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[QUOTE=HookinUp;7328227]There used to be a good spot right there by T-Mobile bu they closed sometime last year. There is one across from Food Lion but last time I went in there I turned around and left at the sight of what walked around the corner. There's another one down by Food Lion in Brandermill, but they got busted last year and seem to be open randomly.[/QUOTE]Oasis by that Food Lion is closed.
I went to Phoenix in P-burg last week. Some might remember the masseuse with the rose tattoo who was there the last time I went. Probably 5 years ago. Anyway, a short not bad looking masseuse came out and said I'd have to wait 5 minutes. I thought "right". I told her if there was a delay. I'd leave. Surprisingly, in about 5 minutes I heard the customer leaving and she came back in the room. She put the towel on but then took it right back off. She gave a good massage with lot's of teasing. She let me play as mush as I wanted. On the flip, she let me get under her top which was wrapped so tight, I had no chance of freeing them by myself. I left happy with no time shortage which is rare these days, Damage was 60 with a 50 tip.
Little ways out but has anyone tried that new-ish place in Tappahannock? It's not even on Google maps but looks like it might be worth a try.
[QUOTE=StatiK;7328667]Little ways out but has anyone tried that new-ish place in Tappahannock? It's not even on Google maps but looks like it might be worth a try.[/QUOTE]You'll find it discussed previously on here.
Anybody been lately? Anything good in rotation there? PM if necessary.
[QUOTE=Shoxxxnuff;7328983]Anybody been lately? Anything good in rotation there? PM if necessary.[/QUOTE] sending you a PM
[QUOTE=Bucki125;7328364]Oasis by that Food Lion is closed.[/QUOTE]That used to be my spot as well. As far as I know everything in western Chesterfield is legit now. Place behind Wawa is a great massage but always been legit for me. Good spot to take the wife for a couples massage though. Hopefully something fun will open up in western Chesterfield now Oasis is gone. At least that parking lot still has a decent car wash with a free vacuum.
Is the balding, skeletal old woman is still at mountain 🤢.
That zombie needs to be exorcised ASAP.
[QUOTE=MTD24;7326466]Took a trip around the West End hot spots according to folks around here. Last week. Went to Jasmin, Massage by Yue, some other one I can't remember right now, and Mountain.
All had either corpulent or ancient women working there. Call me picky, but I'd like the masseuse to weigh less than me and be younger than my mother.
Ended up at Mountain. Had some old woman forcing me to put my hands on her ass. Asked for another girl. It was acceptable. I think she said her name was Mai. She had some tight shorts on and a bit plump, but still pretty.
She got the job done pretty easily. 50 house, 40 tip. Out the door and on my way. Hoping some better chicks show up sometime soon. I remember Mountain had a tiny sexy little one a few years ago for a while there. Oh well.[/QUOTE]
I've been out of the AMP scene for about 6 months and just started looking again. My faves seem to have closed. The buildings are there with all signage up, but I get an immediate atypical robotic message when I call. No "open" sign on. Checked in multiple occasions so not just a day thing. I was in Midlo area not long ago and found two spots I've never been to, but did not answer their phones so I walked in. At both places the masseuse was old as dirt, and house was $70. I'm used to 60/hr here. So with those 2 strikes, I left both. Are places drying up because of ice concerns? It's a shame.
[QUOTE=ChristNotama;7330831]Is the balding, skeletal old woman is still at mountain 🤢.
That zombie needs to be exorcised ASAP.[/QUOTE]Stopped in to check 2 weeks ago and there was an "ok" option in a pinch, but she was already with someone. Tried again earlier this week and got the pushy crypt keeper. Would've chewed my arm off if she hadn't let go. They must be hurting for business.
Saw a new ad on CL and decided to TOFTT. Eastern Massage is located at the intersection of Cox Road and Three Chopt in a small strip mall on Three Chopt. Was greeted by a probably mid 30's or 40 MT who said her name was Kelly. She was wearing yoga pants and a football jersey which hinted at some nice sized breasts underneath. Paid for the hour and off to the room we went. Kelly gave a decent massage getting close to the boys but never touching. She allowed me to rub her legs and ass and even allowed some OTC rubbing of her pussy. Tried to venture up top but she resisted my attempts. I tried to get her to touch the boys but she refused and told me "Never" and they didn't do that. I may try again to see if familiarity has a different outcome. $70 & $40.
Ortho.
It's a nice massage and she's very pleasant, but familiarity hasn't worked for me and I thought it would as well. I think that she's friendly enough to make us think that so we try again.
[QUOTE=Ortho313;7331326]Saw a new ad on CL and decided to TOFTT. Eastern Massage is located at the intersection of Cox Road and Three Chopt in a small strip mall on Three Chopt. Was greeted by a probably mid 30's or 40 MT who said her name was Kelly. She was wearing yoga pants and a football jersey which hinted at some nice sized breasts underneath. Paid for the hour and off to the room we went. Kelly gave a decent massage getting close to the boys but never touching. She allowed me to rub her legs and ass and even allowed some OTC rubbing of her pussy. Tried to venture up top but she resisted my attempts. I tried to get her to touch the boys but she refused and told me "Never" and they didn't do that. I may try again to see if familiarity has a different outcome. $70 & $40..[/QUOTE]
1. Eastern- like a few of you, I went to Eastern. Excellent massage but zero HJ or anything. I thought when she leaned over and I could feel her boobs on the back of my head, I was at the right place, but no. Stayed for the whole hour and no ending. I thought for sure when I saw the pillow under the table I was going to be good to go but nope. Don't have time to try familiarity.
2. LJ midlo. I believe this is closed for good. Aside from 3rd, does anyone know of good spots that offer similar services like this in the RVA area? I've tried pretty much all of them. PM me if you have any good tips or recommendations. Even a legit UTR escort would be good.
3. Jasmin spa- I went here recently and had a lady named a Cali (SP?) the HJ was awful and felt like she was going to rip off my joystick.
4. General observations- a lot of the places in RVA are packed with old nasty women. I think if a new place opened with some better talent and decent menu options like LJ, they would do very well.
[QUOTE=Ortho313;7331326]Saw a new ad on CL and decided to TOFTT. Eastern Massage is located at the intersection of Cox Road and Three Chopt in a small strip mall on Three Chopt. Was greeted by a probably mid 30's or 40 MT who said her name was Kelly. She was wearing yoga pants and a football jersey which hinted at some nice sized breasts underneath. Paid for the hour and off to the room we went. Kelly gave a decent massage getting close to the boys but never touching. She allowed me to rub her legs and ass and even allowed some OTC rubbing of her pussy. Tried to venture up top but she resisted my attempts. I tried to get her to touch the boys but she refused and told me "Never" and they didn't do that. I may try again to see if familiarity has a different outcome. $70 & $40.
Ortho.[/QUOTE]She is hot and young, but after trying three times I can say she is legit.
Its only her right now maybe after her boss adds another girl we might get dif results.
There is a couples room in there so I am assuming the boss is planning to expand, unless she going to be giving 1 hand massages.
Nice place and the cigar realm next door is nice. Might be a good place to take the S. O so that they can see AMPs are nice while I get my smoke on.
Do we know what happened with this?
[QUOTE=TankGuyWva1980;7333599]Do we know what happened with this?[/QUOTE]I was told they're closed for good. Not sure what happened, though. Mimi and Bobo are at 3rd now. Not sure what happened to Bella in this shuffle. They had a new sign on the door a few weeks ago. But now it's apparently done. It has to be hard space to rent out to any other use there. I would think the landlord would be targeting a new massage joint given the layout and bathroom. They would rather get higher rent for massage than try and get some cheap office tenant in there. I'm sure the hair / nail salon and nutrition tenants on the first floor are happy not to hear the gals on the second floor earn their income.
[QUOTE=TankGuyWva1980;7333599]Do we know what happened with this?[/QUOTE]I was told through text this is temporary and would be notified when it is back open! It has been a while since they have done this but have done it before!!
[QUOTE=TankGuyWva1980;7333599]Do we know what happened with this?[/QUOTE]I don't believe it's closed permanently, just for a couple of weeks. The MTs there migrated to 3rd for the moment, but Mimi mentioned she'd be back there in a week or so.
Is the Moon closed down now? Anyone been able to get ahold of them in the last few days?
[QUOTE=JohnnyCruz;7334133]Is the Moon closed down now? Anyone been able to get ahold of them in the last few days?[/QUOTE]There's recnt reviews.
[QUOTE=BuckMaster45;7333801]I was told through text this is temporary and would be notified when it is back open! It has been a while since they have done this but have done it before!![/QUOTE]Let us know when it reopens, please. I discovered it was closed on Thursday last week. Long drive to be disappointed. I ended up at Mountain and saw Salsa. The other lady, Lili isn't worth a damn for either a massage or extras. But unlike Salsa, bb is an option if you can stand the looks and the hideous laugh.
Given Azalea is unlikely to reopen and LJS is questionable, Petersburg or Fredericksburg seem to be the other options or try 3rd which has been hit or mostly miss. OTOH Moon Girls has a decent offering at a slightly higher price. And their service is better, imo.
Jack.
Jack.
[QUOTE=BareBackJack;7334431]Let us know when it reopens, please. I discovered it was closed on Thursday last week. Long drive to be disappointed. I ended up at Mountain and saw Salsa. The other lady, Lili isn't worth a damn for either a massage or extras. But unlike Salsa, bb is an option if you can stand the looks and the hideous laugh.
Given Azalea is unlikely to reopen and LJS is questionable, Petersburg or Fredericksburg seem to be the other options or try 3rd which has been hit or mostly miss. OTOH Moon Girls has a decent offering at a slightly higher price. And their service is better, imo..[/QUOTE]Yes sir! I surely will! Be safe!
Felt rushed and uninterested. Also couldn't really take me, just an all around not great experience. Should've used the $$ for something else haha.
On CL an ad appeared for one on Broad Rock Rd. At the same time the one appeared for Eastern on Cox. The ad looked promising but was removed after a few days. Did anyone get to try it while the ad was still up?
[QUOTE=RandyJohnson42;7313037]Yes she's the one giving the massages. Used to be a standard finish but I think she got busted and last time I went there were no extras. My standards are fairly low but for just a standard she got the job done.[/QUOTE]News flash: there are old (er) ladies working at an 804-area massage store. I remember about 15 years ago there was a place near a Food Lion in Chesterfield that had an actual 20 something that actually spoke English. Those were the days. In the 804 now, the only question is over 40? Or over 50?
But this place has something that makes up for it: a table shower. Idk, but I always have a better experience with the massage after a table shower. One thing is that they know you are clean -and I was cleaned well. And, I don't know if they know this, but they should be able to know I'm not 5-0.
I had a massage in Norfolk a few years ago provided by an American woman. In the course of our small talk se told me she had a judge (as a regular. I said "I guess he never gets a HE". She replied he always does. She told me that he told her if the cop gets naked then it's entrapment. I'm not a lawyer but I could see this. Anyway, I'm a perv that likes to be butt naked in front of a dressed woman so yeeha!, it was off to the shower.
As old as some of these providers are I've never met one older than me. I've said many times: put the bag over my head and all massage ladies are the same. This place is no different. Nice table shower, nice massage. I believe I got the younger of the two by luck of the rotation. I didn't even see the other one. Table shower time counts as massage time. 10 min table shower, 35 min massage, 5 min foot massage. (Whenever I get finished early, I request a foot massage to round out the hour. (Same as my therapist, a 50 min hour.) I left happy.
Damage is $70 massage $10 shower $60 tip. Bring your 20's.
[QUOTE=BuckMaster45;7334447]Yes sir! I surely will! Be safe![/QUOTE]Wonder if it just gets too hot during the summer up in the attic. LOL.
Like most of you, I've hit just about every parlor in the metro area. Most are older ladies. Here are some notes for ya fellow mongers:
1. Eastern- new joint off Three Chopt. Cute MT but zero HE or remotely close to anything. Bummer.
2. Cosily Lounge (midlo) -the women here are usually younger (30's) and hot. Not a super discreet location. When the weather is nice all the families across the street at Bruesters can see you coming and going.
3. Forest Hill Massage- pretty discreet spot- this is my go to but you have to ask for Tina. She is the best. She does use a lot of oil, though. Also not sure how often they change the bedding and face towel there. I've gotten sick a few times after going but always a solid HE from Tina. They also offer two gals massage but the other lady is kinda older looking with a little belly.
4. Jasmin Spa (goochland) - this place is always a solid option. They try to get good talent but some of the younger gals have moved on. Callie doesn't provide a real sensual HE it is kind of rough. The others are good. Susan is the best in their rotation. The good ones don't seem to last too long there. Probably finding more lucrative work outside with clients.
5. Golden H (midlo) - Fiona is solid there. I've heard of you donate the right amount there are other menu items available.
6. Comfort (midlo tpke) - ugly women but table shower.
7. Cloud 9 (midlo tpke) - ugly old ladies.
8. Mountain- we all know this one- ugly old ladies that sleep in there.
9. Fredericksburg (across from library downtown) - this place is solid. Full menu but Saran Wrap for the CBJ.
10. LJs- will miss this place a lot but their AC sucked in the summer heat.
11. WED Spa in Vienna VA is a good alternative to LJs and they have a shower.
12. Cary- lady has aged but still has a good body. Only went once, though.
13. Anyone try the black lady with big titties and nice cleavage photos on Craigslist? If so, PM me!
I've gone to so many and walk in and walk right out when I see someone's grandmother in crocs eagerly rushing me to come in for a massage. I just can't get into that. YMMV. Oh and there's a cute gal in Petersburg at a mostly vacant shopping center. I forget the name but it's not fronting s crater like the other two more well known joints but it's not far from there.
[QUOTE=JohnnyCruz;7335958]Like most of you, I've hit just about every parlor in the metro area. Most are older ladies. Here are some notes for ya fellow mongers:
1. Eastern- new joint off Three Chopt. Cute MT but zero HE or remotely close to anything. Bummer.
2. Cosily Lounge (midlo) -the women here are usually younger (30's) and hot. Not a super discreet location. When the weather is nice all the families across the street at Bruesters can see you coming and going.
3. Forest Hill Massage- pretty discreet spot- this is my go to but you have to ask for Tina. She is the best. She does use a lot of oil, though. Also not sure how often they change the bedding and face towel there. I've gotten sick a few times after going but always a solid HE from Tina. They also offer two gals massage but the other lady is kinda older looking with a little belly.
4. Jasmin Spa (goochland) - this place is always a solid option. They try to get good talent but some of the younger gals have moved on. Callie doesn't provide a real sensual HE it is kind of rough. The others are good. Susan is the best in their rotation. The good ones don't seem to last too long there. Probably finding more lucrative work outside with clients.
5. Golden H (midlo) - Fiona is solid there. I've heard of you donate the right amount there are other menu items available.
6. Comfort (midlo tpke) - ugly women but table shower.
7. Cloud 9 (midlo tpke) - ugly old ladies.
8. Mountain- we all know this one- ugly old ladies that sleep in there.
9. Fredericksburg (across from library downtown) - this place is solid. Full menu but Saran Wrap for the CBJ.
10. LJs- will miss this place a lot but their AC sucked in the summer heat.
11. WED Spa in Vienna VA is a good alternative to LJs and they have a shower.
12. Cary- lady has aged but still has a good body. Only went once, though.
13. Anyone try the black lady with big titties and nice cleavage photos on Craigslist? If so, PM me!
I've gone to so many and walk in and walk right out when I see someone's grandmother in crocs eagerly rushing me to come in for a massage. I just can't get into that. YMMV. Oh and there's a cute gal in Petersburg at a mostly vacant shopping center. I forget the name but it's not fronting s crater like the other two more well known joints but it's not far from there.[/QUOTE]I have seen the black girl with the huge rack back when she was in midlo in a nice apartment, pretty hot lady, she did come out of her top, good massage but standard HE, didn't get the impression there was more available.
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[QUOTE=HookinUp;7336354]Ok Mongers. So I have a feeling, like some of you probably do, that some of us aren't posting much about experiences because we don't want to see them busted or get overly busy like Polo. I know I have had a "go-to" lately, but I'm getting tired of it. I like an assortment, what can I say? LOL.
If this is you and would be up for exchanging experiences by PM, please reach out. Senior members only that have more to share than what is on the board.
Hookin-Up Out![/QUOTE]Its a good thing, I just want to know if it is worth going or not, tight uzi and great attitude that's it. I already accepted the fact that the local AMPs will be the granny treatment, but am holding to a l.
Quantum sized hope, that someday we will get 20 somethings.
[QUOTE=JohnnyCruz;7335958]Like most of you, I've hit just about every parlor in the metro area. Most are older ladies. Here are some notes for ya fellow mongers:
1. Eastern- new joint off Three Chopt. Cute MT but zero HE or remotely close to anything. Bummer.
2. Cosily Lounge (midlo) -the women here are usually younger (30's) and hot. Not a super discreet location. When the weather is nice all the families across the street at Bruesters can see you coming and going.
3. Forest Hill Massage- pretty discreet spot- this is my go to but you have to ask for Tina. She is the best. She does use a lot of oil, though. Also not sure how often they change the bedding and face towel there. I've gotten sick a few times after going but always a solid HE from Tina. They also offer two gals massage but the other lady is kinda older looking with a little belly.
4. Jasmin Spa (goochland) - this place is always a solid option. They try to get good talent but some of the younger gals have moved on. Callie doesn't provide a real sensual HE it is kind of rough. The others are good. Susan is the best in their rotation. The good ones don't seem to last too long there. Probably finding more lucrative work outside with clients.
5. Golden H (midlo) - Fiona is solid there. I've heard of you donate the right amount there are other menu items available.
6. Comfort (midlo tpke) - ugly women but table shower.
7. Cloud 9 (midlo tpke) - ugly old ladies.
8. Mountain- we all know this one- ugly old ladies that sleep in there.
9. Fredericksburg (across from library downtown) - this place is solid. Full menu but Saran Wrap for the CBJ.
10. LJs- will miss this place a lot but their AC sucked in the summer heat.
11. WED Spa in Vienna VA is a good alternative to LJs and they have a shower.
12. Cary- lady has aged but still has a good body. Only went once, though.
13. Anyone try the black lady with big titties and nice cleavage photos on Craigslist? If so, PM me!
I've gone to so many and walk in and walk right out when I see someone's grandmother in crocs eagerly rushing me to come in for a massage. I just can't get into that. YMMV. Oh and there's a cute gal in Petersburg at a mostly vacant shopping center. I forget the name but it's not fronting s crater like the other two more well known joints but it's not far from there.[/QUOTE]Thanks for the info. I didn't realize Golden H was still open.
[QUOTE=DorkHelmet;7336630]Thanks for the info. I didn't realize Golden H was still open.[/QUOTE]It shut down but is back. They may have a new name or sign on the door, but same place.
[QUOTE=JohnnyCruz;7335958]...
6. Comfort (midlo tpke) - ugly women but table shower.
...[/QUOTE]Thanks for the review (s). Saves a lot of walk in / walk out time. I respectively disagree with this one. Both ladies seem to be lower 40's, which is lower 20's in Northern Virginia age. And, the ts is well worth the $10 price of admission. They keep it the ts-room clean and you will be squeaky clean -every where- when done. And the younger of the 2 (she's the worker not the manager) is as cute as a button.
Took a sunset cruise down Forest hill last night. Decided to stop by since all the daytime cars were gone. Got there and all the lights were off and blinds were open. Didn't get out to investigate further but it was a ghost town minus the tumble weed blowing thru the parking lot. Everything ok there? Just seemed strange.
Parham massage. 50/ half, 70 hour. Two older ladies. Lucy is the better of the two. More teasing and L2 possible. I was promised L3 on my next visit.
Layla Spa Petersburg. 50 half, 70 hour. Decent massages on both visits. Ladies were in their 40's. I drew Lisa on the last visit and a good massage without teasing. OTC no problem during massage. I got far enough under her cut-offs to know she wasn't wearing panties. Open menu during the last 20 minutes.
Mountain. 40 half, 60 hour. Two ladies. One older with gross makeup and laugh is Lili. I have low standards so I tried her. 5 minutes into the massage I rubbed her ass and she dropped her pants and we went to town. She's not worth the $ tip but it was BBFS, no questions asked, CIP. No head. The other gal is Salsa and she's decent, mid 40's, and barely worth the $. 5 you'll P2 P.
Comfort is okay imo. L1 is all I ever got but others claim to have done better.
The Bank on Lakeside. 50 half, 70 hour but the hour is never available. I got my first Saran Wrap BJ here. Not a good experience. Poor massage, rushed, no suction, ugly provider.
Massage Across from Rosies 50 half, 70 hour. I've always gotten L1 there but wanted more. Some have not gotten L1 and there was a masseuse there (young) who didn't play.
[QUOTE=JohnnyCruz;7335958]Like most of you, I've hit just about every parlor in the metro area. Most are older ladies. Here are some notes for ya fellow mongers:
1. Eastern- new joint off Three Chopt. Cute MT but zero HE or remotely close to anything. Bummer.
2. Cosily Lounge (midlo) -the women here are usually younger (30's) and hot. Not a super discreet location. When the weather is nice all the families across the street at Bruesters can see you coming and going.
3. Forest Hill Massage- pretty discreet spot- this is my go to but you have to ask for Tina. She is the best. She does use a lot of oil, though. Also not sure how often they change the bedding and face towel there. I've gotten sick a few times after going but always a solid HE from Tina. They also offer two gals massage but the other lady is kinda older looking with a little belly.
4. Jasmin Spa (goochland) - this place is always a solid option. They try to get good talent but some of the younger gals have moved on. Callie doesn't provide a real sensual HE it is kind of rough. The others are good. Susan is the best in their rotation. The good ones don't seem to last too long there. Probably finding more lucrative work outside with clients.
5. Golden H (midlo) - Fiona is solid there. I've heard of you donate the right amount there are other menu items available.
6. Comfort (midlo tpke) - ugly women but table shower.
7. Cloud 9 (midlo tpke) - ugly old ladies.
8. Mountain- we all know this one- ugly old ladies that sleep in there.
9. Fredericksburg (across from library downtown) - this place is solid. Full menu but Saran Wrap for the CBJ.
10. LJs- will miss this place a lot but their AC sucked in the summer heat.
11. WED Spa in Vienna VA is a good alternative to LJs and they have a shower.
12. Cary- lady has aged but still has a good body. Only went once, though.
13. Anyone try the black lady with big titties and nice cleavage photos on Craigslist? If so, PM me!
I've gone to so many and walk in and walk right out when I see someone's grandmother in crocs eagerly rushing me to come in for a massage. I just can't get into that. YMMV. Oh and there's a cute gal in Petersburg at a mostly vacant shopping center. I forget the name but it's not fronting s crater like the other two more well known joints but it's not far from there.[/QUOTE]
ViVi has gone back to New York and won't be coming back. She was always one of my favorites. She gave a good massage and always was very cheerful and happy. One of the new girls is Lisa. She is cute and has a little meat on her bones and has C or maybe D cups. She gives a nice massage and will bring out the girls for a little nursing. She seems young, maybe late 20's or early 30's. Other girl is taller and older, 40's. Haven't tried her.
I've noticed two different places on East Hundred between Chester and Hopewell. I know one is Massage for You but not sure of the other place across the street from the Food Lion center. Are they both legit or nah?
Tried stopping there a couple of times recently, but their lights aren't on and their door was locked. Tried calling and it went straight to VM. Anyone have Intel? Feel free to PM if you prefer.
[QUOTE=BareBackJack;7338310]Parham massage. 50/ half, 70 hour. Two older ladies. Lucy is the better of the two. More teasing and L2 possible. I was promised L3 on my next visit.
Layla Spa Petersburg. 50 half, 70 hour. Decent massages on both visits. Ladies were in their 40's. I drew Lisa on the last visit and a good massage without teasing. OTC no problem during massage. I got far enough under her cut-offs to know she wasn't wearing panties. Open menu during the last 20 minutes.
Mountain. 40 half, 60 hour. Two ladies. One older with gross makeup and laugh is Lili. I have low standards so I tried her. 5 minutes into the massage I rubbed her ass and she dropped her pants and we went to town. She's not worth the $ tip but it was BBFS, no questions asked, CIP. No head. The other gal is Salsa and she's decent, mid 40's, and barely worth the $. 5 you'll P2 P.
Comfort is okay imo. L1 is all I ever got but others claim to have done better.
The Bank on Lakeside. 50 half, 70 hour but the hour is never available. I got my first Saran Wrap BJ here. Not a good experience. Poor massage, rushed, no suction, ugly provider..[/QUOTE]Thanks! I'll have to check out Bank at Lakeside. I have no clue where that is. Comfort is decent but I have had two different ladies there and neither were remotely attractive. One took off her shirt.
[QUOTE=JohnnyCruz;7338712]Thanks! I'll have to check out Bank at Lakeside. I have no clue where that is. Comfort is decent but I have had two different ladies there and neither were remotely attractive. One took off her shirt.[/QUOTE]Lakeside at Dumbarton.