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[QUOTE=Bigdikdanaler;1247896]Man I am a fc regular and I didn't know Alan got shot in the face, that is messed up![/QUOTE]This happened several years ago the idiot who shot him was drunk and they were removing him from bar, he fired the shot through the closed door.
[url]http://asthepagesturn.wordpress.com/2010/01/06/in-the-spotlight-topless-prophet-by-alan-markovitz/[/url]
Yeah, that's messed. I never been there (looks out of my area and tax bracket). Sounds like the night Flight Club turned into the Fight Club.
[QUOTE=Bigboi47; 1248409]This happened several years ago the idiot who shot him was drunk and they were removing him from bar, he fired the shot through the closed door.
[url]http://asthepagesturn.wordpress.com/2010/01/06/in-the-spotlight-topless-prophet-by-alan-markovitz/[/url][/QUOTE]
Stopped here like a couple of weeks ago in the afternoon (no cover) and found what I go to "black" club for: a cutie with a big ghetto Booty". I believe her name was Candy. Didn't take long to good upstairs. She was pretty freindly and put those healthy ass cheeks right where they belong. In my lap. I let my self get hustled though. She let me pull out my magic stick but she really didn't have any direct contact with little man. She rubbed him through my shirt so that it was ass to shirt. Shirt to little man. I didn't have a cover and she was worried about where I would "release" into. $.2 later I have blue balls bad from the tease. She tells me she don't have x in the club. "too dangerous". Wish I got that straight from the beginning. Frustrating for sure but I was nice too be so close to all that "junk" LOL.
Stopped by Bogarts today and was approached by Natty? White girl maybe mid twenties, not sure of the name. Informed me that she does take out with customers. Has anyone tried take out from this place? It is a bit odd that she tells me about take out the first time we meet, we have not even had a lap dance yet. I am thinking of taking her offer but want to play safe, appreciate of any feedback.
Any info on what hours Deanna works on Fridays? I've read a lot about her BBBJ, and I'm very interested.
[QUOTE=WolfDawg;1249478]Any info on what hours Deanna works on Fridays? I've read a lot about her BBBJ, and I'm very interested.[/QUOTE]When doesn't she work? I've literally seen her every time I have been there, and she doesn't recognize me at all. And I am very unique looking individual.
Not to hijack, but I went there for some reason recently, chatted up Naomi and got a dance from her. I was very impressed with her looks and attitude, unexpectedly it was a very pleasurable experience.
Out of towner coming in next week and curious of which place to hit up, either Henry 8's or Bogarts? I have been to Bogies and had a GREAT time. Wish we had place like this in MO. Really don't feel like screwing up a good thing but have read some great things about Henrys so I am asking the local experts. Where do I go?
If it matters, I will be there either Wed or Thurs afternoon, not night.
Thanks for the help.
Stay safe!
Your Missouri friend
Henry 8th south is a much smaller club so you won't usually find top notch girls like Boggies. I prefer H8S, I think every girl at H8S gets "naughty" in the bead bobbin room.
In my experience with both I would have to go with hs8. It has a brothel feel, but always negotiate before you go back there. And remember the name deanna when you get there, she is the best.
[QUOTE=Pussylicker2;1250105]Henry 8th south is a much smaller club so you won't usually find top notch girls like Boggies. I prefer H8S, I think every girl at H8S gets "naughty" in the bead bobbin room.[/QUOTE]Thanks PL2, not looking so much for top notch as I am naughty. If I get the chance I will hit both but think I will try my luck at H8S this time around.
I'll post my report after.
Moputt
[QUOTE=Deckape; 1247482]Skip Tycoons and migrate 800 yds west to Coliseum.
But avoid Saturday night, unless you really like crowds with lots of bachelor parties; like last night.
Coli has way more dancers and they are way HOTTER; last night there were 44.
Pricing you ask?
Typical starting rate for the girls is 150 for FS. Some hot ones will start higher, perhaps 200 or more. Don't do it. Everything that you need should happen between 60 and 150. Examples; last night I got Jasmine for 80 f (all covered) or everything she wanted 150. Couple weeks ago I got Violet on Friday afternoon for a 60 hummer. Last Friday I had Ally for everything for 80 BBBJ and FS.
Another advantage to Coli over Tycoons is no 20 buck bouncer tax per VIP visit. During the week no cover till 9 (cover is for fools, anyway) and 3 buck beers till 9.
But if you prefer dumpster diving, the Hamilton clubs are for you. Girls at the same prices as Coliseum without the nice, private VIP room with a comfortable chair and plenty of room to play. Cheaper beer and better service. And if you are in the H8S hood, go to Hustler or BT's.[/QUOTE]Ok, took your advice on the Coli and was pleased. Some what. Got approached by Mel, smoking hot brunette, tiny body, tight, nice size tits. Went back to the FREE VIP area and was blown away that that nice of a VIP area was free. Started with your typical dance, groping thru the clothes. Wouldn't let me finger her but had fun making her moan through her thong. After a song or two, I decided to pull out Mr. Happy myself and she said she doesn't do that. I said ok and she continued the dance while he was still in the open. She brushed againest "him" a few times and after a half song of me rubbing her happy area she started stroking him, faster and faster. I tried pushing her head down to no avail, but did get a few licks with her tongue. Ended happy for a small fee. Afterwards, she said she's never done that, which I believe because when Mr. Happy exploded, she wasn't prepared at all and asked me what should we do. Because she was a first timer, made it hotter for me. Out the door including drinks and valet. 140.
I have been to Bogarts, HC, H8S. I usually end up at H8S. Never been to BT's. Does the VIP there cost $20 every time or is that just Pantheon? If the girls there are good priced chicks there, as someone sugeested, or not I will try and find out on my own. Any special girls or days to try? I will likely try over the weekend in a few weeks so that will likely help me. Not looking for calendar girls as much as a decent attitude and just not heavy's, just not for me.
Stopped in around 6pm Friday, not a whole lot of girls there yet, but I expected that. Nikki came up to me and didn't play around, grabbed my junk and asked if I wanted a blow job. I didn't do anything right then, but she quoted me $ for BJ and $$ FS. I knew I could bring that down, but I almost didn't care at the time, and finally went back with her as she was the best looking girl there. She gave a very good CBJ with some good hand action as well. Only took about a song and a half, which is fairly quick for me but she was doing a hell of a job. She even put the cover on with her mouth, first time I've had that done. All in all a good time, I sooooo wish the clubs down in Ohio where I live were like this!
[QUOTE=WolfDawg;1251531]she quoted me $ for BJ and $$ FS. I knew I could bring that down, but I almost didn't care at the time,[/QUOTE]So what did you pay? What does she look like?
With the weather being bad Saturday afternoon I stopped by Bogarts for a while. Took Moca, tiny black early 20s with puffy nipples, up to the VIP. 1$ for everything with no rushing and a good attitude.
Went to Bts around 10. Sat at the bar and had a few $7. 75 beers and was aproached by four different girls. The first girl came over offered a CBJ for 1 so I passed. Then another came over and said everything for 2 so I passed again. Then the girl with the five stars tatoo across her back came and she started at 2 but got everything for 1. Start with bbj then doggie then finish with bbjcim. So after that I went bacl to the bar and another girl came up to me wanting to play. So I gave her my cell and she suppose to hit me up today for takeout.
Thanks John for the advice
[QUOTE=Pussylicker2;1251637]So what did you pay? What does she look like?[/QUOTE]Paid $ for CBJ. Like I said I knew it was too much, but didn't feel much like negotiating. She's medium length blond hair, nice natural boobs, pretty face, average height, not super skinny but not big by any means. Don't know what more to say LOL.
Slightly off topic, but how do Bogart's, H8, and H8S feel about smoking inside the bar?
[QUOTE=Roxtar1011;1253569]Slightly off topic, but how do Bogart's, H8, and H8S feel about smoking inside the bar?[/QUOTE]Just ask for an ashtray.
An interesting second visit to Bogarts after one month. This time was on a Wednesday night vs. A Monday night on the first visit. The bar was quite a bit more lively with a fair amount of dollar tips transacting at the stage seats. When I walked in there was a stunning black dancer on the main stage so I took a seat and fed her a bunch of bucks. Decided to stay in that spot while shopping for my date. Each dancer after the first one wanted to sit and chat after their turn on stage. I think this is a better strategy to interview candidates rather than sitting at the bar and waiting for dancers to approach. Anyway I ended up taking a dark brown haired young thing (almost Arabic in appearance) up to the mezzanine (sorry forget her name). Went for the full service option with no time limit. She started on me with an absolutely awesome BBBJ. It was a little crowded up in the mezzanine so I had to share pretty close quarters with another couple who were not doing extras. The BBBJ on me was right out in the open and I could tell the guy next to me got a little freaked out; he split after less than one song. We then went on to kitty mode and I regretted not just taking the BBBJCIM option that was offered initially. That kitty experience was just no match for the BBBJ. I am looking forward to my next visit.
Out of towner here, where is Bogarts located at?
[QUOTE=hardon;1254848]An interesting second visit to Bogarts after one month. This time was on a Wednesday night vs. A Monday night on the first visit. The bar was quite a bit more lively with a fair amount of dollar tips transacting at the stage seats. When I walked in there was a stunning black dancer on the main stage so I took a seat and fed her a bunch of bucks. Decided to stay in that spot while shopping for my date. Each dancer after the first one wanted to sit and chat after their turn on stage. I think this is a better strategy to interview candidates rather than sitting at the bar and waiting for dancers to approach. Anyway I ended up taking a dark brown haired young thing (almost Arabic in appearance) up to the mezzanine (sorry forget her name). Went for the full service option with no time limit. She started on me with an absolutely awesome BBBJ. It was a little crowded up in the mezzanine so I had to share pretty close quarters with another couple who were not doing extras. The BBBJ on me was right out in the open and I could tell the guy next to me got a little freaked out; he split after less than one song. We then went on to kitty mode and I regretted not just taking the BBBJCIM option that was offered initially. That kitty experience was just no match for the BBBJ. I am looking forward to my next visit.[/QUOTE]I have had the same experience many times at Boggies, I am a bit of an exobitionist so geting serviced in front of other people is a turn on for me. Just wondering what the damages where, it helps us mongers with the negotiating process. Last time I was there I gave $1. 00 for BBBJ and full service.
[QUOTE=Underdog1495;1254935]Out of towner here, where is Bogarts located at?[/QUOTE]Right off the corner of Inkster Road on Mich ave, across the street from The Flight Club.
[QUOTE=Bigboi47;1255379]Right off the corner of Inkster Road on Mich ave, across the street from The Flight Club.[/QUOTE]Actually, its on Michigan Ave west of Middlebelt, just east of Henry Ruff.
[QUOTE=Bigboi47;1255379]Right off the corner of Inkster Road on Mich ave, across the street from The Flight Club.[/QUOTE]Just west of Middlebelt Road, Inkster Road is a mile farther east. You can take Middlebelt north from the airport a few miles to Michigan Avenue, or catch the club on the way out of town (assuming you flew in).
[QUOTE=Bigboi47;1255379]Right off the corner of Inkster Road on Mich ave, across the street from The Flight Club.[/QUOTE]My bad I confused the city of Inkster with Middlebelt. Anyone been to Flight Club or Henry's north lately?
[QUOTE=Bigboi47;1255875]My bad I confused the city of Inkster with Middlebelt. Anyone been to Flight Club or Henry's north lately?[/QUOTE]Flight club is my home club, never leave unhappy.
Was in town and able to stop by both Bogarts and Henry 8's last week, Wed and Thurs. I had been to Bogarts once before, last year and had fun so was looking to see what H8's had to offer.
Wednesday: Finally found H8's about 4pm. I was looking all up and down Inkster instead of Middlebelt road, but all was good. Walked in, sat at bar and ordered beer from the cutest little waitress ever. Can't remember her name but little boy shorts on and glasses. Anyway, blonde comes sits next to me and starts putting her had in my crotch, which I absolutely love. Trying to get me upstairs but I had just got there and wanted to chill out a bit and enjoy the chase. Wasn't real impressed with the scenery but not bad overall. Quoted me $$ for BJ, which I just laughed at thanks to my RTFF. I said too much, she offered to negotiate but I was ready to head to Bogarts to check it out.
Got to Bogies, much better talent all around, at least look wise. Sat down and had several different ladies push for dances. Was talking to one, little smaller but cute, and had to pick up coworker from airport. When I got back another lady grabbed me. Well first one told me that I could have them both for 3 dances for $, so I was sold. Upstairs to the open area, which was different than last year, and they started kissing each other and playing with me. Very hot! Eventually slid my little putter out of my shorts and one would work on me while the other played with her. Actually got the short one to stand up and bend over and give me a BBBJ while the other licked her. I was in heaven. Absolutely best time I have ever had in any club, bar none! Finished in a napkin at the end of the third song so perfect timing. Will say that being out in the open is a bit daring. Lots of people up there but I was so caught up I had no cares in the world.
Thursday: Almost didn't go due to the fact that I knew I would try and top Wednesday and would have a hard time. Again, stopped by Henry's but again wasn't that impressed. Had a beer from little hottie bartender and hung out. Did get approached by a gorgeous little blonde, who unfortunately had to be on heroin, which is not my thing at all. I know that a lot of the girls need a boost to keep going, and even though I am not a huge fan I understand. But she was drooling and talking very slow. Offered everything for $ but I am not a fan of comatose girls so I passed. Back to Bogies, cute little girl offered her services. I told her I was only looking for a HJ today and for. 5 we went up and away she went. Let me finger her cute little pussy while she leaned over me and licked my ear and neck and stroked to her little hearts content. Again, packed upstairs right in the middle, and again I didn't care at all. She had a small tissue and caught some but when I kept going she just caught the rest in her hand and no complaint at all. Gave me another little neck kiss and went to wash up.
Total damage spent for both days at both places was $$$, but that was with lots of drinks bought and having some fun. Easily could of got out of there for much less but I was looking to have some fun and play around. Just wish I didn't live 700 miles away, but that is probably a good thing. Thanks for the advice and I look forward to my next visit to Dtown.
Moputt.
Stay safe
Well I'm glad that someone had a good time at bogarts because I definitly did not. I stopped by on Fri night, their were several good looking girls and the place was packed. I was aproached by several girls but all of them wanted 200 for FS and BBBJ. I was like no way, and countered with 100. They all looked at me like I was crazy. But tell me why would I pay 200 for FS and BBBJ in a strip club when I can get a fine girl from BP for an entire hr with good reviews who does all of that for 150? The finest girl there was this 18 yr old named leah who just started working and she doesn't even do any extras! I guess its all about supply and demand. Their were so many guys in the club that I'm sure several of them were willing to pay 200+. I left with a pocket full of money cause it was no way that I was going to pay that.
As I visit more and more clubs in the area, I'm starting to suspect that nothing can really top deanna at h8s. She does BBBJ with cim for 100 and every time I go some place else I end up wishing that I had just gone there and gotten a dance from her. In my opinion, I think that overall h8s is better than bogarts. Its true bogarts has slightly better looking (and younger) girls but they don't all do extras. Plus, the bartenders at bogarts seem to be more anoying that at h8s (and thats saying something cause the bartenders at h8s bug the hell out of you!). I was there for about 2 hrs and I bought 3 drinks and the girl still basicaly asked me to leave because I wasnt ordering any thing. WTF? I'm here to look at TITS AND ASS, not buy $7 beers! What these bartenders don't seem to understand is that when they ask us to leave, they are taking money away from the strippers. Empty barstools don't put dollar bills in g-strings.
Went to H8S last night. First club I've ever been to in Detroit. Had a pretty good time overall. Kept going outside to smoke,
Because smoking wasn't allowed inside. Was approached by a blonde that looked mid 30's. Very cute and nice big breasts, but
Wanted 200 for everything or 150 for BJ. I ended up passing on that one. A few minutes later a skinny blonde came sat by me
(think her name was candi). She wanted 150 for everything and eventually I ended up taking her up on that. Couldn't seem to find anyone who would do a BBBJ for under 100 and didn't have any luck locating Deanna.
So Candi and I made our way to one of the private booths. Had a very nice time. Ended up giving her 180. We were back there for about 25 minutes. I was surprised she stayed back there that long.
Trying to decide where to go tonight. I have one more night in town, but I think I'm going to hit up H8S again tonight, since it's so.
Close to my hotel.
I was able to visit both clubs on weekdays during a recent trip to Detroit. My first stop was BT's. It was a slow night and they seemed to have more dancers than customers. All the dancers were white and most were petite. I was hoping for some good bargains since there were so few customers. Most dancers asked 150 for full service VIP, would immediately drop the price to 100, but were not willing to go lower. I finally settled on a BBBJ for 70 with a brunette whose name I can't remember. Their VIP rooms are private, well lit, and seemed reasonble clean. I had fun at BT's but the 20 VIP fee (for each use) .10 entrance, and $8 beer made it more expensive than other clubs. I was able to park at a nearby restaurant since I don't like others having access to my car for valet parking. BT's felt like a big town club that would have a lot of out-of-towners in addition to regulars.
On a second night in town I visited the Vert. They had about 8 dancers with an interesting variety of sizes and shapes, from tiny to curvy without being fat. All white except for 1 black dancer. The Vert is a smaller place and felt like a small town club that has mostly regulars. I was attracted to a thin dancer named Tanya early in the night. Immediately agreed to FS VIP for 80. As many have noted, the Vert has a single VIP area instead of private booths. I started to drop my pants and get right to business even though there was one other dancer in the VIP. I guess this is not standard at the Vert since Tanya stopped me and wanted to be more discrete. She spent some time grinding her butt on my lap until the others left and then got down to business. We started with a good oral session. Tanya seemed nervous about other dancers entering the VIP while performing. When it was time to move on to the final act I was surprised that she was about to hop on bareback. She acted surprised and unprepared when I asked about protection. I came prepared as always so we were able to cover up and proceed. Later in the night other dancers I talked to refered to Tanya as the one. Tooth hillbilly. I believe she was missing one front tooth.
I'm normally a one and out guy but there were two other dancers that caught my eye. I decided to have a couple more beers, recover, and go for a second shot. Near closing time I invited a petite blond with great nipples to the VIP, can't remember her name. She said she didn't do BJ or FS but did agree to a HJ for 40. The VIP was busy near closing time, seemed that everyone wanted a last dance. She didn't seem overly concerned about being discrete. She just placed her body between me and most other customers, unzipped my pants and went to work. I left the VIP a happy guy for the second time.
The Vert had no entrance fee, no extra VIP fee, self parking, and $20 bucket of beer. I thought they offered great value for the buck.
[QUOTE=Ynormanb; 1258176]I was able to visit both clubs on weekdays during a recent trip to Detroit. My first stop was BT's. It was a slow night and they seemed to have more dancers than customers. All the dancers were white and most were petite. I was hoping for some good bargains since there were so few customers. Most dancers asked 150 for full service VIP, would immediately drop the price to 100, but were not willing to go lower. I finally settled on a BBBJ for 70 with a brunette whose name I can't remember. Their VIP rooms are private, well lit, and seemed reasonble clean. I had fun at BT's but the 20 VIP fee (for each use).10 entrance, and $8 beer made it more expensive than other clubs. I was able to park at a nearby restaurant since I don't like others having access to my car for valet parking. BT's felt like a big town club that would have a lot of out-of-towners in addition to regulars.
On a second night in town I visited the Vert. They had about 8 dancers with an interesting variety of sizes and shapes, from tiny to curvy without being fat. All white except for 1 black dancer. The Vert is a smaller place and felt like a small town club that has mostly regulars. I was attracted to a thin dancer named Tanya early in the night. Immediately agreed to FS VIP for 80. As many have noted, the Vert has a single VIP area instead of private booths. I started to drop my pants and get right to business even though there was one other dancer in the VIP. I guess this is not standard at the Vert since Tanya stopped me and wanted to be more discrete. She spent some time grinding her butt on my lap until the others left and then got down to business. We started with a good oral session. Tanya seemed nervous about other dancers entering the VIP while performing. When it was time to move on to the final act I was surprised that she was about to hop on bareback. She acted surprised and unprepared when I asked about protection. I came prepared as always so we were able to cover up and proceed. Later in the night other dancers I talked to refered to Tanya as the one. Tooth hillbilly. I believe she was missing one front tooth.
I'm normally a one and out guy but there were two other dancers that caught my eye. I decided to have a couple more beers, recover, and go for a second shot. Near closing time I invited a petite blond with great nipples to the VIP, can't remember her name. She said she didn't do BJ or FS but did agree to a HJ for 40. The VIP was busy near closing time, seemed that everyone wanted a last dance. She didn't seem overly concerned about being discrete. She just placed her body between me and most other customers, unzipped my pants and went to work. I left the VIP a happy guy for the second time.
The Vert had no entrance fee, no extra VIP fee, self parking, and $20 bucket of beer. I thought they offered great value for the buck.[/QUOTE]LOL she was missing a front tooth and you didn't notice? How many beers did you have? Good report. Might have to try the Vert. I hear that your money goes pretty far at cheetahs too but that it can be dangerous. Any recent visitors? I would like to try it out but I don't want to get shot cause I accedently stepped on someones shoes.
I went there once years ago. I had read about great service at another site. I was surprised by the VIP room, which was just narrow hard chairs in a small room. It was barely an upgrade from a bench in a crowded locker room.
[QUOTE=Chuka;1259074]I went there once years ago. I had read about great service at another site. I was surprised by the VIP room, which was just narrow hard chairs in a small room. It was barely an upgrade from a bench in a crowded locker room.[/QUOTE]Chuka:
So much has changed since your last visit! That small VIP room is now divided into 5 or 6 little 3' by 3' cubicles, some with bench seats built in! Not sure how they expected to get a good lap dance in there. I've been going there for 20 years, and it has never been as bad as it is now, talent-wise. I read on a few sites how things are better now. Maybe I just go on the wrong days. I, as a long-time fan of H8S, can truly say it sucks now (and not in a good way). As always, YMMV, but I used to go a lot; now I run out before my beer is done-it is that bad. You may find differing opinions here, but this is mine. A wise monger once told me,"It doesn't cost much more to go first class". Very true. Why pay for Spam when you can have steak for the same amount? I cannot even bring myself to use my VIP card to get in free.
Regards,
Costanza
Well I just need to know so you are proud of that fact you just paid 140 dollars for a rubbing nut. I want to know how you justified giving a working girl that much money don't care what she look like. Well as long as you pay it they will think its the way it should be. You know its just like anything else in the world hit them where it hurt in the pocket the price will have to come down, come fellows join the union, make them pay less don't be a scab. Take it from someone who knows I travel all over the world and this shit here in America is too high, for that 140 I could have 4 beautiful ladies not for one nut but the whole night and when they wake up in the morning they ask you if they can leave Sir. Just say WTF you paying that much money for do the math how many hours you have to work for that same 140 dollars and she got it from you in less then 10mins, Ha Ha Ha who's laughing to the bank or crack house.
Thank you! Brother. Monger union member here too.
I just read another thread where they were trying to justify paying $200 and more and not even sure they were even going to get any release."oh' it's the thrill of the challenge". WTF! Then stay home and try to get a piece of ass off your wife tonight. Learn some negotiating skills cause you're fucking it up for the rest of us. I know so many of these girls and they're all laughing at these fucks, but it makes it harder for me.
I keep telling you guys these BP girls are nothing but hoes with internet access. Strippers and AMPs just have a brothel to work at. I've gotten girls for as little as $8, $6, and even free. That's right I've even had working girls for free. I don't fuck skanks or toothless wonders either. I'm probably one of the pickiest MF'rs anyone knows.
I know guys that go to Europe and South America on a regular basis. For $20. $40 US funds they get a dream girl or 2 that stays the night and does what ever you want for the whole night.
Learn some skills.
[QUOTE=Steven Ba;1259523]Well I just need to know so you are proud of that fact you just paid 140 dollars for a rubbing nut. I want to know how you justified giving a working girl that much money don't care what she look like. Well as long as you pay it they will think its the way it should be. You know its just like anything else in the world hit them where it hurt in the pocket the price will have to come down, come fellows join the union, make them pay less don't be a scab. Take it from someone who knows I travel all over the world and this shit here in America is too high, for that 140 I could have 4 beautiful ladies not for one nut but the whole night and when they wake up in the morning they ask you if they can leave Sir. Just say WTF you paying that much money for do the math how many hours you have to work for that same 140 dollars and she got it from you in less then 10mins, Ha Ha Ha who's laughing to the bank or crack house.[/QUOTE]
I'm up for helping fellow mongers with info and such when I can -- with "such" potentially meaning many things -- but I think it's going to far to criticize others for what they choose to pay. We all come to the hobby from different situations, whether it's finances, confidence, and all other sorts of things that come into play when negotiating and ultimately paying. I don't think many of use are thinking, when decision-time comes in a haggling situation, "how will this affect my fellow mongers." In the end, you have to deal with yourself and the girl. I'm not saying it's not good to hold prices down if you can, but no point in berating fellow mongerers for their decisions.