Strip Club Reports

[QUOTE=TheBro;4136060]I'm just curious, do any strippers do out-of-club meets? I'm not really a strip club guy, but I notice the girls posted here are way hotter than any escorts being posted in the escort section. Prices seem decent to good as well. I'd imagine they'd charge more to meet someone outside a club, which I'd be fine with. Just curious if it actually happens?[/QUOTE]Of course it actually happens. You just have to ask. Some will, some won't. If your ATF isn't interested, accept it and move on to another. Be prepared to bargain a little.

But one wise member on this forum posted a bit of wisdom years ago that has governed my thinking ever since -- a provider in the SC who is charging you, say, one-twenty to one-fifty for fifteen to twenty minutes in the VIP is actually charging you three-sixty to four-fifty an hour -- for hurried service in a dark, drafty, uncomfortable cube. The ones asking two bills and more for BJ are actually making six to eight hundred an hour for very little in return.

When a peeler quotes me quality escort rates to go to VIP, I tell her what that other member posted: for that rate, I expect at LEAST an hour of service, on king sized bed, in a nice hotel.

So, you have the right idea. The rate you get for meeting outside the club (OTC) may look.

High compared to inside, but you will be far more satisfied with a leisurely session on a soft bed in a respectable hotel.

[QUOTE=TheBro;4136060]I'm just curious, do any strippers do out-of-club meets? I'm not really a strip club guy, but I notice the girls posted here are way hotter than any escorts being posted in the escort section. Prices seem decent to good as well. I'd imagine they'd charge more to meet someone outside a club, which I'd be fine with. Just curious if it actually happens?[/QUOTE]I met up with one from Bouzoukie twice, one from Kalamazoo and one from Coli offered but out way of what I'd like to donate.

One from Bouzoukie might be out of game now. No more dancing no return texts. Maybe she's now a good girl LOL.

[QUOTE=TheBro;4136060]I'm just curious, do any strippers do out-of-club meets? I'm not really a strip club guy, but I notice the girls posted here are way hotter than any escorts being posted in the escort section. Prices seem decent to good as well. I'd imagine they'd charge more to meet someone outside a club, which I'd be fine with. Just curious if it actually happens?[/QUOTE]Seeing a dancer outside the club (OTC) is fairly common. If you only visit certain clubs or go sporadically it can be tougher. I imagine in Detroit it is quite common. On my one & only Detroit visit last fall a dancer from Coli quoted me the same rate as at the club ($300), but did not follow through either in the club or outside.

The dancers pay fees to dance & most clubs take a cut of money from lap dances or VIPs, so financially it is in there best interest to venture into OTC route.

I have paid anywhere from $100 to $300 for OTC sessions, typically on the lower end. The cost of a VIP at the club you met the dancer can be a rough guide for approx cost.

I will be traveling thru Detroit this week and wonder what clubs are the best to visit for some extra fun.

Put a picture up of her but if it's who I think then she does everything.

[QUOTE=SkinDogToo;4137531]Yeah +1 if it is the same chick.[/QUOTE]That ass is fantastic. Talented mouth too.

[QUOTE=JVisaGod;4137720]That ass is fantastic. Talented mouth too.[/QUOTE]If you guys have really seen her then it is what it is no doubt but just throwin this out there don't be saying stuff just to fuck with this guy. Have a heart. Again, just sayin.

[QUOTE=DocDetroit;4137553]I imagine Lexie is about to get very popular.[/QUOTE]Shit, Lexie probably posted this to drum up business!

[QUOTE=DavidWebb2010;4137070]I will be traveling thru Detroit this week and wonder what clubs are the best to visit for some extra fun.[/QUOTE]Apparently there is a Lexie at BTs that does it all. She likes to bring creampies home to her boyfriend.

[QUOTE=DavidWebb2010;4137070]I will be traveling thru Detroit this week and wonder what clubs are the best to visit for some extra fun.[/QUOTE]It is steadily available at BTs if you HAVE to have it!

Stopped in yesterday and boy is the GPS infected the entire place. I laughed at one dancer that offered a CBJ for $500 and another dancer that said you can't touch her while she did the deed. . It was a joke. No BBBJ offered initially and they wanted big upcharge if they did. It might be my last trip there.

[QUOTE=Aman200;4141539]Stopped in yesterday and boy is the GPS infected the entire place. I laughed at one dancer that offered a CBJ for $500 and another dancer that said you can't touch her while she did the deed. . It was a joke. No BBBJ offered initially and they wanted big upcharge if they did. It might be my last trip there.[/QUOTE]Flight Club has always been inconsistent for me, every time I visit Detroit, and it's always to an extreme.

One time the dancers are reasonable and I get great dances from several different dances at a decent rate. Next visit, every dancer wants at least $500 for everything and $250 for a CBJ, and several want a thousand for CFS, and the $500 for a CBJ that Aman mentioned. And it's not like it's different dancers, the dancer with the heart shaped nipples, Jasmine I think her name is, has been both reasonable and extreme GPS.

Does anyone know when and if she's dancing. She used to be on the old boards saw her I'm Facebook post for Coliseum couple weeks ago. On old boards she was known as Rayna Rouge and Aurora something for little while. I heard she goes by Gypsi now.

[QUOTE=TimeTwist;4142379]Flight Club has always been inconsistent for me, every time I visit Detroit, and it's always to an extreme.

One time the dancers are reasonable and I get great dances from several different dances at a decent rate. Next visit, every dancer wants at least $500 for everything and $250 for a CBJ, and several want a thousand for CFS, and the $500 for a CBJ that Aman mentioned. And it's not like it's different dancers, the dancer with the heart shaped nipples, Jasmine I think her name is, has been both reasonable and extreme GPS.[/QUOTE]Last time I was there in November, arrived just after opening, saw the entire line up, and was surprised at the number of strippers but underwhelmed at the quality. 90% I wouldn't even consider, had to shoo a couple away. I got the attention of one of the hotter girls of the bunch, had her come to my table, we chatted for a while then started negotiating. Had to talk her into BBBJ along with the deed, wouldn't budge off $400 (after starting much higher which she wasn't worth), so we parted company. I got out of there knowing nothing was happening that day. I am reluctant to go back even though this used to be a favorite of mine and never disappointed.

I'm thinking of venturing out today. Does anyone know what the cast is like at Henry's North or Bogart's for the Saturday day shift?

This was perhaps the most serene thing I've ever seen: We sit at the table in front of the DJ booth. He walks up and tips the DJ $20 and the 2 bouncers $10 off RIP. Tell the DJ I'm looking out for you and I want you to look out for me. Then started the girls. It wasn't a parade but there were enough to keep us busy. I overhear him tell one girl that he's look for a regular "jumpoff," not a girlfriend. She'll get money and he'll get laid. Her job is to convince him to spend future money on her. The come from the VIP, her hair is messed up and she's carrying her shoes. He does a few more like that and gets about three to accept. They exchange numbers and he visits them 2 to 3 times a month at an arranged time and place. The stories he tells me are pretty wild. He states the agreed upon price has lessened due to frequency of visits and favors (having his mechanic look at a car, plumber fix a leaky tub, electrician fix some outlets, etc.) He even states they are down with fantasy role play. I couldn't get any of that shit to work for me, but when we go to Bogarts, there are about three or four women who leave the customers they're with to come over and call him daddy.

[QUOTE=MareloboMex;4130478]This is one of the things that makes the Detroit club scene so good.

First most girls do extras.

Second most girls when they start don't plan to be doing extras.

Every club has some girls who only dance. It could be they only work a few days or few weeks, or they can actually make enough money just dancing because, they have another job, they live with their parents, they live with their boyfriend.

Every club has some girls who will do FS with any guy.

In between there is a whole range of girls. There are girls who only do HJ, who only do BJ, who only do CBJ, who do FS with only a hand full of guys who are their regulars.

When girls first start dancing they are typically shocked and revolted by the things guys ask them to do and for the money they are offering.

As they get socialized those things become less shocking, and frequently the money is needed for people who can't or won't hold down a job flipping burgers or folding sweaters.

One of the most enjoyable activities is taking a non extras girl and getting to be her first BJ or her first FS. Frequently girls will have orgasms there first time if the guys is willing to get them warmed up. Typically a girl will do her first time with a guy she is comfortable with and likes more than the other guys and respected her no extras boundary when she was a clean girl.

The longer and longer a girl works her sessions become less enjoyable and more mechanical and frequently she will start club hopping because she doesn't have enough regulars at her current / initial club.

Yes it takes some time and some patience and you have to be kind of a nice to achieve this. It is your decision if it is worth it for you. For me I enjoy it, and if you don't you can wait for someone to get her to do her first extra, and then you can be number 100 or 1000.

MM.[/QUOTE]Wise words. I recall the look on the girls face when they are asked for extras the first few times. Some disappear, some watch the other girls go back constantly and get with the program, some start low then raise their rates and lose the few customers they had then off to the next club to rinse and repeat, and some become popular and figure it out and make decent money. Some start the drugs and lose weight and look a mess, some catch the package from the BBFS and gain weight from the lifetime medicine they have to take. Some get prego or fall in love and leave and return. I just sit back and watch the show. Back in the day I didn't leave until I scored. Now days unless I find a gem or bump into an ATF I'm leaving with a pocket full.

[QUOTE=JdAgain;4129852]I'm a bit of a SC regular, and I can tell you about at least three dancers I've gotten to know well enough that they've told me their SO had no idea what they actually did in the club beyond dancing. I always wondered how someone could so easily draw an imaginary line in their head for their GF's behavior as a dancer. It doesn't take a genius to get that they are probably doing more than just dance, if they're bringing home the proverbial bacon. Don't want to know how they got it, don't ask.

Or get a real job yourself and offer to support her so she doesn't have to dance. Now there's a novel idea.[/QUOTE]Most of these girls are damaged before they hit the stage. The average guy won't put up with that kind of drama. So, to find a guy that will they have to accept what they can get. You can try, but you will never turn a stripper into a house wife. She will be fucking the neighbor while you are out trying to support her. Any women selling services is giving away far more services for free. You are not paying for the services, you can get that for free. You are paying to walk away after the deed, drama free, no strings attached.

[QUOTE=Kurse;4144426]This was perhaps the most serene thing I've ever seen: We sit at the table in front of the DJ booth. He walks up and tips the DJ $20 and the 2 bouncers $10 off RIP. Tell the DJ I'm looking out for you and I want you to look out for me. Then started the girls. It wasn't a parade but there were enough to keep us busy. I overhear him tell one girl that he's look for a regular "jumpoff," not a girlfriend. She'll get money and he'll get laid. Her job is to convince him to spend future money on her. The come from the VIP, her hair is messed up and she's carrying her shoes. He does a few more like that and gets about three to accept. They exchange numbers and he visits them 2 to 3 times a month at an arranged time and place. The stories he tells me are pretty wild. He states the agreed upon price has lessened due to frequency of visits and favors (having his mechanic look at a car, plumber fix a leaky tub, electrician fix some outlets, etc.) He even states they are down with fantasy role play. I couldn't get any of that shit to work for me, but when we go to Bogarts, there are about three or four women who leave the customers they're with to come over and call him daddy.[/QUOTE]Not sure if this was overheard or it was one of your buddies but I have never seen anyone tip the DJ or bouncers at Bogies. I have tipped the waitress extra for helping direct a good menu dancer and that has worked well. I am not a regular but do stop in about every month on $10 Tuesday. Last few visits have not been good, limited somewhat attractive dancers and pricing out of line IMHO. Had a interesting talk with Rihanna, (glasses, long brown hair, petite) about why the girls rarely make rounds but either stay in the dressing room or sit for hours with a regular (She said that it was better to hang out for a hour and get a $3 or $4 dance than to work on $1 dances. This is one reason I have only once done the VIP with Rihanna, she is all business, in and out scene. Does this strategy really work? I would believe a regular will get a better deal than paying for GPS. Also, I heard the waitresses say a person has been there for a few hours and not gone to the VIP, so they do track what is happening.

[QUOTE=Kurse;4144426]This was perhaps the most serene thing I've ever seen: We sit at the table in front of the DJ booth. He walks up and tips the DJ $20 and the 2 bouncers $10 off RIP. Tell the DJ I'm looking out for you and I want you to look out for me. Then started the girls. It wasn't a parade but there were enough to keep us busy. I overhear him tell one girl that he's look for a regular "jumpoff," not a girlfriend. She'll get money and he'll get laid. Her job is to convince him to spend future money on her. The come from the VIP, her hair is messed up and she's carrying her shoes. He does a few more like that and gets about three to accept. They exchange numbers and he visits them 2 to 3 times a month at an arranged time and place. The stories he tells me are pretty wild. He states the agreed upon price has lessened due to frequency of visits and favors (having his mechanic look at a car, plumber fix a leaky tub, electrician fix some outlets, etc.) He even states they are down with fantasy role play. I couldn't get any of that shit to work for me, but when we go to Bogarts, there are about three or four women who leave the customers they're with to come over and call him daddy.[/QUOTE]Interesting, most clubs frown on girls taking their business out of the clubs. But I guess it toes a fine line, because they wouldn't be bothered if the customer offers to pay a stripper to accompany them on a vacation.

I stopped in Bogarts before noon on Saturday. You can get in without paying the cover if you show up before noon. Sat down and ordered my beer looking for my regular peeler. She came out of the dressing room and sat with another one of her regulars. I was quite surprised to see 12 dancers when they did the opening review. It took me a while but I went to the VIP with my regular for our usual time. Sorry but she doesn't want any reviews posted. There is another dancer there named Tia that I have been watching for some time and always wanted to see what was available. After having a bite to eat and recharging the batteries I tipped Tia while she was on stage and asked her to come over. It took her awhile but she finally stopped by to visit. Tia is about 5' 8" has a great hour glass figure and C cups with very nice nipples to suck on. We talked for a bit and I negotiated a BBBJ / cim with no song count for $. We ventured up to the VIP where she totally stripped down to her birthday suit revealing a full Bush. We had 2 1/2 warm up songs before she started going down on Mr. Happy. Since I already had done the deed it took me a while longer but she kept on going until I popped. I think we were up there for at least 6 songs. She has a great set of lips and her mouth game is good. Of course YMMV.

I don't want to mention the club or the girl, just want to say the are she real gems out there if your lucky to run into them. Anyway sitting and relaxing last Saturday and was approached by several girls offering she really expensive extras in the mid to high 300 range. Laughed all of them off but this one really petite one kept coming back and I had one beer to go so figured I'd offer slightly above my normal 140 offer. Told her I'd give her 180 but absolutely no time counting and bareback as well. She agreed to this and off we went. Walked into the VIP at 10 pm, when we were done I walked out of the club at 11:14. Never had a girl that sex crazed for a big dick.

So we are at the 30 minute mark and the club calls all girls to the stage and this little thing can't figure out her outfit. I'm dressed, money is on her clothes but my dick is still out because I hadn't cum. Finally I break it to her that the song is almost over and she's not even figured out the outfit let alone gotten the shoes on. Do I sit down to wait for her to get dressed but instead her mouth goes right to my dick and a quick BJ and I'm rock hard again and she's climbing on board for more. Another 30 minutes of action, ribs of positions and multiple orgasms from her. I know, I know. Can't confirm those but I can tell you this. I had juice running down my balls the entire time and once when she was standing up in front of me I rubbed her clit hard and she squirted all over my hand. One hell of a time helped out by some generic V (one big thumbs up). Was laughing at the site of this under 20 year old riding me like there was no tomorrow.

[QUOTE=StripperLover;4146901]I don't want to mention the club or the girl, just want to say the are she real gems out there if your lucky to run into them. Anyway sitting and relaxing last Saturday and was approached by several girls offering she really expensive extras in the mid to high 300 range. Laughed all of them off but this one really petite one kept coming back and I had one beer to go so figured I'd offer slightly above my normal 140 offer. Told her I'd give her 180 but absolutely no time counting and bareback as well. She agreed to this and off we went. Walked into the VIP at 10 pm, when we were done I walked out of the club at 11:14. Never had a girl that sex crazed for a big dick.

So we are at the 30 minute mark and the club calls all girls to the stage and this little thing can't figure out her outfit. I'm dressed, money is on her clothes but my dick is still out because I hadn't cum. Finally I break it to her that the song is almost over and she's not even figured out the outfit let alone gotten the shoes on. Do I sit down to wait for her to get dressed but instead her mouth goes right to my dick and a quick BJ and I'm rock hard again and she's climbing on board for more. Another 30 minutes of action, ribs of positions and multiple orgasms from her. I know, I know. Can't confirm those but I can tell you this. I had juice running down my balls the entire time and once when she was standing up in front of me I rubbed her clit hard and she squirted all over my hand. One hell of a time helped out by some generic V (one big thumbs up). Was laughing at the site of this under 20 year old riding me like there was no tomorrow.[/QUOTE]Nice report. Nice to know that there are some dancers out there who are not suffering from GPS and who provide good service. They deserve return customers!

If enough mongers decline unrealistic offers, the prices will come down or the dancers will move on to another source of income (e. G. , a job outside the strip clubs). What is unrealistic? Hard to quantify but do a calculation of an hourly pay rate for a trip to the VIP-- that might offer some perspective.

[QUOTE=Nick6789;4145649]Interesting, most clubs frown on girls taking their business out of the clubs. But I guess it toes a fine line, because they wouldn't be bothered if the customer offers to pay a stripper to accompany them on a vacation.[/QUOTE]You're correct that they do frown upon it 1.) because they lose some business in the club, but I don't think that is the main reason. I'm not sure of the laws but if they're caught sitting it inside the club, the club is probably at risk of a facilitating charge as a a promoting prostitution charge. Both of which would result in bigger losses of income. They could care less what these ladies do, as long as they don't put the club in danger. Which in it's self is funny cause they know these ladies are doing drugs in the club and pretty much turn a blind eye to it. Along with what is permitted in the VIP if you think about them getting upset with the lady for getting outside income make you wanna laugh you ass off.

[QUOTE=Electronman;4146970]Nice report. Nice to know that there are some dancers out there who are not suffering from GPS and who provide good service. They deserve return customers!

If enough mongers decline unrealistic offers, the prices will come down or the dancers will move on to another source of income (e. G. , a job outside the strip clubs). What is unrealistic? Hard to quantify but do a calculation of an hourly pay rate for a trip to the VIP-- that might offer some perspective.[/QUOTE]I couldn't agree with this post more.

Unless you're at the Flight Club and have a burning desire to spend a lot of cash, there is pretty much a standard price with maybe a little extra for bonus desires at the Hamilton clubs. Having said that, you have to take into account the environment as well: You're in a tiny back room with either a couple of chairs at Bogart's or a padded, worn, quarter sized bench seat at either Henry's, with a curtain. That's not exactly top tier accommodations.

Now, think about time. A typical visit to the VIP is probably 15 minutes or so. If that. Essentially, you're paying for a quicky in a seedy back room. If you want to pay $150 or $200 for fifteen minutes. Have at it. But they're going to expect the same thing next time AND they'll start expecting higher rates from all the guys. You're not doing anyone a favor by paying higher rates and if one girl doesn't want to go into the typical going rate. Find another. I mean, you're not dealing in fine art. There are plenty of others out there.

Plus, the key to a girl not having to hustle as much and being successful in the long term, is having regulars. I've said this here before and I've told girls at the club that don't seem to get it: You might get $200 from a guy once but then never get him again. On the other hand, if you give a guy a good time at good rate, he'll come and see you time and time again. So, instead of making $200 once, you make thousands over time.

Recently, on my adventures into the world, I saw one quite attractive girl who caught my attention. She came over, we had good conversation and seemed to connect a bit. Then, the subject of cost came up. She wanted $250 and immediately I said no, then, she came down to $200 and I just told her out that it wasn't anywhere near my ball park. She didn't move on price and I definitely wasn't moving on price either but we were both very cordial about it.

Still, I enjoyed the conversation and I'm sure when I see her in the future, we'll have a friendly hello and maybe talk a bit but with rates like that, I'll never go back with her. I'm perfectly fine with that and am comfortable with the wide variety of reasonably priced buffet items that were there and readily available at that time. In fact, I'm going out tonight to see what's on the menu, so, hopefully, I'll find something interesting to have.

[QUOTE=Incognito1234;4144249]I'm thinking of venturing out today. Does anyone know what the cast is like at Henry's North or Bogart's for the Saturday day shift?[/QUOTE]Same. I haven't been in a while, and I'd like a scouting report, if there's one available.

[QUOTE=XaDudeX;4148291]Same. I haven't been in a while, and I'd like a scouting report, if there's one available.[/QUOTE]I was at North recently for Saturday night shift and wasn't too impressed. I'd imagine day shift is worse.

Stopped by South too and was pleasantly surprised. There's been a recent influx of new girls. Nobody spectacular, but the club was at least on par with Bogarts / North for a change. And they finally stopped charging $20 for the VIP.

[QUOTE=Ghill33;4151018]I was at North recently for Saturday night shift and wasn't too impressed. I'd imagine day shift is worse.

Stopped by South too and was pleasantly surprised. There's been a recent influx of new girls. Nobody spectacular, but the club was at least on par with Bogarts / North for a change. And they finally stopped charging $20 for the VIP.[/QUOTE]I questioned the $20 VIP and was told, only if you have had only one drink. Ordered another and went down to $10. Saw a cute spinner down there, would not do extras. Said she used to at North, but got sick of cheep guys.

Haven't been to the cricket in a while, and the Hamilton bars are too smokey, but I thought I heard the cricket has mandatory cost check. Can anyone verify that. Or any other SC for that matter. I'm a puss to the cold, I like having my coat with me, I'm always cold. Stay safe out there.

[QUOTE=Leathvj;4156096]Haven't been to the cricket in a while, and the Hamilton bars are too smokey, but I thought I heard the cricket has mandatory cost check. Can anyone verify that. Or any other SC for that matter. I'm a puss to the cold, I like having my coat with me, I'm always cold. Stay safe out there.[/QUOTE]The last few times I have been there, I had to check my coat. One of the warmer days, I just left my coat in the car and walked briskiy to the door.

Madscientist.

[blue][Deleted by Admin][/blue]

[b][u]EDITOR'S NOTE[/u]:[/b] [blue]This report was redacted or deleted to remove sections of the report that were [u]largely argumentative[/u]. Please read the Forum FAQ and the Forum's Posting Guidelines for more information. [i]Thank You![/i]

Seriously? Your second post in 6 years is to fingerwag?

You're done here

A2[/blue]

[QUOTE=Leathvj;4156096]Haven't been to the cricket in a while, and the Hamilton bars are too smokey, but I thought I heard the cricket has mandatory cost check. Can anyone verify that. Or any other SC for that matter. I'm a puss to the cold, I like having my coat with me, I'm always cold. Stay safe out there.[/QUOTE]No offense but most of you guys on her come off pretty pathetic. If a coat check fee is a deal breaker than you should take back some more aluminum cans and stay out of the strip club.

[QUOTE=NeilMcCauley;4156357]No offense but most of you guys on her come off pretty pathetic. If a coat check fee is a deal breaker than you should take back some more aluminum cans and stay out of the strip club.[/QUOTE]If the coat check fee was the ONLY issue, I would tend to agree-- although I don't like being nickled and dimed by any club.

Some customers wear light weight jackets and vests because they provide pockets. If you wear athletic gear to a club (e. G. , sweat pants) you may need pockets (zippered pockets are preferred!) for your keys, wallet, phone or other important strip club supplies.

I'm looking for who has good mileage at the Landing Strip. I saw a nice looking blonde with a lot of tats that goes by Miss October if I remember correctly. My memory is a little foggy I had to many adult beverages that evening? My question is has anyone had any luck with her?

Any intel on Miss October from the landing strip?

[QUOTE=NeilMcCauley;4156357]No offense but most of you guys on her come off pretty pathetic. If a coat check fee is a deal breaker than you should take back some more aluminum cans and stay out of the strip club.[/QUOTE]A jacket is good for laying on the scummy chairs in the VIP. I always take one just for that.

[QUOTE=Leathvj;4156096]Haven't been to the cricket in a while, and the Hamilton bars are too smokey, but I thought I heard the cricket has mandatory cost check. Can anyone verify that. Or any other SC for that matter. I'm a puss to the cold, I like having my coat with me, I'm always cold. Stay safe out there.[/QUOTE]Yes, Cricket has Coat Check but it's free at least in the afternoon (as of last Friday).

[QUOTE=NeilMcCauley;4156357]No offense but most of you guys on her come off pretty pathetic. If a coat check fee is a deal breaker than you should take back some more aluminum cans and stay out of the strip club.[/QUOTE]The charges add up, I'm there for the sex. And it would be nice to pay less than $20 additional, because that's what notel prices start at.

[blue][Deleted by Admin]

Clearly your intent here is to troll guys,

Fuck off

A2[/blue]

Quick question has anyone here partaken in OTC with Kellie from Bogarts. Sexy looking blonde with a hot body, she has been discussed here before she has inverted nipples. I've had fun with her in the club, just hesitant to pull the the trigger for otc. She gave me her number and seemed very willing. If you want pm with the details.