authority-freak kinds, but I think that's a trap many fall into. No, he didn't go do street girls -- but isn't the question you're asking really whether or not that's ok for anyone who's married to do? That's a different issue entirely than whether the guy happens to be a cop.
Me? I was just a young pup who had a job for a short time, basically thirty years ago. Never intended to be there for long, spent half my free time reading then about philosophy, chess, and existentialism, learned a ton, and saw things that gave me nightmares for years and years and years. My time on the force was one of the better learning experiences of my life, not only because of things I saw but because of things I learned about myself. I learned, for example, that I've got the same gene flaw that you say your step-brother has -- I tend to get involved when something's going down, smartly or not.
As far as defending CJ, well, mostly I'm not a fan of online gang fights. To me the guy's been pretty straightforward about where he's coming from -- you can like it or not, but that doesn't mean it all has to devolve into conspiracy theory, personal attacks, or that we need to somehow hold this guy up to a higher standard than anyone else. I mean -- why is he a SOB for for being involved in PFP and nobody else here is? And though I think GT is an intelligent guy who has a lot of good things to say, I also think, based on reading lots of his posts in the Thailand section and elsewhere, that he's someone who loves to get into personal arguements on this site, who revels in defending himself against "unjust" attacks. That's fine, we all need to express out machismo, and I hope he gets what he wants out of it, but I don't always feel it's fair to the other posters involved in the equation.
In terms of your point about mongers and cops enjoying busting them, well, I don't think that runs terribly counter to one of CJ's points -- cops, who basically see themselves as doing their jobs and thereby not deserving of personal attack, do tend to react badly to being berated or bitched at by people who have broken the law but don't feel they should be arrested. Who, in any job, wants to be called names? How does that not get personal? CJ's advice, which I agree with, is to be polite and respectful and that will minimize your trouble and maximize your changes of getting off. Argue and you're simply toast -- you're disagreeing with the cop's judgement and authority and you're simply going to go down.
I agree that we're in a more and more repressive society -- but I think we're better off looking at Ashcroft, at the local ordinances that impound cars (a fairly recent tactic) and put the faces of mongers into public scrutiny, etc., than we are saying it's this or that cop's fault. Individual cops don't set policy on whether or not your car's going to be seized. Amen, absolutely, on your comments on the so-called Patriot act and it's real attack on individual freedom, but that's the right battle ground, not some grunt cop who gets called on to enforce it.
GT, I don't see the contradiction, sorry. In the first instance, CJ stated his personal views on the law. In the second, he described what can happen if you're caught by LE. How is that a contradiction? I happen to agree with him -- the laws are bullshit, but if you're gonna taunt the cops, you're gonna end up paying the price. That's not a contradiction; that's sage advice.
Civ2000, again, I agree with you. Tape recorders are all about how you prove your case once you've been busted. That means you've already lost. Bottom line -- the best way to protect yourself from being busted is to have your paranoia radar on high, and to run for cover if you're at all nervous. I've never had an instance in picking up a SW where I was the first one mentioning sex, price, etc. And I always ask for a show before we get serious.
Joe Zop Quote: "GT, I don't see the contradiction, sorry. In the first instance, CJ stated his personal views on the law. In the second, he described what can happen if you're caught by LE. How is that a contradiction? I happen to agree with him -- the laws are bullshit, but if you're gonna taunt the cops, you're gonna end up paying the price. That's not a contradiction; that's sage advice." END QUOTE
Um with ALL due respect, maybe you need to reread what he wrote. In the second portion of his quotes, he is not indicating "what can happen if caught". no-way! No-how! He is yelling about us dirty rotten mongers getting what we deserve! Any other interpretation of these quotes, would simply be a misinterpretation, or attempt at changing the meaning behind them. I think everyone here can read for themselves and judge this one quite easily. Remember, you ought to know, when someone gets heated, as he obviously was, often the real turth is exposed. I think this was a classic case of such an event. He was very pissed when he wrote that!
Bottom line, the guy has an agenda, true, I'm not sure what it is, but it's not much about true mongering in the sense we all know it as.
JZ and others, I don't have a problem at all with LE or ex-LE or even a judge picking up SW's. I'd be a hypocrite to say otherwise. This isn't the basis for my complaint against CJ at all. My point is that he is not the friend of LE he says he is. I doubt the San Diego Police Department would hire him as their public relations guy. It's okay to feel anyway you want to about the police. The majority of Americans respect the police. It's just that if you're going on-line being a cheerleader if you will; acting like you're being paid by the police to defend them; and then breaking laws and encouraging prostitution your actions certainly aren't matching your words. If CJ were to ask the cops how he could show them respect I'll bet they would tell him to start by obeying the law.
I think you hit the nail on the head. I believe CJ reveles in disharmony and disagreement. He's had similiar arguments on numerous threads of this board. Knowing that a majority of mongers dislike the police he makes it a point to state his opinion; usually devoid of any useful mongering infomation. I've never heard him admit he was wrong, even when all evidence points against him. He will submit rebuttal after rebuttal even when he knows he's wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if he made up being ex-LE just to instigate more disharmony. He thrives off this sort of thing.
I would welcome a real cop to this board anytime. A guy who could give us current and useful information that could benefit our picking up SW's and give us legimate and up-to-date infomation about avoiding arrest. I respect a cop who would pick up a SW because he would be risking more than the most of us., i.e the embarrassment of being discovered and the subsequent loss of employment. But unfortunately CJ's advice is to be ignored, which is all our loss because his information (if he is really ex-LE) could really be a bonus to this board.