Suitcase city shanking

[QUOTE=ChaseStar;5480935]"Clot shot"? Really? I hadn't heard that term and had to look that one up. It seems that someone here has been following the disinformation on Faux News and Fakebook a little too closely.

Here are the REAL facts. There has been ZERO indication of increased risk of TTS (blood clots) from either the Moderna or Pfizer vaccines that most of us have gotten in the US. There is some indication of increased risk for those taking the J&J vaccine but even that is on the order of just 0. 0002%. As of the end of April (around the time that the CDC, out of an overabundance of caution, put a temporary pause on that vaccine), that amounted to a whooping 15 cases out of 8 million J&J doses administered. I believe that all, or at worst nearly all, of those 15 were in women between the ages of 18-59. I don't know about TTY954, but I don't fall into that demographic, but if I did and was worried about blood clots it'd be a simple matter to just get the Pfizer or Moderna shots instead. Oh yeah, and out of those 15 only 3 of the women died from it. The rest were able to get supplementary treatment that cleared it up.

Let's put that into some perspective. Risk of clots from Moderna or Pfizer essentially zero. Risk for J&J for men essentially zero. Overall risk for J&J, less than 2 in a million. That's less than the risk of getting struck by lightning here in the Tampa Bay area (I guess those idiots who refuse to get the so-called "clot shot" must also cower in fear whenever there's a storm). Meanwhile, there has been 35.6M cases of covid in the US. That's nearly 1 in TEN people, not million, ie around 100,000 times more likely. About 1 in 6 of those have been severe enough to cause difficulty breathing. The current rate of covid cases requiring hospitalization in Florida is on the order of 200 per million and rising rapidly as the much more contagious delta variant continues to spread. That's more than 100 times the risk of getting blood clots (most of which are treatable without hospitalization) and many times even more than that unless you're a woman of child-bearing age.

Everyone has their own level of risk tolerance. Some people fear taking risks that others take in stride. And that's perfectly their right and all well and good. But it makes absolutely no sense to fear something that's extremely unlikely (and in most cases inconsequential even if it does occur) while at the very same time completely disregarding a much much greater risk that can easily be avoided..[/QUOTE]The folks who have died from COVID after the vaccine all assumed they were safe. There is always a risk, and one can easily get COVID from a vaccinated person as an unvaccinated person.

Stating Polio and MMR is slightly incorrect. Those caused upwards of 30% mortality rates. Paralysis, disfigurement, etc were common effects. Unless something has changed lately, Covid has non of those severe issues. IT also has a 2% mortality rate, per CDC.

And looking at the 600 K American rates, let's not forget that at the start, the numbers were inflated as MEs and our wonderful politicos, all claimed anyone that died with the virus, died from the virus, even when the death was something else. Many American had underlying conditions. All the folks I've known (either personally, or a family member of a friend / coworker) except one, have had other severe issues. We can still say 600 K, but the reality is that actual COVID is probably less.

Either way, I'll take my chances. I've been good so far with all my precautions.

[QUOTE=SmittyQbert;5482874]The folks who have died from COVID after the vaccine all assumed they were safe. There is always a risk, and one can easily get COVID from a vaccinated person as an unvaccinated person.

Stating Polio and MMR is slightly incorrect. Those caused upwards of 30% mortality rates. Paralysis, disfigurement, etc were common effects. Unless something has changed lately, Covid has non of those severe issues. IT also has a 2% mortality rate, per CDC.

And looking at the 600 K American rates, let's not forget that at the start, the numbers were inflated as MEs and our wonderful politicos, all claimed anyone that died with the virus, died from the virus, even when the death was something else. Many American had underlying conditions. All the folks I've known (either personally, or a family member of a friend / coworker) except one, have had other severe issues. We can still say 600 K, but the reality is that actual COVID is probably less.

Either way, I'll take my chances. I've been good so far with all my precautions.[/QUOTE]Actually there's an interesting book written by the guy who came up with the first successful polio vaccine. He wrote a book called The Survival of the Wisest. You can't find the book anymore. It was about 60 bucks or so until cvid hit and then went up to like 900 and now is gone. Your only bet now in discovering what it was about (unless you can possibly find it in a library) is reading the amazon reviews. Here's the link for anyone interested, as I've said the book has completely disappeared now. I wonder why?

[URL]https://www.amazon.com/Survival-Wisest-Jonas-Salk/dp/006013738X/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=survival[/URL]+of+the+wisest&qid=1628293923&sr=8-3.

Just found a short and longer summary on youtube also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0yXCEanZww

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1C8haClASQI

[QUOTE=LuckyToo;5480539]98 percent of the hospitalize COVID patients are non vaccinated. What's wrong with these people? Every pharmacy, Walmart, Publix, Sam's club, Costco offer them for free-there is no line to get one. Half the icu's are full of COVID patients that are just non compliant people that come up with some conspiracy theory. The want free rent, free money from the government. Refuse to go to work even though the health care workers and first responders have to go and take care of these people. To me that's just irresponsible for themselves and others. Most of all this could be preventable by a simple shot for free. I feel sorry for the ones that got vaccinated and immune suppressed, and kids- everyone's had over a year to get vaccinated. Just idiots overwhelmingly overloading our health care system.[/QUOTE]The store paid me in free groceries to receive the no-cost vax there.

[QUOTE=SmittyQbert;5482874]The folks who have died from COVID after the vaccine all assumed they were safe.[/QUOTE]I'm sure most of them did, but safe is a relative term. The vaccine was never promised to be absolutely 100% effective. Administer a vaccine that is 99.99% effective at preventing deaths to 180 M people and you're still going to get a few thousand deaths. That's still more than 100 times better than the over SIX HUNDRED THOUSAND who died without the vaccine.[QUOTE=SmittyQbert;5482874]There is always a risk[/QUOTE]Again, that's true. But does that mean one shouldn't at least try to minimize or mitigate risk even if one can't eliminate it completely? Or that, even if there's still some risk from whatever course of action one takes, that course of action (or in this case inaction) carries the same level of risk as another? Of course not.[QUOTE=SmittyQbert;5482874]...and one can easily get COVID from a vaccinated person as an unvaccinated person.[/QUOTE]One certainly can get covid from a vaccinated person but exactly how easily and under what circumstances and whether that is as easily as it spreads from unvaccinated people are still open scientific questions. However you don't need to be a scientist to see that (at least up until the spread of the delta variant and even to a degree since) lower transmission rates have correlated with areas with higher vaccination rates. That certainly strongly suggests that there's also at least some benefit to vaccinations for lowering transmission of covid (on top of the other more obvious benefits of lower hospitalizations and deaths).[QUOTE=SmittyQbert;5482874]Stating Polio and MMR is slightly incorrect. Those caused upwards of 30% mortality rates. Paralysis, disfigurement, etc were common effects.[/QUOTE]I think you're more than slightly incorrect there or else are completely confused and misunderstood what I was saying. That 30% mortality figure (15-30% actually) is the mortality rate for adolescents and adults getting the DISEASE (and 2-5% for children getting the disease) NOT the rate for those getting the VACCINE (which is the issue we're discussing here). And those other common side effects (paralysis & disfigurement) resulted from the disease itself (before the vaccine became widely available) and only rarely for those getting the vaccine. Oral polio vaccines themselves cause only about 3 cases of paralytic polio per million doses given (and even fewer cases leading to death). AND, more to the point I was trying to make, those negative side effects of that vaccine occur within weeks of getting that dose and are not an outcome to be feared years later.[QUOTE=SmittyQbert;5482874]Unless something has changed lately, Covid has non of those severe issues. IT also has a 2% mortality rate, per CDC.[/QUOTE]Again, you're completely confused and failing in your logic. No one here was trying to compare the seriousness of polio vs. Covid. I only mentioned the polio vaccine as an example of how any side effects from vaccines occur within a month or 2 of receiving the dose and examples of previously unknown negative side effects for those receiving the vaccine not appearing until year or more later are virtually nonexistent if that ever happens at all.

But let's talk just about covid. Yes, the mortality rate for covid may just be 2% for the general population, but the rate is actually much higher for some segments of our population who can't get the shot. Its also, as remote as that might seem to you, still high enough that I wouldn't want to get it. That's 1 out of every 50 (unvaccinated) people who get it dying compared to just 1 per 1000 who die from the regular flu and maybe 1-2 out of every 100000 who get the covid vaccine.

And that's just considering mortality. Okay, probably you won't die from it. Do you even want to go through the pain and expense of becoming hospitalized or even just stuck at home gasping for breath or become one of the many "long-haulers" whose symptoms persist for months or possibly even years after getting covid?[QUOTE=SmittyQbert;5482874]And looking at the 600 K American rates, let's not forget that at the start, the numbers were inflated as MEs and our wonderful politicos, all claimed anyone that died with the virus, died from the virus, even when the death was something else. Many American had underlying conditions. All the folks I've known (either personally, or a family member of a friend / coworker) except one, have had other severe issues. We can still say 600 K, but the reality is that actual COVID is probably less.[/QUOTE]Many Americans do have underlying conditions, but would they have died from those underlying conditions this year or even some time in the next few years if it weren't for their getting covid. You say the death figures have been overstated by somehow politically biased ME's who were slapping the covid label on any death they saw. I say that maybe the exact opposite has happened. Our own Gov. DeSantis retaliated against a whistleblower who revealed his administration was deliberately cooking the books to UNDERSTATE the deathrate. BTW, I've also known some folks who died last year too (an aunt and uncle) and their cause of death was listed as heart failure even though their heart failures occurred within a few short weeks after contracting covid. Just a coincidence?

Who is really politically biased in how they choose to spin this, the ME's who come from both parties, are professionals with no axe to grind, our wonderful Governor, me or maybe you? One way you can more objectively estimate the amount of deaths due to covid is to compare the total number of deaths that occurred in the US over the last year with the number of deaths that occurred over a similar time period pre-pandemic. If nothing else has changed other than there being a new virus running around, then any increase in the death rate is most likely attributable to the pandemic. And if you look at that the increase in the deaths is actually much more even than the 640 k official death count. So much so that the average life expectancy actually went down significantly over the past year.[QUOTE=SmittyQbert;5482874]Either way, I'll take my chances. I've been good so far with all my precautions.[/QUOTE]That's funny, because that's the sort of thing all the other unvaccinated people were saying before they weren't so good and had to be admiited to the hospital. Many if not most of them then pleaded for the vaccine but, of course, by that point it had become too late. Many of them, who had refused to get the "experimental" vaccine, also pleaded for the experimental monoclonal antibody treatment. The irony there is rich.

Last point, you may choose to take your chances, but what gives you the right to put others at risk. That's like saying "I have the right to drive 100 mph into oncoming traffic, I'll take my chances because I've been good so far and haven't hit anyone yet". Okay that's obvious hyperbole but if you fail to get a vaccination that is readily available to you (or at least mask up), maybe you won't get seriously sick (or crash into anyone, just make THEM veer off the road), but you're putting others, including those who don't have the choice of whether to get vaccinated or not (e.g. children under 12, immune compromised individuals, etc.). And let's be clear, if you choose not to be vaccinated or can't, the CDC has been recommending that any of those people wear a mask in enclosed public spaces, but because of our Governor, that's impossible to enforce and I'm sure most of the unvaccinated are among the exact same group as those who also refuse to wear masks. Unvaccinated people don't appreciate being shamed or lectured to. Well vaccinated people don't appreciate having to put on their masks again, even though they feel they've already done their part to try to achieve that herd immunity, because of the failure of others to get vaccinated and reduce community spread.

Chase. I believe that was very well said. Ajdal out.

[QUOTE=ChaseStar;5483868]I'm sure most of them did, but safe is a relative term. The vaccine was never promised to be absolutely 100% effective. Administer a vaccine that is 99.99% effective at preventing deaths to 180 M people and you're still going to get a few thousand deaths. That's still more than 100 times better than the over SIX HUNDRED THOUSAND who died without the vaccine.Again, that's true. But does that mean one shouldn't at least try to minimize or mitigate risk even if one can't eliminate it completely? Or that, even if there's still some risk from whatever course of action one takes, that course of action (or in this case inaction) carries the same level of risk as another? Of course not.One certainly can get covid from a vaccinated person but exactly how easily and under what circumstances and whether that is as easily as it spreads from unvaccinated people are still open scientific questions. However you don't need to be a scientist to see that (at least up until the spread of the delta variant and even to a degree since) lower transmission rates have correlated with areas with higher vaccination rates. That certainly strongly suggests that there's also at least some benefit to vaccinations for lowering transmission of covid (on top of the other more obvious benefits of lower hospitalizations and deaths).I think you're more than slightly incorrect there or else are completely confused and misunderstood what I was saying. That 30% mortality figure (15-30% actually) is the mortality rate for adolescents and adults getting the DISEASE (and 2-5% for children getting the disease) NOT the rate for those getting the VACCINE (which is the issue we're discussing here). And those other common side effects (paralysis & disfigurement) resulted from the disease itself (before the vaccine became widely available) and only rarely for those getting the vaccine. Oral polio vaccines themselves cause only about 3 cases of paralytic polio per million doses given (and even fewer cases leading to death). AND, more to the point I was trying to make, those negative side effects of that vaccine occur within weeks of getting that dose and are not an outcome to be feared years later.Again, you're completely confused and failing in your logic. No one here was trying to compare the seriousness of polio vs. Covid. I only mentioned the polio vaccine as an example of how any side effects from vaccines occur within a month or 2 of receiving the dose and examples of previously unknown negative side effects for those receiving the vaccine not appearing until year or more later are virtually nonexistent if that ever happens at all.

But let's talk just about covid. Yes, the mortality rate for covid may just be 2% for the general population, but the rate is actually much higher for some segments of our population who can't get the shot. Its also, as remote as that might seem to you, still high enough that I wouldn't want to get it. That's 1 out of every 50 (unvaccinated) people who get it dying compared to just 1 per 1000 who die from the regular flu and maybe 1-2 out of every 100000 who get the covid vaccine.

And that's just considering mortality. Okay, probably you won't die from it. Do you even want to go through the pain and expense of becoming hospitalized or even just stuck at home gasping for breath or become one of the many "long-haulers" whose symptoms persist for months or possibly even years after getting covid?Many Americans do have underlying conditions, but would they have died from those underlying conditions this year or even some time in the next few years if it weren't for their getting covid. You say the death figures have been overstated by somehow politically biased ME's who were slapping the covid label on any death they saw. I say that maybe the exact opposite has happened. Our own Gov. DeSantis retaliated against a whistleblower who revealed his administration was deliberately cooking the books to UNDERSTATE the deathrate. BTW, I've also known some folks who died last year too (an aunt and uncle) and their cause of death was listed as heart failure even though their heart failures occurred within a few short weeks after contracting covid. Just a coincidence?

Who is really politically biased in how they choose to spin this, the ME's who come from both parties, are professionals with no axe to grind, our wonderful Governor, me or maybe you? One way you can more objectively estimate the amount of deaths due to covid is to compare the total number of deaths that occurred in the US over the last year with the number of deaths that occurred over a similar time period pre-pandemic. If nothing else has changed other than there being a new virus running around, then any increase in the death rate is most likely attributable to the pandemic. And if you look at that the increase in the deaths is actually much more even than the 640 k official death count. So much so that the average life expectancy actually went down significantly over the past year.That's funny, because that's the sort of thing all the other unvaccinated people were saying before they weren't so good and had to be admiited to the hospital. Many if not most of them then pleaded for the vaccine but, of course, by that point it had become too late. Many of them, who had refused to get the "experimental" vaccine, also pleaded for the experimental monoclonal antibody treatment. The irony there is rich.

Last point, you may choose to take your chances, but what gives you the right to put others at risk. That's like saying "I have the right to drive 100 mph into oncoming traffic, I'll take my chances because I've been good so far and haven't hit anyone yet". Okay that's obvious hyperbole but if you fail to get a vaccination that is readily available to you (or at least mask up), maybe you won't get seriously sick (or crash into anyone, just make THEM veer off the road), but you're putting others, including those who don't have the choice of whether to get vaccinated or not (e.g. children under 12, immune compromised individuals, etc.). And let's be clear, if you choose not to be vaccinated or can't, the CDC has been recommending that any of those people wear a mask in enclosed public spaces, but because of our Governor, that's impossible to enforce and I'm sure most of the unvaccinated are among the exact same group as those who also refuse to wear masks. Unvaccinated people don't appreciate being shamed or lectured to. Well vaccinated people don't appreciate having to put on their masks again, even though they feel they've already done their part to try to achieve that herd immunity, because of the failure of others to get vaccinated and reduce community spread.[/QUOTE].

[QUOTE=SmittyQbert;5482874]The folks who have died from COVID after the vaccine all assumed they were safe. There is always a risk, and one can easily get COVID from a vaccinated person as an unvaccinated person.

Stating Polio and MMR is slightly incorrect. Those caused upwards of 30% mortality rates. Paralysis, disfigurement, etc were common effects. Unless something has changed lately, Covid has non of those severe issues. IT also has a 2% mortality rate, per CDC.

And looking at the 600 K American rates, let's not forget that at the start, the numbers were inflated as MEs and our wonderful politicos, all claimed anyone that died with the virus, died from the virus, even when the death was something else. Many American had underlying conditions. All the folks I've known (either personally, or a family member of a friend / coworker) except one, have had other severe issues. We can still say 600 K, but the reality is that actual COVID is probably less.

Either way, I'll take my chances. I've been good so far with all my precautions.[/QUOTE]"Can I get the vaccine now?" Too late! If you go to the ICU you probably won't make it out alive and that's if there is a bed? Most hospitals are filled up and no staff. A miserable death. Just because they won't get a free vaccine.

[URL]https://www.opindia.com/2021/07/pfizer-contract-with-albania-for-covid-19-vaccines-raises-eyebrows-details/[/URL]

Images are the from the actual contract.

Look it up:

"Vaccines are products that produce immunity to a specific disease".

When I was a kid we all got the police vaccine. No one who got the polio vaccine got polio, ZERO. These so-called "vaccines" do NOT produce immunity. So now they claim it makes the symptoms less severe. There is zero evidence the "vaccines" make symptoms less severe, thecy could make symptoms MORE severe. Hydroxicloriquin makes the symptoms less severe, should we all take it instead?

We don't care what you posit is happening to your patients. Toe the official line or we take your livelihood.

[URL]https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/digital-marketing/physicians-who-post-covid-19-vaccine-misinformation-may-lose-license-medical-panel-says.html[/URL]

This latest action by the Federation of State Medical Boards does it for me. I totally trust and believe that my father's heart ablation, sister in law's gallbladder removal, and friend's myocarditis after the shot are clearly just a coincidence. These vaccinations are very useful even though they don't protect you from getting or spreading the virus, they at least lessen the symptoms a bit. It's said that the flu kills more people a year than cvid. That's nonsense. The 99 percent survival rate of healthy individuals is conjecture at best. The billions of dollars the pharma companies are getting and the millions going to those dispersing it have no motive to continue to do so. It is doubtful that there will be multiple variants and multiple booster shots coming next. The fact that at least Pfizer (and most likely the others) made sure that there is absolutely no possible avenue for any legal recourse from any vaccine side effects, simply is to protect the company from wackos looking for a payday. It doesn't mean the vaccines aren't safe nor does it mean they have no idea of the possible long term side effects. Conspiracy theorists think this pandemic is being used as a psyop. An experiment to see how we react, if we will fall in line and follow orders like good little sheep before our masters. Just how much control can be forced upon us before we decide to push back? It is total nonsense. Though Klaus Schwab's books don't help, nor do the World Economic Forum's Eight Predictions for the World in 2030. I also have to admit it is a little troubling just how many companies are in line with the World Economic Forum, but that doesn't mean that they have a clear agenda here or anything and surely everyone knows about them and have done their research anyway.

The fact that hospitals were empty and nurses were choreographing dances at the height of the pandemic and now after the vaccines have been developed and administered to millions, hospitals seem to be full. That has no correlation whatsoever to the efficacy of the vaccines themselves. It is the non vaccinated now taking up hospital beds! MSNBC, CNN, Fox News, OAN, etc, have confirmed that fact. Also, it's not like the Federation of State Medical Board will take your medical license away if, you as a doctor, report there are just as many if not more vaccinated using hospital beds. Keep in mind, that doesn't mean that vaccines are useless, nor that they are failing. There is more conspiracy theory nonsense circulating that the vaccines themselves are the Delta variant and will be future letter variants of the Greek alphabet. I'm going to be the first in line for the Lambda shot. It is your duty to do the same. Disregard my previous post about Jonas Salk and what he could do with vaccines back in the 60's. Also disregard the experiments (that we know about) the government has done on us. Such as Operation Sea Spray and the Measles vaccine experiments on children back in the late 80's. (readers of this forum might find Operation Midnight Climax interesting). It's 2021 and nowadays our government can be fully trusted and they always have our best interest in mind and never their bank accounts. No one has ever heard of a politician going into politics with a fixed salary and leaving a millionaire. That never happens. In any case, the vaccines are free and it only takes five minutes of your time to get. That idiom, "the only free cheese is in a mousetrap" what utter bullshit.

[URL]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/22/rates-of-double-jabbed-people-in-hospital-will-grow-but-that-does-not-mean-covid-vaccines-are-failing[/URL]

[QUOTE=Pussylicker2;5484205]No one who got the polio vaccine got polio, ZERO.[/QUOTE]Inaccurate.

Oral vaccine which has been administered in several other countries (at least in late 2010's), had instances of polio, including some mutated. You can look it up.

Oral vaccine here in the US has been banned.

Also, back in the 70's I think, a bad batch of vaccines here (think it was polio) were defective due to a manufacturing issue. There was an outbreak with the vaccine. So you can't say "no one got it from the vaccine" since that is inaccurate.

Vaccines that you take DO NOT PROTECT ME.

The Vaccines I take DO NOT PROTECT YOU.

COVID Vaccines. Code your immune system. But virus's mutate at an alarming rate cause they are trying to get around "that code. ".

There are already many variants out there. Lambda is next which none of these vaccines will be effective against. Watch.

Why do you think the flu vaccine is a year behind and when you get the shot you can still get the flu? - because they don't know what this years variant is going to be.

Vaccinated / Unvaccinated. They contract and spread COVID. Plain and simple.

Be smart. Wear a mask if you want and stay the hell away from me and I will stay the hell away from you. LOL.

Masks do work to slow the spread. I swear by the N95 - Sitting with 150 people who tested positive for COVID 16 hours a day. For 3 weeks - - in a tight area made me a believer.

Don't believe all the crap on TV. Research and make your own judgement.

[QUOTE=SmittyQbert;5484963][QUOTE=Pussylicker2;5484205]No one who got the polio vaccine got polio, ZERO.[/QUOTE]Inaccurate.

Oral vaccine which has been administered in several other countries (at least in late 2010's), had instances of polio, including some mutated. You can look it up.

Oral vaccine here in the US has been banned.

Also, back in the 70's I think, a bad batch of vaccines here (think it was polio) were defective due to a manufacturing issue. There was an outbreak with the vaccine. So you can't say "no one got it from the vaccine" since that is inaccurate.[/QUOTE]You are quibbling about things that don't even matter. Sure, no vaccine is absolutely, completely 110% effective. But that's not what anybody should be asking about. What people need to ask is 2 things. First, are vaccinated people significantly less likely to get the disease they're being vaccinated against than they would've been if they hadn't gotten vaccinated (aka the question of effectiveness)? And, secondly, do vaccinated people experience negative side effects that are significant enough and / or occur frequently enough that those costs outweigh the benefits of the vaccine (aka the question of safety)?

Does it really matter that much in the scheme of things whether there were zero breakthrough cases with the OPV or there were actually 1 or 2 or 3 or even a few hundred (per million doses given), when there were 100's of thousands of cases of polio worldwide each year among those who didn't (or couldn't) get the vaccine? The actual numbers are about 3 cases of paralysis per million doses of ORAL polio vaccine given vs with 5,000 cases per million who are paralysed following a polio infection w / o the vaccine.

And the overall overwhelming benefits of that vaccine are plain for anyone to see. In the years immediately prior to the introduction of the 1st polio vaccines (the oral polio vaccine or OPV that works using activated virus) there were over 16 K cases of paralysis due to polio in the US and nearly 2 K deaths. After the vaccine became widely available and we acheived herd immunity starting in the early 60's that number dropped dramatically to less than 100 cases per year and since 1979 there have been ZERO documented cases of indigenous transmission of wild poliovirus in the United States. There have been a few cases of imported polio and also VERY rare cases (less than 8 per year) of vaccine-associated polio.

Regarding mutations, since the original OPV used live virus (which the next generation intravenous polio vaccines aka IPV and the current mRNA covid vaccines do not) it did lead to mutations, but those mutations didn't lead to any cases of paralytic polio in any of those people vaccinated. The problem was that the mutation would occur several months later in the vaccinated person and be shed out of their body in their stools and THEN, in areas of poor sanitation and low vaccination, led to renewed outbreaks among the UNVACCINATED (yet another example of why we need to have widespread vaccinations leading to herd immunity not just here in the US but sll over the world). It was for THAT reason that the US stopped using the OPV (I believe in 2010 but it might have been earlier). However, the OPV continues to be used in some LDC's because its cheaper and easier to administer.

Regarding the manufacturing defects, I think you must be referring to the Cutter Incident which actually occurred in the 50's (not the 70's) when the 1st OPV's were first being developed and distributed. That incident involving 120 K contaminated doses that led to 56 cases of paralytic polio and 5 deaths among the children vaccinated with it (plus a further 113 cases of paralysis and 5 deaths among the family members of those children). This was was one of the worst pharmaceutical disasters in US history and tragic to be sure but still a tiny drop in the bucket compared to the paralysis and death that had been occurring prior to any polio vaccinations. Incidentally, what did happen in the late 70's and 80's was contamination of blood-based hemophilia treatment products with HIV which was then spreading rapidly in the US. There have been other less serious manufacturing mistakes, including with a batch of the J&J covid vaccine produced by Emergent Biosolutions in Baltimore last April, but such mistakes are normally caught by the FDA quality control process before any defective product even get distributed.

Frankly, I just don't get why we're even having this discussion. Skeptics dismiss the deaths of 640 K Americans over little more than one year, an amount greater than those killed in all our wars since WWI, an amount that's more than 15 x greater than die each year from the Flu. A disease that was virtually non-existent a year and a half ago has risen to become the 3rd leading cause of death in the US in the last year behind only cancer and heart disease (and with the advent of the vaccines the most preventable of the leading causes of death). But that's what's fake, not these comparatively baseless (and easily dismissable) concerns about vaccine manufacturing mistakes (even though those are either rare or else caught before any significant damge is done when they do occur), mutations caused by the covid vaccine itself (even though they don't use any live viruses and thus can't produce any mutations unlike the wild virus than is primarily being spread, and possibly mutate, either among the unvaccinated or among everybody in areas with low vaccination rates and wide community spread), long term negative side effects (even though, with all previous vaccines, any such side effects have only occurred in the short period immediately after receiving the vaccine and are either extremely rare or very minor), very rare symptomatic breakthrough cases (even though very very few of those are serious enough to require hospitalization and even fewer still lead to death compared to hospitalizations and deaths among the unvaccinated) and the (unfortunate) fact that vaccinated can to some degree or another (the science is still out on exactly degree) still spread the disease (even though, at least until the appearance of new variants, areas with higher rates of vaccinations correlate with lower rates of spread in those areas).

These and other "arguments" are being thrown up as (extremely lame) excuses for resisting the public safety measures that might (and probably would) knock this virus back down to, if not virtually eradicated diease like polio, smallpox and tuberculosis, then at least a more easily managed disease like the seasonal flu. And in most cases they're being promulgated by the very same people who believed in the winter of 2020 that the pandemic would be over by that Easter, refused to wear masks and practice social distancing in the spring and early summer of 2020 (when doing so might have kept the US from doing so much more poorly than nearly every other leading country in the world) and believed (and apparently still believe) that anti-malarial medication and injected bleach are the more effective way out of this pandemic. And all of those erroneous beliefs were based upon politics and wishful thinking rather than science (as is evidenced by the fact that most of those same people readily take any number of other vaccines or accept other public safety measures such as buckling up when they drive and refraining from smoking in areas where smoking is prohibiited). So why, other than politics, do they refuse vaccines and other safety measures in the case of this particular disease? Whether they're willing to admit it or not, all those early foolish beliefs (that covid would quickly disappear and that we never needed to wear masks or lockdown) have long since been proven tragically wrong (and were clearly wrong even at that time). But now we're supposed to their equally foolish beliefs about the vaccines?

No one likes to admit when they're wrong. No one likes to feel shamed or lectured to. Believe me, I get that and I don't really believe these posts are going to sway anyone anyway so long as they remain so closeminded. But there must be some point where the facts against one's erroneous beliefs become so inescapable that those beliefs can no longer be propped up by additional lies and misinformation. So excuse the frustration and impatience of those who prefer to believe the infectious disease experts rather than the politicians and media pundits with their own self-serving agenda (like Rand Paul, MTG, Ron DeSantis, Tucker Carlson and most of the Faux News crew). No one, I mean absolutely NO ONE, likes to wear masks, but its even more annoying for us vaccinated people having to wear one again when we go out because not enough people have gotten vaccinated and see most of those other people, who haven't gotten vaccinated, STILL not wearing any masks. And what makes it even worse is that the so-called honor system (where unvaccinated people still had to wear masks but vaccinated could go without) has always been a joke because, without vaccine passports and mask mandate policy, it is completely unenforceable and our Governor has actually forbidden local communities and private businesses from implementing more effective policies on their own. A year ago, he was boasting about not setting local policy or telling businesses what they can do from Tallahassee (which was at least compatible with Republican laissz-faire economics, deregulation and small government traditions) but now he's telling them what they can't do within their own jurisdictions and businesses. What has changed (other than cases of covid in florida being at all time heights)? The hypocrisy and contradictions surrounding this pandemic are astounding.

[QUOTE=ChaseStar;5485483]You are quibbling about things that don't even matter. Sure, no vaccine is absolutely, completely 110% effective. But that's not what anybody should be asking about. What people need to ask is 2 things. First, are vaccinated people significantly less likely to get the disease they're being vaccinated against than they would've been if they hadn't gotten vaccinated (aka the question of effectiveness)? And, secondly, do vaccinated people experience negative side effects that are significant enough and / or occur frequently enough that those costs outweigh the benefits of the vaccine (aka the question of safety)?

Does it really matter that much in the scheme of things whether there were zero breakthrough cases with the OPV or there were actually 1 or 2 or 3 or even a few hundred (per million doses given), when there were 100's of thousands of cases of polio worldwide each year among those who didn't (or couldn't) get the vaccine? The actual numbers are about 3 cases of paralysis per million doses of ORAL polio vaccine given vs with 5,000 cases per million who are paralysed following a polio infection w / o the vaccine.

And the overall overwhelming benefits of that vaccine are plain for anyone to see. In the years immediately prior to the introduction of the 1st polio vaccines (the oral polio vaccine or OPV that works using activated virus) there were over 16 K cases of paralysis due to polio in the US and nearly 2 K deaths. After the vaccine became widely available and we acheived herd immunity starting in the early 60's that number dropped dramatically to less than 100 cases per year and since 1979 there have been ZERO documented cases of indigenous transmission of wild poliovirus in the United States. There have been a few cases of imported polio and also VERY rare cases (less than 8 per year) of vaccine-associated polio.

Regarding mutations, since the original OPV used live virus (which the next generation intravenous polio vaccines aka IPV and the current mRNA covid vaccines do not) it did lead to mutations, but those mutations didn't lead to any cases of paralytic polio in any of those people vaccinated. The problem was that the mutation would occur several months later in the vaccinated person and be shed out of their body in their stools and THEN, in areas of poor sanitation and low vaccination, led to renewed outbreaks among the UNVACCINATED (yet another example of why we need to have widespread vaccinations leading to herd immunity not just here in the US but sll over the world). It was for THAT reason that the US stopped using the OPV (I believe in 2010 but it might have been earlier). However, the OPV continues to be used in some LDC's because its cheaper and easier to administer.

Regarding the manufacturing defects, I think you must be referring to the Cutter Incident which actually occurred in the 50's (not the 70's) when the 1st OPV's were first being developed and distributed. That incident involving 120 K contaminated doses that led to 56 cases of paralytic polio and 5 deaths among the children vaccinated with it (plus a further 113 cases of paralysis and 5 deaths among the family members of those children). This was was one of the worst pharmaceutical disasters in US history and tragic to be sure but still a tiny drop in the bucket compared to the paralysis and death that had been occurring prior to any polio vaccinations. Incidentally, what did happen in the late 70's and 80's was contamination of blood-based hemophilia treatment products with HIV which was then spreading rapidly in the US. There have been other less serious manufacturing mistakes, including with a batch of the J&J covid vaccine produced by Emergent Biosolutions in Baltimore last April, but such mistakes are normally caught by the FDA quality control process before any defective product even get distributed.

Frankly, I just don't get why we're even having this discussion. Skeptics dismiss the deaths of 640 K Americans over little more than one year, an amount greater than those killed in all our wars since WWI, an amount that's more than 15 x greater than die each year from the Flu. A disease that was virtually non-existent a year and a half ago has risen to become the 3rd leading cause of death in the US in the last year behind only cancer and heart disease (and with the advent of the vaccines the most preventable of the leading causes of death). But that's what's fake, not these comparatively baseless (and easily dismissable) concerns about vaccine manufacturing mistakes (even though those are either rare or else caught before any significant damge is done when they do occur), mutations caused by the covid vaccine itself (even though they don't use any live viruses and thus can't produce any mutations unlike the wild virus than is primarily being spread, and possibly mutate, either among the unvaccinated or among everybody in areas with low vaccination rates and wide community spread), long term negative side effects (even though, with all previous vaccines, any such side effects have only occurred in the short period immediately after receiving the vaccine and are either extremely rare or very minor), very rare symptomatic breakthrough cases (even though very very few of those are serious enough to require hospitalization and even fewer still lead to death compared to hospitalizations and deaths among the unvaccinated) and the (unfortunate) fact that vaccinated can to some degree or another (the science is still out on exactly degree) still spread the disease (even though, at least until the appearance of new variants, areas with higher rates of vaccinations correlate with lower rates of spread in those areas).

These and other "arguments" are being thrown up as (extremely lame) excuses for resisting the public safety measures that might (and probably would) knock this virus back down to, if not virtually eradicated diease like polio, smallpox and tuberculosis, then at least a more easily managed disease like the seasonal flu. And in most cases they're being promulgated by the very same people who believed in the winter of 2020 that the pandemic would be over by that Easter, refused to wear masks and practice social distancing in the spring and early summer of 2020 (when doing so might have kept the US from doing so much more poorly than nearly every other leading country in the world) and believed (and apparently still believe) that anti-malarial medication and injected bleach are the more effective way out of this pandemic. And all of those erroneous beliefs were based upon politics and wishful thinking rather than science (as is evidenced by the fact that most of those same people readily take any number of other vaccines or accept other public safety measures such as buckling up when they drive and refraining from smoking in areas where smoking is prohibiited). So why, other than politics, do they refuse vaccines and other safety measures in the case of this particular disease? Whether they're willing to admit it or not, all those early foolish beliefs (that covid would quickly disappear and that we never needed to wear masks or lockdown) have long since been proven tragically wrong (and were clearly wrong even at that time). But now we're supposed to their equally foolish beliefs about the vaccines?

No one likes to admit when they're wrong. No one likes to feel shamed or lectured to. Believe me, I get that and I don't really believe these posts are going to sway anyone anyway so long as they remain so closeminded. But there must be some point where the facts against one's erroneous beliefs become so inescapable that those beliefs can no longer be propped up by additional lies and misinformation. So excuse the frustration and impatience of those who prefer to believe the infectious disease experts rather than the politicians and media pundits with their own self-serving agenda (like Rand Paul, MTG, Ron DeSantis, Tucker Carlson and most of the Faux News crew). No one, I mean absolutely NO ONE, likes to wear masks, but its even more annoying for us vaccinated people having to wear one again when we go out because not enough people have gotten vaccinated and see most of those other people, who haven't gotten vaccinated, STILL not wearing any masks. And what makes it even worse is that the so-called honor system (where unvaccinated people still had to wear masks but vaccinated could go without) has always been a joke because, without vaccine passports and mask mandate policy, it is completely unenforceable and our Governor has actually forbidden local communities and private businesses from implementing more effective policies on their own. A year ago, he was boasting about not setting local policy or telling businesses what they can do from Tallahassee (which was at least compatible with Republican laissz-faire economics, deregulation and small government traditions) but now he's telling them what they can't do within their own jurisdictions and businesses. What has changed (other than cases of covid in florida being at all time heights)? The hypocrisy and contradictions surrounding this pandemic are astounding.[/QUOTE]Couldn't agree more. As far as I'm concerned if you're an adult and you are unvaccinated and you die of CIVID or contract with horrible complications, so be it. It's just Darwin working his magic on the less intelligent amongst us.

[QUOTE=TheRogue099;5485012]Vaccines that you take DO NOT PROTECT ME.

The Vaccines I take DO NOT PROTECT YOU.[/QUOTE]It's certainly true that vaccines primarily serve to protect the person getting it rather than those who don't. And if that was all there was to it, then the argument that it was a personal liberty individual decision whether or not to get it WOULD be a valid argument. HOWEVER, vaccinations (if widely enough administered) at some point help us reach herd immunity. Originally with covid that was estimated to be at around 65-75%. Now with the more highly contagious variants around it is estimated to be closer to 85%. Its because of that concept that getting vaccination (again if and only if widely enough administered) DOES also protect the people around us. And it because of that why it is a common matter of public health policy that we are mandated to receive certain vaccines and / or in certain vaccinations (whether recipients really want it or not) and most people simply accept that in those situations. Its for their own good but its also for the overall public good. Those mandates have included vaccines for such diseases as smallpox and polio and has led to the virtual eradication of those diseases. Other diseases such as the seasonal flu haven't been completely eradicated but have been greatly reduced in terms of severity and width of spread (yes rogue, because of mutations, flu vaccines are less effective and some people still get sick, but even when they do they don't get quite as sick as those who don't get the shot) And are routinely administer these vaccines on a mandatory basis to certain groups such as healthcare workers, the military and schoolchildren. Whats true with these other vaccines should also be true with covid vaccines. They protect us individually but they also help protect us from each other. The issue is not whether that protection is 100% or not the issue is whether it protects us all as a society more than if we weren't vaccinated.

Yes, viruses can mutate, sometimes at an alarming rate, however the rate of mutations corresponds directly with the prevalence of the virus in the community. Lots of unvaccinated people spreading the disease and lots more opportunities for mutations to develop and spread as well. The Delta variant is more contagious and somewhat more severe in effects, but the current vaccines are still nearly as effective at protecting against that as they are against the original virus. The Lambda variant has been labeled a "variant of interest" (ie not yet a "variant of concern" It is closely related to the original Alpha variant. There's no indication so far that it is any more serious or contagious than the Delta variant (e. G. So far there are very very few cases of it in the US) but there are indications that the current vaccines may not be so effective againat it (meaning even less so than against Delta variant). That being said, there's a reason why experts aren't currently too concerned about it. The emergence of variants has been expected, even possibly ones that are resistant to the current vaccine. The possible need for an additional need for a booster shot or need to tweak the vaccine to deal with new variants has been recognized from the start. The question is how fertile a ground we provide for the development of these viruses (by leaving large pools of unvaccinated people) such that the pace of the emergence of these new strain outpaces our ability to adapt. Thats why certain Americans dragging their feet on getting vaccinated (or refusing to ever get vaccinated) but, even more so, the glacial pace of vaccinations in other parts of the world, is particularly frustrating.

[QUOTE=TheRogue099;5485012]Be smart. Wear a mask if you want and stay the hell away from me and I will stay the hell away from you. LOL.

Masks do work to slow the spread.[/QUOTE]The situation with masks are a bit different than vaccines. Yes, in many ways they are our most effective tool against the virus, but unlike vaccines they are actually more effective at protecting the people around us from getting the virus from us if we are ourselves already infected (often unknowingly) than they are at preventing us from getting the virus from others. That's why wearing masks (particularly if we're unvaccinated) should be even LESS of a personal decision than getting vaccinated. Sure, staying the hell away from each other is also important but that isn't always possible (just as it isn't always possible to get vaccines as is the case with kids under 12 and immuno-compromised adults). If you're vaccinated and / or willing to wear a mask when you're inside around other people, that's great. However, if you're not willing to do either and you go unmasked in public indoor spaces you're putting others (who have just as much right to be there as you do) at risk, not to mention also those people they go home to.

[QUOTE=TheRogue099;5485012]Vaccines that you take DO NOT PROTECT ME.

The Vaccines I take DO NOT PROTECT YOU.[/QUOTE]It's certainly true that vaccines primarily serve to protect the person getting it rather than those who don't. And if that was all there was to it, then the argument that it was a personal liberty individual decision whether or not to get it WOULD be a valid argument. HOWEVER, vaccinations (if widely enough administered) at some point help us reach herd immunity. Originally with covid that was estimated to be at around 65-75%. Now with the more highly contagious variants around it is estimated to be closer to 85%. Its because of that concept that getting vaccination (again if and only if widely enough administered) DOES also protect the people around us. And it because of that why it is a common matter of public health policy that we are mandated to receive certain vaccines and / or in certain vaccinations (whether recipients really want it or not) and most people simply accept that in those situations. Its for their own good but its also for the overall public good. Those mandates have included vaccines for such diseases as smallpox and polio and has led to the virtual eradication of those diseases. Other diseases such as the seasonal flu haven't been completely eradicated but have been greatly reduced in terms of severity and width of spread (yes rogue, because of mutations, flu vaccines are less effective and some people still get sick, but even when they do they don't get quite as sick as those who don't get the shot) And are routinely administer these vaccines on a mandatory basis to certain groups such as healthcare workers, the military and schoolchildren. Whats true with these other vaccines should also be true with covid vaccines. They protect us individually but they also help protect us from each other. The issue is not whether that protection is 100% or not the issue is whether it protects us all as a society more than if we weren't vaccinated.

Yes, viruses can mutate, sometimes at an alarming rate, however the rate of mutations corresponds directly with the prevalence of the virus in the community. Lots of unvaccinated people spreading the disease and lots more opportunities for mutations to develop and spread as well. The Delta variant is more contagious and somewhat more severe in effects, but the current vaccines are still nearly as effective at protecting against that as they are against the original virus. The Lambda variant has been labeled a "variant of interest" (ie not yet a "variant of concern" It is closely related to the original Alpha variant. There's no indication so far that it is any more serious or contagious than the Delta variant (e. G. So far there are very very few cases of it in the US) but there are indications that the current vaccines may not be so effective againat it (meaning even less so than against Delta variant). That being said, there's a reason why experts aren't currently too concerned about it. The emergence of variants has been expected, even possibly ones that are resistant to the current vaccine. The possible need for an additional need for a booster shot or need to tweak the vaccine to deal with new variants has been recognized from the start. The question is how fertile a ground we provide for the development of these viruses (by leaving large pools of unvaccinated people) such that the pace of the emergence of these new strain outpaces our ability to adapt. Thats why certain Americans dragging their feet on getting vaccinated (or refusing to ever get vaccinated) but, even more so, the glacial pace of vaccinations in other parts of the world, is particularly frustrating.

[QUOTE=TheRogue099;5485012]Be smart. Wear a mask if you want and stay the hell away from me and I will stay the hell away from you. LOL.

Masks do work to slow the spread.[/QUOTE]The situation with masks are a bit different than vaccines. Yes, in many ways they are our most effective tool against the virus, but unlike vaccines they're actually more effective at protecting the people around us from getting the virus from us if we are ourselves already infected (often unknowingly) than they are at preventing us from getting the virus from them. That's why wearing masks (particularly if we're unvaccinated) should be even LESS of a personal decision than getting vaccinated. Sure, staying the hell away from each other is also important but that isn't always possible (just as it isn't always possible to get vaccines as is the case with kids under 12 and immuno-compromised adults). If you're vaccinated and / or willing to wear a mask when you're inside around other people, that's great. However, if you're not willing to do either and you go unmasked in public indoor spaces you're putting others (who have just as much right to be there as you do) at risk, not to mention also those people they go home to.