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[QUOTE=Hinode]
My question is, why is she callin me still.
[/QUOTE]
I've read your posts. You're an OG. I believe you already know the answer.
You are the customer. You are the source of her income. This is what she does for a living. Based on past posts, she probably also feels comfortable with you. Since she is in a new place, she's calling on her regulars. They all do this.
[QUOTE=HawaiiJoe]
Sometimes I just want to have a drink and relax in a place with some nice eye candy. So tell me. Is it acceptable to visit a KB and just drink without a woman? I would like to go and check things out and see what's there before buying drinks right away. Is it better to sit at the bar in that case?
I have no problem buying drinks and enjoying time with company, but I like to look around before. See how the different ladies treat the men first. Would it be ok to just have a couple beers and leave without having anyone join me?
[/QUOTE]
Sure. In fact if you ask any "bar-dori" (KB slang for mongers), this is a basic tactic. Keep it on the DL and you can find out the rhythm of the place and whether it's even worth the hassle. Don't just watch the girls, though. Check your competition's tactics. When you have the luxury of detachment, you will be amazed at how easy it is to spot the other guy's mistakes. You can hear the lines that will just make you cringe. Scratch that one off your list.
The KB scene is not brain surgery. I once read a weight loss tip that translates to this scenario. Don't go grocery shopping while you are hungry. Translated: Don't go to a KB horny and/or desperate.
Good luck.
[QUOTE=Iliketowatch][QUOTE=Pendoko]Now my other friend just met that new girl that works at Maya's and bang her and he told me she is psycho.
Wow your friend works fast! My buddy bought Yong (is that her?, from LA) a couple of drinks in hopes of getting in her pants. Good to hear upfront that she a whacko. ... [/QUOTE]Was it Yong? Just wondering because she lives with mama. So it would be unusual for her to be allowed to go out with a customer after hours. Just my observation of new girls that have lived with the mama.
[QUOTE=Twitch26]I agree with you on that 69, it sucks to come up short at the end of the night than you originally planned. If you buy a girl a drink and she takes one sip then says i be right back, then she probably has another customer or more, so with that said don't waste your time competing with the other guy. Look for the ones that dont have a customer already those are easy getters and cost a lot less.[/QUOTE]You learn from experience. Actually, if you watch the girl and the customer she was with doesn't leave his booth then she is probably taking a break and will go back to him if she can't find another customer. If you don't seem like someone who will spend a lot on the girl she will drink fast and ask for another, if you say no she will be back with the first guy in a flash.
For me, if she leaves a customer and he doesn't leave and she comes up to me, I will decline and see what she does. She will probably go looking for another sucker before going back to the original customer to take his money if she can't find another customer.
Edward King, I usually will open a tab if I want to go to the room with a girl and/or if I don't have the funds to pay in cash. I make sure that I don't get drunk (but will try to get the girl to do the drinking) so I make sure that I am only charged for what I spent. I have had instances where there were extra charges on my bill, once a girl tried to bring in another girl, the other girl brought in her drink with her but I sent her away. Later I saw the extra charge on my bill. I told the girl I was with that I would only pay for the drinks that I agreed upon. I didn't give my charge card until she changed the bill and then I followed her out to make sure they only charged what was agreed on.
A few times I heard from a girl that a customer reversed the charges so if you ever have a problem you could just reverse the charges. Other times I saw a customer talking to the mama about his bill and they corrected it.
IMHO, if you are going to be with a girl, don't get drunk, you probably won't remember a lot of what happenned so why waste your money. Also beware of the alcohol free champagne the girl may try to have the waiter bring in, always check the bottle to make sure it is real, why pay $$$ for non alcoholic stuff.
[QUOTE=Skulzz]If I am not mistakn isn't also illegal to open a tab? Please let me know. Finally if you open a tab and you feel it i wrong you have noobligation to pay.[/QUOTE]It's not illegal - maybe it should be, considering the rate at which the charges pile up - and you do have to pay. Stay away. Cash only.
Howz'it Guys!
This is my first post. I stumbled upon this forum as I was doing a search. Anyway, have been out of the game for a while (2 years), just started going out again about a month ago. Seems very slow now. Can anyone give me the 411 on Casino, Business, Mayas and Camelot? And recommend any girls to sit with. Seems like these are the more popular places. I usually go to seek good company and entertainment, not primarily for sex, of course if she wants I will not refuse. I like to sit with someone who is not to pushy with the drinks, easy to talk too, of course gotta be decent looking (I know I know everyone is looking for this). I don't mind paying for. 20 glasses of tea if she is as described and seems sincere. Yes I know they are there to make money and that guys will have different experiences with the same girl, but any 411 will be good. Tired of dishing out bait and having to cut the line even though thats part of the experience. Put it this way, I want to read the Cliff Notes before I read the Book.
Anyway, hope you all have a Safe and Inexpensive New Year.
Have you RTFF yet? Doesn't sound like it. There is already a lot of info already available to you.
[QUOTE=Lifesgood]
just started going out again about a month ago.[/QUOTE]
Welcome to the forum. Here's a helpful suggestion -- if you resumed going to bars "about a month ago," you probably have some names, descriptions, good and bad experiences, and other useful information to share. Currently you only have one post, asking other members for their information. The more information you've posted yourself, the more likely it will become that other members will take their time to share information with you.
[QUOTE=Lifesgood]Howz'it Guys!
Put it this way, I want to read the Cliff Notes before I read the Book.[/QUOTE]
Looking at the other two responses to this, I would add that while I understand this desire of yours, the whole point of this forum is that it IS a "book" and one that everyone here has taken pains in writing. I guess it would be nice and convenient if every board for every city was condensed into a quickie guide that was like Cliff Notes, but it just doesn't work that way. And no one really wants to give you a cliff notes when they've all written chapters to the book.
So you should really read the forum, like at least a few months worth. Trust me, if you're like 95 percent of us, you'll be glad you did. THEN if there's something specific missing that it's reasonable to think someone would know, THEN ask questions.
That's how I started out
[QUOTE=TwistedBrother]Looking at the other two responses to this, I would add that while I understand this desire of yours, the whole point of this forum is that it IS a "book" and one that everyone here has taken pains in writing. I guess it would be nice and convenient if every board for every city was condensed into a quickie guide that was like Cliff Notes, but it just doesn't work that way. And no one really wants to give you a cliff notes when they've all written chapters to the book.
So you should really read the forum, like at least a few months worth. Trust me, if you're like 95 percent of us, you'll be glad you did. THEN if there's something specific missing that it's reasonable to think someone would know, THEN ask questions.
That's how I started out[/QUOTE]Very good points
I always before these boards was left to past experiences, intuition, and sometimes what other friends rec. about.
Like gambling, hit & miss
sometimes you can go on a roll, and YMMV during certain times over the years.
NO, it will not be like it was in the late 70s, the wild wild west 80s, the post Marsland 90s, to the early 2000s on kukui, till the present.
Dang, you could get some damn good T&A, but again, the services vary on what the ladies are willing for the all mighty kala$
As it goes, those were the days
It is more if you find a good provider, you get the cell if possible(w/o her taking you as a SO or sugar dad), and become a good reg.
They are out there, just much harder to find.
Angela, Jade, Pinky, Jun had some great times. I hook up w/Angela when our schedules permit, and have a GREAt time, again IMHO YMMV.
Patience, being cool, get to know them if they let u, and IMHO you gotta be a good tipper. If you play chang(no diss to the chinese, as I am 1/8 chinese)
you get what you play for and they really do remember, they really do.
Enjoy your times,
Hauoli Makahiki Hou
k
My friend wanted to go Camelot because it was ticket night. never seen nutting nice and my friend was killing the mood cause [blue][Name deleted by author's request][/blue] was sucking him dry. went to [blue][Name deleted by author's request][/blue] after. I seen the bartender that use to work a [blue][Name deleted by author's request][/blue] "I think her name was [blue][Name deleted by author's request][/blue]". went to [blue][Name deleted by author's request][/blue] after that cause my friend wanted to see his so call "psycho girlfriend" no its not [blue][Name deleted by author's request][/blue]. [blue][Name deleted by author's request][/blue] is more pretty so the so call psycho is [blue][Name deleted by author's request][/blue] or something. I think her cousin is better looking. any body know anything about that girl lana the young one? so I was going call it a night and was walking to my car found out I lost my keys. so my pussy whope friend wanted to check [blue][Name deleted by author's request][/blue] and I check the other bars. So as I was walking to [blue][Name deleted by author's request][/blue] saw [blue][Name deleted by author's request][/blue] setting smoking and this old man with glasses watching her like a predetor " what a perv" and then follow her in like a kid and his mom. "I guess the old man going have some pussy on new years" I think thats the most funny thing I seen all night. it remind me of my friend and his psycho girlfriend.
[QUOTE=Head Lock]Have you RTFF yet? Doesn't sound like it. There is already a lot of info already available to you.[/QUOTE]Thank you Head Lock, Kapalua, Makana and Twisted, for your comments. And yes I did read "all" the other posts. But it goes back more than two years and mostly talks about bars in Kalihi (which I have no problem with just not my cup of tea). Also, was hoping to see more recent info.
My recent experiences have been at Casino, sat with Anna and Bobbie. Only sat with them for a little while, as they seemed busy. I think Bobbie is new and Anna has been there for a year maybe. Both seemed nice but did not have the chance to find out how sincere they are. May have to go back again. Went to Maya's a couple of times but didn't sit with anyone had some older girls that were pretty, but didn't want to take the chance with anyone as the older ones tend to be more professional. In my past experiences, the newer ones were better to talk too as things are all new to them (not sure if you guys feel the same way). Went to D'Amour once, seems like there is a new mama, somebody said she use to work at T Time but I didn't recognize her. Only went in to Business and Camelot once and sat at the bar, had some lookers, I think the best of all the bars, but have not set my sights on anyone in particular. Will probably continue the Casino route for now. Cannot be spreading myself too thin.
Thanks again for your comments and I hope I can contribute also.
[QUOTE=Lifesgood]Howz'it Guys!
This is my first post. I stumbled upon this forum as I was doing a search. Anyway, have been out of the game for a while (2 years), just started going out again about a month ago. Seems very slow now. Can anyone give me the 411 on Casino, Business, Mayas and Camelot? And recommend any girls to sit with. Seems like these are the more popular places. I usually go to seek good company and entertainment, not primarily for sex, of course if she wants I will not refuse. I like to sit with someone who is not to pushy with the drinks, easy to talk too, of course gotta be decent looking (I know I know everyone is looking for this). I don't mind paying for. 20 glasses of tea if she is as described and seems sincere. Yes I know they are there to make money and that guys will have different experiences with the same girl, but any 411 will be good. Tired of dishing out bait and having to cut the line even though thats part of the experience. Put it this way, I want to read the Cliff Notes before I read the Book.
Anyway, hope you all have a Safe and Inexpensive New Year.[/QUOTE]Actually IMHO, I think YMMV with the girls at the bars. Depends if the girl like you, some are money hungry and disappear the minute you stop buying them drinks. FYI, stay away from the Chinese girls at evergreen, they are in it for the money and will try to suck you dry.
The younger girls are nice to talk with as long as you have the money. They are nice to you as long as you keep spending money on them. If you are willing to spend money on girls, just pick one and you will have a fun time with her. The younger ones are faster drinkers so you need more money to afford them. The older ones might be better to sit with, some will allow you extras but as I said before with any bar girl, YMMV because they may allow extras for one guy but not for another. The older ones also may not be as fast drinkers as the younger ones.
I think you just gotta go and watch the girls first to see which ones are the hustlers. Then try one of the non hustler girls to see how she is.
[QUOTE=Member 69]Actually IMHO, I think YMMV with the girls at the bars. Depends if the girl like you, some are money hungry and disappear the minute you stop buying them drinks. FYI, stay away from the Chinese girls at evergreen, they are in it for the money and will try to suck you dry.
The younger girls are nice to talk with as long as you have the money. They are nice to you as long as you keep spending money on them. If you are willing to spend money on girls, just pick one and you will have a fun time with her. The younger ones are faster drinkers so you need more money to afford them. The older ones might be better to sit with, some will allow you extras but as I said before with any bar girl, YMMV because they may allow extras for one guy but not for another. The older ones also may not be as fast drinkers as the younger ones.
I think you just gotta go and watch the girls first to see which ones are the hustlers. Then try one of the non hustler girls to see how she is.[/QUOTE]To add,
If you are really on the hunt, be patient, cruise by the bar (esp. By the area they order&pickup the drinks) as you can see who the hustlers are, and always remember they are there to make$$$ but I have met some that are really nice girls and just looking for a guy to take them away from the hustle.
& again, a few of them looking for a sugar daddy (s) to support their lifestyle
Always think with the bigger head, and you might not have to get a second job to support your mongering
Enjoy,
K
I've been with Honey, Emma, and Linda at Evergreen. Of these three, the only one not to keep hustling money out of me was Emma. She is really down to earth and fun to talk with. On the other hand, Honey and Linda are hustlers. Damn I remember them asking for drinks every 5 minutes! I was like wtf? !
After numerous visits I finally gave up and felt that the money I spent at the bars I'd be better off at an AMP. So now I only go if one of my friends wants to go drinking, which is like once or twice a month. I'm usually the DD and as soon as we're done at the bar/s. We head straight to an AMP.
You know, for some reason I just don't get it. If most bar girls make a lot of money. Why don't they get their teeth fixed too? There are many drop dead gorgeous women at the bars but omg, some of their teeth look like it could saw a tree in half. It's a big turnoff for me.
[QUOTE=Member 69]Actually IMHO, I think YMMV with the girls at the bars. Depends if the girl like you, some are money hungry and disappear the minute you stop buying them drinks. FYI, stay away from the Chinese girls at evergreen, they are in it for the money and will try to suck you dry.
The younger girls are nice to talk with as long as you have the money. They are nice to you as long as you keep spending money on them. If you are willing to spend money on girls, just pick one and you will have a fun time with her. The younger ones are faster drinkers so you need more money to afford them. The older ones might be better to sit with, some will allow you extras but as I said before with any bar girl, YMMV because they may allow extras for one guy but not for another. The older ones also may not be as fast drinkers as the younger ones.
I think you just gotta go and watch the girls first to see which ones are the hustlers. Then try one of the non hustler girls to see how she is.[/QUOTE]Aloha Member69-
I do agree the YMMV depending on the girl you select and depending if they like you or not. I just wanted to get info on girls to stay away from. Similar to your mentioning of the Chinese girls at Evergreen. But sometimes mama will bring someone and she looks pretty and acts real nice and you go back a couple of times and you in for $$$. I know that this is part of the experience and as someone posted "its like gambling" hit or miss, but just thought that there was current information on who to definitely stay away from because they are really pros. Anyway I was just asking, I know some members may think I have to pay my dues to get information and thats fine. Will post my experiences also. Anyway tried to go to Casino last night but was closed, anyone know when they will reopen?
[QUOTE=Aboonai]
You know, for some reason I just don't get it. If most bar girls make a lot of money. Why don't they get their teeth fixed too? There are many drop dead gorgeous women at the bars but omg, some of their teeth look like it could saw a tree in half. It's a big turnoff for me.[/QUOTE]
I've said it before, if the happy ending is the objective, pass on the bars. It's a big game.
I have not done a scientific survey, but bar girls don't net all that much money. Quite a few are problem gamblers and have substance abuse issues. Like any sales job, it's feast or famine. Guys get the idea that they got tons of money because they spend a lot of that money on clothes, cars, designer purses and jewelry. Unfortunately, not much on dental care.
[QUOTE=Member 69]FYI, stay away from the Chinese girls at evergreen, they are in it for the money and will try to suck you dry.[/QUOTE]
I second this advice. They are all in it for the money, but the Chinese girls there are pretty danged ungracious about it.
Just wondering, where are the places to go in the afternoon? I know a few places are open, but the ones I've been to either have no girls, or are old enough to be my grandmother. Case in point Pearl City.
Second question other than Evergreens, where are the Chinese girls hanging out?
Lastly anyone have any info on the Filipino bars in Waipahu? Worth going to, or waste of time?
TIA
[no girls, or are old enough to be my grandmother. Case in point Pearl City.
Sounds like you're talking about Silk Lady Lounge. Am I right?
Went to Diamond Castle in Pearl City yesterday in the afternoon and there is action. The girls aren't young, but you can have fun. I went with Hana to the private booth and she wanted me to DATY with her. Spent $. 60, I had fun. She asked if I wanted to go in the room with her and a friend, but it would cost "money".
Good Luck
[QUOTE=Dao De Mu]Just wondering, where are the places to go in the afternoon? I know a few places are open, but the ones I've been to either have no girls, or are old enough to be my grandmother. Case in point Pearl City.
[/QUOTE]
Lots of places open at noon. Some open at 6am. You are not going to find the young 'uns at those hours. They know they won't make any money.
[QUOTE=Dao De Mu]Lastly anyone have any info on the Filipino bars in Waipahu? Worth going to, or waste of time?[/QUOTE]
Waste of time.
[QUOTE=Dao De Mu]Lastly anyone have any info on the Filipino bars in Waipahu? Worth going to, or waste of time?
TIA[/QUOTE] I work at the auto body shop right by Best Friend in Waipahu have three chicks that I think is hot. one of the girls name is cathy. never sat with the the other two yet. they only work at the Friday and Saterday.
Soia is by the mill on waipahu depot. have one loco chick name susan. same age as my young sister. 39 years old.
And for those prick members who printing what we write on this forums and going to the bar and telling the girls. Hope you got some Pussy Points.
[QUOTE=Pendoko]Thats good if you having sex with'um but some of those girl are fricking wack out crazy!
Now my other friend just met that new girl that works at [blue][Name deleted at author's request][/blue] and bang her and he told me she is psycho. So this Christmas Eve we went there and she threatened to kill him if he see another girl. [/QUOTE]Your friend must have game if he can score with a new girl after such a short while. Either that, or he is loaded.
When it comes to these bar girls, I can only think of the latter.
Really appreciate the info guys, thanks so much.
Also heard there's a place across from the Ilikai, anyone know what time it opens?
Any opinions on this girl named Tammy at Club Hanabi?
She used to work at Moonflower. She is partially blind and the others look after her. She was nice when she first got to Honolulu, but now, just a typical KB girl.
Have any of you fellow mongers actually banged a kb girl? I've had two in my (almost) 1 year of patronizing such places. Yes, it was all about the money, however once I banged them, I cut them off. I admit that I did spend quite an amount just to get into their pants. I even bought a prepaid phone with CA digits just to use for these two!
I don't know. I like AMPs, but I also like a 'challenge', so to speak. AMPs are practically a given, but not so much with these kb girls.
"How much will it take me to spend until I can get into these girls' pants? And how can I make it 'cheaper'? " is what I challenge myself with. Stupid as it may sound, but I have fun pondering the idea.
Just wanted to know if any of you have had the same kind of experience, or 'tactics' as I do?
Would be nice to know that I'm not the only asshole out in town. Haha.
Thanks guys.
[QUOTE=Tyrone Biggins]Have any of you fellow mongers actually banged a kb girl? I've had two in my (almost) 1 year of patronizing such places. Yes, it was all about the money, however once I banged them, I cut them off. I admit that I did spend quite an amount just to get into their pants. I even bought a prepaid phone with CA digits just to use for these two!
I don't know. I like AMPs, but I also like a 'challenge', so to speak. AMPs are practically a given, but not so much with these kb girls.
"How much will it take me to spend until I can get into these girls' pants? And how can I make it 'cheaper'? " is what I challenge myself with. Stupid as it may sound, but I have fun pondering the idea.
Just wanted to know if any of you have had the same kind of experience, or 'tactics' as I do?
Would be nice to know that I'm not the only asshole out in town. Haha.
Thanks guys.[/QUOTE]
I've banged alot of bar girls. Not the old ones, but the ones in their late 20s early 30s. It's a matter of beating them at their game. However, I did have relationships with them afterwards. The best was a girl I met that night. She was cute, but seemed lonely. Spent $20 buying her one drink and off we went! The real key is to listen to them and treat them as a person, not as a bar girl.
[QUOTE=John Ross]I've banged alot of bar girls. Not the old ones, but the ones in their late 20s early 30s. It's a matter of beating them at their game. However, I did have relationships with them afterwards. The best was a girl I met that night. She was cute, but seemed lonely. Spent $20 buying her one drink and off we went! The real key is to listen to them and treat them as a person, not as a bar girl.[/QUOTE]Hmmm, I may have to try that piece of advice and treat them a little better.
Btw, how was your relationships with those girls? I figure you must've had to have been incognito when going out with them in public, in case of coming across their customers (being that this island is so small)?
Went to business this past weekend. Sat with Candy, 1st time. Put my hand between her legs but she quickly moved my hand so I got the message. 1 drink and I was gone. I did see an new girl there. Young Mid-twenties. Didn't look Korean or Japanese. Could be Chinese. Will try her next time. Business was really slow.
[QUOTE=John Ross]I've banged alot of bar girls. Not the old ones, but the ones in their late 20s early 30s. It's a matter of beating them at their game. However, I did have relationships with them afterwards. The best was a girl I met that night. She was cute, but seemed lonely. Spent $20 buying her one drink and off we went! The real key is to listen to them and treat them as a person, not as a bar girl.[/QUOTE]
I've hit and run several girls in the past. Usually buy them 2 drinks and tell them I'll be back at 2:00 and we can go get something to eat. Usually end up at sodobo (sp?), million or like like. Take her home (see must live alone) then work my way into her house by saying I need to use the bathroom and then put the move on her. This has been a while back though. The newer girls are not that guilable. It's just a one shot deal (pun intended) so it does make it uncomforatble going back to the bar. Has anyone had a real good f**k from these bar girls. I always get the dead tunas. They just lay there, very little noise. It's just like they don't know what to do. Anyone else experience this?
[QUOTE=Tyrone Biggins]Hmmm, I may have to try that piece of advice and treat them a little better.
Btw, how was your relationships with those girls? I figure you must've had to have been incognito when going out with them in public, in case of coming across their customers (being that this island is so small)?[/QUOTE]
They were true gfs as they didn't give a rip if customers saw us together.
[QUOTE=Iliketowatch]I've hit and run several girls in the past. Usually buy them 2 drinks and tell them I'll be back at 2:00 and we can go get something to eat. Usually end up at sodobo (sp?), million or like like. Take her home (see must live alone) then work my way into her house by saying I need to use the bathroom and then put the move on her. This has been a while back though. The newer girls are not that guilable. It's just a one shot deal (pun intended) so it does make it uncomforatble going back to the bar. Has anyone had a real good f**k from these bar girls. I always get the dead tunas. They just lay there, very little noise. It's just like they don't know what to do. Anyone else experience this?[/QUOTE]Just heed JR's words of wisdom.
Women are emotional creatures. Treat a woman like a **** and you'll end up with a sex object. Treat a woman like a lady and you'll end up with a lover. The difference being, as you stated, having someone just going through the motions versus being with someone with emotions. And the sex is much better with someone who wants it just as much as you do.
Went to Vegas II earlier this week, since London Hub still is closed. Sat with Nana, a tanned korean, 30's, 5'4", nice Cs and highlighted hair in a short black dress. She was sexy and looking hot, but a bit fast ordering shots, so I bailed after 4 for her. I know YMMV, anyone knows if she plays if you spend more on her?
If you prefer, PM me.
[QUOTE=Niner Whiner]Just heed JR's words of wisdom.
Women are emotional creatures. Treat a woman like a **** and you'll end up with a sex object. Treat a woman like a lady and you'll end up with a lover. The difference being, as you stated, having someone just going through the motions versus being with someone with emotions. And the sex is much better with someone who wants it just as much as you do.[/QUOTE]
I learned the hard way. They were just giving in to sex. No passion. You need that emotional connection, but the Korean girls are too emotional. Watching the Korean soaps, they thrive on emotional situations (good and bad).
[QUOTE=Tyrone Biggins]
Have any of you fellow mongers actually banged a kb girl? I've had two in my (almost) 1 year of patronizing such places. [/QUOTE]
When I was frequenting hostess bars years ago, I found that my success rate was much better (a) at sleazy bars, and (b) with the less attractive women and older women. There were several exceptions, but they required a greater commitment of time and money.
Well put Niner and like everything else its all about trial and error. Some you'll piss off and some you'll adore - no matter how finely tuned your tactics are. Its all part of this emotional game we are playing with these women. They know it too...and that's why we keep going back over and over again.
Be well.
Buck.
[QUOTE=Niner Whiner]Just heed JR's words of wisdom.
Women are emotional creatures. Treat a woman like a **** and you'll end up with a sex object. Treat a woman like a lady and you'll end up with a lover. The difference being, as you stated, having someone just going through the motions versus being with someone with emotions. And the sex is much better with someone who wants it just as much as you do.[/QUOTE]
Does anyone know about the new KB named New World?
Used to be named something else - don't know the old name.
[QUOTE=Kapalua]When I was frequenting hostess bars years ago, I found that my success rate was much better (a) at sleazy bars, and (b) with the less attractive women and older women. There were several exceptions, but they required a greater commitment of time and money.[/QUOTE]Does anyone know about the KB named New World? Used to be named something else - don't know old name.