"Sugarbabies" / "Arrangements" Amateurs or Not?

[QUOTE=Beachesnole02;3083654]Anyone have any experience with this site? It is run by the same people as SA? Thanks.[/QUOTE]Yes, WYP is owned by the same dude who owns SA. WYP is the biggest scourge to Sugar Dating. I'll explain later.

WYP is a scam! They have very limited profiles available of the girls. In order to "unlock" email communication with a girl it costs you "credits". Credits are not free. Oh, and in order to unlock email communication, you have to have agreed on a price for a date! So you read a 4 line profile and look at some pictures and decide if you want to make what the site calls a "binding contract" to date a girl just to open email communications. So you bid back and forth for the date. The girls have GPS and are looking for tremendous amounts of money. Oh and the number of "credits" it costs you (I. E. Money out of your pocket) to open email depends on your "bid" on the date! So a bid of $100 might run you $10 worth of credits while a bid of $300 might run you $50 worth of credits. Oh and while you are paying to participate there, the girls pay nothing. So with no cash invested in the venture, the level of seriousness is not great.

So you foolishly bid HIGH amounts in order to get to email communication with a girl. You are soon are pizzing through a bunch of money! But here is the kicker: in my experience over half of those you start communicating with are flakes. It costs the girl nothing to join so many join and kick the tires. Then about 25% of the girls will turn out to be whackos that you don't want to meet anyway. So of the remaining ones, 20% will make a date and flake. So all of that for a 5% meet up rate? But here is the rub that most guys ignore, due to thinking with their little head, once you "have a contract to meet" (and in the site's stern warnings that is when you open email communications you have agreed on a date and made a contract) [B]the WYP site is VERY EXPLICIT with its warnings that "sex should NEVER be expected on a first date" and is not part of what is contracted for.[/B].

Right there is where males get tripped up. They think. Gee, I just agreed to pay this cute 20-something girl $300 for a date to go out to dinner, I am sure she understands I mean that to include a long romp in the hay later! Unfortunately you are dead wrong! What gives many "normal" girls the courage to follow through with something like this IS the fact that this site's concept and structure is "safe" and it is just a platonic date! In their mind just having conversation, eating free food and getting free drinks is OK, it isn't prostitution. Something a majority of the WYP girls won't do. So when they see the WYP warning that "sex should NEVER be expected on a first date" they believe it and take it to heart. So that is why many are there. Platonic dates for some easy cash!

You can test this out for yourself. Buy $100 worth of credits and get started. (I think $100 is the minimum buy in). If you bid low enough and can find girls who will agree to a minimum amount, that should get you access to 10 girls. Once you start talking with them, let's see how many flake. Then if you suggest perhaps some intimate time after the date, let's see how many actually meet. The fact that OP suggests there are many "fakes" on the site comes from this. The girls want platonic dates, the dudes want sex and when it becomes clear a dude wants sex, a girl drops out and the guys think she is a "fake!"

Hey I am sure one CAN get laid off of that site, especially if one has more money than brains. Oh, I suspect there are regional differences too. But why fork over $100 for credits on a "chance" one can find a serious enough girl using a messed up way of operating and going against all site warnings? Why do that when for $65 one can sign up for SA where there are no warnings about "sex should not be expected on the first date?" Where in fact the underlying assumption is that sex is an eventuality of any "arrangement!"

Now back to why WYP is a scourge to SB dating? The WYP fosters the concept of "platonic dating for cash. " That fine, that's their business plan, their game. I'm not down with it. But the dude who owns WYP also owns SA and as such he heavily cross promotes the WYP girls with ads about SA! So girls with a "cash for platonic dating" regularly and frequently get pushed, cajoled or wander on to the SA site. So who needs an influx of girls who don't get SB dating or who would never follow through? It helps foster the idea that one can be a SB without hitting the FC!

So go ahead and explore the WYP site and come back and tell us how you hit 10 for 10 in the FC! RIGHT!

[QUOTE=GuyInTheCorner;3084225]Yes, there are quite a few submissive girls. The SB dynamic leads to it. I suspect a fair number of us are naturally dominant ourselves. I'd encourage you to explore it yourself. Chances are you might discover something about yourself. Or don't -- more for the rest of us.

There is a surprisingly high correlation between girls on SA and on fetlife.[/QUOTE]Messaging with a POT now, a 22 YO grad student spinner, caught her first day on SA. I usually go low-key and nice, but she's such a newbie I began to think about her being compliant. One suggestive statement in response to my leading?

'command is good. Especially in an area of expertise which I am less familiar. '.

M&G in the next day.

Be careful.

Scammer poses as a hot blonde.

Happens to be at another state and needs your $$$ to get back.

Seriously who falls for this shit?

Two profiles from NoVA / MD as examples:

Summers4 love.

Behyndmyblueyez.

So anyone have any luck with a hot 20 year old called Nicole from Ukraine. Or she may have said she was from Russia. I can't find her profile anymore on SA.

[QUOTE=FarFarAway;3084311]Just to clarify, I proposed turning these girls into SBs, not having affairs with them. As you are famous for saying JL, there's no such thing as free pussy. And no, they aren't employees and my 'work' situation doesn't involve any kind of formal relationship with them. So its not nearly so bad as the conclusion some jumped to.[/QUOTE]Yes I understand, but understand I was referring to the guy who brings them to his office (at least I don't think that was you? Maybe it was).

My point was that the office is going to be linked to their identity in some way if they are operating out of that office professionally. The differentiating factors between an SB or a mistress, for purposes of a married guy bringing them to the office, are effectively the same:

- Either of them can get pregnant.

- Either of them can turn on you and attempt blackmail.

- Either of them can be subpoenaed in a divorce case.

- Either of them would piss the wife off if she knew.

- A legal judgment is unlikely to be lessened because she's an SB instead of a mistress.

So there are really no circumstances where it would make sense to hide ones identity, license plate, or seek other anonymity protection and then bring a girl to the office where they work, making it much easier for them to find out everything they want to know about you (it's also a private investigators wet dream, because it makes surveillance easy in most cases).

I believe what you and I may have been talking about some time back is you were meeting girls under the pretense of a job interview then gauging their interest as an SB, which I think as fine as long as they are taken to a proper anonymous FC instead of ones workplace. Perhaps the only issue I see with it is that most girls that show up for a job interview are probably going to be a little suspicious if the interview takes place at some external place by a guy who gives his first name only. Then again, girls who are looking for a fuck-boss might already be used to that sort of meeting arrangement and be specifically looking for it.

Yeah, that's not the situation at all. I happened to meet these girls in an office setting. If I do anything with them it will be off premises, and they will be SBs, but with the variant that they know who I am. The same motivations of anonymity will apply. Babies don't want people to know they are b / c they look like hookers to some.

The guy who ran that other racket was ILuvSmellyFish, as I posted recently. It's not my gig, I just hoped to get pointers from his approach to turning girls (he succeeded with one).

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;3085148]Yes I understand, but understand I was referring to the guy who brings them to his office (at least I don't think that was you? Maybe it was).

My point was that the office is going to be linked to their identity in some way if they are operating out of that office professionally. The differentiating factors between an SB or a mistress, for purposes of a married guy bringing them to the office, are effectively the same:

- Either of them can get pregnant.

- Either of them can turn on you and attempt blackmail.

- Either of them can be subpoenaed in a divorce case.

- Either of them would piss the wife off if she knew.

- A legal judgment is unlikely to be lessened because she's an SB instead of a mistress.

So there are really no circumstances where it would make sense to hide ones identity, license plate, or seek other anonymity protection and then bring a girl to the office where they work, making it much easier for them to find out everything they want to know about you (it's also a private investigators wet dream, because it makes surveillance easy in most cases).

I believe what you and I may have been talking about some time back is you were meeting girls under the pretense of a job interview then gauging their interest as an SB, which I think as fine as long as they are taken to a proper anonymous FC instead of ones workplace. Perhaps the only issue I see with it is that most girls that show up for a job interview are probably going to be a little suspicious if the interview takes place at some external place by a guy who gives his first name only. Then again, girls who are looking for a fuck-boss might already be used to that sort of meeting arrangement and be specifically looking for it.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=FarFarAway;3085367]Yeah, that's not the situation at all. I happened to meet these girls in an office setting. If I do anything with them it will be off premises, and they will be SBs, but with the variant that they know who I am. The same motivations of anonymity will apply. Babies don't want people to know they are b / c they look like hookers to some.

The guy who ran that other racket was ILuvSmellyFish, as I posted recently. It's not my gig, I just hoped to get pointers from his approach to turning girls (he succeeded with one).[/QUOTE]The guy I was referring to is not the same guy you've mentioned here (and I don't remember who it is). I never traded emails with the guy you're talking about, and put him on ignore a long time ago, so I haven't even seen his messages in probably over a year except in the rare case someone quotes him on something and the text gets included in their reply. Not mentioning that to stir something up here but in the hopes that the guy that I am referring to might chime in and remind us who he is because I no longer have his emails or PMs. Otherwise I'd be inclined to assume he may have disappeared because he may have gotten busted by the wife or exited the hobby for some other reason.

[QUOTE=Ltnric;3085079]So anyone have any luck with a hot 20 year old called Nicole from Ukraine. Or she may have said she was from Russia. I can't find her profile anymore on SA.[/QUOTE]I messaged her just before she went dark on SA. Never opened my message. Probably exclusive for now or just gone.

[QUOTE=JustLonely;3064923]You are right! I changed my preset location on SA and now both show 1438 members in my search radius. Some days I am in the office all by myself so that is when I waste too much time chasing pussy! Nobody comes to the office except UPS around 345 pm so its goof off time some days like today. One business phone call in the last 4 hours.[/QUOTE]Are they hiring?

I've sought other posts on this unsuccessfully. I am considering saying goodbye to #1 SB b / c I am feeling vulnerable to a slip up and need to get out of the bowl after a few months (I believe this is JeezLizard's advice). I really like her though. How do I do this without feeling like a heel? Yeah, I know, I can always just evaporate. Second, has anyone resurrected a SB after a break, and if so, how was groundwork laid before and the deal closed after?

[QUOTE=FarFarAway;3086638]I've sought other posts on this unsuccessfully. I am considering saying goodbye to #1 SB b / c I am feeling vulnerable to a slip up and need to get out of the bowl after a few months (I believe this is JeezLizard's advice). I really like her though. How do I do this without feeling like a heel? Yeah, I know, I can always just evaporate. Second, has anyone resurrected a SB after a break, and if so, how was groundwork laid before and the deal closed after?[/QUOTE]The best way out of any situation is to get the other person to initiate the action you want. When a break up comes from her, it is her choice and desire and less likely to have blow-back.

So the question is how can you get her to quit you? I dunno? OP here have suggested the old cut off the sugar and see how long she lasts routine. Things got tight in your business and you have to cut back? In that case, re-establishing a connect would be possible when "things get better. " Or you could hit the jackpot and get it sugar free!

I guess another extreme one could use is that you caught an STD (something treatable). She can get tested and know it isn't her, but then be wary of seeing you again. Not sure if one could recover from this one.

But either way, she "decides" to NOT see you again and that lessens the potential for any blow back.

[QUOTE=FarFarAway;3086638]I've sought other posts on this unsuccessfully. I am considering saying goodbye to #1 SB b / c I am feeling vulnerable to a slip up and need to get out of the bowl after a few months (I believe this is JeezLizard's advice). I really like her though. How do I do this without feeling like a heel? Yeah, I know, I can always just evaporate. Second, has anyone resurrected a SB after a break, and if so, how was groundwork laid before and the deal closed after?[/QUOTE]Ceph's response covered most of the possibilities I would have suggested. I think preferred approach depends if you want to put it on hold for on occasional romp in the future versus cut ties completely. I think the most popular solution is "financial times just got really rough for me because _ ", then fill in the blank with any fabrication of reality that's unverifiable, like major client at work just parted ways or whatever. Most women that would be an SB are masters of deception, anyway, and your story doesn't need to convince them that it's true to be effective. For all they know you might have found a girl you like better.

One advantage to doing things the way I do them it is that I have left a trail of future possibilities in many cities, without really formally cutting ties with any of them. By that, I mean I never make promises when I meet them. I tell them straight up I travel and that my travel schedule dictates whether we will see each other or spend time together. I never get involved in these ongoing arrangements, which of course all start with what I consider The Devil: the up front agreement. There is no up front talk of gift amount, no promise of ongoing gift, and it is what it is. Of course I lose a few due to lack of flexibility but there's always 10 or 20 more where she came from.

So, what happens when I'm not traveling to their town? Well quite frankly they don't hear much from me and I don't hear much from them. But, the "friendship" is such that I can send them a text and say "hey I might be in your area again next week, interested? Most of the time the answer is yes. They accept a traveling daddy for what he is. Are they fucking someone else in the meantime? Of course but so am I. I think the expectation of monogamy from any hot young woman that's not living with you is unreasonable to begin with, and I suspect a lot of guys who have "exclusive" agreements with these girls aren't getting what they think they are paying for anyway.

The way I do it, nobody (including me) ever gets exactly what they want, but nobody ever gets hurt either.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;3086984]Ceph's response covered most of the possibilities I would have suggested. I think preferred approach depends if you want to put it on hold for on occasional romp in the future versus cut ties completely. I think the most popular solution is "financial times just got really rough for me because _ ", then fill in the blank with any fabrication of reality that's unverifiable, like major client at work just parted ways or whatever. Most women that would be an SB are masters of deception, anyway, and your story doesn't need to convince them that it's true to be effective. For all they know you might have found a girl you like better.

One advantage to doing things the way I do them it is that I have left a trail of future possibilities in many cities, without really formally cutting ties with any of them. By that, I mean I never make promises when I meet them. I tell them straight up I travel and that my travel schedule dictates whether we will see each other or spend time together. I never get involved in these ongoing arrangements, which of course all start with what I consider The Devil: the up front agreement. There is no up front talk of gift amount, no promise of ongoing gift, and it is what it is. Of course I lose a few due to lack of flexibility but there's always 10 or 20 more where she came from.

So, what happens when I'm not traveling to their town? Well quite frankly they don't hear much from me and I don't hear much from them. But, the "friendship" is such that I can send them a text and say "hey I might be in your area again next week, interested? Most of the time the answer is yes. They accept a traveling daddy for what he is. Are they fucking someone else in the meantime? Of course but so am I. I think the expectation of monogamy from any hot young woman that's not living with you is unreasonable to begin with, and I suspect a lot of guys who have "exclusive" agreements with these girls aren't getting what they think they are paying for anyway.

The way I do it, nobody (including me) ever gets exactly what they want, but nobody ever gets hurt either.[/QUOTE]Thanks to both of you seniors for your insight. We are supposed to be exclusive and she's not a 20-something, she's a mature single mom w / a complex life. Sure, she might be seeing someone else, but it seems unlikely just logistically.

[QUOTE=CephlapodLove;3086924]The best way out of any situation is to get the other person to initiate the action you want. When a break up comes from her, it is her choice and desire and less likely to have blow-back.

So the question is how can you get her to quit you? I dunno? OP here have suggested the old cut off the sugar and see how long she lasts routine. Things got tight in your business and you have to cut back? In that case, re-establishing a connect would be possible when "things get better. " Or you could hit the jackpot and get it sugar free!

I guess another extreme one could use is that you caught an STD (something treatable). She can get tested and know it isn't her, but then be wary of seeing you again. Not sure if one could recover from this one.

But either way, she "decides" to NOT see you again and that lessens the potential for any blow back.[/QUOTE]Anybody go with the ruse that you are in love with her and want to leave the SO and set up housekeeping? That ought to send most running.

FFA. Sorry I didn't respond to your earlier posts. Haven't been checking the forum lately, mainly because it no longer reflects my style, and my style no longer reflects what this board is about. I've changed my game pretty dramatically and geared it much more towards the style that reflects the advice I previously provided to another brother with questions about whether or not to approach a waitress. Based on the reaction from the forum, it seems like most of the members here were adverse to my advice and methods, although if I remember correctly, the brother who implemented had at least some success. At the end of the day, I've found that doing the opposite of what many advocate here has helped me to achieve the kind of sugar relationships that make me happiest.

Let me explain. I started getting bored of the SD lifestyle about a year to six months ago. HoyaSvnFgr talked about sugar fatigue in a prior post a year or so back. My situation was like that, but slightly different. I think what really sealed the deal for me was the amount of UTR's, pros, GPS, and career SBs that were joining the sugar sites; and the fact that I started to have significantly less time. Due to promotions as work, and the purchase of a few additional investment properties. It was getting more difficult to achieve what I wanted from the bowl. A year or so back, I had started swapping info with other SDs, which one enterprising SD turned into a group list of sharing. It was / is great, and while it helped significantly cut back on profiles of time wasters, I found that the list became a bit of a self contained group of brothers sharing the names of ladies who would otherwise be UTRs. Unfortunately, it didn't scratch that same itch that I had when I first entered into the bowl.

It was only until I started cross referencing names / pics / profiles from sugar sites, with other job oriented task sites that I started to realize what I really wanted. I also came across the post below from the Baltimore board that really just nailed the aspect of being a SD that I used to find so satisfying. I'm not going to try to recreate the post but a link to it should be below.

[URL]http://www.usasexguide.info/forum/showthread.php?18087-WYP-SA-and-other-SD-sites&p=2825869&viewfull=1[/URL]#post2825869.

Its post 415 by "whistles."

An amazing post right? The simple reality of it, is that the kind of experience the OP wrote about in the link above is what really made the bowl so much fun for me. Finding an innocent PYT, and then turning her into an adoring SB that gets wet when you touch her, its just an amazing experience. I've been lucky enough to have similar experiences like that more than just once, and that's the kind of experience that makes the SD lifestyle so much fun. Don't get me wrong though, I still give my go to agencies a call every now and then when they have cute new talent, and from time to time still check the BP pages for that diamond in the rough, but my game has changed dramatically over the past summer.

So my current rotation consists of a personal trainer, two "interns" that I've hired and am mentoring, as well as a cashier from a fast food restaurant near the townhouse office where I'm currently renting a room / office space. None of these babies were pulled from any sugar site, although the key to landing them was engaging them and then later figuring out that they had heard about the "sugar lifestyle" but were too shy to have every fathomed creating a profile. One intern I met via a CL listing I put up because I needed someone to help build spreadsheets and assist me with my personal investments. The other intern I met via a task job oriented site, who was more than happy to upgrade from doing random jobs for random people, to becoming my personal assistant. In more ways than one. The personal trainer I met because the office space I now rent doesn't have a shower. Since I use the office space for sugar activities (after hours when the folks from the organization I rent from are not there) doesn't have a shower, I got a membership at a local fitness facility that's open 24 hours a day. I certainly can't come home to my SO smelling like teenage pussy, and so I got a cheap membership there so that I could use their shower facilities after hours. I also started using it on the weekends when I didn't have time to use the gym in the office of the organization where I'm employed. A PYT in her mid 20's was trying to pick up some new clients, and I got the vibe that I might be able to flip her. She is now in my rotation as well. I met the cashier from the fast food restaurant (really more of a fast / casual place) when I was grabbing meals on the go.

I pulled the SBs using the same advice I provided the brother who was thinking about whether or not to pull the trigger with the waitress, along with advice I provided about how I pulled another SB from a job / task oriented site (e. G. Meet and go over their resumes, get in close, initiate "accidental" very non sexual physical contact to feel out whether becoming a SB is in the realm of possibility, etc. , I won't waste time reposting that advice since you can just click on my profile name and pull all of my prior posts and advice if you want to.

Best part about the whole situation is that the allowance I'm providing is so much less than the GPS gals I was meeting from SA and other sugar sites. More importantly, these were all pulled during the course of my regular life, and so there wasn't constant messaging back and forth, wasted time sitting at a M&G waiting for a flake to show up. I also don't have to deal with SBs that are constantly hunting for "a better daddy that will provide more sugar. " My current SBs are happy to have met an attractive guy, who is in shape, with a decent sense of humor, who has confidence, and is normal (relatively speaking for a guy who is living the sugar lifestyle). There is no question that the sugar is what keeps the relationship stable for everyone involved, but that's the price I pay for discretion. They get that.

Here's what I found to be the key to my own success. 1. Knowing that I'm not god's gift to humanity. This is key, because if you realize that you're just a guy that this young lady is banging because they're currently unattached, a nice guy, and helping them pay their bills, it will go a long way. The best way to characterize my SD relationships are mentorship agreements with a FWB twist. All of these girls in my rotation will leave me as soon as they meet a guy, but until then, they're happy that I'm making them cum, while teaching them a thing or two and providing an allowance while doing so. 2. Avoiding at all costs the clingers, crazies, nandos, etc. Its touch to spot them at first, but with time, it gets easy. Its like when you first started on BP and couldn't tell when a pic was TGTB or real, but after a few months, any monger worth his salt gets to the point where they can differentiate between the real pics and the fake pics, even if they were sleepwalking. 3. Being in control of the personal finances. My SO. Like my SBs gets her allowance. She doesn't have, or want access to the personal accounts, investment accounts, etc. I'm pretty careful to cover my tracks. 4. Having lots of personal investments on top of a high level job in a very large organization. The multiple personal investments make my finances extremely complicated. They also give me a legitimate reason to hire part time labor / interns (not that my SO knows about that, but rather because I am actually having my interns do real work). This also translates to not having much time available, and so its easy for others, like my SO, to lose track of me because I'm doing so many different things on any given day, and can potentially be at a variety of different areas at any given point in time. 5. Living in an area that's about an hour to three large major metropolitan areas with at approximately 15 different institutions of higher learning. The SB pool is large, and with so many different areas to choose from, not shi**ing where I eat is pretty easy. I live in a different area than where the office where I'm employed is, and my personal office is in a different area than my home or place of employment.

So FFA, all I can say is that the approach has worked for me (and for the other brother. If memory serves me correctly). I see that you got a lot of blowback from other brothers, and their advice should be taken for what its worth since I'm sure they've all been successful in the bowl for what they wanted. From my perspective, if what you're looking for is a fresh SB, who wouldn't normally ever consider the idea of becoming an SB, but who could be turned by the right guy, then the best way to go about it. IMHO - is to meet them in an IRL setting and first establishing trust and rapport. With regard to security and risk (yes I have an SO, and no, while I'm sure she has her suspicions, I'm going over three years strong in the SD lifestyle), each individual has their own degree of appetite for security and risk. For my part, each of my current SBs only knows me by my sugar name and the details I've shared with them are all no more than what I've shared with SBs I've pulled from SA or other sugar sites. When they need to get in touch with me, they call, text, or e-mail me on my burner, or SD e-mail account. I pay the rent for my office space via cash each month in advance and the organization I rent from is more than happy to receive it in that manner and provide me with receipts for payment.

This post is getting a little long, which I know (trust me - I know) can be annoying so if you have any specific questions about my techniques or want advice about a specific question or situation, just send me a PM. I only check this forum very infrequently since these days it is a far cry from the forum that I used to enjoy reading so much. Many of the personalities (e. G. HWG, HoyaSvnFgr, etc.) that I enjoyed no longer post here, and a few personalities have highjacked the forum by picking fights with random brothers every few weeks. Sadly its the same personalities that are picked the same fights over and over when you look at the posts that the Admin is being forced to delete. At the end of the day, I'm finding that putting my hands between the legs of a young twenty something is infinitely more satisfying than reading posts that drone on and purport to provide legal advice (which is inaccurate at best) that applies across all fifty states (most criminal laws are legislated at the state level); or advice claiming that all Asian and Latina girls share the same characteristics in common (they don't, since individual characteristics vary by race, country of origin, and ethnicity. For example, culturally an American shares as much in common with a Russian as they do with a Mexican, even though the American and Russian are "white / caucasian" while the Mexian is of Latin descent).

If I wanted to be frustrated by back and forth bickering between condescending know it alls, who have the intellectual capacity of a worm, I'll watch the presidential debate this Monday (not a commentary on any single party/candidate, but rather a commentary on both). Nowadays, I just skim the Richmond forum, read the posts that interest me, respond to posts that are worth responding to, and sit back with my popcorn and just enjoy the shenanigans. Apologies to all for venting, its just that I miss how collegial this forum used to be and the wealth of good advice and original techniques that formerly was posted here. I guess I'm just feeling old and nostalgic with fall coming around the corner.

In any case, happy sugaring gents. Fish out.

[QUOTE=FarFarAway;3085367]Yeah, that's not the situation at all. I happened to meet these girls in an office setting. If I do anything with them it will be off premises, and they will be SBs, but with the variant that they know who I am. The same motivations of anonymity will apply. Babies don't want people to know they are b / c they look like hookers to some.

The guy who ran that other racket was ILuvSmellyFish, as I posted recently. It's not my gig, I just hoped to get pointers from his approach to turning girls (he succeeded with one).[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;3024862]Keeping with my belief that the four situations outlined in prior post are the only hopes for successful long term play in the bowl, I would say it should be possible to switch one SB on or off (just know that by staying exclusively with one your likelihood of getting caught increases the longer you're with her). I guess I would just tell the SB that due to domestic issues, you need to make some changes and that it's going to be cash-and-carry for the foreseeable future. If she's had an SD before, she's likely been down that road and the concept likely won't be new to her. Then hit an ATM machine or whatever before each date.

I will say that what you'd like to do is basically incompatible with my strategies for managing addiction, because staying with one SB long-term basically feeds the addiction. This is because you're forming additional behavioral patterns and habits that are dependent on your circumstances with that one person. When you jump from girl to girl, you are less prone to develop habits -- habits that are easier for your SO to learn and use to your disadvantage. Men are creatures of habit by nature and women are masters of exploiting those habits to our disadvantage. By never staying in the comfort zone for too long, you avoid her mental targeting system from locking onto your behavior. Women stay humble when you keep them guessing, it's when they've figured you out that they know they have the upper hand and start playing that hand against you.

Unlearning existing behavior can be hard. Pushing ourselves outside our comfort zones is not fun. We just want to get laid, we don't want to necessarily think up ways to challenge ourselves. But in my opinion it's necessary for someone doing this that wants to keep their marriage or relationship in tact. That's one reason I like to take breaks from it entirely from time to time, chasing SBs while making sure things at home are adequately taken care of can be a lot of work.[/QUOTE]Rereading this for its relevance to my current dilemma. Yeah, I see your point. What about the idea of exiting by asking the SB if she wants to continue with the arrangement? There are negative points in it already for me, and I think probably for her.

First, if the slip up is with the SB, then no need to get out of the bowl, just find a new SB. If the slip up is with your SO, then taking a break can be a good idea.

Next, IMHO, the best way to say goodbye will depend on the SB. Some SBs are whip smart, and will see you lie for what it is. In those circumstances, I've found it best to just walk away. A smart gal will know your BS as soon as it comes out of your mouth. There's no way to avoid pissing off a SB in certain circumstances, and so while telling them a lie might make you feel a little better, it won't really make much of a difference with the lady.

On the other hand, I've had SBs that have made me wonder how they made it through highschool. With a young lady like that, I usually use the "hey my investments just took a major hit" line, and then tell them that I really want to see them, but can't provide the sugar at the moment. Then they have the option of no longer seeing me or providing the pussy for free.

The other alternative, if I want to cut the SB off cold and its not an issue of having remorse about the allowance, is to tell them that my SO is getting suspicious. All my SBs know that I have a SO. When I used SA, it was listed in my profile.

As for getting back together with a SB that you haven't seen for a while, the technique I use is generally the same. Even if I completely cut off a smart SB, I'll usually follow up with a message to her that my investments are back on track now, and that I would love to see them again, or that my suspicions about my SO were wrong and that she was just upset about something else.

Unless I want to reduce the sugar allowance, I've found that the SO route works when you want a SB to really stay away. I've found that 9 times out of 10, if you tell a SB that you're having money issues, and then want to reconnect with them now that your finances are back on track, the SB will want to get "backpayments" or renegotiate the allowance with the presumption that you're doing financially better now. I've also found that the SO route gives you more control and acts as a way to truly keep a jilted SB from coming back around. Since the headache of a crazy wife is generally enough to keep a SB at bay.

I tend to use the investment problems line when I'm waivering about whether to truly cut a lady from my rotation, because by coming back with a higher allowance, I'm almost guaranteed to bring her back into the fold. So to speak.

Just my two cents. Fish out.

[QUOTE=FarFarAway;3086638]I've sought other posts on this unsuccessfully. I am considering saying goodbye to #1 SB b / c I am feeling vulnerable to a slip up and need to get out of the bowl after a few months (I believe this is JeezLizard's advice). I really like her though. How do I do this without feeling like a heel? Yeah, I know, I can always just evaporate. Second, has anyone resurrected a SB after a break, and if so, how was groundwork laid before and the deal closed after?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=IluvSmellyFish;3087221] ....

In any case, happy sugaring gents. Fish out.[/QUOTE]Fish I appreciate your view point. I'm incredibly impressed you've been able to hire interns without giving up any personal information. Having beaten back more than my fair share of stalkers who were able to piece together a few bread crumbs, I'd love to hear more about you can so successfully compartmentalize. I also have a number of investments, businesses, and I've not a clue how to get interns to help with that work without giving away personal information. Anything you can share is greatly appreciated.

[QUOTE=BikeRider;3087624]Fish I appreciate your view point. I'm incredibly impressed you've been able to hire interns without giving up any personal information. Having beaten back more than my fair share of stalkers who were able to piece together a few bread crumbs, I'd love to hear more about you can so successfully compartmentalize. I also have a number of investments, businesses, and I've not a clue how to get interns to help with that work without giving away personal information. Anything you can share is greatly appreciated.[/QUOTE]I didn't see the original message, but I'll play captain obvious here for a moment to point out that the only way to hire an employee and have no link to your identity is to pay them under the table. Under reported taxes by the employee are often viewed as tax negligence, but when it's done by the employer it's usually regarded as tax fraud. So now the SB can hold a felony over your head if she doesn't get her way.

One of the most catastrophically bad ideas I've even heard of in this forum. Hiring an SB for legit employment and risking the sexual harassment aspect is batting at one level of bad ideas, but paying an SB under the table for actual employment tasks (as opposed to dating gifts) is a next-level bad idea.

Like I said, I didn't see the original message so I have no idea of what was said, but considering the history of past advice in this forum, it shouldn't take a lot of thinking to figure out that an employee either gets a W2 or she doesn't. If she doesn't, she's only an SB and not an employee (and unless she's had traumatic brain injury she will certainly realize the difference).

[QUOTE=FarFarAway;3087230]Rereading this for its relevance to my current dilemma. Yeah, I see your point. What about the idea of exiting by asking the SB if she wants to continue with the arrangement? There are negative points in it already for me, and I think probably for her.[/QUOTE]If you want to continue to see her, but on a less frequent basis (in order to maintain a smokescreen from the SO), I would just throw that possibility out there and tell her this is your preference. Most of the time, a financial hiccup (assuming that's the reason you give her) is not a matter of total bankruptcy, so you can always say you just need to downsize your time with her for a while, cutting it to a fraction of what it was. At least I think that's what you're asking? I wouldn't ask her if she'd like to continue if that's not your intention, I would just create the space with no real time frame in mind.

Convey a feeling of stress and hopelessness about your new financial dilemma, and you'd be surprised at how effective it is at pushing her away. Even wives who are very much in love with their husbands always seem to leave them when the chips are down financially. You very rarely hear of a woman asking for separation or divorce right after the hubby just got a huge promotion or a windfall of cash. They wait until the chips are down to decide to quit while they are ahead, then kick us when we are down. LOL.

Hey guys. Looking at an arrangement with an apartment as part of the deal. Anyone had any success with this? Thinking of a sublet situation so that I am not caught up in any other activity that might go on while I'm not around. Already knows my I'd so not a and issue. Maybe more a mistress than SB situation, but I thought this would be a good place to ask.

Thanks. I've also posted in the Raleigh forum but no responses. Med.

[QUOTE=MedJohnson;3088167]Hey guys. Looking at an arrangement with an apartment as part of the deal. Anyone had any success with this? Thinking of a sublet situation so that I am not caught up in any other activity that might go on while I'm not around. Already knows my I'd so not a and issue. Maybe more a mistress than SB situation, but I thought this would be a good place to ask.[/QUOTE]An apartment to take one girl (or many) to regularly, where you're the only one with the key? Or as a place to live for the SB?

I wouldn't let her live there, personally. A case that will illustrate. A couple of years ago I met a girl and she said she needed to talk to me on the phone right away to explain things (something I don't often do until I know them better). So I called her, and she was about as full-on Nando as they get. She said she had an SD for about 1. 5 years that put her up in an apartment. He was married, but for whatever reason after some time he decided he'd had enough and it was on to the next SB, so he told her they were done and she needed to move out of the place, he stopped paying rent and electric bill. Well by that time her life is completely dependent on the arrangement, so she had no where to go. They could not evict her immediately, days turn to weeks, she was living with no electricity or lights all. She still had water though, and she said at the first possible opportunity she was going to seal off the overflow drain on the bathtub and flood the place after she got her stuff out, just to pay him back.

I have no idea how it turned out, as I separated myself from that situation promptly. But even if she did not damage the place, he still now has an eviction on his rap sheet whether he realizes it or not. What's more, even if the arrangement had not taken a turn for the worse, the fact that he put the apartment in his name in the first place means there is an easily traceable credit / employment check, should the SB want to get a hold of him at work or if the wife should decide to investigate what he does on his free time.

Moral of the story is if you're looking for a place for her to live, don't put it in your name, or try to find a sublet situation like you said.

Renting a place for a convenient secondary FC may not be a bad idea though, just don't leave her there unattended.

[QUOTE=MedJohnson;3088167]Hey guys. Looking at an arrangement with an apartment as part of the deal. Anyone had any success with this? Thinking of a sublet situation so that I am not caught up in any other activity that might go on while I'm not around. Already knows my I'd so not a and issue. Maybe more a mistress than SB situation, but I thought this would be a good place to ask.

Thanks. I've also posted in the Raleigh forum but no responses. Med.[/QUOTE]I have another story to add to JL's experience. I had a rental in a developing area (slum). I put an "SB" in with biweekly requirement to service the landlord. At first she had one excuse after another to avoid me, and I was limited by my own schedule. After awhile she moved at least one worthless BF in with her. Since I have an SO I was reluctant to move against her aggressively. I finally got her ass out and will never again do that. Tenants have all the rights even if everything is on the legal up and up. What are you going to do -take her to court?

Hey Bike. Hope your adventures in the bowl have been fun filled. The trick to my success isn't with anything that I do, but rather in who I select. I've pulled my fair share of stalkers and crazies during the days when I using SA and have gotten pretty good at filtering them. In terms of characteristics, a few red flags for me are:

1. Older; 2. Attend higher end schools / grad students; 3. Give the impression that they are entitled / privileged; 4. Inability to remove themselves from social media; 5. More than 1,000 friends / followers on whatever social media sites they have profiles on; 6. overdeveloped sense of ego; etc.

The characteristics I look for are:

1. Younger; 2. Comes from a blue collar background; 3. Not reliant on parents for paying for school; 4. Genuine appreciation for something as small as buying coffee for them at the interview; 5. True desire for mentorship; 6. obedient/submissive - is good at doing what their told; etc.

My two current interns are happy to get paid $15 an hour for any projects that I assign to them. These are discrete tasks, and I dictate the amount of hours that I think they should be spending on them. For example, if I get a call from a tenant at one of my rental properties and the fridge is broken, I get the tenant to provide me with the dimensions of the fridge. Then I call one of my interns and tell her that I need her to find a fridge that matches the exact dimensions; has the replacement characteristics that I want (e. G. Icemaker, water dispenser, etc.), and is the lowest cost. I'll also tell her to check all the major big box stores and online to get the best deal. Then I'll tell her to spend 3 hours on the task and to send me a spreadsheet that breaks down at least 4 different refrigerators that fit the criteria I need and the cost of each fridge from Home Depot, Lowes, Sears, and Amazon. Depending on the rental, I might choose a higher end fridge to match the investment, or might just go with the cheapest model.

She's gaining life skills (e. G. Why you should always shop around before you buy; how to build a spreadsheet; etc.). You'd be surprised how many young people nowadays lack these basic skills or don't realize the potential savings you can make by shopping around. I personally don't have time to shop around for a new fridge in one of my rentals; I don't want my tenant to buy a "gold plated" fridge to replace the one that is broken; and so the intern adds real value. By paying $45 bucks, I save $200; spend time talking to my "intern," and then all I have to do is order the appliance from the store and have it delivered.

Those are the kinds of projects that I assign. They don't provide any real information, but provide value to me.

With regard to the initial meeting. The same rules I used when pulling babies from SA apply to my situation now. When posting CL ads, or putting a flyer at a local community college; etc. , I'll include my SD name, and my SD e-mail address. The post will request that interested applicants send me an e-mail providing a copy of their resume and their phone number. I use the phone number and name to pull their facebook page / twitter / etc. Which gives me enough information to determine whether they get granted an interview. Its amazing how much information some people post on their social media accounts. Then during the interview, I check them out.

During the interview, the information they get is all the same as I would give during a more "traditional" meet and greet. The technique I use is generally the same I describe in my post about interviewing applicants pulled from task oriented job websites (just click my profile name and search through to find that post). After the projects / assignments start rolling in, my current interns have become comfortable that I am who I say I am. They were also carefully culled from a larger pool (I've gone through a large number of interviews, and a large number of interns. Many only received one or two projects because they didn't fit the mold I was looking for, had too many questions, etc.). Both my current interns were "broken in" after first assigning them 2/3 projects and a number of conversations where I established rapport, and figured out whether they would fit what I was looking for.

I started the SD / SB aspect of the relationship with my current intern SB rotation after taking them out to dinner to thank them for a project, joked during the meal that the waitress probably thinks I'm your sugar daddy, which then inevitably led to a conversation about the sugar world; how I used to play in it, and then how they either had a profile for a short time but deactivated it, or how they wanted to create one, but was too scared to do so. After that, turning them into a SB was easy.

Don't get me wrong. The whole process took a ton of work. I'm not some self-absorbed narcissist who thinks that he's god's gift to women. I'm a semi-decent looking guy, who is in shape, and can make a gal laugh. SA's popularity; the MTV show: True Life "I'm a sugar baby," and the loose morals as well as the strong tendency today for girls to believe they should be able to have sex with as many guys as they want, are key. Also, I've encountered a ton of failure. For example, I interviewed one young lady and when I pulled my chair next to hers to go over her resume, she initiated touching, came in close, purposely brushed her hair and her leg against mine. I thought she was a shoe in for my rotation. After developing great rapport and after her third project, I took her out to dinner at a nice restaurant to celebrate. She was super flirty until I laid out my joke about how if we kept laughing and flirting like we were during dinner, the waitstaff was going to think she was my sugar baby. Instead of laughing and the evening taking the direction that I thought it would. She shut down and became extremely uncomfortable. I got the impression that she was one of those girls that uses sex to get jobs, but had no desire to take things to the next level. I cut her from the rotation after she did a crappy job on the last assignment I gave to her.

My current babies are fabulous. They were all so eager to start the relationship, that I was floored. It was very much like the post that whistles wrote (the one I included in my prior post). Most importantly, it became pretty clear to me that for them, having a little bit of mystery and not oversharing my entire life or being slightly dodgy about all the details of my life, adds to the mystery for them and makes them even wetter when I call them in to discuss a project.

If you have any other questions about anything else, or specific questions, just PM me.

[QUOTE=BikeRider;3087624]Fish I appreciate your view point. I'm incredibly impressed you've been able to hire interns without giving up any personal information. Having beaten back more than my fair share of stalkers who were able to piece together a few bread crumbs, I'd love to hear more about you can so successfully compartmentalize. I also have a number of investments, businesses, and I've not a clue how to get interns to help with that work without giving away personal information. Anything you can share is greatly appreciated.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=FredMoore;3088392]I have another story to add to JL's experience. I had a rental in a developing area (slum). I put an "SB" in with biweekly requirement to service the landlord. At first she had one excuse after another to avoid me, and I was limited by my own schedule. After awhile she moved at least one worthless BF in with her. Since I have an SO I was reluctant to move against her aggressively. I finally got her ass out and will never again do that. Tenants have all the rights even if everything is on the legal up and up. What are you going to do -take her to court?[/QUOTE]Yes, I'm looking for a place for a SB to live so I can drop in to visit. Hoping this situation might be more appealing to a SB with no actual exchange occurring. Will have to keep trying to sort it out.

Thanks again.

Med.

Presumably, you were going to put the lease / sublease in your name? If so, bad idea. Instead to avoid problems just have her put her name on the lease / sublease. Then let her know that you'll provide her with the funds to cover or help cover the rent.

If she balks and says that she wants you to put your name on the legal docs, then tell her that you'll front the security deposit. Go with her to the leasing office / meeting with landlord, and then pay the deposit in cash.

If the problem is that her credit won't allow for her to have the lease / sublease in her name, than tell the leasing agent / landlord that she is willing to pay a higher security deposit, first month's rent, and / or last month's rent. As a landlord, I'll take a crappy credit risk in exchange for security deposit, first month's rent, and last month's rent since I know I have three months to go through the eviction process and not have to worry about paying the debt service on the investment.

The advice above all presumes that you have the money to do this (I'm presuming you do if you're willing to put the lease in your name) and that you have a pre-existing relationship with the SB. If that's the case, then you've pretty much cemented her reliance on you, and you've completely eliminated hotel costs while guaranteeing that she will be calling you at the end of the month so that she can suck daddy's d*ck for next month's rent money.

On the other hand, fi that's not the case and you don't have a prior relationship, than caveat emptor (not legal advice, just Latin for buyer beware). There are plenty of tales from this forum that detail SDs getting rinsed or going through hell and back because of bad decisions.

[QUOTE=MedJohnson;3088167]Hey guys. Looking at an arrangement with an apartment as part of the deal. Anyone had any success with this? Thinking of a sublet situation so that I am not caught up in any other activity that might go on while I'm not around. Already knows my I'd so not a and issue. Maybe more a mistress than SB situation, but I thought this would be a good place to ask.

Thanks. I've also posted in the Raleigh forum but no responses. Med.[/QUOTE]

Just to clarify, when I ask my "interns" (I've been putting quotes around them for a reason) to do "project / assignment" for me, I provide the guidance on what I'm looking for, and the number of hours I expect the job / task to be finished. My "interns" do the work from their homes, from their own computers, and by a certain deadline. Its also why I make the final decision about what fridge to buy and what store to buy it from.

By keeping key parts of information from my "interns" it protects my identity and makes them more of a "contractor" than an "employee" that I control. Also, because I only provide a few discrete tasks from week to week, the number of hours they work are limited. I make it up to them by paying $15 an hour.

Then they cum to me in my office after a "project/assignment" is completed, and for the purposes of thanking them for a job well done.

The most important aspect of this is finding someone who doesn't have the personality type that will result in severe negative blowback. I've found that in my younger, more foolish days, when I used to think I was god's gift to humanity, I couldn't differentiate well, had real difficulty reading people, and so had to be more careful. Hubris and arrogance can do that to a narcissist. At the end of the day though, doesn't matter if you've done anything wrong or anything that could result in real legal trouble, because if you choose the wrong baby - the simple fact that they think you did something wrong, or if they think that you've done something illegal, you've lost - irrespective of whether you did or not.

Having a cop show up to your door to investigate a crime that doesn't exist and that you didn't commit can destroy your life just as easily as if you did do something wrong. At the end of the day, success in the bowl means choosing your SBs carefully and forcing your little head to listen to your big one.

I won't browbeat anyone with pseudo legal advice, so here is the link so folks can make their own independent decisions and judgments about the reporting requirements that might come with asking someone to perform a discrete task or project on your behalf.

[URL]https://www.irs.gov/uac/employment-taxes-and-classifying-workers[/URL]

Behavioral control.

Financial control.

Type of relationship.

Behavioral control relates to whether the business has a right to direct and control how the worker performs the task for which they are hired. In general, anyone who performs services for you is your employee if you can control what will be done and how it will be done. This is so even when you give the employee freedom of action. What matters is that the employer has the right to control the details of how the services are performed. Such details include:

When and where to do the work.

What tools or equipment to use.

What workers to hire or to assist with the work.

Where to purchase supplies and services.

What work must be performed by a specified individual.

What order or sequence to follow.

An eviction will not show up in any sort of criminal report. At worst, an eviction will result in a negative report on your credit. And only if you put your name on the lease. If you're going to put a baby up in a room, then make sure its in her name not yours.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;3087646]I didn't see the original message, but I'll play captain obvious here for a moment to point out that the only way to hire an employee and have no link to your identity is to pay them under the table. Under reported taxes by the employee are often viewed as tax negligence, but when it's done by the employer it's usually regarded as tax fraud. So now the SB can hold a felony over your head if she doesn't get her way.

One of the most catastrophically bad ideas I've even heard of in this forum. Hiring an SB for legit employment and risking the sexual harassment aspect is batting at one level of bad ideas, but paying an SB under the table for actual employment tasks (as opposed to dating gifts) is a next-level bad idea.

Like I said, I didn't see the original message so I have no idea of what was said, but considering the history of past advice in this forum, it shouldn't take a lot of thinking to figure out that an employee either gets a W2 or she doesn't. If she doesn't, she's only an SB and not an employee (and unless she's had traumatic brain injury she will certainly realize the difference).[/QUOTE]There are no shortage of ideas in the bowl. Some good, some bad, but the key is each brother needs to decide what is right for him. Fish has developed a routine that works for and is comfortable for him. I want to hear how he manages his routine so I can learn and apply in my routine if it fits.

As for paying under the table, welcome to the real world. The vast majority of our economy (at the low end) works under the table. I don't expect to get nominated for the supreme court nor run for public office, and so this is something that might work for me. Sure, the SB could report you to the IRS but she'd be hurt more on the penalty for not reporting income and paying taxes. None of us are big enough fish for the feds to give her immunity.

Finally, I agree that the hiring as a W2 employee is a bad idea. W9 contractors have a much more difficult time proving sexual harassment (at least according to my lawyers YMMV). Can she still create a shit storm, yes. I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. I just spend a shit load on them each year to keep my a$$ out of trouble.

Again. We all have our comfort level for various situations. I love this forum because it is an open mic for us to share.

Great post, and agree with you on all points but your last. Over time this forum has become less and less of an open mic for all to share. If you go back through the thread, you'll note that too often over the past two years Admin has had to jump in and delete posts that could be characterized as less than congenial. You'll also notice a running theme to all the deleted posts.

[QUOTE=BikeRider;3088534]There are no shortage of ideas in the bowl. Some good, some bad, but the key is each brother needs to decide what is right for him. Fish has developed a routine that works for and is comfortable for him. I want to hear how he manages his routine so I can learn and apply in my routine if it fits.

As for paying under the table, welcome to the real world. The vast majority of our economy (at the low end) works under the table. I don't expect to get nominated for the supreme court nor run for public office, and so this is something that might work for me. Sure, the SB could report you to the IRS but she'd be hurt more on the penalty for not reporting income and paying taxes. None of us are big enough fish for the feds to give her immunity.

Finally, I agree that the hiring as a W2 employee is a bad idea. W9 contractors have a much more difficult time proving sexual harassment (at least according to my lawyers YMMV). Can she still create a shit storm, yes. I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. I just spend a shit load on them each year to keep my a$$ out of trouble.

Again. We all have our comfort level for various situations. I love this forum because it is an open mic for us to share.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=IluvSmellyFish;3088508]An eviction will not show up in any sort of criminal report. At worst, an eviction will result in a negative report on your credit. And only if you put your name on the lease. If you're going to put a baby up in a room, then make sure its in her name not yours.[/QUOTE]An eviction would not be in criminal court, it would be in Civil Court. That is if one follows the proper procedures and gets the courts involved to evict the the person. Civil Cases are searchable as well as criminal ones. If you are the lessee and she defaults on the lease, then yes, your credit will take a hit as well as potentially having the civil record showing the default.

The point is that it makes sense to avoid becoming a landlord to a SB or letting her use a place you rent. If you are the landlord and try to evict her, just imagine if she shows up at the Civil Court and testifies as to a sexual relationship that is understood as compensation for the rent. Then your SB activity is memorialized in the court record! Don; t think she will do it? Se the post by OP who mentioned that the SB planned to flood the apartment on her eviction. How about if she smashes up all of the fixtures in the bathroom, ruins the carpets, spary paints the walls, lets a dog mess all over the place? Remember H*ll hath no fury like a woman scorned!

[QUOTE=BikeRider;3088534]
As for paying under the table, welcome to the real world. The vast majority of our economy (at the low end) works under the table. I don't expect to get nominated for the supreme court nor run for public office, and so this is something that might work for me. Sure, the SB could report you to the IRS but she'd be hurt more on the penalty for not reporting income and paying taxes. None of us are big enough fish for the feds to give her immunity.
[/QUOTE]No doubt a lot of tipped employees don't report cash, if that's what you mean. Beyond that, my career is not directly involved with the low-end, so I can't tell anyone how the other half lives other than to say that if all of these restaurants and low level service jobs were truly paying their employees exclusively under the table, they would not be in business for more than a year or two. Most employees that have some level of their income going unreported do simultaneously have some of their income reported and are on the books as an employee one way or another. My point wasn't to examine how much income is reported versus how much is not, my point was that for them to employ the staff at all, at some point they have to acknowledge that staff member as an employee with the IRS and fill out the proper paperwork. This would be a bad idea for an SD from the sexual harassment angle and from the basis of your original question which was how to do this and keep your identity hidden. Most of those employees you refer to at the low-end know EXACTLY who their boss is, where he lives, who is wife is, and in many cases what pushes his buttons.

If an employers ultimate goal is to hire that employee exclusively to fuck them, then doing so is the bad idea I was referring to. Paying them legitimately makes you vulnerable in the sense that your involvement with them is documentable and tied to your identity. Paying them under the table makes you vulnerable in the sense that they now have leverage to use against you if for some reason the arrangement should go sideways. My comment was not applicable to a guy who runs a small-project construction business hiring a few illegals under the table, it was geared toward the typical SD (who typically has an SO to hide all of this from).

To clarify, when I spoke of it being a bad idea I did not mean in the sense that anyone would go to jail for paying an SB under the table or that anyone would catch the attention of feds. I was saying that the average SD does not need the stress of an SB dangling the possible reporting of a felony over his head, should she decide to use that as leverage against him. Sprinkle a dose of sexual harassment in with a little tax fraud, and you never know who might knock on your door one day when you least want the wife to know about it. Regardless of actual legal consequences, nobody needs that kind of hassle. To ever give an SB that sort of leverage is losing dominant control of the relationship. That was my point, even if I didn't explain it very thoroughly the first time around.

But at the end of the day it's just my opinion, and I wouldn't ask anyone to necessarily subscribe to it.

When I read your message, I believed you were alluding to the idea of having an SB that gets an allowance in addition to actual employment. Paying her a cash allowance that covers both "dating" and whatever other tasks she is doing for you is not the same as making her an employee of one of your businesses. I do realize you didn't say that's what you necessarily wanted to do, just telling you that's what I read into it. What it really seems you want is a way to hire someone under the table to work with your businesses and investments without revealing your identity? If so, then I'd still say it's potentially asking for trouble to be fucking that person in any capacity, but again it's just my opinion and I'm not trying to force it on anyone. I personally wouldn't let anyone touch my personal investments who was interested in an illegal payroll arrangement, but that's just me.

[QUOTE=CephlapodLove;3088592]An eviction would not be in criminal court, it would be in Civil Court. That is if one follows the proper procedures and gets the courts involved to evict the the person. Civil Cases are searchable as well as criminal ones. If you are the lessee and she defaults on the lease, then yes, your credit will take a hit as well as potentially having the civil record showing the default.

The point is that it makes sense to avoid becoming a landlord to a SB or letting her use a place you rent. If you are the landlord and try to evict her, just imagine if she shows up at the Civil Court and testifies as to a sexual relationship that is understood as compensation for the rent. Then your SB activity is memorialized in the court record! Don; t think she will do it? Se the post by OP who mentioned that the SB planned to flood the apartment on her eviction. How about if she smashes up all of the fixtures in the bathroom, ruins the carpets, spary paints the walls, lets a dog mess all over the place? Remember H*ll hath no fury like a woman scorned![/QUOTE]Getting an eviction on his record could be very bad for a married man. Imagine if his career suddenly takes him to another state, where he needs to pack up the wife and kids and rent a new place in that state. Oh? What's this? Can't find an apartment or home within a 100 mile radius of the new job due to that nasty eviction on your record? That ought to be fun to explain to the wife. Not to mention as you said, if the wife gets suspicious and investigates, the data about the eviction (including the name of the other girl on the lease, which most apartments require) would be some of the first information available to her.

It's the kind of logic like an "eviction on the record is nothing to worry about" that reminds me of one of the reasons why I placed certain individuals on ignore. Secondary reasons of course to the relentless, stalking / harassing PMs they were sending me, but good reasons nonetheless.

[QUOTE=IluvSmellyFish;3088552]Great post, and agree with you on all points but your last. Over time this forum has become less and less of an open mic for all to share. If you go back through the thread, you'll note that too often over the past two years Admin has had to jump in and delete posts that could be characterized as less than congenial. You'll also notice a running theme to all the deleted posts.[/QUOTE]You are right. I was hoping to point us back in the right direction where we help one an another and respect alternative view points.

[QUOTE=BikeRider;3088604]You are right. I was hoping to point us back in the right direction where we help one an another and respect alternative view points.[/QUOTE]For the record, I do respect your viewpoints, I'm just offering mine. And, he is not right. The messages that have been deleted here were deleted because I reported them to Admin2. If you don't believe, ask Admin2.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;3088598]
When I read your message, I believed you were alluding to the idea of having an SB that gets an allowance in addition to actual employment. Paying her a cash allowance that covers both "dating" and whatever other tasks she is doing for you is not the same as making her an employee of one of your businesses. I do realize you didn't say that's what you necessarily wanted to do, just telling you that's what I read into it. What it really seems you want is a way to hire someone under the table to work with your businesses and investments without revealing your identity? If so, then I'd still say it's potentially asking for trouble to be fucking that person in any capacity, but again it's just my opinion and I'm not trying to force it on anyone. I personally wouldn't let anyone touch my personal investments who was interested in an illegal payroll arrangement, but that's just me.[/QUOTE]I was only seeking to learn Fish's approach. I was pretty sure it wouldn't apply to me, but it might help someone else here.

Sadly, I don't have work that I can hand-off to an "intern" without also exposing to much personal information. I also have an incredible 'chief of staff' that would bust me in minutes about unreported contractor payments, or such. It sucks, but it is exactly why I pay her so well.

Cephlapod. We're in agreement here. IMHO, if you want to lock down a SB with a room / place of her own, best way to do it is to have her name on the lease and then to provide her with lavish cash gifts in the amount of her rent. She can do with it what she wants. If you've got a good history with a SB, then its a great way to lock her down since you're pretty much guaranteed to have that young lady calling you at the end of the month when rent is due.

Pick the wrong SB, and it doesn't matter that her name is on the lease. She'll be evicted in a month's time and will be hounding you for another room. Only her credit will be screwed because of the eviction and then the landlord / leasing office will require security, first months rent, and last month's rent to put the place in her name or will require you to co-sign for her. Then you're in a pretty bad spot.

The point of my last post was to correct any misinformation getting evicted will create a rap sheet for someone. As you correctly point out, an eviction is a civil and not a criminal matter. Also, to be over technical on my end, in many jurisdictions (depending on the state and even down to the municipality or city) landlord / tenant disputes are handled by a forum specifically designed to hear those kinds of cases. And so while the matter is considered a civil rather than criminal proceeding (as you accurately point out), the matter may not be heard by what one normally considers to be a civil court. Philadelphia, a city I believe you are familiar with, has such a forum specifically designated for landlord / tenant disputes.

The long and the short of it is that it appears that we agree to agree. If you see my response to the OP's initial question, you'll note that I recommended that he put the room in the SB's name. I followed up with the additional advice in keeping with the idea that this forum is a place where folks share advice, and thought best to clear up any potential misinformation that might affect OP's decisions.

Also, as an aside, at the end of the day, I would never put a SB into any of my rental units because then there's not even the veneer of anonymity. Sure, my SBs could pull my license plate off my car when we go for a ride, or could follow me, or have me followed after a date. I hope I pick them wisely enough to avoid from having a crazy gal do that. I also agree with you that hell hath no fury like a woman's scorn, which is why I play my game using the techniques I've refined over time, and have done so with varying degrees of success. That all being said, the day that I ever consider putting a SB into a rental property that I own is the day that my SO leaves me because I slipped up somewhere. I'm hoping that doesn't happen anytime soon.

[QUOTE=CephlapodLove;3088592]An eviction would not be in criminal court, it would be in Civil Court. That is if one follows the proper procedures and gets the courts involved to evict the the person. Civil Cases are searchable as well as criminal ones. If you are the lessee and she defaults on the lease, then yes, your credit will take a hit as well as potentially having the civil record showing the default.

The point is that it makes sense to avoid becoming a landlord to a SB or letting her use a place you rent. If you are the landlord and try to evict her, just imagine if she shows up at the Civil Court and testifies as to a sexual relationship that is understood as compensation for the rent. Then your SB activity is memorialized in the court record! Don; t think she will do it? Se the post by OP who mentioned that the SB planned to flood the apartment on her eviction. How about if she smashes up all of the fixtures in the bathroom, ruins the carpets, spary paints the walls, lets a dog mess all over the place? Remember H*ll hath no fury like a woman scorned![/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=BikeRider;3088611]I was only seeking to learn Fish's approach. I was pretty sure it wouldn't apply to me, but it might help someone else here. Sadly, I don't have work that I can hand-off to an "intern" without also exposing to much personal information. I also have an incredible 'chief of staff' that would bust me in minutes about unreported contractor payments, or such. It sucks, but it is exactly why I pay her so well.[/QUOTE]Well part of the problem with public conversations is that anyone can read them and respond. Sorry if you didn't like my responses, or exclusively wanted to hear from someone else, but I do wish you wouldn't take them personally or in a way that's defensive. If the goal is collective learning, then everyone should have access to as many opinions as possible, mine and anyone else's, in making their decisions. That's what differentiates public thread conversations from PMs. You might engage him there? He's a big fan of PMs, I couldn't get him to stop spamming mine.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;3088614]Well part of the problem with public conversations is that anyone can read them and respond. Sorry if you didn't like my responses, or exclusively wanted to hear from someone else, but I do wish you wouldn't take them personally or in a way that's defensive. If the goal is collective learning, then everyone should have access to as many opinions as possible, mine and anyone else's, in making their decisions. That's what differentiates public thread conversations from PMs. You might engage him there? He's a big fan of PMs, I couldn't get him to stop spamming mine.[/QUOTE]I agree completely that everyone should be able to provide their opinion. It is up to each of us individually to decide if the opinion is useful or not. We all bring something different to the table, and the sole purpose of this forum is to share. This is a community of sorts and we need to support each other and encourage discussion.

Ever consider hiring a personal assistant or personal shopper? Completely unrelated to your work and to help you with personal life tasks. That's for the most part of what intern #2 does for me. I can't remember if I mentioned it or not, but "intern #2" was initially pulled from a menial task/job oriented site and started out by doing menial personal tasks for me. Also I agree with your real world analysis. At the end of the day, $15 an hour, and 3-5 hours a week of "work" ends up amounting to chump change. Also, now that the summer is gone and the girls are back to school, they have almost no free time and so our visits are generally romantic in nature. Its just that they started out in a work context. I'd say that during this summer, they probably made in the low three figures.

I'm not a federal agent so I can't speak to whether the government would open an investigation to address tax payments on a few hundred dollars. I guess everyone has their own risk tolerance though. As you said in your prior post, can't imagine that a SB would significantly lie about how much more she was paid than she actually was to get the interest of someone with the authority to do something - because that would place her in the awkward situation of probably paying backtaxes on a significantly larger amount than she probably made. On the other hand, can you imagine the look on the persons face if they received a call from someone trying to report that you didn't pay their taxes for $300 worth of "work" performed over the course of a few months? Not sure if any agency wants to spend their resources chasing down a claim for a few hundred dollars. That's also why if a "intern" or "personal assistant" isn't going to work out, they get cut after 1 or 2 projects.

From my perspective my method is was a great way to weed out the scammers, nandos, and GPS SBs that are now all trolling the sugar sites. Nothing like tapping into the dark desires of a PYT who wants so badly to star in their own little version of 50 Shades of Grey or Mad Men. Also, there isn't any need for me to do anything that would be even remotely considered sexual harassment since most of the young ladies these days are so comfortable with their own sexuality. The flip side of that of course is that even if I didn't do anything that could be considered sexual harassment, any woman I work with could make up a lie to make my life difficult. The key is finding someone that won't do that.

Also, my method greatly increases the in person meet and greet numbers. Gone are the days of the 85 % chance that a POT isn't going to show up. Now I've found that most of my meetings have a 85% chance of the intern actually showing up. The mindset is completely different. Also, my prior moneybowl post confirmed that once I got them to show up and could prove that I wasn't a complete creeper and just a normal, semi-decent looking guy who could make them laugh, my chances of taking them to the FC improved considerably. Don't get me wrong, I've done a ton of interviews, but the back and forth of showing up for a meeting and having someone flake is much less likely now.

Based on your posts, I suspect you're pretty good at reading people, and I also suspect that you treat your SBs well. I've found that when you find the right SB, and treat them well, even if you completely disappear on them, they don't hold it against you. Every one of my prior SBs have either assumed that something terribly bad happened to me, that I was found out by my SO, or is just completely confused. Early on, I had a few that were completely pissed off and angry, but that was more because I ended up in arrangements with entitled young self-absorbed babies who thought I owed them something beyond treating them well, making them cum, and giving them a nice allowance. I let my little head tell my big head that they were too hot to pass up. Now that I have a careful selection criteria, I've found that while I don't always pull the hottest babies with the best bodies, the relationship with them is so much more fun, less stress filled, and they are so much more appreciative.

Just my two cents on what's worked for me.

[QUOTE=BikeRider;3088611]I was only seeking to learn Fish's approach. I was pretty sure it wouldn't apply to me, but it might help someone else here.

Sadly, I don't have work that I can hand-off to an "intern" without also exposing to much personal information. I also have an incredible 'chief of staff' that would bust me in minutes about unreported contractor payments, or such. It sucks, but it is exactly why I pay her so well.[/QUOTE]