Strip Club Reports

[QUOTE=TrollMahn;6374913]Instead of complaining about dress codes, get some clothes. Slacks are $5 from the thrift store, then get a polo for $3. It's not hard to look halfway decent.

And ffs, put on a drop of cologne. If you look decent and smell good, you generally get more positive attention.

It's a strip club, not a Walmart.[/QUOTE]First off asshole I have dress clothes, THE issue is that they give certain people a harder time than others. I'm not going to explain racial bias on a site focused on T&A, but just realize that FC and LS have and had discriminated against patrons. YMMV that being said if you are of the right color.

[QUOTE=OhioRacer;6375385]I believe they are still closed. I have heard rumors of them reopening.

When it was open it was a urban club. Security was wearing bullet proof vest and carried firearms. Was in there once after they remodeled during the last covid shutdown. Never went back again.[/QUOTE]Honestly, security in "fuck around & find out" mode makes me feel secure. Thugs are cowards & generally won't cause problems if there is a risk someone would shoot back. That said, I would drive in using my pos car rather than my good one.

[QUOTE=Lamarr;6374815]The smoke at H8 is so bad that it is still obnoxiously heavy the next day just as they open to an empty club. You'll reek even then the next within an hour to a level beyond belief even if you're the only patron.[/QUOTE]Agreed. I'm a non-smoker and that club was very hard on my lungs. Yet I kept going back for the affordable girls.

[QUOTE=DooMama7;6375620]First off asshole I have dress clothes, THE issue is that they give certain people a harder time than others. I'm not going to explain racial bias on a site focused on T&A, but just realize that FC and LS have and had discriminated against patrons. YMMV that being said if you are of the right color.[/QUOTE]Well, I am white and I was refused entry for wearing Jeans. I was wearing a polo shirt, but the jeans was the reason why I was denied entry. I was wearing jeans because I didn't intend on stopping there, but at the last minute I decided to stop. It was my own fault. The rules are the rules, regardless of race. It seems like race / discrimination is always brought up. Now, if all dress code rules are followed, then obviously there's another reason. I don't own the club or make the rules, so I wasn't offended. Disappointed, yes, but I was denied entry because I didn't follow the dress code. I get it. I just thought I'd try to get in since I was there.

Went to SC during the day shift. It'd been a while since I had been there, as the talent had been lacking quite a bit. Last trip was a lot of "thick" girls and I prefer petite. To each their own. I can say that it appears the talent has improved to my benefit, slightly.

There were a dozen customers, about 6 to 8 ladies working (that I could see), and I was approached by Kaylee (unsure of spelling). Average height brunette, doe eyes, and looked like Emmy Rossum. A little bit of a tummy (baby damage), but otherwise very nice body. Still not in my definition of petite, but she was very pretty and actually struck up a conversation. Imagine that! We decided on activities at the table and went back for a very positive experience. CBJ, some light pussy play, and lots of moaning and playfulness. Good experience and would repeat at $200. It was so enjoyable to actually have a dancer sit with you, not be on her phone, and hold a convo.

If the cricket could retain this quality of staff they'd be in good shape.

[QUOTE=TrollMahn;6375037]What are the feelings on this club? Worth a stop or just keep driving to Detroit?[/QUOTE]It's currently closed. There were some construction vans there as I drove by earlier last week, but who knows what they're working on. Their last attempt at opening seemed to make it more of an urban club with rap and "making it rain" style atmosphere. As opposed to a laid back lounge atmosphere (think LS, SC, or BTs).

Regardless, there's never been much to report from this club scene whether it be Agora or its former name, Alcatraz. Go the extra drive to Detroit area and you're sure to enjoy the time spent.

[QUOTE=RichWalter1;6376144]Well, I am white and I was refused entry for wearing Jeans. I was wearing a polo shirt, but the jeans was the reason why I was denied entry. I was wearing jeans because I didn't intend on stopping there, but at the last minute I decided to stop. It was my own fault. The rules are the rules, regardless of race. It seems like race / discrimination is always brought up. Now, if all dress code rules are followed, then obviously there's another reason. I don't own the club or make the rules, so I wasn't offended. Disappointed, yes, but I was denied entry because I didn't follow the dress code. I get it. I just thought I'd try to get in since I was there.[/QUOTE]The security at both FC and LS are morons. I am white and I have been asked at both clubs if the dress pants I am wearing are sweatpants, and then after about the third time at FC where the idiot told me "well they looked like sweats to me," and I when snarkly replied "only if your blind. " The bouncer then told me he didn't like my attitude and to leave so I left and drove down the road a bit to BT's and spent my money there. It probably would have been better if I didn't go directly to BT's since I ended up spending nearly $150 more than I would have if I wasn't a bit ticked off.

[B]I'm not trying to disrespect anyone, I'm just trying to tell you how the Flight Club works.[/B]

The Flight Club is the Viper Room of strip clubs, so they can cherry pick who they let in. They don't want the guy that nurses a beer for two hours or the guy that has a problem paying for things like valet parking or tipping the bathroom attendant. The next time a bouncer gives you a hard time (about anything) hand him a hundred dollar bill and tell him you would like a booth. If you can't or won't do that then the Flight Club is out of your league and you need to go across the street to Henry the 8th.

[QUOTE=Checkers123;6377336][B]I'm not trying to disrespect anyone, I'm just trying to tell you how the Flight Club works.[/B]

The Flight Club is the Viper Room of strip clubs, so they can cherry pick who they let in. They don't want the guy that nurses a beer for two hours or the guy that has a problem paying for things like valet parking or tipping the bathroom attendant. The next time a bouncer gives you a hard time (about anything) hand him a hundred dollar bill and tell him you would like a booth. If you can't or won't do that then the Flight Club is out of your league and you need to go across the street to Henry the 8th.[/QUOTE]Well said! I like the Flight Club and can appreciate and respect their rules, otherwise I would just go to Bogarts.

IDK. All I know is that when I leave home I have a certain idea of how much money I want to spend. When I get to a club, if I don't lke what I see then I leave. I'll go to another place and do the same. I choose what I want to do, with whoever I want to do it with. Seems pretty simple.

[QUOTE=RichWalter1;6376144]Well, I am white and I was refused entry for wearing Jeans. I was wearing a polo shirt, but the jeans was the reason why I was denied entry. I was wearing jeans because I didn't intend on stopping there, but at the last minute I decided to stop. It was my own fault. The rules are the rules, regardless of race. It seems like race / discrimination is always brought up. Now, if all dress code rules are followed, then obviously there's another reason. I don't own the club or make the rules, so I wasn't offended. Disappointed, yes, but I was denied entry because I didn't follow the dress code. I get it. I just thought I'd try to get in since I was there.[/QUOTE]I have gone to the FC many times in jeans, shorts, etc. I never wear dress pants to the strip club and have never been stopped or even looked at funny. They definitely pick and choose when and with whom to enforce the dress code. Maybe throw the bouncer a $20 and say I'll dress up next time and see what happens. I've never had to do this but money talks.

[QUOTE=Checkers123;6377336][B]I'm not trying to disrespect anyone, I'm just trying to tell you how the Flight Club works.[/B]

The Flight Club is the Viper Room of strip clubs, so they can cherry pick who they let in. They don't want the guy that nurses a beer for two hours or the guy that has a problem paying for things like valet parking or tipping the bathroom attendant. The next time a bouncer gives you a hard time (about anything) hand him a hundred dollar bill and tell him you would like a booth. If you can't or won't do that then the Flight Club is out of your league and you need to go across the street to Henry the 8th.[/QUOTE]For some reason people who like flight club like to personally insult those who don't. I don't mind paying, I just don't like being robbed and disrespected. Yes, if you hand a c-note to a bouncer they may loosen some silly rules for you, but you're being shaken down. FC and LS cater to out-of-towners who just flew in. Guys that go to a club twice a year may be happy to spend $1,000 a night. We all have mongering budgets. For $500 / week I can hit bogies twice a week. If I was going to FC I'd only be going twice a month. FC and LS don't care if guys come back, they figure as long as they have the hottest girls guys will put up with being abused. Girls like FC and LS because if guys don't want to pay, the bouncers will hold their car hostage until they do. That's why they require you to give them your car keys. You can't have a buddy drop you off. Other clubs like bogies, h8n, BTs, depend on regulars so they don't have these idiotic policies.

And really, if a guys job is to keep people out who are wearing sweatpants, he should learn what sweatpants are. If the guy had asked me if my pants were sweatpants I'd say I don't know, my wife bought them for me.

[QUOTE=DonnyBrasco;6378360]I have gone to the FC many times in jeans, shorts, etc. I never wear dress pants to the strip club and have never been stopped or even looked at funny. They definitely pick and choose when and with whom to enforce the dress code. Maybe throw the bouncer a $20 and say I'll dress up next time and see what happens. I've never had to do this but money talks.[/QUOTE]Exactly this. Not sure what the others are doing wrong but their obviously doing it.

At least twenty dancers there. A solid lineup with variety. The dancers shown below provided worthwhile sessions before. I repeated with one of them today. Her enthusiastic, unrushed VIP performance included a warm-up dance, DFK, FIV with squirting, BBBJ, multi-position CFS, and a CIM finish. Total damage was about 200 for drinks, VIP fee, and dances. Names are in the normal spot.

The expectations for spending at the strip clubs in the USA is fairly absurd for about 97% of the population. Typically guys who have accumulated savings over several years (or even decades) might get hooked on clubs a be a regular for a few months up to a couple years until they have enter their life savings enough to quit going.

For a lot of guys $500 a month is the most they can afford to spend. Guys with better jobs might realistically be able to spend $1,000 a month. That's still only $250 if once a week, $125 if twice a week.

Guys earning well into six figures might be able to do $2 k to $3 k, so if there busy they might not mind $500+ nights.

I would still think 90+% are limited to $1 k a month even if it's their favorite past time.

[QUOTE=DonnyBrasco;6378360]I have gone to the FC many times in jeans, shorts, etc. I never wear dress pants to the strip club and have never been stopped or even looked at funny. They definitely pick and choose when and with whom to enforce the dress code. Maybe throw the bouncer a $20 and say I'll dress up next time and see what happens. I've never had to do this but money talks.[/QUOTE]Maybe I am the exception, but I've never experienced an issue at FC, dress code or otherwise, and have been going there for 20 years. Jeans and shorts are fine as long as they are clean and dressy (in other words, not tattered, dirty, or just looking like a slob). Hoodies and flip-flops are not acceptable and I've seen people wearing such gear not make it past the door. (ditto at Colosseum, as well as Penthouse back in the day when it was hopping).

My troubles have been at Landing Strip, but it's been due to GPS, over-aggressive dancers with whom I have no interest, and their valet parking policies. I go out for fun, not to be harassed.

I'll be making my yearly pilgrimage to the D next month. Still looking for my holy grail middle eastern dancer with extras. Last year had a great older blonde at FC in the afternoon. Maybe BT's this time? I went to Cricket once and was not impressed.

Side note: I'm a native who moved away years ago and used to frequent Landing Strip but went last time and it was dead. Maybe just a bad day. Any info is appreciated.

TIA.

Which clubs have this? I've had way too many older girls. Time for a change of pace.

[QUOTE=Streethunter;6379887]Which clubs have this? I've had way too many older girls. Time for a change of pace.[/QUOTE]Flight Club & BT's.

[QUOTE=Lotsoffun201;6379743]I'll be making my yearly pilgrimage to the D next month. Still looking for my holy grail middle eastern dancer with extras. Last year had a great older blonde at FC in the afternoon. Maybe BT's this time? I went to Cricket once and was not impressed.

Side note: I'm a native who moved away years ago and used to frequent Landing Strip but went last time and it was dead. Maybe just a bad day. Any info is appreciated.

TIA.[/QUOTE]Aw shit. Before covid, when I used to be in Detroit almost every month, I met a middle eastern dancer at H8 North. She was pretty cute, and drunk off her ass. So drunk, that she was very combative. Got a CBJ and asked if she did takeout. At first, she said yes and then said no and got really angry out of no where. Obviously some crazy there. She was probably early 30's, HWP, B cup tits, pretty face, big ass. Only time I've come across one and you think that with the size of the middle eastern population, you think there would be more dancers of that stripe.

[QUOTE=Lotsoffun201;6379743]I'll be making my yearly pilgrimage to the D next month. Still looking for my holy grail middle eastern dancer with extras. Last year had a great older blonde at FC in the afternoon. Maybe BT's this time? I went to Cricket once and was not impressed.

Side note: I'm a native who moved away years ago and used to frequent Landing Strip but went last time and it was dead. Maybe just a bad day. Any info is appreciated.

TIA.[/QUOTE]What the heck?? Fully 1/3rd of the dancers are of middle eastern decent at FC it seems on some Friday nights.

[QUOTE=JackOfClubs;6380658]What the heck?? Fully 1/3rd of the dancers are of middle eastern decent at FC it seems on some Friday nights.[/QUOTE]I was at cricket years ago and met a middle eastern dancer that was actually a former student of my wife. Since her graduation, she had had numerous plastic surgeries to change her appearance because her family knew her current profession. Her father was looking for her and going to punish for bringing shame on the family. That's why I'm surprised there are so many at FC. That whole family shame thing is a real.

[QUOTE=DeadDead22;6380536]Aw shit. Before covid, when I used to be in Detroit almost every month, I met a middle eastern dancer at H8 North. She was pretty cute, and drunk off her ass. So drunk, that she was very combative. Got a CBJ and asked if she did takeout. At first, she said yes and then said no and got really angry out of no where. Obviously some crazy there. She was probably early 30's, HWP, B cup tits, pretty face, big ass. Only time I've come across one and you think that with the size of the middle eastern population, you think there would be more dancers of that stripe.[/QUOTE]The ones I've known prefer to be on the d / l, very afraid of being exposed. I had one regular show me a Facebook forum where dudes would out women in the community and just the number of men and women who jumped in on it. There was one woman where a dude posted the aftermath of a gangbang on it and I just remember hundreds of comments from women.

Thanks for the comments. I'm a dayshift guy and consider myself pretty strip club savvy. H8 and Bogarts aren't for me. Been to both years ago and not my style. Since I'm there for business I can't do nights and have to sneak away. I will have a car and still know my way around well. Think I'll make my way to BT this time and if no luck just head back down Michigan Avenue and see if FC has anything good. Last time I met an older blonde (name escapes me) with a body to die for. One of my best experiences in the private room in ages of clubbing.

Had many a good time back in the day when it was Alcatraz. Been a few months since I ventured in, but the couple times I went in since their over haul, there were Zero extras to be had, and it was much more of an "urban" feel. Hip-hop music, and girls to match. If that's your thing. Best of luck.

[QUOTE=TrollMahn;6375037]What are the feelings on this club? Worth a stop or just keep driving to Detroit?[/QUOTE]

Yes, Both definitely fall into the MILF category.

Shelly has large bolt-ons, short blonde bob hair, good kisser, but can rush in VIP. Carrena has longer salt / pepper hair, also larger bolt--ons. Sexy face. Saw her just a couple weeks ago. Both worth a trip to VIP if you like their looks. If you meet them, tell them Steve from (Women's Basketball) sent you. They will understand, and will treat you well!! Have Fun.

[QUOTE=DooMama7;6369001]So would you classify cadena and Shelly as milfs? Can you describe how they look, I usually stay away from FC for their "dress code policies" which is a dog whistle for discrimination, and the douchey atmosphere it brings. But those two you named sound interesting.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=NorinRad;6381776]Yes, Both definitely fall into the MILF category.

Shelly has large bolt-ons, short blonde bob hair, good kisser, but can rush in VIP. Carrena has longer salt / pepper hair, also larger bolt--ons. Sexy face. Saw her just a couple weeks ago. Both worth a trip to VIP if you like their looks. If you meet them, tell them Steve from (Women's Basketball) sent you. They will understand, and will treat you well!! Have Fun.[/QUOTE]Good to hear Shelly is back. She has danced off-and-on through the past. A little bit of a rush, maybe, but if she likes you, she'll take good care of you. She's probably up around the age of 45 or 50 now, but I'm guessing she's still damn good at what she does and still looks damn good, too.

I avoid Corina for reasons, but Shelly is worth the price of admission (if you can afford her).

[QUOTE=ChimilDetin;6382857]Good to hear Shelly is back. She has danced off-and-on through the past. A little bit of a rush, maybe, but if she likes you, she'll take good care of you. She's probably up around the age of 45 or 50 now, but I'm guessing she's still damn good at what she does and still looks damn good, too.

I avoid Corina for reasons, but Shelly is worth the price of admission (if you can afford her).[/QUOTE]Are the reasons personal or general?

[QUOTE=NorinRad;6381776]Yes, Both definitely fall into the MILF category.

Shelly has large bolt-ons, short blonde bob hair, good kisser, but can rush in VIP. Carrena has longer salt / pepper hair, also larger bolt--ons. Sexy face. Saw her just a couple weeks ago. Both worth a trip to VIP if you like their looks. If you meet them, tell them Steve from (Women's Basketball) sent you. They will understand, and will treat you well!! Have Fun.[/QUOTE]When do the work? And I'm assuming it's day shift?

How much in a price range are we talking.

I don't know why you guys have such a different experience than I do. There are ME girls at every club, at least the suburban ones I go to like FC, Criket, BT's, even Henry's & Bogie's. Toy Chest before covid. These clubs are all in or next to Dearborn, too.

Is every girl ME? Of course not. And you may even strike out at one club. But I'd be willing to bet I can hit up any two of those clubs I just mentioned at any time, and find at least one FS ME girl.

[QUOTE=DooMama7;6383881]Are the reasons personal or general?[/QUOTE]There was a dancer with that (or a very similar) name I met at Criket within the last 6 months, she was a hot mess and tried to pull all sorts of the usual BS with me like arguing about agreed on $$, changing what she'd be willing to do once in back, etc.

Could be the same woman and experience.

[QUOTE=SamPerkins420;6383945]There was a dancer with that (or a very similar) name I met at Criket within the last 6 months, she was a hot mess and tried to pull all sorts of the usual BS with me like arguing about agreed on $$, changing what she'd be willing to do once in back, etc.

Could be the same woman and experience.[/QUOTE]It is not the same chick.

[QUOTE=JulesJordan;5962090]Alasia, Carmon, Chy, Dallas, Princess, Sweet, Thai, and Vegas were at BT's. A so-so lineup. No one new there today that interested me, so I bailed after a beer.

Capri, Cheyanne, Chloe, Desire, Elizabeth, Jordan, Sasha, Selena, Star, Stormy, and Taylor were at Criket. Another so-so lineup. Selena, a slender 20's Latina, interested me, but she was busy with a customer.

Bogart's had at least ten dancers. Annabelle, Cali, GG, Sabrina, and Tori were some names. As expected, most of the lineup was older and / or overweight.

Cali is mid-30's, white, dyed pink hair, B-cup tits, taller height, and has tats. Her inspired / passionate VIP performance today was good. She had no gag reflex for the uncovered first half. I would repeat.

I spent about 200 total today for a beer at each place, Bogart's cover charge, Bogart's VIP fee, dances at Bogart's, and tips.[/QUOTE]Does anyone know if this Cali still dances at Bogies? My biggest ask at these clubs is ass fingering, and the time before last I was in the D, she was the highlight of the night. She wasn't there the last time I went (many months ago) though. I might go down again within the next week or two. If she's still there, what would be the best time to hit?

[QUOTE=SamPerkins420;6383943]I don't know why you guys have such a different experience than I do. There are ME girls at every club, at least the suburban ones I go to like FC, Criket, BT's, even Henry's & Bogie's. Toy Chest before covid. These clubs are all in or next to Dearborn, too.

Is every girl ME? Of course not. And you may even strike out at one club. But I'd be willing to bet I can hit up any two of those clubs I just mentioned at any time, and find at least one FS ME girl.[/QUOTE]She is VERY attractive. Never sampled. Was busy each time I saw her.

[QUOTE=Checkers123;6377336][B]I'm not trying to disrespect anyone, I'm just trying to tell you how the Flight Club works.[/B]

The Flight Club is the Viper Room of strip clubs, so they can cherry pick who they let in. They don't want the guy that nurses a beer for two hours or the guy that has a problem paying for things like valet parking or tipping the bathroom attendant. The next time a bouncer gives you a hard time (about anything) hand him a hundred dollar bill and tell him you would like a booth. If you can't or won't do that then the Flight Club is out of your league and you need to go across the street to Henry the 8th.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Pussylicker2;6378796]For some reason people who like flight club like to personally insult those who don't. .[/QUOTE]Did I insult you? The title says "I'm not trying to disrespect anyone" so it wasn't my intent to do that.

[QUOTE=Pussylicker2;6378796]I don't mind paying, I just don't like being robbed and disrespected. Yes, if you hand a c-note to a bouncer they may loosen some silly rules for you, but you're being shaken down.[/QUOTE]All clubs "shake you down" in one way or another. Does bogies still charge cover during day-shift? Or how about the way the bar staff aggressively pushes drink sales? You have a full beer in your hand and five waitresses will ask (one right after the another every 60 seconds) if you want another drink. Wasn't there a Hamilton's club that made you buy 2 drinks before they would sell you a VIP wrist band?

[QUOTE=Pussylicker2;6378796]FC and LS cater to out-of-towners who just flew in. Guys that go to a club twice a year may be happy to spend $1,000 a night.[/QUOTE]I disagree, 80% of their customers are regulars that spend good money on the bar (buying bottles, food, booths, etc) not just buying extras from dancers.

[QUOTE=Pussylicker2;6378796]We all have mongering budgets. For $500 / week I can hit bogies twice a week. If I was going to FC I'd only be going twice a month.[/QUOTE]I can only speak for my self but I'd rather stay home and read a good book then go to any Hamilton's club. The last time I went to bogies there wasn't a dancer that was under 300 lbs. So for me it's worth the extra money.

[QUOTE=Pussylicker2;6378796]FC and LS don't care if guys come back, they figure as long as they have the hottest girls guys will put up with being abused.[/QUOTE]I think that's true with any strip club, especially if they are an extras club. Strip clubs are not service oriented business, they are not HomeDpot or Outback Steakhouse. They know when it comes to pussy guys will put up with all kinds of BS.

[QUOTE=Pussylicker2;6378796]Girls like FC and LS because if guys don't want to pay, the bouncers will hold their car hostage until they do. That's why they require you to give them your car keys. You can't have a buddy drop you off. Other clubs like bogies, h8n, BTs, depend on regulars so they don't have these idiotic policies.[/QUOTE]Girls like FC and LS because they make the most money there and the prestige factor of working at the top VIP bar. Yes it's true that the bar will use your car as leverage to get you to pay your bill. A lot of people don't know this but the valet company pays the bar to sell their services there (do business at the bar). They are not bar employees. So if a valet company is paying a bar X-amount a month to park cars they might also have stock in a mandatory valet rule.

[QUOTE=Pussylicker2;6378796]And really, if a guys job is to keep people out who are wearing sweatpants, he should learn what sweatpants are. If the guy had asked me if my pants were sweatpants I'd say I don't know, my wife bought them for me.[/QUOTE]I've had this happen to me as well. I think it's just a little hard for them to see (I've had them shine a flashlight on my pants), or they are just give you a hard time. Like I said, strip clubs are not service oriented business.

Just my 2 cents, everyone have fun and be safe.

[QUOTE=HornKnee;6384554]Does anyone know if this Cali still dances at Bogies? My biggest ask at these clubs is ass fingering, and the time before last I was in the D, she was the highlight of the night. She wasn't there the last time I went (many months ago) though. I might go down again within the next week or two. If she's still there, what would be the best time to hit?[/QUOTE]She hasn't been around for months. It's a shame because she was one of the only really fun girls around. No idea where she vanished to. I know she mentioned that she was from Toledo. Would love to find her again.

Has anyone gone to H8 lately and if so how was your experience? I've gone through the posts. Just wanting to hear a recent experience, what it set you back etc.

[QUOTE=CatsCat87;6385065]Has anyone gone to H8 lately and if so how was your experience? I've gone through the posts. Just wanting to hear a recent experience, what it set you back etc.[/QUOTE]Was just there. The girls were older and bigger than I like. But they were all extras friendly. I didn't partake.

Star at Bogarts. Young light skinned girl. Dermal piercings in butt dimples, anyone sample her?

[QUOTE=SemiRegular;6384740]She is VERY attractive. Never sampled. Was busy each time I saw her.[/QUOTE]If this is the same Amira that worked at Criket's then she's pretty good. She's reasonably priced, and when she's in the right mood gives a very good dance, that's not rushed and is a bit more personable than most. Negatives are, she likes to talk quite a bit and can get easily distracted, and is inconsistent. First time I got a dance from her was mediocre but tried her again a year later. That dance and the next time I got a dance from her she was very good. Then the next time she seemed a bit distracted and gave a mediocre dance. One time I got the feeling she was using the dance to avoid a group of customers, but gave a good dance nonetheless.