Massage Parlor Reports

Went there in October. There is no sign but the door is next to the door marked 520. Parked on street around back walked to front. I was let in and presented with Cindy. Small, little breasts but very good attitude. Had table shower, not the best but made up for it with rub down. She went right to work with a HJ when I started putting my hands in certain areas and asking for more. After settling for. 8 we were both bare. I did some dining and some rubbing. There was no inserting but everything was bare. I let loose sitting on her chest balanced between her little mounds as she went to town on me. I gave her a very pretty white necklace.

[QUOTE=Shumfrey]Went there in October. There is no sign but the door is next to the door marked 520. Parked on street around back walked to front. I was let in and presented with Cindy. Small, little breasts but very good attitude. Had table shower, not the best but made up for it with rub down. She went right to work with a HJ when I started putting my hands in certain areas and asking for more. After settling for. 8 we were both bare. I did some dining and some rubbing. There was no inserting but everything was bare. I let loose sitting on her chest balanced between her little mounds as she went to town on me. I gave her a very pretty white necklace.[/QUOTE]Do you have an estimate as to her age? Any other providers? House. 6? Was f/s on the menu?

The usual questions. And indeed important information for us all.

[QUOTE=Phat Bastard]Are you sure they were see cups and not dee, be or eh cups? ;)[/QUOTE]

This used to happen to me. I would post with "C-cups" and Jackon's spell check would change it to "see cups!" I would have to go back and edit my post. This stopped happening when I became a senior member.

I like the part about eh cups, though, like the Canadian girls, eh?

[QUOTE=DaddysLookin]Again, with I with there, I offered $, now that I see that .8 does the trick, it becomes a better "value" at $.4.

IMHO, the place just ain't that special. If it was the only one in town, OK, but there is plenty of competition out there, which spells their ultimate demise.

Again, I repeat, what this freaking city needs is an AMP with hot, young, spinners.[/QUOTE]

Amen, brother. San Fran is loaded with them. Can't they share?

[quote]San Fran is loaded with them. Can't they share?[/QUOTE] would love this.The only paradox would be the supply and demand that would drive up costs all around if this kinda place managed to open up shop. but it would be worth the value there but the competition may also thrive by up'ing there costs.

I am no expert in economics or amp econ for the matter

I returned for second visit with Kate at DT.

Excellent experience. She was friendly as before and I was ready.

It was cold today.

Place not busy today.

Get a good TS with the right spots, then dry off in warm sauna.

Got a decent hard massage on a sore neck and shoulder with some effort. Decent. And even hot towel on back.

No back play but the flip was nice when she undressed and rubbed on my body softly caressing and kissing.

CBJ very good she really worked it. But the dam condom was too tight for my liking I might as well had a cock ring on and I m just average.

After the finish its not over.

She wipes me off. Cleans and covers me with warm towels then starts massaging each foot and leg.

Then she goes to my hands and forearms.

Very nice I ll be back again.

I had a similar experience with Mimi at Lilly last week. Full roaming(which was encouraged) and before the flip she laid on top of me and licked my ass and balls. After the flip, she gave a nice HJ while licking my neck and nipples.

Surpised the hell ou to me, as I have been to Lily three times before, and only light roaming was allowed.

Gave her 50 and got the sad face.

[quote]Gave her 50 and got the sad face. [/QUOTE]From recent reports I almost considered trying Lilly today but went to DT instead (see below). My question is the "tongue service" considered to be a "mini extra" level of service as opposed to another level up like CBJ so my question is that if "Mimi" is doing this for other customers of her (that may not be posting here) what level $ has she been receiving? Or is she simply not very smart as a provider if she gives more that what she gets and keeps giving out the sad face response? I certainly would have enjoyed Mimi 's tongue service because I have nt got that level of tongue service in awhile. IS she expecting. 6 to. 8?

I have been to lilly's once, it was great but she wasn't naked. So I'm thinking going to DT for a naked HJ and thats it. Does that sound crazy? Is it worth it?

Having asked Shumfrey for additional information and having not received any type of additional information (that is to say, something of value upon which a decision could or could not be made). I decided to take the visit this afternoon.

First off, it is not next to 520, which places you across Atwells Avenue, but next to 519 and is there, as noted, by Shumfrey, without benefit of sign. Rating an 8/10 on the hard to find scale.

Rang the buzzer and was physically let in by Asian woman (did not get name). TINY arrangement, with two women there. Before doing anything, I asked if there were any other women and was informed that what I saw was it. I have to state that neither was my "cup of tea (not even green tea). I thanked them and left without any service.

I have kinda had it with middle aged women in these places and refuse to spend cash on service like that any longer.

The two could be loosely called the Lee sisters, fug and ug. Both splendor, VERY late 30's with small chests. In other words, a dime a dozen. Shumfrey quoted. 6 and. 8 I can do better things with $. 4 than these two.

That's my report and I hope that I have added something constructive to conversation, as opposed to vague, ambiguous, generalities.

[QUOTE=Amp Explorer]would love this.The only paradox would be the supply and demand that would drive up costs all around if this kinda place managed to open up shop. but it would be worth the value there but the competition may also thrive by up'ing there costs.

I am no expert in economics or amp econ for the matter[/QUOTE]Besides the prices several AMP do a hot tea service. If they ask you for a drink reply with hot tea. most provders do the cbj wit a mouth full for an interesting sensation.

I visited here on Wednesday night and yes, the two working are average. I ended up with Lola. They still utilize a lawn chair in the TS room here. The TS was nothing special and a bit uncomfortable laying face down on the lawn chair.

The backrub was nothing special, but I was really tired so I was just closing my eyes and trying to drift a little. On the flip some temple caressing, chest and then moved around to do the legs, did brush by the boys. I did not take note of the time when we started. After finishing the legs I was informed that massage over. I was a bit shocked, this was a first for me. She said something about next time more or something, she said I was to tired.

I guess I should have told her she missed a spot, but I was already annoyed at this point. Tipped .20 and left. Maybe it was me, her or a combination. Curious as to what others have encountered. PM if you like.

[QUOTE=Leg Guy]I have been to lilly's once, it was great but she wasn't naked. So I'm thinking going to DT for a naked HJ and thats it. Does that sound crazy? Is it worth it?[/QUOTE]

Because you are new... I will give you a break...

Go back and read several posts around this one. (RTFF) 10/27/07

[url]http://www.usasexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=579649&postcount=1023[/url]

The program at DT & 1021 (Japan) is FS. NOT HJ. The girls expect the full tip for the hour. If you only want a HJ go somewhere else.


Have Fun
Tony

[QUOTE=Little Tony II]Because you are new... I will give you a break...

Go back and read several posts around this one. (RTFF) 10/27/07

[url]http://www.usasexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=579649&postcount=1023[/url]

The program at DT & 1021 (Japan) is FS. NOT HJ. The girls expect the full tip for the hour. If you only want a HJ go somewhere else.


Have Fun
Tony[/QUOTE]

You can probably get a HJ from a nude lady at DT, CH, 1021, or Bally (is Bally still open?), but expect to pay significantly more for a tip, maybe eighty or a hundred, on top of the house fee. (That is because for an hour of her time, the woman usually provides FS, and so takes in one hundred forty or more.) For that kind of dough, some might argue it would be more cost effective to jerk off while watching a skin flick. For a couple more Jacksons, you might get BJ or FS, perhaps a better deal.

Hello,

I would have address of massage center, I would like to try.

Thanks

Great time at Lilys on Wed!. First pulled up and saw LEO in the lot. WTF. Look like a small fender bender at the intersection. Driver were exchanging 411. Tiny gal named Jane or Jamie. Very attentive in the TS. Great massage to the smiling end. No extras that have been discribed receantly. Great fun and thoughly relaxed when I left. I will go back. Standard donations. Some roaming allowed.

Usually uses Ivy - was at JJ & 81, gone for about 3 weeks - any help? thx

Lot of help there, is english your second language or possibly third?

How about a name, then try the search function.

I made an appointment with the woman from the raven chat line that I referenced in the Boston forum on Sunday early afternoon. We agreed to meet at 1230, and she told me to call her when I was halfway there (She lives in Pawtucket, RI.) Naturally halfway down 95 she is no where to be found, so I decide to kick it up a notch and head to CH.

Greeted by a stunning girl in a blue bikini who says her name is something to the effect of Papi (at least it sounded like that, but rest assured, she is the polar opposite of Big Papi! ). I pay the house fee and she escorts me to the room. She is STUNNING. A little on the tall side, nice C cups, great ass. The works for an Asian girl. Says she is from Korea.

10 mins in the sauna followed by a nice TS. Then a first for me happened at CH. As she was cleaning me in the TS I just lightly touched her leg and got a little push away. No big deal, I know this is a FS establishment, but still, odd. The TS was good, teasing in all the right places, etc. Just that was bizarre.

Off to the body rub. It was very soft, really hardly even a rub, but it felt good having a smoking hot girl straddling me and rubbing my back nonetheless. Not to much teasing, a little, but I like more. The flip comes after about 10 mins or so, and I tell her I want everything. I pay $. 7 A little steep, but with her body she could've gotten whatever she asked me for.

Covered BJ very good, to doggy (what an ass), finished mish, and got her a little mad because I soiled her hair and a little of her skirt when I pulled out haha. But not too mad. Got the hot towel and my mini water on the way out.

She was very hot, the FS was a little methodical. I lasted a little while and she finally asked me to cum. To quote Goodfellas, "Oh, allright. "

I would reccomend her. Enjoy.

Since I am staying in "LaProv" for a few days and my long awaited reunion with Danielle is a no go due to a number that is no good, I am thinking of taking the AMP plunge.

While CBJ and CFS for 2 bills isn't all that appealing for me, the idea of a massage of sorts, and a chance to experience some action on my backside is.

I know there are no guarantees in life but aside from everything I picked up by RTFF, if anyone wants to give me a tip on transitioning from SW and CL girls to AMP scene, and how to say "I want your tongue there" in Korean, I'd appreciate it.

I'll be sure to be back with a detailed report when I get home Tuesday.

I know a few words phrases you can google around to look for translations.

Pronounced "eep" means mouth with hand signals maybe you can do it.

"hanna" means you are number one (the best).

"joo-say-oh" please or more please.

Good luck

Hi Newbie to the forum here. Just curious if the Hanna at 1021 is the same Hanna that worked at VIP Spa in Providence many years ago? Tall, tight body very pretty face and absolutely sweet person. Thanks if anyone knows. Looking forward to adding some posts as I get back into going to AMP's

Just like to make a comment after reading all of the posts. How it is nice too see you guys treating the girls with respect and just shows that we are not the low life degenerates that a lot of people believe go to these places.

I decided I wanted a real massage and was willing to foregoe the excitement that can be obtained from CH or DT, so I went to Lily Tuesday around 3:00p. I was initially greeted by Tina - she was wearing a thin-string blouse and a tight and short pair of blue-jean pants. I may guess her age to be ~35+, below-the-shoulder length hair and pretty face. She greeted me with a hug and was overall very pleasant. I opted for a 1.5 hour massage for $90.

Standard fare in the TS with thorough wash and some simple contact. I was offered a sauna but declined, then off to the massage room. She draped a sheet over me but I requested she not use it, and she was more than willing to oblige and patted my butt in gesture.

The massage was above average, not the most spectacular I have had. She was very good with a good overall experience, but not the best in terms of sensual massage or anything like that. She did allow roaming and got up on the table while performing the final HE event. Good girl, we did click but stays at standard and does not really exceed.

I saw several decent looking girls walking in, around and out of Lily's. In my opinion, this is the best place for great massage, decent girls (some girls are more frisky than others!), and a good dependable experience. I have read that other girls mentioned more recently have been providing more on the sensual side of experiences (Mimi?).

I had a FANTASTIC visit to Lily's last night while out with two buddies. I've been to other places that are similar, but this was my first time at Lily's. After dinner, massages for all of us really hit the spot. There were plenty of pretty girls on without too many other customers, so we had a great selection.

The girl I had was a beautiful young girl who said her name was Monica. She had a little trouble pronouncing it, but I think what she said was "Monica". Anyway, she was beautiful and young and we had a good rapport right from the beginning.

She brought me back and forth from the room to the sauna, then from the sauna to the TS room, each time holding my hand all the way. The TS was great with some good teasing.

The massage was also exceptional. Clearly, she has had some bona fide training in massage. She was up on the table several times, straddling me while massaging my back and letting her long hair gently sweep along my back and neck.

Once the flip came, she seemed pleased with how aroused she had gotten me and then went to work, slowly building up to an incredible release. She cleaned me up with a hot towel and then continued with more massage. At the end she even helped me get dressed and gave me a very sweet kiss on the cheek.

I tipped her .6 and she seemed very pleased with that. All in all, Lily's was a great experience. I'll definitely be back.

Don't know about the rest of you gentlemen, BUT, I would feel 1000% better about this report if he had 50 or 100 previous reports under his belt.

Nice generous tip and a few dime words make me think this is not on the level, but a way for Lilly's to combat the fall off in traffic.

Any other opinions?

[QUOTE=Harderik]I had a FANTASTIC visit to Lily's last night while out with two buddies. I've been to other places that are similar, but this was my first time at Lily's. After dinner, massages for all of us really hit the spot. There were plenty of pretty girls on without too many other customers, so we had a great selection.

The girl I had was a beautiful young girl who said her name was Monica. She had a little trouble pronouncing it, but I think what she said was "Monica". Anyway, she was beautiful and young and we had a good rapport right from the beginning.

She brought me back and forth from the room to the sauna, then from the sauna to the TS room, each time holding my hand all the way. The TS was great with some good teasing.

The massage was also exceptional. Clearly, she has had some bona fide training in massage. She was up on the table several times, straddling me while massaging my back and letting her long hair gently sweep along my back and neck.

Once the flip came, she seemed pleased with how aroused she had gotten me and then went to work, slowly building up to an incredible release. She cleaned me up with a hot towel and then continued with more massage. At the end she even helped me get dressed and gave me a very sweet kiss on the cheek.

I tipped her .6 and she seemed very pleased with that. All in all, Lily's was a great experience. I'll definitely be back.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Chd86]Hi Newbie to the forum here. Just curious if the Hanna at 1021 is the same Hanna that worked at VIP Spa in Providence many years ago? Tall, tight body very pretty face and absolutely sweet person. Thanks if anyone knows. Looking forward to adding some posts as I get back into going to AMP's

Yes I believe this is the same Hanna... She worked at several of the parlors over the years. Just last week while I was waiting for Yung, she gave me a great masssage. BTW did you know that Hanna means #1

Have fun...

Tony

Tony thank you sir, you just made my night! I have always wondered what happened to her. Hopefully it is the same girl and I can get a massage from her also. From what I remember she gave a great massage and TS. All and all even as a person the time spent with her was wonderful. Seems by other posts she is just the mamasan though.

Happy Thanksgiving

[QUOTE=DaddysLookin]Don't know about the rest of you gentlemen, BUT, I would feel 1000% better about this report if he had 50 or 100 previous reports under his belt.

Nice generous tip and a few dime words make me think this is not on the level, but a way for Lilly's to combat the fall off in traffic.

Any other opinions?[/QUOTE]Hey, take it or leave it, man. It may be my first post to the forum, but I'm just telling you what I experienced. If I were working in behalf of Lily's, do you really think my grammar would be that good? LOL

Went to pleasant street on Monday. Had a young girl named jade. Says only there 1 month. Ts was ok the massege was the worst ever. She covered me with a sheet, than no topless. Wanted to HJ me with condom on. What a waste of money I will never go there again.

If you had more experience on here, I would take the report with a degree of credibility. In the mean time. I'll pass till I hear more.

[QUOTE=Harderik]Hey, take it or leave it, man. It may be my first post to the forum, but I'm just telling you what I experienced. If I were working in behalf of Lily's, do you really think my grammar would be that good? LOL[/QUOTE]

Just got home from my first visit to 1021. The area was a bit seedy but wasn’t nearly as bad as I expected. No one was hanging around was pretty desolate.

Walked up the stairs and when I got to the door it was already opened and Hanna greeted me with a smile. She led me to the room and said $60 for house. I gave her the money and she left the room and told me to get undressed. Then my girl walked in really pretty face nice tan, great legs and chest. Her name was Eddie not sure of the spelling. She helped me get undressed and wrapped the towel around my waist and led me to the TS. Someone was walking around so they threw me into the sauna. When the coast was clear she came and got me. I peeked out the window because I saw this absolutely stunning girl.

I forgot how much I loved TS. I really enjoyed it she did a really good job, not too teasing but then again is there anything bad about a beautiful girl soaping you up? She gave me a mini massage before she rinsed me off. I turned over and repeated spent a little extra time on the boys and asked ok? Well, of course it’s ok. She dried me off and we walked back to the room and she finished drying me off.

Then she started talking business. She asked me if I wanted everything? I played a little stupid and said not sure what you mean. From reading the posts on here I had an idea. I only had $80 so whatever I got was going to be less than that or no more than that. She motioned her arms and hips back and forth and said bang bang. She looked too cute doing that. She said $150 I said I didn’t want everything we settled on $60 for HR. I gave her the money and she left the room and came back. She seemed a bit disappointed but not quite angry like some of the other posts I had read. Maybe she gave me the benefit of the doubt since I said it was my first time there. She told me to lay on the table and we would do that first. I started to think that I wasn’t going to get the massage and it was just going to be the extras. She put some lotion in her hand and got to work. She took her time and kept a smile on her face. She used her fingertips on the head and used to other hand to rub my inner thighs and the boys. I was a bit bummed since I didn’t get to see anything, I am thinking now I should have asked if she could have done it topless. I said Dang sheen oon aroom dahp gunyo she smiled and said thank you. The look on her face was like wow how do you know that. It means you are beautiful in Korean. I think I won some brownie crumbs for that haha. She gasped when I was done since it has been a long time for me I don’t think she was quite expecting as much to come out that did. She cleaned me up still smiling so I guess she couldn’t have been too upset? I turned over and she rubbed my legs for a couple of minutes and said brb and left the room. Then Hanna came back in and said that she would be doing the massage. I was a little bummed that this wasn’t the same Hanna I used to see many years ago but she was still really nice.

It was a nice massage, not quite the kind that I like typically since it was more of the pushing and squeezing type and not the rubbing kind that I like. It was still good though, I asked her if the other girl was mad she said no she busy.

It was a bit weird since you can pretty much hear everything that is going on. One girl sounded like she was being murdered. Someone was working her over pretty good or at least sounded so. It was all kind of surreal. When the massage was over Hanna helped me get dressed which was nice. I told her I was sorry that I didn’t have anymore money she said don’t worry next time bring more and have more fun.

Since I am more of a HR and nudity, touching and licking more than FS. This will probably be my first and last time going there. Maybe I will try some of the other places. Or maybe one day I will try something new and go for the full thing.

I went in and got back to my car in about 30 minutes. I am used to getting the full massage and then whatever happens after. But, I guess most people aren’t going there so much for the massage as the extras. So I guess that’s my fault.

Made another trip to central yesterday, and drew Nikki. Tall, really skinny, good english. She has a little flaming heart tattoo on her left hip. She recognized me immediately and chastized me for being away so long.

It was pretty busy. Doorbell kept ringing. For all that, we spent an unhurried hour, and I left $.4 lighter, plus .6 for the house.

Has anyone actually paid the extra 20 for "massage," vs. "body rub?"

Sunny at Lilly is a nice catch. Pretty, tight body, B’s, mentioned she’s 22yrs old. My guess would be 28+. Good English speaking. TS was fair, massage was excellent. Very little touching though. No biggy. Unfortunately my new medication made it difficult to reach the ultimate. She was very very patient and she was very determined to succeed. So happy she was working last night. Great girl! She actually put in over my hour to complete. Used some nice index techniques. And even a little massage after the ending. Dressed me to go, Very sweet but I think she was happy to see me go after that work out. I usually tip .4, for average, I gave her.6, for the extra extra effort she really deserved .8 for all the effort. She would have had it if I came in with it.

There will be a next time if she’s up to it. haha

[QUOTE=Ampdude 2003]I decided I wanted a real massage and was willing to foregoe the excitement that can be obtained from CH or DT, so I went to Lily Tuesday around 3:00p. I was initially greeted by Tina - she was wearing a thin-string blouse and a tight and short pair of blue-jean pants. I may guess her age to be ~35+, below-the-shoulder length hair and pretty face. She greeted me with a hug and was overall very pleasant. I opted for a 1.5 hour massage for $90.

Standard fare in the TS with thorough wash and some simple contact. I was offered a sauna but declined, then off to the massage room. She draped a sheet over me but I requested she not use it, and she was more than willing to oblige and patted my butt in gesture.

The massage was above average, not the most spectacular I have had. She was very good with a good overall experience, but not the best in terms of sensual massage or anything like that. She did allow roaming and got up on the table while performing the final HE event. Good girl, we did click but stays at standard and does not really exceed.

I saw several decent looking girls walking in, around and out of Lily's. In my opinion, this is the best place for great massage, decent girls (some girls are more frisky than others!), and a good dependable experience. I have read that other girls mentioned more recently have been providing more on the sensual side of experiences (Mimi?).[/QUOTE]

I have liked my experiences with Tina at Lily. Glad to see she is still there.

I never asked for anything beyond 1 hour there but a 1.5 hour massage sounds good.

Went by NM Spa last night because I was looking for of a good message. Was greeted at the door by a man for the first time in years. Didn't really bother me since he was very down to earth and professional. I did find out that starting today (Dec 1st) rates go up to 70 dollars. He brought me into a room; I undress and waited for my girl. She came in by a matter of minutes for my TS. She was very nice looking for an older women and she had a great ass and tits. The TS was relaxing and she hit the right spots (over & over). We went back to the room and she started my message, great massage. She even jumped onto the table with me. Did the flip and she ask me if I wanted her to massage the guys? No roaming under her clothes but she did let me feel her ass and tits. I know the NM Spa isn't like DT or Lily's but out of all the Amps I've been to they give the best massage and include a nice "Happy Ending". I'm really bummed that the price is going up but I'll still visit.

[QUOTE=Shredded House]Went by NM Spa last night ... I did find out that starting today (Dec 1st) rates go up to 70 dollars.[/QUOTE] I can't help but wonder whether this is a sign of things to come at all local AMPs, or whether this house fee increase is simply restricted to just NM Spa.
Time will tell...

Guest123

[QUOTE=Chd86]Just got home from my first visit to 1021. The area was a bit seedy but wasn’t nearly as bad as I expected. No one was hanging around was pretty desola[/QUOTE]Guys, is Yong still working there? Or They have changed new people already?

I went there few times months ago, all with Yong. She is really good, good attidute, good massage, good GFE. I like her service. Seems like the new girls are not as good as the old one!

Btw, Tina in LIly, she seems like come and go a few times with Lily. I wonder why? If looking for good massage, Lily is always my choice. With $, I am satisfy. Other places like CH, DT, 1021, the girls are expecting more than HR. They are eager to work for $$.

Recently start doing research NJ, seems like that place is gem. Tons of good review about the AMP in NJ.

Happy good hunting, guys!

Hayas

[QUOTE=Shredded House]Went by NM Spa last night because I was looking for of a good message. Was greeted at the door by a man for the first time in years. Didn't really bother me since he was very down to earth and professional. I did find out that starting today (Dec 1st) rates go up to 70 dollars. He brought me into a room; I undress and waited for my girl. She came in by a matter of minutes for my TS. She was very nice looking for an older women and she had a great ass and tits. The TS was relaxing and she hit the right spots (over & over). We went back to the room and she started my message, great massage. She even jumped onto the table with me. Did the flip and she ask me if I wanted her to massage the guys? No roaming under her clothes but she did let me feel her ass and tits. I know the NM Spa isn't like DT or Lily's but out of all the Amps I've been to they give the best massage and include a nice "Happy Ending". I'm really bummed that the price is going up but I'll still visit.[/QUOTE]Hate to sound like a newbie, but where's the NM? I haven't heard of it before.

Went to Pleasant Spa today, I was the only one there, asked for my pick of the girls (which I never do) and ended up with an older (30) girl named Connie, she spoke very good english. Had a great TS then off to the sauna for a few minutes, when we got to the room she asked how I liked it. And I told her I like a soft touch with alot of attention to the butt. Well she gave me a great ass massage. Fingers, boobs, even some long tongue action. I didn't even need to do a "flip". I arched up enough and she gave me a nice reach arounf HR while licking my ass.

Definetly would go back. 60 for 45 min and. 60 for her.

I have nt been to NM in awhile.

I had some decent quality massages in the past.

I dont recall any stories of "extended extras" from NM.I have had better massages from the more "middle aged" ladies than the "younger more attractive" ladies there with the end result being the same. I m the type to prefer a very good/decent massage at the sacrifice(not total though) of taking the older/most likely more experienced massage provider.

Do they still have those "fishy" looking signs on the walls asking not to?