"Sugarbabies" / "Arrangements" Amateurs or Not?

[QUOTE=SbabyBlog; 1424209]Hi Guys,

Between talking with you all here and my fellow sugar babies on twitter, I've started to think of questions that I am curious about. The geek side of me has taken over and I've decided to design a survey for both sugar babies and sugar daddies to take. I will use an anonymous survey tool and then publish aggregate data as well as any interesting correlations I see on my blog.

If there is anything you're wanting to understand better – sb expectations, what your other brothers do, what matters in a profile etc. – please feel free to send me a pm with your question (s).

I am studying both qualitative and quantitative measurement and data analysis so this is as much an exercise to help me practice what I'm learning. The questions will be written so they do not sway a particular response and any scale I use will be correct so that it does not skew the data. All of this is to say that while I am a baby, any bias I have with this project will be left at the door.

It is simply to let me answer my curious questions, and any questions that you or sugar babies have. Yes, I've invited my fellow sisters to give input into the question development as well. Any questions suggested or any data collected later on will be kept anonymous.

Thank you so much for your help – I'll let you know if a few weeks when the survey is up and you can all take it for me too!

Thanks!

Mandy[/QUOTE]Sounds like we're all going to be helping you write your master's thesis! Just kidding, but will look forward to taking your survey when it's ready.

[QUOTE=AllSeasonLv;1424535]Sounds like we're all going to be helping you write your master's thesis! Just kidding, but will look forward to taking your survey when it's ready.[/QUOTE]While it will help develop my skills writing a survey and analyzing data, my thesis is actually much more business focused. Somehow, I don't see me explaining this as a thesis topic to my family!

Hi Everybody,

I am sooo glad I found this thread. I was in a SD / SB relationship that ended in January and have spent the last 3 months in a search for a new one. I've perused the the threads and have run up against some of the same issues and problems in the process. It is especially hard because the one that just ended wound up being a fairly deep relationship. One problem I'm having is expecting a new one to have that same connection right away. I have to realize that the one that just ended grew over time. Anyway, I've been out with about 7-8 ladies off SD4Me and SA. Mostly positive experiences, and a couple that may turn into longer term arrangements.

It's great to read about all of your experiences. I especially think its great having Mandy's perspective. Anyway, just want to say hi, and look forward to contributing some of my experiences as well.

Atldrummer

[QUOTE=Atldrummer; 1426225]Hi Everybody,

I was in a SD / SB relationship that ended in January and have spent the last 3 months in a search for a new one. One problem I'm having is expecting a new one to have that same connection right away. I have to realize that the one that just ended grew over time. Anyway, I've been out with about 7-8 ladies off SD4Me and SA. Mostly positive experiences, and a couple that may turn into longer term arrangements.

It's great to read about all of your experiences. I especially think its great having Mandy's perspective. Anyway, just want to say hi, and look forward to contributing some of my experiences as well.

Atldrummer[/QUOTE]Welcome to the clubhouse, my brother! I know I speak for us all when I say we look forward to your contributions to the Big Book of Sugar Knowledge that is this thread. My sympathies to you on the loss of your long term ATF. There are several of us on here that live in fear of a similar day, but it is all part of the life we have chosen.

Good luck in your search for a new baby. You are right to feel it will take some time to achieve the connection you had with your previous one, so in the meantime enjoy the pursuit, with all the hits, misses, dead ends, flakes, weirdos and jewels along the way.

Don't forget to write,

Scott

I don't know where I'm going to find the time this week. My ATF is back after a short vacation and has promised me some extended time together. I need to set up a second date with SB2, with whom I had an excellent M&G last week. And SB3 has been in contact for the last three weeks, but our schedules haven't meshed; we did, however, finally set a date for tomorrow. It appears she has dropped all pretenses at this point, as she has suggested we meet at her place. I know she plays pro ball (I googled her number like any good SD should) , but I don't care. As long as I am careful to avoid being taken advantage of and keep my eyes open to any potential danger or drama, I don't care what she does on the side.

I'm also struggling with extricating myself from SB1, who you'll recall is spiraling into Nando1 territory. She keeps texting about her family drama, money troubles, and roommate issues. And I admit I'm having trouble just telling her (politely) to buzz off. She's not giving me what I need (or want) , and there's too much drama in her life. I suppose I just need to "man up" and tell her this isn't working for be.

Welcome to our newcomer, too. I hope you learn as much as I have from these fine gents, and Mandy too.

Regards,

Joe

After todays m&g I am a just want to find out how many of you have similar in my eyes out of touch sb's.

The m&g went great and we agreed to go to the local casino's the day after tomorrow, and she mentions."Oh I won't play with less than $20, 000, that is not problem is it"

Am I out of touch, too cheap, or just normal in saying "sorry babe. Go find another one."

Oh the magic of the overnight. A real SB plus. SB1 continues to satisfy. The last 2 weeks I was in town she moved into the hotel and we had morning, noon and night sessions. Talk about bang for the buck. Had it's drama but overall so satisfying compared to pros. But while SB1 is enamored with me she is a Nando 1 making her living via SA and SD4M so it's pretty messy when I am not around. Have 2 new gals on the hook to see another option but as SB1 says, NSA this ain't! Danger Will Robinson! Kinda fun living on the edge.

[QUOTE=EuroInCincy; 1426883]After todays m&g I am a just want to find out how many of you have similar in my eyes out of touch sb's.

The m&g went great and we agreed to go to the local casino's the day after tomorrow, and she mentions."Oh I won't play with less than $20, 000, that is not problem is it"

Am I out of touch, too cheap, or just normal in saying "sorry babe. Go find another one."[/QUOTE]Hey Euro, glad I'm not the only one that keeps running into these GPS-infected SBs. I got a good laugh out of the $20K request. Hard to believe she was actually serious, but you just never know. One SB I met a couple of weeks ago told me that her roommate was paid over $1000 in cash, and taken on a shopping trip to the local maul on her first date (no sex was ever actually discussed). The SD came into town from another metro area over 90 miles away just to take her out for the night. Probably cost him over $1500 when all was said and done, and he still went home without satisfaction.

The last 2 M&Gs for me were with a couple of early-20s HYCBs and they both demanded $500 per meeting. That's just outrageous to me, but someone must be paying it. Neither of them showed any sign of considering less, regardless of several attempts at negotiation. One told me that she would feel like a cheap prostitute for anything less.

I'm meeting someone fairly regular now for $150 per meet, but it probably won't last much longer if I can find a suitable ATF for $200 or less. So put me right there in that "cheap" category if you want to. As long as there are chumps out there willing to dish out $1500 for a night of shopping without sex, I will just have to learn to enjoy the label.

Fellow practitioners in the art of SB's, I could use some help. Some Time ago I posted my success rate with SD4Me; lately I've been trolling on SA while keeping a UTR on the side. Here is where I stand, and where I need help:

SB1: meet and greet last week. Mid-20's, cute, almost tomboyish, recent arrival to this area. Went well, after some difficulty arranging. Obvious money problems, but just started a new job in the local tourist industry. Yesterday, in discussing our next meeting, gave strong hints about needing sugar to fix her new motorcycle she needs for her job. As part of my due diligence, a google image search turned up a mug shot from her previous residence. For a felony, involving theft. Not sure she was convicted of a felony (checking on it) , as I doubt she would be working where she is with a felony conviction. With a definite number out there for "assistance" and only a mod-ay meeting scheduled (as in, no FC time planned as of now) and a history, what do I do with SB1?

SB2: met her a couple of weeks ago. 1, Hispanic from Texas, working in restaurant. Which means she's always trying to get me to meet her after work at 10pm or so for drinks, which isn't happening; I couldn't stay awake even if I could legit get out that time of night! Anyway, we both have a free evening Thursday so I proposed last wek we meet. When she finally responded last night, she said she had plans unless I had a better offer; when I said I didn't know where the bidding was, she said a guy was taking her for "just dinner" and giving her $300. I told her I'd buy dessert and drinks later that night of it was "just dinner", to which she responded she would trade him for me if I offered $200. When I said that sound good, she said "how about between 5 and 8pm?" Couple things: haven't found her on other sites, but she sounds like a pro, especially putting time constraints like that? Facebook if it's true indicates she's got 2 kids and a fiancé, but she's never mentioned either in conversation / text (and she wouldn't if she's smart) ; constantly talking about needing new phone, more minutes, needing sugar, not sleeping with guys for money. But then will text out of the blue at midnight on weekends saying come out, I want to screw your brains out! She's cute, but young, immature, crazy? I know "don't stick your pecker in crazy" but. Suggestions?

Thanks, and I've got a couple more I'm still fishing I'll post on in the future.

Heya Euro!

You had an encounter with the dreaded Golden Pussy.the anathema of us hard working not obcenely wealthy SDs. You should run, not walk from this user as quickly as possible. These SBs probably use the $$$$ ploy as a screening tool as well, so it might be worth calling her bluff and laying down the law. If she is a genuine GPS then there is no hope. She will eat you up.

As a fun diversion you should ask her if she will sleep with you for $ 1 million. (This is an old joke but oh so true). When she says yes then ask her if $100 would be enough. When she acts insulted and asks you "what do you think I am?" You can say that we both know what she is, we are just negotiating price.

Brothers & Sister,

I just had to share. Positive interaction with a Pot SB lead to this response once after she asked the amount of my budget for my SBs.

"Here in the sugar world the purpose of an SD SB relationship is to be able to have something you normally would not. Not to say its always the case but, most of the time I have been approached by men who knew I was out of their league. This is fantasy not regular dating so it's not the same. I'm looking for an SD who has a need for great company, fun times enjoying the city and great sex. I am all about pleasure for both parties! I am sure our time would be what you are missing. I imagine we would meet up when it was best for both and play it by ear. I do however want to establish that we both have lives outside of our arrangement and we need to respect that. I do agree of I'm not being taken care of I would not even go through with the arrangement. I believe an allowance of 2k direct deposited would be suitable for my needs. If you don't have an issue with this so far lets move forward."

EuroInCincy I feel your pain.

SubCmdr out

Subcmdr and Euro, I feel your pain. I've had a couple of potentials vanish when our financial expectations couldn't be reconciled. In each case, I was lucky that the communications hadn't progressed beyond email, so I wasn't out much time or any cash. (I should note that I try to avoid financial conversations before meeting, but some SBs go there almost immediately.)

I say more power to a girl who can find a guy to give her what amounts to a decent salary at a full time job. I just think, based on my reading here and elsewhere, that such guys are few and far between.

As for being "out of your league," it sounds like the lady has bigger issues than simple GPS. Just my non-mental health professional opinion.

In other news, SB3 has changed the location of our first interview tonight from her place to a neutral location. I'm not sure what precipitated the change, but alas, it appears there'll be no indoor fun this evening.

Regards,

Joe

[QUOTE=SubCmdr; 1427408]Brothers & Sister,

EuroInCincy I feel your pain.

SubCmdr out[/QUOTE]Thank you fellow warrior, but us who served in mounted regiments with a history as long as the us independence, were educated on an early age to put on the kevlar underwear under the silk clothing, so in case the silk would tear from the arrows, the kevlar is our final barrier.

And your quoted reply is a very good and normal response, thank you oh underwater lurker.

To RRGuy Advice from the Cmdr on SB1.

After referring to the SBAM (SB Assault Manuel). The following battle plan is recommended. After performing throughout recon (which you appear to have done). Perform a maneuver that leaves you behind the target. Develop a firing solution. Then attack from the back! Put your WPAD (Weapon of Pussy & Ass Destruction) on target. Release multiple times for full effect. Then dive. Turn hard to port. Make a speed run along the bottom. Maneuver through the underwater canyons. Emerge from the other side and rig for silent running. Make several clearing turns to insure she is not in your wake. Resume patrol.

Warning: The thrill and excitement of this assault can be addictive. This tactic is only to be used when you a certain you can resist the urge to return for additional attacks.

SubCmdr Out

[QUOTE=Rrguy; 1427375]SB1: meet and greet last week. Mid-20's, cute, gave strong hints about needing sugar to fix her new motorcycle>>>>> turned up a mug shot from her previous res. Felony, involving theft. , what do I do with SB1?

SB2: but she sounds like a pro, especially putting time constraints like that? Facebook if it's true indicates she's got 2 kids and a fiancé, but she's never mentioned either in conversation / text (and she wouldn't if she's smart) ; constantly talking about needing new phone, more minutes, needing sugar, not sleeping with guys for money.

Thanks, and I've got a couple more I'm still fishing I'll post on in the future.[/QUOTE]Welcome Rrguy.

SB1. I'd ditch her NOW. The advance to fix the MC, even if she is as trustworthy as you and I, shouldn't be happening. This has "bad result" written all over it, IMO. There are just too many out there to play that game. I'd just tell her that this doesn't fit your gameplan.

SB2:. She may be a pro, but if she is you should be able to locate her past. If so, you decide. Time constraints, hard to guess on this, maybe just needing to take care of those 2 kids and juggle sitter, etc. Didn't mention her S. O. ; Good. There are probably a lot of things you haven't mentioned to her too, hopefully. Talking about needing a phone, minutes, etc. Chances are this may be her way of negotiating, keeping you from offering her 40 bucks <smile>, or that she just isn't smooth at doing so another way yet, so I would ignore these comments for now. If the pro thing isn't a deal killer, go get-u-some.

Good luck with the others too.

Rrguy, welcome to the sugar bowl. It sounds to me like both these girls are high drama / maintainence and I would try to stick with higher quality girls. These would be employed and / or in school who don't need $$, but use funds for extra things. These two sound like low brows. Plus, if #2 will trade her other date for you she is either lying or has no conscience and will eventually do the same to you.

Gentlemen,

I have already obtained Mandy's input on this question, so wanted to put it to the brotherhood at large. For those of you with an ATF, or a steady SB, how often do you communicate with her about things other than a calisthenics class appointment? Or in fact, do you at all? And how often do they reach out with a "touch-base" to you?

I ask because I may be way in the deep end with my ATF in terms of contacting her during our downtimes. Mandy assures me this is so, and I am not doubting her, just would like additional input.

Thanking you in advance,

Scott

My SB of 1 year and I see each other 2 nights / week for an overnight. She has been slow to communicate but of late she calls 2 or 3 nights / week in between visits and we text usually daily. I demand this of her since I want that irl gf sensation. Our contact is short and sweet. She does not like to chat and calls are usually 5 minutes and texts one liners. This is how I like it.

What is the correct frequency? It depends on what your goals are re: the relationship. Mandy has been successful seeing multiple SDs and a husband and seems to be happy doing things that way. I am not in favor of multiple sbs or sds in our relationship so I work toward a more intense interaction. I have been through my multifucking phase and am no in a monogamous one.

[QUOTE=F Scott; 1427684]Gentlemen,

I have already obtained Mandy's input on this question, so wanted to put it to the brotherhood at large. For those of you with an ATF, or a steady SB, how often do you communicate with her about things other than a calisthenics class appointment? Or in fact, do you at all? And how often do they reach out with a "touch-base" to you?

I ask because I may be way in the deep end with my ATF in terms of contacting her during our downtimes. Mandy assures me this is so, and I am not doubting her, just would like additional input.

Thanking you in advance,

Scott[/QUOTE]I have been in this situation with my ATF to two different degrees. In general, I am not opposed to the occasional text conversation or brief phone chat. As Hernando said, it gives that IRL GFE that many of us seek. But, as your question suggests, Scott, there is a line past which it becomes less GFE and more like you have an actual girlfriend. Call it what you want--an affair, etc.--but be prepared for things to get messy.

In my case, my ATF and I hit it off very well and very quickly. Within two months, I was seeing her multiple times a week, and rarely a day passed when we didn't talk for at least a little while on the phone. I think I've said this before, but: To her credit, she told me we had to stop after about a month. She knew I did not want to leave my wife, and she was in no position to have a full time boyfriend. Since then, we've developed a very casual, once-a-week-or-so type of relationship. I may text her from time to time (never more than once a week beyond when I've already seen her), and she will rarely text me. We almost never speak on the phone. This particular system, which I admit we stumbled on by accident, helps remind both of us that we're only in this for NSA fun.

Only you know where that line is. I suspect, based on your question, that you feel you have crossed it. I don't judge either way, but if you have crossed it, be prepared for your current personal life to eventually become a mess, or your life with your ATF to become a mess, or both. I was lucky that I was able to recover before I hit bottom, and I suffered only a few emotional bruises, which were (lucky for me) unnoticeable to my friends and family. I hope that I can avoid a similar mistake in the future.

If you want to look at this from purely a statistical standpoint, remember that the more she texts, e-mails, or calls you, the more opportunity there is for your communications to be discovered by someone else. However vigilant we all may be about deleting texts, guarding passwords, or using a hobby phone or scrubbing the call log on our personal phone, we all will eventually forget to do something. Call it the Tiger Woods paradox (in fact, I think someone here already has). The fewer the communications, the easier it is to secure the information.

Regards,

Joe

Having only recently completed my reading this thread from oldest to newest, I know the members have discussed and analyzed in detail the topic of sugar negotiations. I had a first interview today, however, that causes me to revisit this issue.

The lady in question, SB3, is beautiful, funny, and a joy to be with. We were able to meet only briefly in a public place, so I do not yet know how the physical chemistry will develop. She was not shy, however, about noting that she has done this before, and I know, based on my preliminary research, that she also dabbles in the professional leagues. (She did not admit this to me, but I did not ask, either.) Needless to say, I'd like to get to know her better.

Having had season tickets in a few different leagues now, I know what the going salary is for a major leaguer. During our meeting, though, she noted that her last boyfriend bought her a car, a condo, and paid her junior college tuition. She said he was a millionaire, although this all could be, as we in the legal profession like to say, "mere puffery."

Specific remuneration amounts did not arise during our conversation, but I was firm in pointing out that I am not a millionaire, nor can I afford to live like one. I think she got the point, and she was direct that we should meet again soon. I will have to set my limits before then, lest I loose my senses (and my bank account balance).

What methods of self control work best when you know your limits, but the little brain keeps screaming, "Give her what she wants! She's gorgeous, and I haven't seen any action in a week!"?

In the end, I guess it's more of a rhetorical question, as we just had the GPS discussion earlier today. Better to move on than to lose more than you can afford. I'll keep you posted as we continue the negotiations.

Regards,

Joe

[QUOTE=JoesParty; 1427808]I had a first interview today.

The lady in question, SB3, is beautiful, funny, and a joy to be with. During our meeting, though, she noted that her last boyfriend bought her a car, a condo, and paid her junior college tuition. She said he was a millionaire, although this all could be, as we in the legal profession like to say,"mere puffery."

Specific remuneration amounts did not arise during our conversation, but I was firm in pointing out that I am not a millionaire, nor can I afford to live like one. I think she got the point, and she was direct that we should meet again soon. I will have to set my limits before then, lest I loose my senses (and my bank account balance).

In the end, I guess it's more of a rhetorical question, as we just had the GPS discussion earlier today. Better to move on than to lose more than you can afford.

Regards,

Joe[/QUOTE]Joe,

I want to thank you for your considered response to my question, but also to respond to your dilemma as well. As all of us who have been at this a while know intellectually but from time to time have a hard time remembering: there are plenty of fish in the sea. She will not be your only bite; keep fishing. Babies can say whatever they want, it doesn't make it true.

The fact that she so quickly backed off her story about the gazillionaire who bought her a private island and the natives who lived there to be her servants should be your clue that she, herself, was fishing too. When you go out and stand on the stream bank and cast into the sweet, calm pool just to the side of the riffle, the thought that's going through your head is not "I hope I hook an adequate fish." Same for the babies, I believe. She was hoping to hook a whale, and why not? They have their agenda, as do we.

So now, in my opinion, the ball is in your court. Do you want to see her again, and if so, for how long? I believe it is perfectly permissible to follow a thing through to a certain degree with no other agenda than "let's see where this goes." If something meaningful develops, great. If not, that's the way it is when you are playing in the Sugar Bowl.

Move on, my brother, but don't slam the door on this one. She may come around to a more reasonable, realistic mind-set, something she might in reality be ok with. A condo? Can't fault a baby for trying!

Scott

I know I'm a little late to the party but I had to chime in on the GPS conversation. I'm sure what I'm writing is going to make a few of you not so happy, and this doesn't apply to everyone. That being said, this is just one babies opinion.

Overall my comment is you get what you pay for, if your going into this world fairly low budget, don't expect a high quality ATF type sugar baby.

The realities of this world are yes, there guys out there willing to pay an allowance of 20k a month – although they are somewhat rare. Also, there guys willing to pay 1k. 5k a month and that's pretty standard. I would consider anything above that range is a bit high and anything below cheap.

Where the 20k girl was off is if she knows that's what she wants then she shouldn't be wasting both hers and your time talking to you if your net worth is under about 10m. Those are the only guys who are going to be able to afford what she wants. And, it's ok that she wants that – if she's patient, and she'll find it.

Now, in my mind it's not just about the allowance I'm given. I'm able to add up what a night out costs, hotel, maybe a present and then the allowance. To share personal info, I'd guess that in total Memories probably spends around $2500. $3000 a month on me and I see him once a week.

Now, that may be too high for some of you and if so just embrace that. Learn to have the budget discussion first so you know what she wants before investing a lot of time. For those hoping to spend a lower amount, it may take you a bit longer to find someone. The thing about this world is the more you're willing to spend the faster you'll get to at least meet the babies who might be what you're looking for. Of course, there's always the time it takes to find the one you actually connect with.

Now, there is another reason I have 1k as a starting point for the sugar world. Essentially, if you can't pay over that curve then a cost / return analysis shows that it would be better to be with an escort. So, if an escort costs $250 / hour. $1000 would be 4 dates. In the sugar world a $1000 allowance could get you 4 overnight dates. If you find an SB who is ok with P2P then she typically will want between $200-$500 / meet. In that respect, you're better off with an escort – same end result and you get it cheaper. So, in the larger scheme of things, it costs you less / meet to just get into that range.

Now, there was some discussion about paying less than that amount, but it also sounds like you're not ecstatic with the quality of the baby you're getting. Which brings me back to my original comment – you get what you pay for.

Oh! And, as a final thought. I just spent $100 in hair products, tanning and a new top so that I look cute and perfect for my date with memories tomorrow night. In total, I probably spend about $300 a month. Just wanted to point out that we have costs too.

Thanks for reading!

Mandy

Joe,

My input is don't negotiate. I swear I've hear the "My last SD did this" so fucking much they must teach it in a SB school somewhere. Have her put a hard number on her sugar requirement. Then you can contemplate the figure in the cool comfort of where you are reading her message. If her number is outside of your comfort zone you can always give a counter offer. But, if she feels that she has lost the negotiation you might hit it once, but she is unlikely to want to let you hit it again. And if she continues to take the lower amount, then she was playing you for a sucker from the beginning. Release your WPAD. Tear that SB pussy up. And make her put in some work!

Just remember my advice may only be as good as what you paid for it. LOL!

SubCmdr Out

SbabyBlog,

I love you to death baby, but I think you are a little off on this one. You are using the wrong metric. Cost per orgasm (CPO) is the proper measurement. CPO for an escort is higher. You are not going to find a escort for a $250 overnight. Most SB's even at the shallow end of the sugar bowl are going to spend 2. 4 hours with you for each visit even if you don't over night with them. You get to pound that thing into the mattress as much as you can during that time period. So, it would be $250 / hour to bust with an escort once maybe twice if she is generous. Or, $250 for 2. 4 hours with an SB and bust all you like. And if you happen to be into the intangible of GFE, well like the commercial says "priceless".

CPO (Escort) = $250.

CPO (SB) = $83. 33. $125. 00.

The Cmdr be runnin dem digits. Cause his pockets ain't fat.

SubCmdr Out

[QUOTE=F Scott; 1427684]Gentlemen,

I have already obtained Mandy's input on this question, so wanted to put it to the brotherhood at large. For those of you with an ATF, or a steady SB, how often do you communicate with her about things other than a calisthenics class appointment? Or in fact, do you at all? And how often do they reach out with a "touch-base" to you?

I ask because I may be way in the deep end with my ATF in terms of contacting her during our downtimes. Mandy assures me this is so, and I am not doubting her, just would like additional input.

Thanking you in advance,

Scott[/QUOTE]Hi Scott,

First, thanks for the welcome to the board and to the others that have welcomed me as well. As I mentioned my SB / SD relationship of a year ended in January. I think one of the reasons was our differing expectations of communications. As things progressed and we became closer and closer I wanted more communication than she was able to give. Although the times we were together were pretty much perfect, our only disagreements came over lack of communication to the point of her promising to see me or call or text, and then blowing me off entirely and not even recognizing it afterward. My wife did find out. We're now divorced. The ultimate came when my SB ended our relationship without closure, just stopped communicating with me enitrely. Sooo, not to be too much of a downer, but that can be the result when feelings and communication desires get out of hand. On the bright side, I'm now dusting myself off and on the hunt for a new SB.

Thanks again for the welcome and I'm happy to be part of the group!

[QUOTE=Atldrummer]My wife did find out. We're now divorced. The ultimate came when my SB ended our relationship without closure, just stopped communicating with me enitrely. Sooo, not to be too much of a downer, but that can be the result when feelings and communication desires get out of hand. On the bright side, I'm now dusting myself off and on the hunt for a new SB.[/QUOTE]If you don't mind my asking, what gave you away to the warden. If the subject is just too taboo to discuss on this board, let me know and I will understand, but we are all on here to learn techniques to make us successful in the SB adventures and keep each other out of trouble. Although you are relatively new to the board, you have some valuable information that could ultimately be the biggest help of all. By my calculations, if my warden found out about my hobby, it would likely cost me several hundred thousand dollars by the time the divorce was settled. So any information I can gather on how best to stay out of trouble is REAL valuable to me. If you don't mind sharing, I suspect the brotherhood here would be real interested in hearing your story.

Alias

I haven't participated here in a while as I've been conserving financially and not SB-ing, but I have watched with approval how the ranks here have grown and enjoyed immensely the addition Mandy has brought to the group. Good show, lady and gentlemen!

The financial aspects of this have always been an interesting subject, as has the way we and the babies dance around the issue. I'm reminded of two old racer's adages about costs: "Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?", and "The best way to make a small fortune doing this is to start with a big one." Some of us cannot afford $1000 / month, much less $20K / month; we can find a SB that we *can* afford, but it usually means giving up something. She may not be quite the HYB we hoped for, maybe she's a little bit older MILF, or she might even be young, athletic and beautiful but she has more than her share of drama and problems, or some combo of these. Keeping our expectations and requirements realistic to our budget is the hardest thing we do.

I disagree w / SubCmdr that it's all about CPO, as there are things I seek in a SB, such as a level of friendship, genuine interest in me as a person rather than merely a money source, that I do not expect in an escort (tho' I have found it in a couple of the escorts I've known.) At a minimum, those extra considerations need to be factored into the cost. But I understand how some might see it as a neat CPO equation.

" If you want to look at this from purely a statistical standpoint, remember that the more she texts, e-mails, or calls you, the more opportunity there is for your communications to be discovered by someone else "

Joe speaks the truth and the more involved I find myself getting with my SB the higher the risk. As we all know, or can imagine, Finding an excuse to be away from home for an overnight is a far cry from slipping an hour with an escort into a busy day.

Escorts bring their own brand of risk, what with LE waiting to pop you at a sting operation, to STD, blackmail, etc. In the end it depends on how much of a GFE you want to have, and a SB / GF who shares monogamy with you is as good as it gets short of a real life GF.

Altdrummer suffered the ultimate penalty in discovery and subsequent divorce. I'm sorry for the pain and suffering. However, I have to wonder if in some way, those of us who play in this arena are basically not happy with our home lives, otherwise we wouldn't be here. I find it interesting that our brother drummer is looking for a SB and not an IRL GF. Perhaps a series of SBs are easier than dealing with a wife.

Thought for another day. Is marriage a viable institution? Mandy (I reference again) seems to have arrived at an ideal compromise. She seems to have her cake and eat it as well IMHO. I would love to hear some opinions about that.

[QUOTE=SubCmdr;1427962]I love you to death baby, but I think you are a little off on this one.[/QUOTE]Sorry, my writing late in the evening after working all day meant I wasn't able to articulate better what I meant there. Yes, in your short term CPO an SB will always be less expensive. But unless you're willing to get into the 1k mark, you'll not find that consistent, no-drama, ATF type which most of you seem to want. If you can't afford that, then you would be better off with an escort once or twice a month because it's certainly much less time consuming to find one of them vs. The e-mail, m&g process, that occurs just to get a baby one time. If you can afford that, then you should be able to reasonably expect that you will eventually find a decent baby that you'll form a longer relationship with.

I hate to be blunt in pointing this out, but the sugar world isn't for the cheep guy. While I agree the girls out there requesting condos, exorbitant allowances and such have a way overinflated ego which should give you more reason to run than what it is that she's requesting, I think the guys "negotiating to death and low & balling" a girl are giving the guys in the sugar world a negative perception.

As always, it's just one babies perspective though.

Mandy

[QUOTE=Hernando;1427715]I demand this of her since I want that irl gf sensation.[/QUOTE]I just wanted to explain that the main reason I told Scott he was wrong was because he was upset when she wasn't responding to him. But, given his circumstances with "the bat phone" he can't always respond to her when she texts. I completely believe that what's good for one is good for the other so if you can't participate in an "instant communication relationship" you shouldn't expect her to jump and respond to your text immediately either.

Now, I do typically text a couple times throughout the day with both Memories and The Doctor. I'll admit some mornings I shake my head at the reality of texting my husband good morning (he's at work by the time I wake up) , then sending a text to The Doctor and then Memories. Usually, if I don't text Memories by around 10, he'll send me a good morning text. Right now he's doing a lot of reading on one of the topics I'm studying in school, so this is generally part of the conversation stream. He's reading the more pop-culture executive written business books whereas I've read all the research and theory they were based on.

The Doctor rarely initiates texting with me, but will eventually respond to mine. So, the other morning when very early I received a "Good morning sweetie I hope you have a great day" text from him, well it made me smile all day.

I'm also an extremely connected person with the benefit of a very relaxed work environment. The only times I am really completely unreachable via my phone are when I'm in class. But, even then you can find me on twitter, yahoo I'm or email. When I was working, texts could go hours before I responded and then that required me remembering that I hadn't already responded. I had a boyfriend then who got upset by this. The more he whined about it, the more of a "chore" it became for me to answer him. Which actually became the impetus for ignoring his texts or calls and well you can guess we'd didn't last much longer than that.

Nando is right, every relationship is different where this is concerned. I think it's best to discuss what you want up front but realize it's not fair to ask something of someone that you can't reciprocate.

Mandy

[QUOTE=SbabyBlog;1428338]I hate to be blunt in pointing this out, but the sugar world isn't for the cheep guy.[/QUOTE]It seems like we have gone intellectual up in here. What happened to the wild and crazy stories of tearing the pussy up?

I know this has been debated before and will be continued to be until the end of time. The sugar world is simply a marketing pitch. An arms length review of the matter shows it to be simply another transactional sexual relationship.

I saw an interview with a sugar daddy and he said it best. 'It is only a matter of determining how long the arrangement has to be before society sanctions it. Make an arrangement for an hour (bad). Make an arrangement for a lifetime (good). '

One baby's 'cheap' is another baby's economic lifeline. Let's take a car for example: You can buy Caddie or a Chevy. Both are going to get your where you need to go. You can also buy a McLaren MP4-12c. Now you are in an entirely different league. At that point you are buying more than just a car. It is an engineering work of art. If I had the money, I'd pay the 229K they want for it.

If you are going to define the sugar world by the price tag you put on the 'party favors' then I think it does a disservice to the rest of us that are not 1%ers. Now I am not one to hate on those SD's that can roll large and have fat pockets. And the SB's that are bringing the 'party favors' with the Tiffany label should make their SD's pay up for sure. But please show me another area of economic endeavor where you pay an amateur more than a professional.

So maybe I don't get it. But until I do I'm going to stay just under the surface and keep patrolling in shallow waters. I'll leave the deep water patrols to the big boomers out there. The Cmdr knows his limitations.

SubCmdr Out

I came from the escort world. If you want a primer on not getting caught peruse some threads on those boards. I was always careful, but not paranoid. I had a separate Yahoo email for my extracurricular activities. I was fortunate that my business is using computers, so I always had my own, my wife had her own, never the twain met. Even so I religiously signed out of my Yahoo mail. With the escorts all communications happened using the Yahoo account or phone at my initiation. I also was lucky that I'm self employed so my activities happened during the day while my wife was at work, plus my business finances were separate from the household finances. There really wasn't much chance of getting caught. Most guys also have separate "hobby" phones to protect their number, etc. That always seemed more dangerous. What if you wife finds out you have a secret phone?

Until the SB I really didn't text much at all. With her it started only text me between 9am & 5pm. Once communications became an issue I said text anytime and set my phone to just show the number, not the message and kept it on vibrate. It was new technology that got me. I bought an iPad. During December wife and I were traveling with just the iPad. One morning I thought I'd signed out of my Yahoo mail and I hadn't. Now SB and I really didn't email at all, BUT, stupid thing #1 I never deleted all of my previous escort related emails. My wife found those. That of course led her to my phone (which wasn't locked) and stupid thing #2, I never deleted my SB text stream. That was it. On some level I think I probably wanted to be caught.

To Hernando's point, I wouldn't have been seeing escorts or starting a SB relationship if things were great at home. Here's one thing, the escort thing was easy to manage: Get the urge, make the appointment, do the deed, move on. The SB relationship vastly overcomplicated things. With the escorts it was during the day, during the week. Lies of omission. With the SB it got to the point where I was actively having night and weekend "meetings" to get away. Active lies, plus I was falling in love with my SB.

I can remember after things blew up with my ex her saying "You seem relieved that it's out in the open." She was sooo right! As to my looking for an SB relationship rather than RLGF, two reasons. Shallow reason, I'm now used to spending time with a hot 23 yr old woman. I'm not that ugly or out of shape, and I really am a really nice guy, but still would have no chance of landing that type of gal in RL. At least not as efficiently as using the SD sites. The serious reason, I've deeply hurt a very decent, wonderful woman. My ex has been nothing but exceptionally fair during the entire divorce. I've also had my heart broken by my SB. She's still the first thing I think of every morning and last thing I think of every night. I'm not in a position emotionally to even attempt a RL relationship. I'm not sure I ever will be. I've come to the conclusion I just may not be cut out for it. So, for now the SB thing seems to be the way to go.

Enough said for now. Thanks for listening!

Atldrummer

[QUOTE=Atldrummer; 1428703]Enough said for now. Thanks for listening!

Atldrummer[/QUOTE]Thanks for the honest account of what went wrong AtlDrummer. I saw a lot of similarities between to two of us and know I am playing with fire in my current situation. Maybe I am in that "wanting to get caught" mode myself. My wife and I usually use totally separate computer equipment, but the smart phone technology these days gets kind of scary. I have my phone on vibrate all the time when at home, but eventually I need to lay it down if only for a few minutes. She could easily pick it up and see the txt message up on the screen. I have come back to the phone more than once recently to see suggestive messages clearly on the screen, even in lock down mode. I use google message service and haven't found a way to set it so only the number shows up instead of the whole txt.

I am real careful with my email account though. It would not be good if my wife ever saw some of the email history in that account.

It does sound to me like you have the right idea about continuing to play in the SB world rather than a real GF, at least for now.

Again, thanks for the response. It is always helpful to learn from others, and I do see several things I need to change immediately after reading your response.

Alias

AltDrummer

THanks for the heartfelt explanation of your situation. I too can identify with your circumstances and find myself in the same boat without the discovery drama so far. I am sorry for opening my wife up to this potential life changing experience but a SB does change the playing field tremendously. Escorts are certainly NSA to the max. SBs are not regardless of how you manage it. It is difficult to see someone regularly without developing feelings. I know some of us can stick to their guns in keeping SBs NSA but it is sure hard, and it depends on the quality of SB as well. If you have someone who is "your kind of girl" and offers more than raw sex then you can be vulnerable. I've had prior SBs who I would not be seen with in public on a bet but provided sexual services in a satisfying way.

It looks like a lot of us are in that same boat, Alias and Scott to name two others.

SubCmdr, I agree that everyone has their "number". There are several guys here who have had success with staggeringly low donations which have been well below the $1000 mark. So keep at it if your current patrol is successful. Nando

To add to some of the previous posts about amounts, when we started I was giving my SB $900 a month as allowance. After a few months I upped it to $1200. This was for 4-6 meetings a month. Towards the end it was pretty much 2-3 times a week (although I did travel a lot). The strange thing was that at some point the sex / social time kind of flipped from lots of sex, a little social to more social not as much sex. To be honest I didn't really care, I just enjoyed spending time with her. I don't really think you're going to find quality for under $1k a month and I think I was very fortunate to find what I did for that amount.

Drummer

Drum,

Thank you for sharing your painful story. It is indeed, as has been said, a lesson to us all, and I too saw myself in a number of your details. Several months back I put myself on voluntary lock-down because my behavior was getting way out of control, and I also questioned whether I secretly wanted to get caught. After a month or so of no babies whatsoever, I returned to the game in a much better place, head-wise.

Still, your comment about getting tripped up by technology is an apt one. Although I keep a dedicated sugar phone, the "bat phone" as I call it, I still need to keep track of it and remember to put it back in its hiding place when not in use. The fact that it is not always accessible, and thus I can not always answer texts or calls when they come in, has been the source of the only fights I have had with my ATF, but I still think that safety trumps accessibility.

As for emails, I have a separate email account expressly for baby communications, but again there is always the danger of leaving the browser open. If married, there really is no way to pursue this engaging pastime without assuming a certain amount of risk. I'm sorry things happened for you the way they did, but want to say again how much I appreciate your sharing this with us.

I am going to pray to the god of Sugar Babies that she send you someone fantastic who will rock your world and make your toes curl, my brother.

Peace,

Scott

Friends,

I am scheduled for a lesson tomorrow with Polo, and I am very excited to say the least. It has been almost two weeks, I think, since I last saw all her freckles, and I feel I need to count them carefully tomorrow to make sure they are all still there.

She has promised me something interesting again, but will not tell me what it is. I am guessing it will not be additional spanking lessons, as I feel I have a handle on that, so perhaps it is something new for me to enjoy? I am daydreaming about her blue eyes and thick red hair, as is Scottie.

In any event, my enthusiasm is somewhat tempered by the fact that she only has a little under two hours to devote to the Pleasure Dome. Some nonsense about her kids and their school. Whatever! (Just kidding here, Mandy)

I will report back if modesty allows.

Scott

All this talk of hiding our activities from the warden has refreshed a question I've long had about this: how does one hide the expenditures?

I've been divorced for several years, but I did the escort thing while I was married. My ex was the money manager in the family, and I constantly scrimped and saved and squirreled away my pocket money to afford the occasional playdate without it showing up in the family finances. Some of you, like Atldrummer, can hide the expense in your business or other ways, but there seems to always be the threat that no matter how well you isolate it, come a nasty divorce battle the ex-to-be has the lawyer discover all that money and fight for it. And while I know some wives are mostly oblivious to the finances, even those women seem to have a sense for when the family cash flow changes. And the sense I get from the posts here is that most guys seem to spend enough on their SB pursuits to make a visible ding in the cashflow unless careful steps are taken.

I'd love to hear from the other members about their ideas on the subject and their techniques for keeping the money issues from the warden.

Thanks!

[QUOTE=SbabyBlog; 1428338]Sorry, my writing late in the evening after working all day meant I wasn't able to articulate better what I meant there. Yes, in your short term CPO an SB will always be less expensive. But unless you're willing to get into the 1k mark, you'll not find that consistent, no-drama, ATF type which most of you seem to want. If you can't afford that, then you would be better off with an escort once or twice a month because it's certainly much less time consuming to find one of them vs. The e-mail, m&g process, that occurs just to get a baby one time. If you can afford that, then you should be able to reasonably expect that you will eventually find a decent baby that you'll form a longer relationship with.

I hate to be blunt in pointing this out, but the sugar world isn't for the cheep guy. While I agree the girls out there requesting condos, exorbitant allowances and such have a way overinflated ego which should give you more reason to run than what it is that she's requesting, I think the guys "negotiating to death and low & balling" a girl are giving the guys in the sugar world a negative perception.

As always, it's just one babies perspective though.

Mandy[/QUOTE]Not to come off like Mr. Spock, but you are taking a line of reasoning that is totally illogical. Specifically, you are trying to argue from the specific (your own case) to the general (SB's in general) , which never works. Would it not be better to acknowledge that each SB and SD is an individual, and that their requirements are unique? So what can be reasoned and / or assumed? Are the odds that a former model will become a SB in return for having the occasional bill paid for her low? Of course, but that's not in question. That said, there are plenty of very attractive young women who would probably be more than willing to be 'extra friendly' with a man in return for him getting her out from under a looming payment problem. If the two can formalise such a relationship, then they've gotten to the SD / SB stage, haven't they? So at the end of the day, each SB is going to have her own set of requirements for what she wants, and what she's willing to put into such a 'relationship. At the same time, every SD is going to have their own list of what they'd like and what they're willing to commit financially to such a relationship. Places is that not a more logical conclusion to be reached from the facts at hand?

There certainly has been a lot of excellent discussion on various topics, and I hope it continues. On the money front, I'm afraid I don't have a lot to offer. I'm in the lucky position of having a spouse who takes little interest in the specifics of the family finances. As long as I keep us in the black each month, she doesn't seem to care. Still, the observation is true that even an uninterested spouse seems to sense when cash flows change. I've had to subtly alter my behavior from time to time to avoid establishing noticeable patterns re: cash withdraws. And I try to avoid credit card use for sugar-related activities for the obvious reason that a credit card leaves more of a paper trail. In the end, though, any competent accountant could figure out what's going on even in a cash-only world. I understand that risk and don't have easy answers to minimize it except to say that extreme caution and attention to detail is key. As we've learned in recent posts, we tend to trip up when we get too comfortable and / or let down our guard.

In other news, but not to brag, I am happy to report that my ATF has returned from vacation, and we had a spirited, if shorter than normal, evening together yesterday. In return for my ability to "help her out a little" recently by advancing some funds (something I would NEVER have done except for the fact we've known each other a year now and I really do trust her) , she has planned a special night for us next week. I'm leaving work early, we're getting a room at a nice place on the river, and there'll be dinner, drinks, and plenty of our favorite activities. All I'm responsible for is making the reservations and paying for the accommodations. I hope I haven't jinxed it, but I am already bursting with excitement.

Finally, on other fronts, I continue to develop additional promising leads. I have no intent to replace my favorite, but I expect she'll be moving out of state by the end of the year. I've received some nice unsolicited contacts from SA and hope to meet them soon. The biggest problem is finding the time. I say this to reinforce the idea that there really are plenty of fish in the sea; it just takes some work to find the right one.

Have a nice weekend, everyone. I'm off to Chicago for a little R&R.

Regards,

Joe