Prostitution and Law Enforcement

GT, I believe someone is yanking your chain as well. I've always respected your excellent posts but you lost crediblity with me when you refused to disclose the name of the software you were using. Please post the newspaper articles that will undoubtably be in the papers Friday when all those mongers get busted in Tijuana.

Pokey, I agree with you completely. The danger and risk of arrest add a thrill to mongering in the U. S. that really adds some excitement to the hobby. Likewise, I am an experienced monger who has never had any problems. I've always found it fairly easy to spot stings and real SW's are so obvious in their mannerisms.

JZ, I hope you were just joking about Canada being a model for legalized prostitution. What a shithole Vancouver has become. The highest HIV/Sylphlis rates in North America, thirty thousand IV drug abusing addicts shooting up in doorways and alleys downtown, high crime, etc. I'm thinking of moving my wife and kids up there so they can enjoy the China White and BC bud. Great place to monger but I wouldn't want to live there.

Dickhead, I agree completely, Cops suck, ex-cops suck, and anyone thinking of being a cop sucks.

Civ2K

I think those who monger but think prostitution should be illegal leave a lot to be desired. Pokey's post was NIMBYism at its finest. What I think he doesn't get is that if it were legal he wouldn't have street walkers in his "nice suburban neighborhood." In fact, I think if prostitution were legalized you'd see [b]fewer[/b] streetwalkers and prostitution would be [b]less[/b] visible. I believe that if it were legalized you'd see a move towards clubs and brothels and such. Pokey's attitude, although well articulated, seems hypocritical to me.

Cops will lie about anything. I've seen it more times than I can count. Legalizing prostitution will lower the [b]overall[/b] crime rate.

Civ2k, I think you're being a touch too harsh on JZ. Afterall, there are many here(me included) who appreciate his input into any discussion. Although I sometimes disagree with his views, he does add a intellectual touch to the opinions section. Heck, he even makes me see things I otherwise wouldn't have thought of. Don't stop doing what you do best JZ.

Dickhead, I am one of those people who think that "street prostitution" should be illegal. I have only once picked up a street walker but, I guess Im your eyes that makes me a hypocrite anyway. I feel that it's different for me because, living in Melbourne, brothels are legal and as such I can't see why anyone would want to risk going to a street walker. because

1) Police fine and severe embarresment
2) If they were "clean" they'd be in a brothel
3) No recourse if something bad happens. i.e they steal from you.
4) In some cases, the prices in brothels are comparable with
those on the street.

I know a lot of you out there do not have the luxury of legal brothels that I enjoy down under. Perhaps your opinions would change if you were accorded such priveledges.

I've been to Melbourne and I agree that there would be no reason to pick up a street walker there. They all seemed to be junkies to me. Maybe the street walkers are a bit cheaper but IIRC the brothels were $100 AUD for an hour and with the AUD at $0.50 US that seemed low enough to me that I never considered a street walker.

First, Sainter, I didn't think that Civ2000 was at all harsh (though I didn't see the pre-edited version) -- disagreeing with someone is far different than a personal attack. It's hard to have a decent discussion without people disagreeing, so the only issue is whether it goes past attacking the ideas (eminently in bounds) to the person. I certainly don't expect agreement all the time, even when something seems perfectly reasonable to me -- people come at the world from many different perspectives, and, frankly, if everyone always agreed with me there's be no reason to post in the opinion areas. Viva la difference!

Civ2000, I, on the other hand, would say that Vancouver is a [i]perfect[/i] example -- the issue there is not the model of legalized prostitution, but one of enforcement of prohibitions against SWs and of the drug trade. There are any number of legal prostitutes working in the Vancouver area who have nothing to do with the mess there. The street prostitution scene in Vancouver is illegal under Canadian law, so that's no argument for or against the model. Instead this is an argument, as has been made here earlier, (one of CJ's points) that mongers who don't understand the role of the police in controlling street prostitution are missing at least part of the point, as such activity has negative impact in a variety of ways. There's a heavy drug scene in other large cities in the northwest as well, ("heroin chic" really first made its comeback in Seattle during the grunge years, and Portland's no paradise in that regard either) and I don't see than having a lot to do with a specific model of prostitution.

As Sainter points out, if you've got legal brothels and/or escorts who charge reasonable prices there's no real need to head to the streets. That model works not only in most places in Canada, but in Oz and Holland, etc. The problem in Vancouver is drugs, first and foremost, and the desperate street scene of prostitution there is a symptom of that rather than a cause.

Dickhead, Im sorry for my hypocritcal attitude and nimby views towards the legalization of prostitution where I live . But, I think with my "DICK"
My dick believes in the hedonism doctrine thats holds, pleasure is the highest good, nothing else matters.
I may read Aristippus, and the cyrenaic school of philosophy, but it's my dick that rules my mind.
If at times my logic seems a little off base, twisted, or wrong to you. It is because my dick, doesn't care, it only wants to find a warm pussy, and a BBBJ.

Dickhead, do you believe in Canada's systems of legalized prostitution.? I visit Vancouver in the summers, because its so dam hot where I live in California. I agree with Civ2000, its a shithole, with SW's running rampant. Just look at the postings on this WSG Forum, Canada, and you can see that system is not working.

The reason why that system doesn't work is drugs, without drugs, there would not be enough hookers for us mongers to enjoy our street hobby. Drugs rule the girls lifes: their pussy's is like gold to feed the monster-drugs. We mongers are only a link on the food chain.

Im also a fan of MP's, but only because I love asian women, you can never find asian women in the streets in great numbers. The problem with MP's is you don't always get to choose your girl, and if you do choose, most people tend to pick the nicest looking one. If you ever read my postings in the TJ section you know I don't like assembly line sex, and that is what your more then likely to get at popular legal MP's. My dick hates covered BJ's, will I be able to get a BBJ at these legal brothels? Or will I have to seek it out in the streets?

Hey, some of us mongers are cheap, not all of us can have nice jobs in Ivy towers, taking the summers off fucking in Tail-land, pussyland. Why pay the extra $50 to the house, when you can just pay $50 to the girl, and get everything you want.

Legalization of prostitution will lower the crime rate. I don't even think C.J. would agree with this one.

I'm not real familiar with the Canadian model of prostitution. I mongered in Toronto in the 70s and Vancouver in the 80s. However, in the 70s I was still in my "wonder years," as in, I wonder what happened those years. In Vancouver I called escorts from the paper IIRC; I don't think I did any street walkers, although I certainly [b]saw[/b] plenty of them.

My favorite model is the Costa Rica model: people over 18 can engage in sex for money, or not for money, or for Jujyfruits, and it is not an LE matter. Period, end of story.

Although I don't necessarily [i]advocate[/i] it, I'd probably be OK with outlawing street walking or restricting it to an RLD. However, I agree that the problem in Vancouver (and Melbourne, and perhaps other places) is the drugs. I can spot a drugged out chica a mile away and they are to be avoided in my opinion, whether in brothels, AMPs, on the street, or wherever. I've met some very nice street walkers in places like Buenos Aires and Méjico, who were not on drugs but preferred to be SWs in place of working in a brothel or club. This usually had to do with either wanting to work different hours or not wanting to share their take with the house, and occasionally out of fear of someone they knew coming into the club or brothel.

That is interesting about getting a charge out of the risk of being caught or beat up or whatever. Not my cup of tea, but to each his own. Sounds like the same type of rush a compulsive gambler gets. I also agree with you about the assembly line sex in brothels. That's why this board is so great. You can find the exceptions to the assembly line mentality, of whom there are quite a few. You can also find true independents. I think prostitutes must have the same rights to advertise their services as do CPAs, attorneys, etc.

All that really remains is for our resident statistician to dig up some numbers that tend to support or not support my contention that crime goes down when prostitution is legalized. I'd do it myself but I'm on the move. LE should stop wasting its time with BS "crimes" like pot and BJs and concentrate on robbery, burglary, kidnapping, and murder. If they aren't willing to do that, which in the US they quite evidently are not, then they can [b]eat shit and die[/b].

Ha, ok, DH, I'll do some research on the issue.

Personally, I rather think the independent scene should be encouraged -- not on the street, but independents in bars, lounges, etc. I've always liked places like that in a variety of settings throughout the world, from the Bangkok Soi 7 Biergarten to various hotel bars in Africa, the States, etc. Seems like a generally good compromise: the ability to be independent but a need to not be so omnipresent or so much a social embarrassment that management wants you to leave, no major impact on the kiddies or neighborhood.

Or maybe it's just that I want to see the world become film noir...

"Personally, I rather think the independent scene should be encouraged -- not on the street, but independents in bars, lounges, etc."

Exactly.

"Seems like a generally good compromise: the ability to be independent but a need to not be so omnipresent or so much a social embarrassment that management wants you to leave, no major impact on the kiddies or neighborhood."

Bingo.

JZ, First I must apologize. I edited out of my report a bit of a personal attack. Thats not what I'm about and I enjoy your reports also. I read it and decided it was BS and didn't foster a good discussion of the topic.

Sure drugs are a huge problem in BC. I know heroin is also a huge problem in Seattle (where I live) and in Portland where I visit on a regular basis. But in Vancouver its much more out of hand and way more visible. Although street prostitution is illegal in Vancouver, it is largely ignored and largely unenforced. Thus you get a lot of addicted women migrating there because they can support their habits without being in fear of heavy-handed law enforcement. So in some ways the de-criminalized nature of prostitution in Vancouver actually encourages drug use. Add to that Canadians non-enforcement of drugs laws and you have a big problem. Heroin and cocaine are sold in outdoor drug markets with buyers and sellers for the most part unconcerned with getting arrested. That's definately not the case in Seattle and Portland where reverse drug stings are commonplace. Not to be political here but anyone who says the Canadian system of doing anything is better than the U. S. hasn't been to B. C. High unemployment, a large and decaying downtown core, rampant drug use, high rates of STD's and TB, high crime, high taxes, and on and on. But definately a smorgasboard of good-looking and inexpensive streetwalkers. I'll dine and shop and live in Seattle's clean and safe downtown and drive up to Vancouver to pick up hooker's, though we do have a fairly decent supply of SW's here, but definately no where near what Vancouver has.

I agree with Pokey that even if prostitution is legalized there will always be a demand for the SW. Being able to go out and get a .20 bbbj is never going to go out of style. A huge number of us will never be able to afford trips to Costa Rica, Thailand, or even to AMP's or Nevada style brothels. All legalized prostitution will do is make mongering unaffordable for the average guy. A buddy of mine just returned from a legal brothel in Nevada and couldn't find anyone there to give him a CBJ for less than 200 dollars. He's not very good at bargaining and not an experienced monger but jeez, that's just ridiculous.

I don't think I like to risk getting caught or beat up but there is no denying that picking up a SW is a bit of an adrenaline rush due to all the variables and possible danger. You really never know what can happen. Everything usually goes fine but you're out there on the edge. Add to that the rush of illicite sex and you have an addictive combination. And you're right, its much the same as the compulsive gambler. The endorphins your body produces during a stressful event are the same whether its high stakes gambling, extreme sports, or picking up a hooker. And definately can be addictive.

That's it for now.

Happy Hunting!

Civ2K

It's cheaper to enforce the laws against prostitution than to legalize it then regulate it. Besides, if it were legalized and regluated who would enforce the regulations? There's a lot more to this issue than meets the eye ;-)

Be Safe and BE NICE

Civ2000, no harm no foul, and in any event I operate from the premise that any apology closes doors on a dispute with no residual effects. Anyone can get heated and lose perspective -- that just shows you strongly believe and have an emotional attachment to what you're saying. It takes a big person to offer any apology, and that's the part I remember.

To me the lesson of Vancouver is exactly as you've stated -- that there is a need to keep drugs and their subsidiary problems under control. The indictment in the Vancouver system is lax enforcement, not the legal prostitution structure. Maybe if Vancouver started impounding cars (and I'm using this as an example, not seriously suggesting it -- I don't want to set myself up to be flamed to death!!!) that would cut down on the traffic. Vancouver has become the protypical wild port city of legend, with permeable borders and no oversight, where anything goes, anyone can get anything, etc. Sad, because it used to be one of the jewels of the northwest.

I know what you mean about the rush of picking up a SW, and I've done that in various scenarios, mostly in the town where I grew up (though not lately, since I started thinking more about the implications of the scene) but personally I'd far rather do it in the scenario I described -- a bar, where it's just as possible to get a decent deal and also to get a longer look at the provider -- than by just driving by. Not only because of the risk, but because I think it's kind of paradoxical to decry something like Vancouver's scene but then to patronize it. Doesn't that make you part of the problem also? How do you resolve that on a personal basis? To me, that's gotta be part of my own equation for how prostitution should work -- what would I find somewhat acceptable where I actually live. I've got no issues with brothels, escorts working out of their own places, massage parlors, or subdued hookers at bars being in my neighborhood. But I'm far less thrilled with the idea of a caravan of cars zooming past a line-up of women flashing their tits on the side of the road.

Joe Zop, In all honesty I don't get to B. C. that often and when I do its usually been with the S/O. Its a six-hour round trip from where I live; not counting the hour at the border and driving around Vancouver. Thats a lot of time, gas, and energy spent looking for a BJ that can be easily obtained in 30 minutes in Seattle; albeit the selection isn't as good. Although Vancouver has its problems, it is still one of the most beautiful cities I know and worth a visit anytime.

I'm with you 100% about getting a chance to see the provider up close before going with her. I don't know how many times on a rainy Seattle night I've driven past a gal wearing a hood who looks okay from a distance. I stop and she runs up and gets in the car and I have this disgusting looking forty year old hooker who reeks of booze and cigarette smoke. And they never take kindly to "oops, I made a mistake, please get out of my car." Go figure. I guess that does make me part of the problem here in Seattle also. I despise drugs and what they do to people and do have a hard time knowing my money is being used to buy crack and heroin. There was one gal I used to pick up fairly regular who became pregnant and I just couldn't pick her up anymore. I just couldn't bring myself to give a pregnant woman money for crack. I guess those of us who monger encounter moral dillemas like this all the time; or try to pretend stuff like this doesn't happen. I could have rationalized that even though I wasn't picking her up everyone else still was; so I was acomplishing nothing, but as Jackson so eloquently stated in his editorial section (sorry if I misquote) "just because someone is already a victim doesn't give you the right to victimize them".

That's it for now.

Civ2K

All policemen I've dealt with in the US followed procedure in a polite and uncorrupted way. I've never been busted, and I think it helped in some near-busts that I was calm and polite. I'm sure there are a few jerks in the force, but I suppose they are a small minority. It is the law that sucks, not the police.

I lived in Germany for a few years and believe they have an excellent model for prostitution law. From what I've read below it sounds similar to Australia. Prostitution is legal but regulated, while street prostitution is illegal (most street prostitutes there are drug addicts or trannies -- to be avoided). Women are required to have regular health checks. They may organize in unions. I'm not completely sure about health benefits but I believe sex workers are equal under the law to other workers in the economy. The Costa Rican model described below, being more free of regulation, would work fine for people who are careful, but I slightly prefer the German system and believe it is a good compromise for a conservative society like the US. I believe that data on public health and safety support the conclusion that prostitution in Germany is very safe, but I'll admit I'm not an expert on that and I'm too lazy to research it. BTW, if you like bar style pickup, try the FKK's. They also have brothels (which are cheap) and independents. A very enlightened system !

I would be interested to see if a convincing and complete argument can be constructed for changing the US system to something perhaps along the lines of Germany. Imagine you were writing to convince lawmakers, what would you write ? Let's not just complain (although that's fun), let's try to be constructive.

Snake:

You are quite correct. Cops will respond according to the manner in which the "bad guy" conducts himself. Now there is certainly no shortage of a****e cops out there (they know who they are) but for the most part, if you are respectful and polite and don't try to BS (wrong name etc.) then they'll get you processed and on your way.

Fuck with them and you get handled accordingly, as you would anywhere.

I've read a lot of posts about how terrible the cops are and I can tell you from personal experience that these guys just pick up their assignments, suit up and then go out and do the job. There is nothing personal (for the most part) about it except that some cops have very strong feeling about what we do. Whether they are right or wrong is a matter of personal opinion and I can't speak for them nor will I attempt to.

Guys, be polite to the cops, answer the questions (that they already know the answers to) and don't do anything dumb (like a lot of people do). The cops don't know if you are armed or not, they have to assume you are until they know you are not. Don't go reaching around, just be calm and let them run the show. I'm telling you now, you'll get in and out much faster.

Be a jerk and then be prepared to let them have a ton of fun with you if you have the time and want to be humiliated. It's as simple as that, like it or not.

Be Safe and BE NICE
Contry John