General Reports

[QUOTE=ScottiePimp;7123139]Unfortunately it won't just be one schmuck. The first time we hear about this will be a major haul. It wouldn't even surprise me if they lay low for a little bit to lull everyone to sleep and think the coast is clear. Whatever and whenever it happens, a lot of people will go down to send a message.[/QUOTE]One of the very weird things is that the first two teams plus Invictus were banging away on stings for the last two weeks under the old law. Now the third HSI team is here. We haven't seen anything since, although the press releases tend to go out a week afterward, so maybe they're in the middle of one this weekend, or maybe they're in the middle of training. I would also imagine they're probably surveilling the massage parlors right away. Those are huge charges now for the madams. One thing's for sure, they didn't come down here for nothing.

[QUOTE=MmceStep;7123296]One of the very weird things is that the first two teams plus Invictus were banging away on stings for the last two weeks under the old law. Now the third HSI team is here. We haven't seen anything since, although the press releases tend to go out a week afterward, so maybe they're in the middle of one this weekend, or maybe they're in the middle of training. I would also imagine they're probably surveilling the massage parlors right away. Those are huge charges now for the madams. One thing's for sure, they didn't come down here for nothing.[/QUOTE]I have been following the posts regarding this new law and I have a few questions specifically around how this law will affect the AMPs. I always strike up a conversation with the provider regarding their nationality and background because I am genuinely interested. Most providers that I have chatted with travel back and forth to Korea on a somewhat regular / yearly basis to visit friends, parents, etc. So then I ask about their immigration status, and most have green cards. So one of my initial questions to this group is. How is this a Human Trafficking issue if they are in the US legally and they are working a job doing what they willing want to do?

My second thought is, if a customer were getting a massage, in a licensed establishment, by a person allowed to be in the US and working voluntarily, unless the police kick down the door at the correct time, how will the police know if there is a crime? And a follow up question is, what would be the motivation of a provider with a green card to tell the police anything after the fact?

So ultimately, what or how would a sting happen at an AMP?

[QUOTE=Fharmonic;7123705]I have been following the posts regarding this new law and I have a few questions specifically around how this law will affect the AMPs. I always strike up a conversation with the provider regarding their nationality and background because I am genuinely interested. Most providers that I have chatted with travel back and forth to Korea on a somewhat regular / yearly basis to visit friends, parents, etc. So then I ask about their immigration status, and most have green cards. So one of my initial questions to this group is. How is this a Human Trafficking issue if they are in the US legally and they are working a job doing what they willing want to do?

My second thought is, if a customer were getting a massage, in a licensed establishment, by a person allowed to be in the US and working voluntarily, unless the police kick down the door at the correct time, how will the police know if there is a crime? And a follow up question is, what would be the motivation of a provider with a green card to tell the police anything after the fact?

So ultimately, what or how would a sting happen at an AMP?[/QUOTE]I can't speak to your specific questions. However, I'll give my opinion. This new law is not actually about stopping human trafficking. I mean, do they want it to stop? Probably. Do they think for a second that this new law is going to minimize it? Not a chance. This is just the moral police trying to stop prostitution. If anyone is degenerate enough to participate in trafficking, they won't even bat an eye at this new law. Just understand this is all for show and the fact of if trafficking is actually happening or not is secondary.

[QUOTE=ScottiePimp;7123747]I can't speak to your specific questions. However, I'll give my opinion. This new law is not actually about stopping human trafficking. I mean, do they want it to stop? Probably. Do they think for a second that this new law is going to minimize it? Not a chance. This is just the moral police trying to stop prostitution. If anyone is degenerate enough to participate in trafficking, they won't even bat an eye at this new law. Just understand this is all for show and the fact of if trafficking is actually happening or not is secondary.[/QUOTE]I agree. Whether trafficking is at all involved or possibly involved is irrelevant. The multi-month prison term for intent to solicit is all that matters.

[QUOTE=Fharmonic;7123705]I have been following the posts regarding this new law and I have a few questions specifically around how this law will affect the AMPs. I always strike up a conversation with the provider regarding their nationality and background because I am genuinely interested. Most providers that I have chatted with travel back and forth to Korea on a somewhat regular / yearly basis to visit friends, parents, etc. So then I ask about their immigration status, and most have green cards. So one of my initial questions to this group is. How is this a Human Trafficking issue if they are in the US legally and they are working a job doing what they willing want to do?

My second thought is, if a customer were getting a massage, in a licensed establishment, by a person allowed to be in the US and working voluntarily, unless the police kick down the door at the correct time, how will the police know if there is a crime? And a follow up question is, what would be the motivation of a provider with a green card to tell the police anything after the fact?

So ultimately, what or how would a sting happen at an AMP?[/QUOTE]I don't have all the correct answers but this is my experience. Back in the day around here a lot of AMPs were around at least 20 compared to today. So here we are today once in a while an owner will have a massage license but it's rare, most none of the workers have massage license. Most all owners provide apartments for the workers and transportation because it can take a long time for the girls to get a drivers license and a car. I can tell you 98% of all the girls are good with the situation compared to what they left in China or Korea and if not they can go home anytime they won't to. If you can get a space leased you don't need a massage license to open a store you are required to have a license to massage. So the Massage Board used this law to shut down the stores. Now they claimed there was human trafficking happening but there was no real proof. Yes some girls slept in the store and had to pay the owner a small rent fee or several girls shared an apartment. The LE viewed this as enslavement but the girls were and are free to leave anytime. Your question about getting busted, let's say a cop is in the parking lot when you leave and pulls up to you with lights flashing asking you questions it's all drama to scare the shit out of you. Reality is you got a massage and that's it keep your cool! Doesn't matter if the place is under investigation or not you were just a customer as if going into McDonald's. If only you and her were in the room no law was broken. Now IF the owner / employees are working with LE or somehow a hidden camera got placed in the room that's a different story. I agree there is some human trafficking in this business where girls get on the hook financially to come here then can't possibly pay it off for a long time but this word is spread pretty quick and is avoidable. It's no different than what the Banks do to legal citizens here with credit cards, Oh you're $10,000 in debt making minimum payments let me extend your credit line I got you on the hook for years! Maybe those con artists should be investigated for enslavement. Just my 2 cents.

[QUOTE=ThePolarVortex;7123754]I agree. Whether trafficking is at all involved or possibly involved is irrelevant. The multi-month prison term for intent to solicit is all that matters.[/QUOTE]Just to follow up. If you are going to an AMP, where is the intent to solicit? How is this any different than going to Massage Envy? Both are massage establishments.

[QUOTE=TheMundane;7121230].

Unfortunately, a lot of you have probably indirectly partook in a trafficking situation without even realizing it.

That's the problem. That's the reality.

[/QUOTE]Maaaan, don't parrot stuff like that that is simply not true. I can't speak for everyone, but I actually engage in a little chitchat and the trafficking is a joke. Maybe it's an elaborate con and they're just telling me the stories of them traveling freely and where their next trip is to and what their last job was and on and on. Or maybe the puritans just found a new angle to what they've been trying to do since forever?

It's worth remembering that if Tiger Woods had been outted in today's climate he would have been a full on sex trafficker. (Flew some girls across state lines into Vegas).

[QUOTE=WelladJustedJ;7123876]Maaaan, don't parrot stuff like that that is simply not true. I can't speak for everyone, but I actually engage in a little chitchat and the trafficking is a joke. Maybe it's an elaborate con and they're just telling me the stories of them traveling freely and where their next trip is to and what their last job was and on and on. Or maybe the puritans just found a new angle to what they've been trying to do since forever?

It's worth remembering that if Tiger Woods had been outted in today's climate he would have been a full on sex trafficker. (Flew some girls across state lines into Vegas).[/QUOTE]They're not trafficked. They've got more money than you or I do and frequently go on expensive vacations. One friend of mine traveled to certain states with her family and brought back proof. The government doesn't like it because they aren't taxable and deem them as criminals.

[QUOTE=Fharmonic;7123793]Just to follow up. If you are going to an AMP, where is the intent to solicit? How is this any different than going to Massage Envy? Both are massage establishments.[/QUOTE]I'm not a lawyer, but to me it would be when money beyond the house fee came out or was negotiated.

[QUOTE=Fharmonic;7123705]I have been following the posts regarding this new law and I have a few questions specifically around how this law will affect the AMPs. I always strike up a conversation with the provider regarding their nationality and background because I am genuinely interested. Most providers that I have chatted with travel back and forth to Korea on a somewhat regular / yearly basis to visit friends, parents, etc. So then I ask about their immigration status, and most have green cards. So one of my initial questions to this group is. How is this a Human Trafficking issue if they are in the US legally and they are working a job doing what they willing want to do?

My second thought is, if a customer were getting a massage, in a licensed establishment, by a person allowed to be in the US and working voluntarily, unless the police kick down the door at the correct time, how will the police know if there is a crime? And a follow up question is, what would be the motivation of a provider with a green card to tell the police anything after the fact?

So ultimately, what or how would a sting happen at an AMP?[/QUOTE]So, the 'wanting to do the work' thing isn't any more relevant than a US woman wanting to do that work. If she's providing illegal services, she can get busted, or used to be able to be busted. Most of the time the establishment and patrons get busted during raids when they have a search warrant and catch you in the act. They come in very swiftly, so you can't get your pants on, LOL. Actually I think one of the greatest risks is seeing undocumented or green card foreigners. If they are caught doing this. They don't have active immunity from the NC law, because they'll get turned over to ICE and whatever legal status they have could get revoked. The really tricky thing now is that HSI will want her to flip, and one of the reasons they can instantly get asylum status in the US is if they've been trafficked. So, I've been hearing that this is a tactic HSI will use to deliver lots of handler and customer convictions when the provider is a foreigner. She walks away and gets to stay.

Slightly off topic here. But last night I was with one of my main go to. Dropped off two loads. Anyway we chit chatted caught up on times and I brought up the Dec 1st topic. She was completely unaware and seemed shocked. Made me start thinking, how many providers are stuck in lala land and don't know what's going on. I was shocked when I found out that so many people I personally know don't follow / watch / read news unless it's a major event (hurricane, celebrity death etc etc etc).

[QUOTE=LifeCoach252;7124625]Slightly off topic here. But last night I was with one of my main go to. Dropped off two loads. Anyway we chit chatted caught up on times and I brought up the Dec 1st topic. She was completely unaware and seemed shocked. Made me start thinking, how many providers are stuck in lala land and don't know what's going on. I was shocked when I found out that so many people I personally know don't follow / watch / read news unless it's a major event (hurricane, celebrity death etc etc etc).[/QUOTE]For sure. I think the providers will find out once a few of them start having interactions with LEO. Then it will spread like wildfire, IMO.

Yeah, just wait until the first poor schmucks not on this forum get busted and think "oh well, got caught, I'll just try to talk my way out of it and just collect my misdemeanor and fine if it goes bad. " It's going to be a rough time for those guys that aren't aware. For the average monger it probably means loss of wife, child custody / visitation, job, freedom for 4 mos, house, etc. Their lives are going to get nuked.

Guys, thought I'd share.

On this first page of the government job listings you'll see two new openings:

1. A dedicated Prosecutor for Human Trafficking in NC, based in Wake County. Grant funded. Wow. I'm not aware of any other crimes with dedicated prosecutors assigned to supporting local DA's.

2. A dedicated Human Trafficking Victim Services Coordinator, also based in Wake County. This position is to bridge the gap between prosecutors and the Victim's Impact Funds. In other words, because the job is sitting inside and working for the DA's Conference, this individual acquires and coordinates the funds for the 'Victims' so they WANT to testify against the perps. There's already an entire staff on the VIF side at every County, so this position is just to make it easy on the star witnesses against HT's, so that they effectively don't have to fill out any paperwork and get what the prosecutors promised them (up to $12 k per case, per provider).

This is a bit more than I expected a week ago guys. They're coming hard. Stay safe.

[URL]https://www.governmentjobs.com/careers/northcarolina?keywords=human%2Btrafficking[/URL]

Don't you feel so much safer now? I know they must have all the violent crimes solved now.

[QUOTE=MmceStep;7124816]Guys, thought I'd share.

On this first page of the government job listings you'll see two new openings:

1. A dedicated Prosecutor for Human Trafficking in NC, based in Wake County. Grant funded. Wow. I'm not aware of any other crimes with dedicated prosecutors assigned to supporting local DA's.

2. A dedicated Human Trafficking Victim Services Coordinator, also based in Wake County. This position is to bridge the gap between prosecutors and the Victim's Impact Funds. In other words, because the job is sitting inside and working for the DA's Conference, this individual acquires and coordinates the funds for the 'Victims' so they WANT to testify against the perps. There's already an entire staff on the VIF side at every County, so this position is just to make it easy on the star witnesses against HT's, so that they effectively don't have to fill out any paperwork and get what the prosecutors promised them (up to $12 k per case, per provider).

This is a bit more than I expected a week ago guys. They're coming hard. Stay safe.

[URL]https://www.governmentjobs.com/careers/northcarolina?keywords=human%2Btrafficking[/URL][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=NCTransplant;7124887]Don't you feel so much safer now? I know they must have all the violent crimes solved now.[/QUOTE]It's completely ridiculous. I'm sure the 200+ grants I've seen (just so far) are like a cash windfall to government. Samarcand Academy just trained 80 LEO's on the new law last week, and they have another class rolling through this week. All grant funded training. Since most agencies have an officer shortage, they're pulling cops off other beats. The family values cash is FLOWING into NC right now. Meanwhile stores are being robbed, people are dying from OD's, people being stabbed, shot etc. They'll be letting more of those guys out of jail to make room for guys that committed the thought crime of imagining a woman's naked body.

Anyone have dreams with Arielle? She is just my type for the Greek especially. In town until Thursday so any details are appreciated.

[URL]https://skipthegames.com/posts/durham-nc/female-escorts/black_caribbean/bbw-247-sweet-hottt-chocolate-/552721957276[/URL]

New update on Reign:

Dreamed with her and a buddy of mine for $100 even (FS, Greek, Spitroast, BBBJ, CIM / Face) Saturday night for an hour. Good night as expected. I'll probably try and see.

Her one more time before I leave.

[URL]https://skipthegames.com/posts/raleigh/ts-escorts/black_caribbean/call-me-reign-fantasy-delight-/059277785755[/URL]

Had a good experience at Cheetah Nightclub Friday Night. Definitely better luck than I have had meeting at Rick's or Teasers.

Any other Girls who specialize in Greek? I am all ears and eyes.

[QUOTE=MmceStep;7124928]It's completely ridiculous. I'm sure the 200+ grants I've seen (just so far) are like a cash windfall to government. Samarcand Academy just trained 80 LEO's on the new law last week, and they have another class rolling through this week. All grant funded training. Since most agencies have an officer shortage, they're pulling cops off other beats. The family values cash is FLOWING into NC right now. Meanwhile stores are being robbed, people are dying from OD's, people being stabbed, shot etc. They'll be letting more of those guys out of jail to make room for guys that committed the thought crime of imagining a woman's naked body.[/QUOTE]I had to click on the link and look at the jobs, out of pure curiosity. This seems even scarier to me now. The salaries are so low that any attny that wants this job has to have political aspirations. They won't be doing it for the money. That means they'll be looking to make an impact and examples. At least that's my take away. Plenty of guys on here like to state that paying for pussy at x $ isn't worth it. Well, flushing your life for pussy certainly ain't worth it. I'm not going to say I'm retiring bc I'm realistic with myself, but I will be taking some time off and being even more careful about how and when I take a shot. Most likely out of state.

Everyone on here has a different risk tolerance and favorite type of girl but I have to think that every level of this game will be affected, especially in the early days. Not trying to soap box by any means, hope this perspective can help.

One of my work mates who lives in this area has been worried about this only because he lives here and this has been his hobby.

He said he would stick to the bookstores but as I explained bookstores are even more dangerous because they can be raided and you definitely don't want to.

Be caught with your pants down because there is no plausible deniability at the point.

That being said, I have been talking with my lawyer friend and he echoed my sentiment and thoughts. Soliciting a prostitute has always been illegal in NC and that has not changed.

But you clearly have to state or heavily imply sexual favors will be happening in exchange for payment.

As I said before, changing your approach and using common sense is the only way to truly stay safe. I can have sex with as many SW as I want. The law does not prohibit me from doing.

So. The law however does prohibit me from offering cash or any sort of payment for any sexual favors.

Treat the payment as a gift not a payment.

Offering to buy a girl dinner and asking what her favorite restaurant is as I want to treat her to dinner. My intent has been stated. You can't say was intended for sex. What she does with my money is her business but I simply wanted to buy her dinner.

It is no different than me asking a girl out for a date on Tinder or Bumble, my treat of course, paying and we eventually had sex that night. At no point did I pay for sex because I never implied or stated that I am paying sex.

I respect MMSCE's take most definitely but I do implore my fellows to use a little bit of common sense (which we all should have been doing before this law). It's different times now and it is getting harder but being as vague as you can is all that matters in this case.

A girl I am seeing tonight, I asked her on average how much does a Pedicure / Manicure costs for her usually? She told me and I told her I wanted to treat her to that as a gift for the Holidays. Again my intent is to pay for her nails and it was expressed that's what I am gifting her.

At no point did I say anything remotely sexual. I even keep the conversation as vague as possible. My work mate gets all detailed in his text and I am like Bruh you are playing with fire on so many levels. One of my work mates who lives in this area has been worried about this only because he lives here and this has been his hobby.

He said he would stick to the bookstores but as I explained bookstores are even MORE dangerous because they can be raided and you definitely don't want to.

Be caught with your pants down because there is no plausible deniability at the point.

That being said, I have been talking with my lawyer friend and he echoed my sentiment and thoughts. Soliciting a prostitute has always been illegal in NC and that has not changed.

But you clearly have to state or heavily imply sexual favors will be happening in exchange for payment.

As I said before, changing your approach and using common sense is the only way to truly stay safe. I can have sex with as many SW as I want. The law does not prohibit me from doing.

So. The law however does prohibit me from offering cash or any sort of payment for any sexual favors.

Treat the payment as a gift not a payment.

Offering to buy a girl dinner and asking what her favorite restaurant is as I want to treat her to dinner. My intent has been stated. You can't say was intended for sex. What she does with my money is her business but I simply wanted to buy her dinner.

It is no different than me asking a girl out for a date on Tinder or Bumble, my treat of course, paying and we eventually had sex that night. At no point did I pay for sex because I never implied or stated that I am paying sex. Because I am not.

I respect MMSCE's take most definitely but I do implore my fellows to use a little bit of common sense (which we all should have been doing before this law). It's different times now and it is getting harder but being as vague as you can is all that matters in this case.

A girl I am seeing tonight, I asked her on average how much does a Pedicure / Manicure costs for her usually? She told me and I told her I wanted to treat her to that as a gift for the Holidays. Again my intent is to pay for her nails and it was expressed that's what I am gifting her.

At no point did I say anything remotely sexual. I even keep the conversation as vague as possible. My work mate gets all detailed in his text and I am like Bruh you are playing with fire on so many levels.

[QUOTE=MmceStep;7123296]One of the very weird things is that the first two teams plus Invictus were banging away on stings for the last two weeks under the old law. Now the third HSI team is here. We haven't seen anything since, although the press releases tend to go out a week afterward, so maybe they're in the middle of one this weekend, or maybe they're in the middle of training. I would also imagine they're probably surveilling the massage parlors right away. Those are huge charges now for the madams. One thing's for sure, they didn't come down here for nothing.[/QUOTE]

I have 2 reliable providers that I've seen numerous times and for intents and purposes, can trust. I'm sure we probably all have a couple in the chamber like that. However, if they get caught up in a sting and are compromised, I don't think most will be able to recognize it. I mean, if you have seen someone dozens of times, and they all of a sudden say something explicit, I don't think most will be able to stop communication or session at that time. After all, "why would she turn on me"? That's going to be the honeypot that will get a lot of us.

Sure, we all know how to be smarter and not talk explicitly with a provider we don't know. But again, when a provider you know flips, many will go down.

Just something to think about.

I respect MMSCE's take most definitely but I do implore my fellows to use a little bit of common sense (which we all should have been doing before this law). It's different times now and it is getting harder but being as vague as you can is all that matters in this case.

I did, in fact several times lay out a complete strategy to engage in safer communication and practices as you set up meets. But it not's foolproof due to the low threshold to reach intent in NC. The lowest barrier of any state I've seen. Did you miss those?

I think if you have a difference of opinion, what you should do is make your points by citing the actual legal statutes. Explain exactly how your theory would work in NC. If you're just citing 'TV Law' as we call it in the biz, it's not going to be very helpful in a state that works very differently than most of the others. Let's keep it factual. Please don't lead people astray. There's too much at risk for the members of this forum.

Bottom line, you can be as vague as you want, but if you show up at a sting. You're getting busted and they're putting you through the circus. The vague part may help get you off or may result in having charges dismissed after they've published your mug shot, and your lawyer has performed all the work they can perform. I think for most of us that's really too late. My posts have also gone into great length about how you can identify and avoid these stings altogether, which is really the best advice I've provided. For me, I think it might be the end of my hobbying here, at least in the foreseeable future.

Your complex scenario about trading other gifts for services isn't going to matter. You don't need to actually make a cash offer in NC, or any offer in NC. You only need to respond to an ad or to an offer and show up. That's it. INTENT. They prove you responded to an ad for sexual services, and went where she told you to go. The statute says "Anyone who Enters or Remains in a place of prostitution with the INTENT. " 'She' gives you the address and you show up. I think you're thinking about a different State? I'm not sure how you'd go about saying "I was only going to take her to dinner", or who you'd be saying it to. Remain silent.

Again, you can respond with 'common sense this' or 'vague that' but show me how you're going to beat the actual statute in NC to have them let you go at the scene. It is very, very tricky in this state now.

[QUOTE=ScottiePimp;7125301]I have 2 reliable providers that I've seen numerous times and for intents and purposes, can trust. I'm sure we probably all have a couple in the chamber like that. However, if they get caught up in a sting and are compromised, I don't think most will be able to recognize it. I mean, if you have seen someone dozens of times, and they all of a sudden say something explicit, I don't think most will be able to stop communication or session at that time. After all, "why would she turn on me"? That's going to be the honeypot that will get a lot of us.

Sure, we all know how to be smarter and not talk explicitly with a provider we don't know. But again, when a provider you know flips, many will go down.

Just something to think about.[/QUOTE]That's exactly the nightmare scenario. The one you thought was safe. I mean, that's really how they want to get you with this law. The entire law is written in such a way as to incentivize, protect and conceal from you the provider who flips on you. I'll do you one better. If you've seen her after 12/1/24, and 3 years later or 12 years later (NC has no statute of limitations for felonies, another unusual detail) she gets busted for something else, she can hand you over. Different scenario. Let's say she's caught up in a sting and they convince her to flip on a different guy involved in that sting, and she can't believe how amazing the VI Funds are. She has checks coming in to cover her rent, food etc. , and then she decides to monetize her stored text messages, because hell, she's done it once already and she has gold in her phone. She calls up detectives or the Human Trafficking Resource Coordinator that she now has a personal relationship with and says "Hey, can I get more $ by turning in another guy? This could become the easiest business she's ever done.

But, let's discuss solutions, not just risks. If you see a provider, do this: before exchanging $, ask her to double delete your message in front of you. IMO, this is now essential. Let the next entry on her textapp take the future bust.

[QUOTE=MmceStep;7125508]That's exactly the nightmare scenario. The one you thought was safe. I mean, that's really how they want to get you with this law. The entire law is written in such a way as to incentivize, protect and conceal from you the provider who flips on you. I'll do you one better. If you've seen her after 12/1/24, and 3 years later or 12 years later (NC has no statute of limitations for felonies, another unusual detail) she gets busted for something else, she can hand you over. Different scenario. Let's say she's caught up in a sting and they convince her to flip on a different guy involved in that sting, and she can't believe how amazing the VI Funds are. She has checks coming in to cover her rent, food etc. , and then she decides to monetize her stored text messages, because hell, she's done it once already and she has gold in her phone. She calls up detectives or the Human Trafficking Resource Coordinator that she now has a personal relationship with and says "Hey, can I get more $ by turning in another guy? This could become the easiest business she's ever done.

But, let's discuss solutions, not just risks. If you see a provider, do this: before exchanging $, ask her to double delete your message in front of you. IMO, this is now essential. Let the next entry on her textapp take the future bust.[/QUOTE]Once she has your responses it's impossible to have that erased. She can screen shot the text hide it in her photo file or send it to a friend or handler etc etc. That little phone has got a plenty guys in trouble with LE and a spouse. Be very selective of your language and how when communicating.

[QUOTE=XHippie;7127180]Once she has your responses it's impossible to have that erased. She can screen shot the text hide it in her photo file or send it to a friend or handler etc etc. That little phone has got a plenty guys in trouble with LE and a spouse. Be very selective of your language and how when communicating.[/QUOTE]That's certainly true that she could do something next level diabolical. Maybe they will do that as they get more educated, who knows? I think you want to surprise her with this move, before $. Also note that if they have her testimony that she banged you for $, they don't need any messages at all. Your contact in her phone and her testimony is enough to convict you in NC. Once they Identify you they'll pull your phone records. Textapp records, bank records, search history etc. , so they'll likely have other corroborating evidence. They do lots of BS for a felony investigation. IMO, she's probably going to have 100+ other guys in her phone messages. That's low hanging fruit. Don't be low hanging fruit by upping your opsec game. Or quit in this state, which is the safest route.

[QUOTE=MmceStep;7128616]That's certainly true that she could do something next level diabolical. Maybe they will do that as they get more educated, who knows? I think you want to surprise her with this move, before $. Also note that if they have her testimony that she banged you for $, they don't need any messages at all. Your contact in her phone and her testimony is enough to convict you in NC. Once they Identify you they'll pull your phone records. Textapp records, bank records, search history etc. , so they'll likely have other corroborating evidence. They do lots of BS for a felony investigation. IMO, she's probably going to have 100+ other guys in her phone messages. That's low hanging fruit. Don't be low hanging fruit by upping your opsec game. Or quit in this state, which is the safest route.[/QUOTE]So any girl in NC who has some guys number, can just say " he paid me for sex " and that's it? Case closed? What about due process? Does she have to have been a hooker? Suppose I guy leaves a business card at a bar, the bartender is a *****. Keeps card w cell number, calls cops says this guy tipped me a lot asking for head, so now that guy get 4 months and the stigma? This law seems very unconstitutional. What are the cops and judges going to do that monger?

[QUOTE=SimonSmash;7128934]So any girl in NC who has some guys number, can just say " he paid me for sex " and that's it? Case closed? What about due process? Does she have to have been a hooker? Suppose I guy leaves a business card at a bar, the bartender is a *****. Keeps card w cell number, calls cops says this guy tipped me a lot asking for head, so now that guy get 4 months and the stigma? This law seems very unconstitutional. What are the cops and judges going to do that monger?[/QUOTE]So, being in her phone and having her testimony is going to enable them to get warrants for your home, electronic devices, bank records, phone data and metadata, potentially GPS data from your vehicles, and / or TextApp history, surveillance footage from hotels, etc. Her testimony plus her phone records plus a bank record for a fuel stop between your house and her incall around the right time will be more than enough to Klink you up. While smaller depts might not be inclined to do all that, the HT Resource Prosecutor is going to be pushing local agencies and Prosecutors to do all of it. That person's performance will be measured by how many convictions happen in this state. The one takeaway everyone should have is that felony stuff is at another level. On top of that, they're appearing to make this a prosecution priority. If you're continuing, up your OPSEC.

[QUOTE=SimonSmash;7128934]So any girl in NC who has some guys number, can just say " he paid me for sex " and that's it? Case closed? What about due process? Does she have to have been a hooker? Suppose I guy leaves a business card at a bar, the bartender is a *****. Keeps card w cell number, calls cops says this guy tipped me a lot asking for head, so now that guy get 4 months and the stigma? This law seems very unconstitutional. What are the cops and judges going to do that monger?[/QUOTE]Your scenario would not work because there would have to be more proof than your business card and tips. The issue with providers is that if you are responding to an ad that advertises sex for money, set something up and show up for it, your actions show your intent to engage in prostitution. A woman who is not a known provider would have to provide evidence that you solicited her for sex beyond just making a statement. It becomes your word against hers unless she can show text messages, emails, voice mails, etc.

[QUOTE=LifeLine;7129210]Your scenario would not work because there would have to be more proof than your business card and tips. The issue with providers is that if you are responding to an ad that advertises sex for money, set something up and show up for it, your actions show your intent to engage in prostitution. A woman who is not a known provider would have to provide evidence that you solicited her for sex beyond just making a statement. It becomes your word against hers unless she can show text messages, emails, voice mails, etc.[/QUOTE]To catch a predator comes to mind. They only need to prove intent. But even if you are picked up and then released the fact why you were picked up and for what is going to be all out there.

So, with the new law I'm taking it easy for a bit to see what happens. Unfortunately libido doesn't go away LOL and I'll have to be taking matters in my own hands more. Despite the likelihood of getting flamed does anyone have experience positive / negative with fleshlights, automated blowjob machines etc? Curious if I should make an investment. Obviously not the same as the real things but.

Let's say I message a girl on seeking and we set up a time to meet and "get to know each other". Theoretically, that should be safe, right? And then whatever happens on the date is fair game?

Its 2 weeks since the law went into effect. I haven't seen any notices of any Johns being arrested.

At Doctor Detroit. I've not seen any in our area (Wake, Johnston, Cumberland). Nothing in the news either. I'm also not seeing many SWs out either.

At MisterMister46 - go to the SB thread and more info should be there. I would assume that as long as you are talking about meeting for a date (which most SBs will do), then it wouldn't be a problem. If you send explicit texts, VMs, or do it via video chat then you are definitely putting yourself in a possibly bad situation.

[QUOTE=Endorfn2002;7129739]So, with the new law I'm taking it easy for a bit to see what happens. Unfortunately libido doesn't go away LOL and I'll have to be taking matters in my own hands more. Despite the likelihood of getting flamed does anyone have experience positive / negative with fleshlights, automated blowjob machines etc? Curious if I should make an investment. Obviously not the same as the real things but.[/QUOTE]I own two 2 different ones (One for Anal and One for V) and honestly with proper lube it is always a good experience for me. I mean it would be no different than.

A dream with a girl and you have no idea what to expect until you try it.

Honestly though, I have been seeing 2 of my regular girls Reign (For Anal / Greek) and Tamara (For FS) but I am also back on the apps for Tinder and Bumble as well and I was able to gift 2-3 of the women I've seen this week.

Still struggling to understand the motivation with this new law regarding AMPs.

Certainly just going to an AMP is not committing any crime, there is no internet other than a massage. If something more happens behind closed doors, then you would either have to be caught in the act via a raid or a camera, correct? The other scenario is that the masseuse could, after the fact, notify law enforcement. But where is the evidence in this scenario? There are no texts or emails, just her word. Is that enough? And what is her motivation, certainly once the word gets out, that AMP will be out of business.

My other point is that if they really wanted to stop mongers from going to AMPs, then why doesn't law enforcement just shut them all down like they did in Greensboro 10-15 years ago. Not one to be found after the city shut them all down. This would be a much more cost efficient approach to reduce this so called "Human Trafficking" problem.

[QUOTE=Fharmonic;7131607]Still struggling to understand the motivation with this new law regarding AMPs.

Certainly just going to an AMP is not committing any crime, there is no internet other than a massage. If something more happens behind closed doors, then you would either have to be caught in the act via a raid or a camera, correct? The other scenario is that the masseuse could, after the fact, notify law enforcement. But where is the evidence in this scenario? There are no texts or emails, just her word. Is that enough? And what is her motivation, certainly once the word gets out, that AMP will be out of business.

My other point is that if they really wanted to stop mongers from going to AMPs, then why doesn't law enforcement just shut them all down like they did in Greensboro 10-15 years ago. Not one to be found after the city shut them all down. This would be a much more cost efficient approach to reduce this so called "Human Trafficking" problem.[/QUOTE]I mean I wouldn't call human trafficking so-called, mate. It is a problem and it makes Hobbyist like ourselves look bad because mongers.

Will go for the easiest and cheapest option they can find to get off regardless of age, consent, and cognizance. That is a problem in and of itself.

And makes the hobby difficult.

I'm a good man. I work a great job. I respect the women I see and I make sure the women I see are quality women who actually have focus in their lives.

No disrespect to anyone, but I am not usually at a bookstore or prowlng the streets looking for low budget kitty that has been ran through 10 times that day before me.

[QUOTE=Fharmonic;7131607]Still struggling to understand the motivation with this new law regarding AMPs.

Certainly just going to an AMP is not committing any crime, there is no internet other than a massage. If something more happens behind closed doors, then you would either have to be caught in the act via a raid or a camera, correct? The other scenario is that the masseuse could, after the fact, notify law enforcement. But where is the evidence in this scenario? There are no texts or emails, just her word. Is that enough? And what is her motivation, certainly once the word gets out, that AMP will be out of business.

My other point is that if they really wanted to stop mongers from going to AMPs, then why doesn't law enforcement just shut them all down like they did in Greensboro 10-15 years ago. Not one to be found after the city shut them all down. This would be a much more cost efficient approach to reduce this so called "Human Trafficking" problem.[/QUOTE]I answered the legal case question over in the Charlotte forum, if you want to take a look over there. Regarding AMP's they're going to be hitting them from multiple directions. I don't believe any of them will exist in 6 months in this state. 1. The state is ramping up its' massage licensing requirements and inspections. 2. The new law has stiffer penalties for the owners and of course, provides an incentive for providers to flip on them and mongers. 3. Appeals Courts have determined that being sex trafficked is automatic grounds for a deportation stay. If the providers are here on a visa, flipping actually enables them to stay here in the US, where otherwise deportation proceedings will begin immediately. That's both a carrot and a stick.

[QUOTE=MmceStep;7131759]I answered the legal case question over in the Charlotte forum, if you want to take a look over there. Regarding AMP's they're going to be hitting them from multiple directions. I don't believe any of them will exist in 6 months in this state. 1. The state is ramping up its' massage licensing requirements and inspections. 2. The new law has stiffer penalties for the owners and of course, provides an incentive for providers to flip on them and mongers. 3. Appeals Courts have determined that being sex trafficked is automatic grounds for a deportation stay. If the providers are here on a visa, flipping actually enables them to stay here in the US, where otherwise deportation proceedings will begin immediately. That's both a carrot and a stick.[/QUOTE]Thanks for all of your replies. Very concerning and much too risky now.

Here's to a quick and effective legal challenge to the new law. I don't think that's likely though.

[QUOTE=ThePolarVortex;7132745]Here's to a quick and effective legal challenge to the new law. I don't think that's likely though.[/QUOTE]I see a remote shot for the hospitality industry to strike some of the language that gives hotels liability, they should argue 'lack of foreseeability'. Success would only strike those affected elements of the law, and shit, that's at least 2-3 years away, if they really want to fight. Other than that, this law is here to stay. It doesn't even have a public group raising any opposition to it yet, which is a terrible sign after a year or so.

But you typically sure for damages, no? So unless a monger is caught and sues for unconstitutionality of the law, then I doubt it will go anywhere. Imagine the flak a group would get suing "oh, so you're for the trafficking of minors?

Just my 0. 02, again, not a laywer!

[QUOTE=MmceStep;7133687]I see a remote shot for the hospitality industry to strike some of the language that gives hotels liability, they should argue 'lack of foreseeability'. Success would only strike those affected elements of the law, and shit, that's at least 2-3 years away, if they really want to fight. Other than that, this law is here to stay. It doesn't even have a public group raising any opposition to it yet, which is a terrible sign after a year or so.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Santorin;7135157]But you typically sure for damages, no? So unless a monger is caught and sues for unconstitutionality of the law, then I doubt it will go anywhere. Imagine the flak a group would get suing "oh, so you're for the trafficking of minors?

Just my 0. 02, again, not a laywer![/QUOTE]No, a criminal case would have to be elevated to Appeals Court. Zero chance this NC Supreme Court would reject the law. Then, it would have to be elevated to Federal Appeals. The Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals might overturn, (it would probably be close), then NC would likely appeal to the SCOTUS. I have zero doubt that this SCOTUS would uphold, but by the time it gets there maybe the composition of the court could look different. We're talking 5-6 years from now.