Massage Parlor Reports

Visited for the 1st time last Saturday late afternoon. Started with a gal, Megan? Decent rub, zero tease. 30-40 min into the session, another gal, Jennifer came in and also started to massage me while the 2 ladies conversed in Chinese. 5 min later, Megan leaves and Jennifer takes over, she gives a lot of tease then comes the flip. My hands are all over her as she starts oiling up Mr Happy. I try going under the bra, but she pulls away only to lift it up entirely off her breasts. Comes back and gives a slow massage, I'm all over these tits, her nipples even hardened quite a bit. I'm nearing the time to pop and she increased speed to make it an intense release. At the start, I was the only hobbyist there, but by the time I left 2 more had entered.

[QUOTE=Howard5354;3413314]When you see that it is a different girl, especially a fatty, turn around and book. You at least got to pop, but I would not have given her a tip.[/QUOTE]Howard,

With these Asian ads, it will always be a different girl. It would be nice if it was just a near miss for once.

The only reason I tipped at all is because I know she will be back in China within a few weeks to be replaced with some other sorry gal who I will probably not have the will power to walk away from.

Baylander.

[QUOTE=BulletsNBrains;3414127]Visited for the 1st time last Saturday late afternoon. Started with a gal, Megan? Decent rub, zero tease. 30-40 min into the session, another gal, Jennifer came in and also started to massage me while the 2 ladies conversed in Chinese. 5 min later, Megan leaves and Jennifer takes over, she gives a lot of tease then comes the flip. My hands are all over her as she starts oiling up Mr Happy. I try going under the bra, but she pulls away only to lift it up entirely off her breasts. Comes back and gives a slow massage, I'm all over these tits, her nipples even hardened quite a bit. I'm nearing the time to pop and she increased speed to make it an intense release. At the start, I was the only hobbyist there, but by the time I left 2 more had entered.[/QUOTE]This is my favorite AMP at the moment. Always left happy. Only bad thing is that some of the MT's will hardly do any teasing. Jennifer will, but the older gals are hit and miss. I've never had any issues with the clock either. You can talk some of them into removing more than just the bra if you play your cards right. I've had some inconsistent success. Sometimes the same girl will shut me down the next time.

[QUOTE=BulletsNBrains;3414127]Visited for the 1st time last Saturday late afternoon. Started with a gal, Megan? Decent rub, zero tease. 30-40 min into the session, another gal, Jennifer came in and also started to massage me while the 2 ladies conversed in Chinese. 5 min later, Megan leaves and Jennifer takes over, she gives a lot of tease then comes the flip. My hands are all over her as she starts oiling up Mr Happy. I try going under the bra, but she pulls away only to lift it up entirely off her breasts. Comes back and gives a slow massage, I'm all over these tits, her nipples even hardened quite a bit. I'm nearing the time to pop and she increased speed to make it an intense release. At the start, I was the only hobbyist there, but by the time I left 2 more had entered.[/QUOTE]Which service did you pay for. Sounds like I may have to try it out.

[QUOTE=NoDamage;3414620]This is my favorite AMP at the moment. Always left happy. Only bad thing is that some of the MT's will hardly do any teasing. Jennifer will, but the older gals are hit and miss. I've never had any issues with the clock either. You can talk some of them into removing more than just the bra if you play your cards right. I've had some inconsistent success. Sometimes the same girl will shut me down the next time.[/QUOTE]I've had three good visits at this AMP right down the street from your favorite place. Very public parking (which I don't like), but I've been back because of "Joy" She's in her mid-upper 20's and very nice. Can have somewhat of a conversation and she understands English pretty well. She stays fully clothed and the first time she wanted to have me do SS only. But as she was pouring oil out of her hand on mr happy, I took her hand and started to stroke me. She didn't stop and finished me quite nicely. Each visit since she remembers me and is willing to finish without my help. Great massage and lots of teasing before the flip. Hour (6) plus tip totaled $1 so very reasonable. I wouldn't choose anyone else there but Joy.

[QUOTE=WiCubby;3417282]I've had three good visits at this AMP right down the street from your favorite place. Very public parking (which I don't like), but I've been back because of "Joy" She's in her mid-upper 20's and very nice. Can have somewhat of a conversation and she understands English pretty well. She stays fully clothed and the first time she wanted to have me do SS only. But as she was pouring oil out of her hand on mr happy, I took her hand and started to stroke me. She didn't stop and finished me quite nicely. Each visit since she remembers me and is willing to finish without my help. Great massage and lots of teasing before the flip. Hour (6) plus tip totaled $1 so very reasonable. I wouldn't choose anyone else there but Joy.[/QUOTE]Thanks for the info. I'll give it a shot next time. Younger MT's are not real common in Madison.

[QUOTE=Kermit61;3415761]Which service did you pay for. Sounds like I may have to try it out.[/QUOTE]This basically a standard rub and tug AMP. $40/30 min, $60/60 min. My tip was. 4.

OK. I figured out which AMP gave me scabies so I have not been back. I have gone to two places since then to report on. And yes, my scabies is gone.

King Street Sun Prairie. Self serve in the past with rare exception. The main woman running the place has always been legit. Now business must be slow since she has opened her menu. Got no tease but on the flip got a nice but hurried finish. SHe definitely was not into it, just doing it to pay the bills. She does have really large breasts (larger in hand than appearance) and was fine with me touching them above clothes. I had a frank talk with her since she speaks English well, and she has lost a ton of business in the last year and doesn't even have enough business for one worker. She is simply doing what she can to keep customers happy. Her breasts are really huge but she was so disconnected it really didn't seem like that great of an experience. I feel bad for her really.

Odana road in back of strip mall. **17. Been there twice. First time no tease, encourage self serve, I asked girl if she wanted to help she said no. Not going to try to talk her into it. Still gave her a nice tip since she gave a nice massage and seemed sweet. Second time, I saw Ginny or Jeanie. I could not tell and they don't give out business cards. Anyway, she is either really willing to please or we just clicked. I got her up on table with me and she started rubbing her pussy against my thigh through her yoga pants. She seemed to be getting into it so shirt came off and breasts were on the menu. I got her pants down around her knees but she seemed to want to stop there, Enough exposure for me to play, but no way that I could get too intimate with her. I ended up coming all over both of us. It was the hottest time I ever had at AMP in Madison. I tipped her $60 since this was above and beyond. Now here is the thing. At the end, when she was offering to clean me up with a towel, I said she was a princess and deserve to be treated like one. I know corny, but I was euphoric after that experience. I cleaned her up with a hot towel and turned the table on her a bit. She blushed and gave me a kiss on the cheek. YMMV but I do not get the impression that this was her routine. I must have got her on a good day. I think she was Korean but not sure.

[QUOTE=BooRadley72;3420613]OK. I figured out which AMP gave me scabies so I have not been back. I have gone to two places since then to report on. And yes, my scabies is gone.

[/QUOTE]Any clues on which AMP?

I guess not King Street or Odana behind mall.

Oriental on Grand Canyon:

Went there as a walk in hoping to get a nice youngish and decent looking female. Ended up with a 40+ year old Asian woman. She was okay looking small breasts and slim. She was fairly easy to understand. She gave me a good massage a d removed my towel immediately, small amount of teasing prior to the flip. On the flip she noticed my boner and gave a good HJ finish, she let me grab her ads. I didn't try for more. I may go back, just wish for younger and better looking specifically larger breasts.

Larson Beach McFarland.

Again went as walk in. 35+ year old woman that was slightly larger. Got a free table shower, massage was average and minimal teasing prior to flip. Once flipped she finished with a HJ too quickly. May visit again and hope for better.

Hoping someone can tell me how to get better looking therapists and a better more involved experience. I am new to this so I don't know the process. Willing to try other places as well.

Decided to give the place 1 block over from my favorite place a shot today, since I had some free time. Went and was greeted by a somewhat hostile mamma-san. Had to pay up front before going to the room. Got 1 hour for. 60, The MT was 'Anna'. I realize everyone here likes 'joy', but 'anna' was the only one available.

The Good.

Great massage. Hard pressure. She walked on my back and used her knees and feet to apply pressure. Just short of being painful. Sat on my thighs to rub my back after. Rubbed everything, head, neck, shoulders, arms, fingers, legs, toes, etc.

The Bad.

'Anna' is old, short and not pretty. No roaming allowed. Got my hand slapped. She was also clearly not in a good mood about something, kept sighing and muttering to herself. Got a phone call and spent 3-4 minutes on the phone while massaging me with one hand. Zero teasing. After the flip, finally allowed my hands to go wherever, but she stayed fully clothed. She indicated SS. I took her hand and guided it to mr happy. She grudgingly went ahead with it after I indicated I would tip her. She tapped out after a little bit and went to SS. Convinced to her go again, but once again she tapped out after a few minutes. Ended up being an assisted SS finish. She let me finger her through her pants during this. About the only positive.

Damage was $ including tip. Not happy about the ending, but it was a good massage. My back feels great. However, I'm not interested in SS so I don't know If I will go back. Would like to see joy, but don't want to get anna again.

[QUOTE=Dodge3223;3424026]Oriental on Grand Canyon:

Went there as a walk in hoping to get a nice youngish and decent looking female. Ended up with a 40+ year old Asian woman. She was okay looking small breasts and slim. She was fairly easy to understand. She gave me a good massage a d removed my towel immediately, small amount of teasing prior to the flip. On the flip she noticed my boner and gave a good HJ finish, she let me grab her ads. I didn't try for more. I may go back, just wish for younger and better looking specifically larger breasts.

Larson Beach McFarland.

Again went as walk in. 35+ year old woman that was slightly larger. Got a free table shower, massage was average and minimal teasing prior to flip. Once flipped she finished with a HJ too quickly. May visit again and hope for better.

Hoping someone can tell me how to get better looking therapists and a better more involved experience. I am new to this so I don't know the process. Willing to try other places as well.[/QUOTE]I tried to see her today and failed, but try seeing 'joy' at this place.

[URL]http://madison.backpage.com/TherapeuticMassage/great-open-free-table-shower-sweet-girls-608-509-9288-6665-odana-rd-madison/15676055[/URL]

However, your going to have to work at it to get more than SS on your first visit it sounds like. See the review I just posted; I didn't have a good time with the other MT.

Otherwise, the women here tend to give a good experience, but they aren't young and YMMV.

[URL]http://madison.backpage.com/TherapeuticMassage/wow-wow-wow-grand-opening-great-asain-massage/18329992[/URL]

Coming up soon. Its been a while, I realize I've been very spoiled down here in Orlando Florida and if I remember correctly the pickings are very slim up there there were two popular places not far from the capitol the Geisha House and I forgot the other one are those still open. A few years ago I saw an amazing masseuse named Tara one of the best I've seen but I haven't seen any recent reports on her the last time I was up I saw an amazing Nuru specialist granted it was $450 for 90 minutes but it was an amazing time one of the best Nuru experiences I've ever had any recommendations would be great from reading all the posts it seems like the scene has really died down there I just might have to take a two-week sabbatical while I'm in Madison and wait until I'm back in Orlando where do to the supply and demand the hobbyist is in Paradise.

I remember the name of the other parlor the Rising Sun does that still exist the last time I was there probably about 5 years ago connected with pretty hot brunette total GFE and the damage was 160 Mario's total. I'll be visiting Madison for 2 weeks shortly any recommendations appreciated.

Anyone notice the signs in the rooms at Grand Canyon? Now.

I know why nothing has been reviewed or talked about the ladies or their services.

The threats are posted in the rooms.

[QUOTE=Crandell76;3427910]Anyone notice the signs in the rooms at Grand Canyon? Now.

I know why nothing has been reviewed or talked about the ladies or their services.

The threats are posted in the rooms.[/QUOTE]Last time I was there about a month ago to see Crystal, she asked me straight out not to post a review. I can't remember whether there were already signs up at that time. They definitely want to stay a little under the radar, to the degree that's possible for a place that has become so popular.

[QUOTE=Crandell76;3427910]Anyone notice the signs in the rooms at Grand Canyon? Now.

I know why nothing has been reviewed or talked about the ladies or their services.

The threats are posted in the rooms.[/QUOTE]I haven't been able to find time to get back there for about 6 weeks. Can you fill me in on what the threats are that are posted?

On a side note, who all is there yet? I see ads for Brianna and Crystal, are there any others?

Thank you.

Just a question for the AMP regulars. It seems except for a couple of rare cases, none of the girls are the same as in the pics of the ads. That doesn't surprise me. Now I'm a fan of Asian gash as much as the next guy, but it seems like no one's getting very lucky with any sweet young girls, and from the reviews, the service sounds like it sucks from the women that are there. Is it really worth it vs going to GH, where you're pretty much going to leave happy?

[QUOTE=RawlSocket;3429021]Just a question for the AMP regulars. It seems except for a couple of rare cases, none of the girls are the same as in the pics of the ads. That doesn't surprise me. Now I'm a fan of Asian gash as much as the next guy, but it seems like no one's getting very lucky with any sweet young girls, and from the reviews, the service sounds like it sucks from the women that are there. Is it really worth it vs going to GH, where you're pretty much going to leave happy?[/QUOTE]It's not really worth it from a pure $ perspective. However, sometimes all I want is a decent massage and a HE without having to actually expend any effort myself. Yeah, for a few more $ I could just go to McFarland, but those girls are so bad at the massage, I tell them to just skip it. I also get a small thrill from talking the older girls out of their clothes, which admittedly doesn't happen often. I rarely try a new place once I've found one I like, for the exact reasons you mentioned. The service is hit and miss, so once I'm getting service I'm happy with, I don't bother going elsewhere unless I'm really curious.

I've never bothered with GH, so I don't know if the women there actually give a reasonable massage or not.

[QUOTE=Maximillon;3428832]The guy who runs the place is very helpful and a decent guy! How judgemental to call someone names that I'm sure you don't even know! Is there no sense of decency anymore? I've been there many times and when there was a problem he fixed it immediately and even gave me free service! He is a stand up guy. We could all tone it back a little especially if the girls are asking for anonymity.[/QUOTE]I agree he's a wonderful man.

I used to have a thing for crystal but I saw crystal a few weeks ago and the little ***** wouldn't do anything but massage me with a shitload of oil. I offered her a extra $60 for a HJ and the and*ritch turned me down. Brianna is my favorite she will go the full mile. If you say that one of the girls tried upcharging the owner will cut you a deal plus the girl will take extra care of you (little while lie) if you know what I mean. Thats why I love my own kind anyway. I've already made an appointment to see my sexy little blue blonde babe.

I don't mind the signs I still get what I want a need from Brianna.

[QUOTE=Crandell76;3427910]Anyone notice the signs in the rooms at Grand Canyon? Now.

I know why nothing has been reviewed or talked about the ladies or their services.

The threats are posted in the rooms.[/QUOTE]The manager / pimp is also patrolling these boards trying to censor us posting as well. His account should be banned.

[blue]Whats the name? If he does't stop I'll make sure every post of there's stays at the top of the forum for weeks

A2[/blue]

[QUOTE=NoDamage;3429061]It's not really worth it from a pure $ perspective. However, sometimes all I want is a decent massage and a HE without having to actually expend any effort myself. Yeah, for a few more $ I could just go to McFarland, but those girls are so bad at the massage, I tell them to just skip it. I also get a small thrill from talking the older girls out of their clothes, which admittedly doesn't happen often. I rarely try a new place once I've found one I like, for the exact reasons you mentioned. The service is hit and miss, so once I'm getting service I'm happy with, I don't bother going elsewhere unless I'm really curious.

I've never bothered with GH, so I don't know if the women there actually give a reasonable massage or not.[/QUOTE]It all depends on the girl, but from what I've read, the AMP girls are nothing special for the most part. But at GH you can get pretty much what you want. And I'm not shilling for GH, just what I've experienced the last 17 years.

[QUOTE=RawlSocket;3429332]It all depends on the girl, but from what I've read, the AMP girls are nothing special for the most part. But at GH you can get pretty much what you want. And I'm not shilling for GH, just what I've experienced the last 17 years.[/QUOTE]Yup. At least in Madison, they aren't special. You can find better talent in warmer climates. WI isn't real popular for the AMP girls. The ones we get didn't have the juice to work some place better. I've seen some pretty nice looking girls in Vegas AMPs. A little more $ though. FL as well, and the price there was about the same If I remember correctly.

I've avoided GH in general because I know a few people that live within blocks of it. There's no good reason for my car to be parked anywhere near it. While I don't have a SO that will get mad, I also don't need the grief. I suppose I could park in a strip mall and walk, but that's too much effort. Same problem with anyone working out of that hotel near by. I've no legit reason to be there.

He already got someone banned for posting if I remember right! What a troll.

[QUOTE=TrueHater7;3429247]The manager / pimp is also patrolling these boards trying to censor us posting as well. His account should be banned.

[blue]Whats the name? If he does't stop I'll make sure every post of there's stays at the top of the forum for weeks

A2[/blue][/QUOTE]

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Went there yesterday afternoon never been there before, got the. 70 for the hour. The massage was very painful, had to ask for softer 3 x she was just digging into with bones it seemed like. Incidental contact with the boys but no tease and nothing on the flip not even an offer of SS. Got dressed and on way out she was waiting, asked for a tip an I said NO. She asks why and I responded NOT HAPPY as I walked out. I won't be returning.

I agree with your statement about the Asian girls being better looking at the Vegas AMP's. I was in Vegas a couple weeks ago with a lady friend and we were trying to find an AMP near the strip that would do a couples massage. Uber driver recommended a place over near " The Orleans". We went and had a 1 hour massage by two very attractive 30 something women. Massage lacked a little bit as the ladies talked to each other in Chinese the whole time and my girl texted while massaging me. My lady friend said her massage felt pretty good. Plenty of tease and the shocker of the whole thing, in addition to my HJ HE, my lady friend was also given a HE with Daty and FIV. That's the first time that's ever happened during a couples massage. Does anyone know if any of the places around here would do that if I took my friend in for a couples massage? Or any AMP's in Milwaukee where they do that? I assume it's not something you can ask ahead of time.

[QUOTE=NoDamage;3429379]Yup. At least in Madison, they aren't special. You can find better talent in warmer climates. WI isn't real popular for the AMP girls. The ones we get didn't have the juice to work some place better. I've seen some pretty nice looking girls in Vegas AMPs. A little more $ though. FL as well, and the price there was about the same If I remember correctly.

I've avoided GH in general because I know a few people that live within blocks of it. There's no good reason for my car to be parked anywhere near it. While I don't have a SO that will get mad, I also don't need the grief. I suppose I could park in a strip mall and walk, but that's too much effort. Same problem with anyone working out of that hotel near by. I've no legit reason to be there.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=FishDude55;3434163]I agree with your statement about the Asian girls being better looking at the Vegas AMP's. I was in Vegas a couple weeks ago with a lady friend and we were trying to find an AMP near the strip that would do a couples massage. Uber driver recommended a place over near " The Orleans". We went and had a 1 hour massage by two very attractive 30 something women. Massage lacked a little bit as the ladies talked to each other in Chinese the whole time and my girl texted while massaging me. My lady friend said her massage felt pretty good. Plenty of tease and the shocker of the whole thing, in addition to my HJ HE, my lady friend was also given a HE with Daty and FIV. That's the first time that's ever happened during a couples massage. Does anyone know if any of the places around here would do that if I took my friend in for a couples massage? Or any AMP's in Milwaukee where they do that? I assume it's not something you can ask ahead of time.[/QUOTE]Wow. Nice. I'm not aware of any place in WI that would offer this, but I've never take taken a woman in for a non-legit massage either. An AMP that offers FS might be your best bet, but who knows.

I've been told that some of the Kenosha AMPs offer FS. Don't know if that's still true and I'm too lazy to drive all the way there. Note that the ladies are still 40's / 50's though. Otherwise, you can find Chicago AMP's that are FS. Check the Chicago board.

They might be ok with your bringing your lady friend to the Asian house in McFarland, but I can't imagine any of those uptight girls doing anything like that. When I did a duo over there, the girls avoided contact with each as much as possible. The only exception is that Coco asked Kiki if she could see what Kiki's fake boobs felt like (My opinion. They weren't good). That was it.

You could try asking the scheduler over there, but she won't discuss anything illegal, so I'm not sure how you could get a good answer.

I finally got to Grand Canyon after reading all the positive reviews. Saw Toni and I was very pleased. Good looking, in great shape, and was very nice to talk to. Massage was nothing to write home about but I didn't care as that was not why I was there. Reviews were spot on. She does like to kiss. I would definitely see her again.

[QUOTE=NoDamage;3429379]I've avoided GH in general because I know a few people that live within blocks of it. There's no good reason for my car to be parked anywhere near it. While I don't have a SO that will get mad, I also don't need the grief. I suppose I could park in a strip mall and walk, but that's too much effort. Same problem with anyone working out of that hotel near by. I've no legit reason to be there.[/QUOTE]Hey! Your legit reason for being there is because you f'n wanted to and you don't care what anyone else thinks! LOL At least that was my attitude when I went and will def do it again. I got tired of worrying about what others thought. Though there are significant reasons for some to be concerned. I respect that of course. .

Thank you for the tit bit of information. I have been curious about the other girls here. I have only seen one (Holly) and had a great time. Been looking forward to going back to see her and maybe another girl the same night.

[QUOTE=DamonV;3405596]I had the pleasure of visiting Madison, WI for a night so I thought I'd check out a local MP. I found the Geisha House after a brief search and popped in to see how it compared to my Soho Walk-ups I love so much. I was not disappointed, but wouldn't say it was the greatest experience ever.

Front door is locked until they buzz you in. Four girls come out and introduce themselves. I selected Kendra as she was easily the most attractive. Tall, black hair, 34 C (ish), and tattos. I love chicks with ink. The others were attractive, but didn't stand out as much to me.

She takes me back to a comfortable, private room with a massage table and an adjoining bathroom. Explains that body rubs are $70, but if I'm interested in more it'll run me a donation of $180+ for 40 min. I happened to have exactly $180 on me, so I made a donation.

A quick solo shower was followed by a short, mediocre, sensual body rub with her Getting Comfortable. She allowed all exterior touching, but no FIV or DATY. After a decent HJ and good CBJ, I went Mish for a few minutes, and then CG until I finished (which she did with pretty convincing enjoyment). Another quick shower, some funny banter, and a hug goodbye.

Overall, she was very attractive and pleasant, and made me feel comfortable, but felt that she was rather vanilla. Perhaps after a few more visits she would open up and allow more (like DATY, Greek, etc). I'm definitely going to check out the other ladies here as well to see how they stack up, but it won't be for some time that I'm back in these parts of the world.

I hope this was helpful. It's my first post here.

Pleasant punting everyone.[/QUOTE]

Some of these women bodybuilders have a very large ummm. Clitorus. Were you able to tell in this case?

[QUOTE=BadgerBob;3150193]Alright ITOFT on this one. Let me start by saying she looks nothing like the picture. She is a bodybuilder and I was really looking for the adams apple on her throat. I couldn't find one but I'm still not convence she's a women. She has tanned a lot over time and it shows very rough skin all she does is give you a very light rub not a massage and tickle with some feathers. Don't be fooled by the picture might be alright for some but most of you will be very disapointed.[/QUOTE]

Went and tried the "new" place in Watertown. Long, usual story, cut short, teasing and mutual touch, but SS offered. Tried to encourage her, but she would not have it, in a polite way. Can't say if it would never happen, but a good massage from a pretty cute AMT. I won't be making the drive back though. YMMV.

Has anyone used the world spa network app or website to book a massage? Is it legit. It asks for bitcoins and I don't have any experience with those.

[QUOTE=BallerStatus42;3438262]Has anyone used the world spa network app or website to book a massage? Is it legit. It asks for bitcoins and I don't have any experience with those.[/QUOTE]Interesting! I've never heard of it. Anyone else have experience with it?

[QUOTE=Wj0272;3439566]Interesting! I've never heard of it. Anyone else have experience with it?[/QUOTE]I've heard of it, but just assume that it's some kind of scam.

Has anyone tried this place? I tried to search for it but didm't get any hits. I'd rather stick to the east side if at all possible.

[QUOTE=Noob2017;3439827]Has anyone tried this place? I tried to search for it but didm't get any hits. I'd rather stick to the east side if at all possible.[/QUOTE]I've always assumed this place was legit massages only. There are various reviews on google, yelp, TripAdvisor, etc. AMPs with 'extras' tend to not get many reviews on those sites.

Sounds like Angels in sun prairie is an option if your looking for the standard AMP HE on the east side. I've never been there though.

[QUOTE=PSylabs;3437228]Thank you for the tit bit of information. I have been curious about the other girls here. I have only seen one (Holly) and had a great time. Been looking forward to going back to see her and maybe another girl the same night.[/QUOTE]Hi guys, I'm hoping to partake but am totally confused between Geisha House and Geisha Bath House. Are they the same place? RM has details for GBH on Washington, but no listing for GH. Can someone share location for GH? Which one is Holly at?