The Woodshed

[QUOTE=LowBaller;5803851]Providers are offering us mongers a service. Hence, comparing buying 30 minutes of FS fun from a hottie with buying a Lexus is mentally incorrect and just plain wrong. Services simply are not things and cannot really be logically compared with things like cars! Further, whether a monger likes to buy expensive cars, or cheap cars has nothing to do with a monger's desire for providers or for the coins he is willing to pay, and to compare those is a logic error and false.

Some argue that high quality provers will move away if mongers offer to pay the providers less than their asking price. As proof they point to the lack of quality in Jax right now. But, there is no reason a provider would move out of town because some mongers offered her less. In fact, currently many mongers are paying the full asking price, so I can use the same proof and say that the not negotiating has made the current lack of quality in providers. What is the reason for the current lack of quality? I do not really know; I have no answer. Perhaps it just runs in wave cycles.
[/QUOTE]I used a cars metaphore because a cars value is subjective much like a provider. Any car that does more than get you from point A to point B has a subjective value, just like all providers have a subjective value. What you find valuable about them could be a range of things from the way they look, feel, bragging rights, fit, comfort. The list goes on and on. But ultimately it is a means to an end. And to state that my (along with many others) view point is wrong without a counter reason is incredibly illogical. Your hangup is undoubtable pricing, which is why you are trying to get everyone else on this board to follow your lead, but you claim it is not about price. Really, 10,20, hell even 50 to 100 dollars is inconsiquencial for many of us, but for you it literally defines whether someone is worth your time. The reality is, unless they are desperate; you're not worth their time. And your so stuck on the trees you can't see the forest. Many of us want at least a few nice reliable girls we can see without worrying about issues, and want to see them regularly. Your tactics might get you a nut at a discounted rate in the short term, but adds to the hassle the provider goes through, and there are unfortuantly enough mongers like yourself doing the same thing, causing them to move to places like Orlando and Atlanta as Poke pointed out. A city where there are over a million and a half people should have at least a handful of decent providers, but the reality is I don't blame them for leaving after dealing with this day in and day out. Most other major cities are not like this (hell not even major, medium ones are way better), it sucks for those of us that look past the moment. Clearly from the posts you have given us your main desire is not just to spend some intimate time with someone, you demean the women and are proud enough to brag about it. My goal by having this open discussion is to hopefully catch the attention of quality providers that are reading this board, so they know there are good mongers out here that understand they are people too. While also hopefully offering a counter argument to deter others that have any interest in having long time quality providers. Quality is also very subjective, and clearly our definitions of quality are quite different; and that is okay.

Moral of the story, don't be this guy:

[URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgHcYxKjwVE[/URL]

[QUOTE=JustinCider904;5804176]I used a cars metaphore because a cars value is subjective much like a provider. Any car that does more than get you from point A to point B has a subjective value, just like all providers have a subjective value. What you find valuable about them could be a range of things from the way they look, feel, bragging rights, fit, comfort. The list goes on and on. But ultimately it is a means to an end. And to state that my (along with many others) view point is wrong without a counter reason is incredibly illogical. Your hangup is undoubtable pricing, which is why you are trying to get everyone else on this board to follow your lead, but you claim it is not about price. Really, 10,20, hell even 50 to 100 dollars is inconsiquencial for many of us, but for you it literally defines whether someone is worth your time. The reality is, unless they are desperate; you're not worth their time. And your so stuck on the trees you can't see the forest. Many of us want at least a few nice reliable girls we can see without worrying about issues, and want to see them regularly. Your tactics might get you a nut at a discounted rate in the short term, but adds to the hassle the provider goes through, and there are unfortuantly enough mongers like yourself doing the same thing, causing them to move to places like Orlando and Atlanta as Poke pointed out.[/QUOTE]I understood every word written. Also, the lack of logic and critical thinking. Plus the personal attacks when attempts at logic failed. Noticed it all and understood it all. As for subjective, I am the one that raised that point and kept trying to keep the argument logical and on point instead of emotional and personal attacks.

Also, you seem to know a lot, but you have no proof, no statistical support, like your dictate saying offering mid-priced providers caused them to move out of town. Hence, you demanded I quit offering such providers less than their full price. And then some stuff that the poor providers are working so hard, it is mean for me to offer them less. I am so mean. Yep, I got it all, every jumbled, mixed up thought of it.

Point is, providers expect to have lower prices offered. The logic that these poor girls need to be paid their full asking price is simple provider=logic and silly.

Bottom line, I probably see the same providers you see and have the same fun with them and pay them. 50 or more less! If one gets his jollies paying more for the same provider and the same services, then that is cool, to each his own. But, do not attack me for paying less to that same provider you see.

Providers do not respect guys without balls who cannot make them a counter offer, it is that simple. Excuses, excuses can not cover up that fact.

Mongers, let's make this non-personal, providers jacked up the prices and we need to have the balls to make a counter offer for. 10 or. 20 less. Only then will providers respect us and their services improve.

[QUOTE=LowBaller;5804335]I understood every word written. Also, the lack of logic and critical thinking. Plus the personal attacks when attempts at logic failed. Noticed it all and understood it all. As for subjective, I am the one that raised that point and kept trying to keep the argument logical and on point instead of emotional and personal attacks.

Providers do not respect guys without balls who cannot make them a counter offer, it is that simple. Excuses, excuses can not cover up that fact.

Mongers, let's make this non-personal, providers jacked up the prices and we need to have the balls to make a counter offer for. 10 or. 20 less. Only then will providers respect us and their services improve.[/QUOTE]Sir you made it personal with the statement "mentally incorrect". As you seem to somehow find yourself a scholar of some sort, mental is a personal state of being and not a general statement about a population or position. So, you can use that logic on yourself. And my statement wasn't a personal attack but a statement of reasonable logic from statements you make in your posts about how you treat these women and what you think about them. Your abusive attitude and tactics are destroying it for the rest of us, and your trying to force feed it down members throats by claiming you're the "man with balls" for negotiating and everyone else can have balls to if they act like you. This is laughable in so many ways. No question that most women like a strong man and respect this position, but abuse does not equal strong. And furthermore, as you have made it a point to bring up over and over; this is a financial transation. The provider does not pick who she is going to see based off how "strong" the person comes off, this statement alone suggests you are looking for some form of respect by your tactics. Since these girls are only intersted in the mighty dollar, in what world do they respect someone offering them the lowest amount at their most desprate time? I do not believe I am the one being illogical here. I brought up your past posts and obvious patterns of abuse not to personally attack you but to put into context that your idea of fun is not being intimate, it is power. This power trip, while by itself in a vacuum, does limited damage to the providers psyche that carries over farther than just your session. But when multiplied causes a total breakdown at worst, or them to reconsider the business or our area at best. Which hurts it for those of us looking for a different type of good time.

I get it, you get your validation from percived respect of "winning" a bidding war with the provider; and the sex is the by product. And there is nothing any of us can do to stop you, but this selfishness kills it for the rest of us. And to be clear, I want to draw a very distenct line between the tactics of Low Baller, and those of Powerhouse. From the information provided, Powerhouse seems to offer a provider what he deems a fair rate and if they do not accept he respectfully moves on. This is not necessarly what I am advocating against, it is the relentless need to bring the price down and taking advantage of desperate time or mood to do so. We are all taking advantage of these providers to a point, as they are of us. But kicking them when they are down is just so unhuman IMO.

[QUOTE=JustinCider904;5804725]Sir you made it personal with the statement "mentally incorrect". As you seem to somehow find yourself a scholar of some sort, mental is a personal state of being and not a general statement about a population or position. So, you can use that logic on yourself. And my statement wasn't a personal attack but a statement of reasonable logic from statements you make in your posts about how you treat these women and what you think about them. Your abusive attitude and tactics are destroying it for the rest of us, and your trying to force feed it down members throats by claiming you're the "man with balls" for negotiating and everyone else can have balls to if they act like you. This is laughable in so many ways. No question that most women like a strong man and respect this position, but abuse does not equal strong. And furthermore, as you have made it a point to bring up over and over; this is a financial transation. The provider does not pick who she is going to see based off how "strong" the person comes off, this statement alone suggests you are looking for some form of respect by your tactics. Since these girls are only intersted in the mighty dollar, in what world do they respect someone offering them the lowest amount at their most desprate time? I do not believe I am the one being illogical here. I brought up your past posts and obvious patterns of abuse not to personally attack you but to put into context that your idea of fun is not being intimate, it is power. This power trip, while by itself in a vacuum, does limited damage to the providers psyche that carries over farther than just your session. But when multiplied causes a total breakdown at worst, or them to reconsider the business or our area at best. Which hurts it for those of us looking for a different type of good time.

I get it, you get your validation from percived respect of "winning" a bidding war with the provider; and the sex is the by product. And there is nothing any of us can do to stop you, but this selfishness kills it for the rest of us. And to be clear, I want to draw a very distenct line between the tactics of Low Baller, and those of Powerhouse. From the information provided, Powerhouse seems to offer a provider what he deems a fair rate and if they do not accept he respectfully moves on. This is not necessarly what I am advocating against, it is the relentless need to bring the price down and taking advantage of desperate time or mood to do so. We are all taking advantage of these providers to a point, as they are of us. But kicking them when they are down is just so unhuman IMO.[/QUOTE]Like I said, we see some the same providers, several of them know who you are from your intimacy desire and wanting to pay full asking price. As an example, the UTR provider we both see told me she gagged due to the odor coming from your jr. I gave her some packs of wipes from my car so she could wipe you down below the next time you visited. Point is, price is not everything, providers get turned off by mongers like you having odor down below. So, let's quit talking about paying full price as a way to get better quality and instead talk about better hygiene. We mongers complain when a provider has odor down below, well if we want them fresh down below, then we should also be fresh and clean down below. Maybe then we would have more out of town providers visiting Jax! Let's not scare them away boys.

Several touring providers avoid JAX because they perceive the mongers here as being incredibly cheap.

I understand the value of negotiation, and I don't partake of a particular provider's services if I think she is asking more than I would get from the transaction, but providers who have the option are avoiding coming here because of this. And the ones who have the options are generally higher quality providers.

Screw a bunch of negotiation!

Like most grownups my life is filled with negotiation. This "hobby" is a diversion. An occasional walk on the wild side. It's tasting a little forbidden fruit now & then, and I am way more concerned about avoiding the no-shit risks involved than dickering over dollars with a woman who almost certainly needs the cash more than I do.

First rule of negotiation: if you can walk away, you are in control of the conversation. Also, there is an inverse relationship between trying to control the conversation & actually controlling it.

I know I pay a little more than some. I consistently get rewarded for it.

But you do you.

[QUOTE=PlayTiem;5808287]Several touring providers avoid JAX because they perceive the mongers here as being incredibly cheap.

I understand the value of negotiation, and I don't partake of a particular provider's services if I think she is asking more than I would get from the transaction, but providers who have the option are avoiding coming here because of this. And the ones who have the options are generally higher quality providers.[/QUOTE]I slowly seen the downfall of jax like pretty much all of us. Sure people haggle to much, yet the quality doesn't merit the price. Pretty sure we all walked into a little situation where price is not even a conversation. Its known, you slip it on the donation plate and get your blessing. Yet, for me atleast my itch can't be scratched here anymore, so size the quality up and send out offers. Think financially we are set here, but the thought for paying for subpar talent is beneath me atleast. Think about it when does it end? Let's say you have a lassy who you break off the same breadcrumbs for years. She's does her thing. A little caveat here, we know bozos is going to pay whatever the sewer rats quote which why we seen their quotes increase. They had bits of cheese, but now they want the breadcrumbs. There some hidden board out there the ladies visit, so they either get the info of rates there or they see on ads.

If sewer rats are getting breadcrumbs, then ofcourse she wants a slice now. Which is cool. Then guess what the sewer rats wants a slice now, so guess what. She going to want two. On and on. So gets to the point where the quality don't match the quote. So we believe they are not worth what they are quoting, at the same time they think we are clutching our bread, where we really trying to bring their head from the clouds. I can go other states and get a phenomenal cleansing for under a buck. Yet same can be said over a buck when I was up north. It was worth it.

Yet here atleast the "higher-end" ladies seem to be on the spectrum for being cordial and safe environment, which is comfortable, yet same time not exciting.

Yet these streets calling me I yearn for the thrill LOL.

*stands on soapbox*.

I personally don't think the situation is going to improve until we, as johns / clients / hobbyists, start telling politicians to back off on stupid ideas for trying to deal with legitimate sex trafficking.

Shutting down Craigslist and Backpage and the review sites did nothing to fight traffickers. And while I'm not trying to trivialize the real harm done, the truth is that most reported estimates of sex trafficking are wildly overestimated.

[URL]https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2018/10/11/are-people-day-trafficked-right-front-our-eyes-nope/[/URL]

[URL]https://whyy.org/segments/fosta-sesta-was-supposed-to-thwart-sex-trafficking-instead-its-sparked-a-movement/[/URL]

SESTA / FOSTA made hobbying more dangerous for both johns and sex workers.

We need to move sex work from the underground status it's in now to something more legitimate, where we can talk openly about safe situations for both johns and sex workers. It's ridiculous that it's hard to identify dangerous providers, just as it's ridiculous for sex workers to not be able to identify dangerous men who abuse the service they provide.

Most of us just want to be able to see a provider who's not going to rob us, not going to pass on a dangerous STD, and is going to be clear-headed enough to have a fun time with at a price agreed to by both parties. We do this in every other economic transaction we conduct in our lives. Why is sex work so hard to do this with? The puritanical approach isn't working and never did.

Sex work is real work. The sex economy is a real economy. Sex work needs to be legitimized to make it safer and more fun for all.

[QUOTE=PervNerd48;5812611]*stands on soapbox*.

I personally don't think the situation is going to improve until we, as johns / clients / hobbyists, start telling politicians to back off on stupid ideas for trying to deal with legitimate sex trafficking.

Shutting down Craigslist and Backpage and the review sites did nothing to fight traffickers. And while I'm not trying to trivialize the real harm done, the truth is that most reported estimates of sex trafficking are wildly overestimated.

[URL]https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2018/10/11/are-people-day-trafficked-right-front-our-eyes-nope/[/URL]

[URL]https://whyy.org/segments/fosta-sesta-was-supposed-to-thwart-sex-trafficking-instead-its-sparked-a-movement/[/URL]

SESTA / FOSTA made hobbying more dangerous for both johns and sex workers.

We need to move sex work from the underground status it's in now to something more legitimate, where we can talk openly about safe situations for both johns and sex workers. It's ridiculous that it's hard to identify dangerous providers, just as it's ridiculous for sex workers to not be able to identify dangerous men who abuse the service they provide..[/QUOTE]Sure, I would vote for that and most others would too. Neither party actually supports this. Democrats want the Scandinavian model (girls are victims and Johns are abusers) and Republicans think it is unbiblical or whatever. That said, the Jax scene is worse than a number of either Republican areas (such as Dallas) or liberal areas (the NYC / NJ areas comes to mind). The Dallas area is particularly interesting since hobbying is now a felony in TX.

Someone needs to open an agency here or something. Until someone gets the talent and makes it available we're going to keep staying in this mess.

[QUOTE=PervNerd48;5812611]*stands on soapbox*.

I personally don't think the situation is going to improve until we, as johns / clients / hobbyists, start telling politicians to back off on stupid ideas for trying to deal with legitimate sex trafficking.

Shutting down Craigslist and Backpage and the review sites did nothing to fight traffickers. And while I'm not trying to trivialize the real harm done, the truth is that most reported estimates of sex trafficking are wildly overestimated.

[URL]https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2018/10/11/are-people-day-trafficked-right-front-our-eyes-nope/[/URL]

[URL]https://whyy.org/segments/fosta-sesta-was-supposed-to-thwart-sex-trafficking-instead-its-sparked-a-movement/[/URL]

SESTA / FOSTA made hobbying more dangerous for both johns and sex workers.

We need to move sex work from the underground status it's in now to something more legitimate, where we can talk openly about safe situations for both johns and sex workers. It's ridiculous that it's hard to identify dangerous providers, just as it's ridiculous for sex workers to not be able to identify dangerous men who abuse the service they provide.

Most of us just want to be able to see a provider who's not going to rob us, not going to pass on a dangerous STD, and is going to be clear-headed enough to have a fun time with at a price agreed to by both parties. We do this in every other economic transaction we conduct in our lives. Why is sex work so hard to do this with? The puritanical approach isn't working and never did.

Sex work is real work. The sex economy is a real economy. Sex work needs to be legitimized to make it safer and more fun for all.[/QUOTE]I totally agree with you. Making sex work legal is safer for everyone, all peer reviewed data shows this. Other than Farming, there is no older profession, so it is really difficult to understand the constant resistance to it. The biggest issue is the majority of female voters will not go for it, and almost no sober married male will opening side with this position. Thus the conundrum, as these are two of the largest voting demographics.

[QUOTE=PervNerd48;5812611]*stands on soapbox*.

I personally don't think the situation is going to improve until we, as johns / clients / hobbyists, start telling politicians to back off on stupid ideas for trying to deal with legitimate sex trafficking.

Shutting down Craigslist and Backpage and the review sites did nothing to fight traffickers. And while I'm not trying to trivialize the real harm done, the truth is that most reported estimates of sex trafficking are wildly overestimated.

[URL]https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2018/10/11/are-people-day-trafficked-right-front-our-eyes-nope/[/URL]

[URL]https://whyy.org/segments/fosta-sesta-was-supposed-to-thwart-sex-trafficking-instead-its-sparked-a-movement/[/URL]

SESTA / FOSTA made hobbying more dangerous for both johns and sex workers.

We need to move sex work from the underground status it's in now to something more legitimate, where we can talk openly about safe situations for both johns and sex workers. It's ridiculous that it's hard to identify dangerous providers, just as it's ridiculous for sex workers to not be able to identify dangerous men who abuse the service they provide.

Most of us just want to be able to see a provider who's not going to rob us, not going to pass on a dangerous STD, and is going to be clear-headed enough to have a fun time with at a price agreed to by both parties. We do this in every other economic transaction we conduct in our lives. Why is sex work so hard to do this with? The puritanical approach isn't working and never did.

Sex work is real work. The sex economy is a real economy. Sex work needs to be legitimized to make it safer and more fun for all.[/QUOTE]I completely agree with all of this. However, in the legal brothels in Nevada, at least, condoms are required for everything, including BJs, which would be a deal-breaker for me. One of the girls from one of these establishments, BTW, is Alice Little, who has some free YouTube videos and maintains a pretty amusing blog.

Yeah, you can officially chalk this one up as a waste. You can tell this broad is one of those white chicks who spent way too much time around trash, and thinks that just because she has friends that she can play that role too. You all know the type I'm talking about.

Either way, she's the only white stripper in Cocktails I've seen thus far. I'm not going to bother with this chick. If any of you decide to try, I won't stop you.

I'm done for the night. Going to maybe go for a drunken walk now.

E. X.

Dude you do understand those girls are there to work. Which means they need money. You go in there saying that you're not going to spend any. WTF do you expect them to act like? They just want to entertain you for free? Go to a regular bar and see how that goes for you.

[QUOTE=MouthHunter;5815919]Dude you do understand those girls are there to work. Which means they need money. You go in there saying that you're not going to spend any. WTF do you expect them to act like? They just want to entertain you for free? Go to a regular bar and see how that goes for you.[/QUOTE]If your looking for a girl to start up a conversation with you for free you best off going to a regular bar. Now a days in strip clubs you got to tip them to approach you on anything. You might on rare occasions have a girl approach you and ask you about your day but it's super rare. If you just sit in the corner the women are just going to think your a weirdo or a creep. And if your looking for white girls the best club on the west side is solid gold.

[QUOTE=MouthHunter;5815919]Dude you do understand those girls are there to work. Which means they need money. You go in there saying that you're not going to spend any. WTF do you expect them to act like? They just want to entertain you for free? Go to a regular bar and see how that goes for you.[/QUOTE]Where. Exactly did I say I was coming in here not looking to spend money? I know I was drunk, but I've never once uttered those words. So like before, maybe you also have me confused with someone else, because I ever once said that. The most I said was that I was going to go find a dark corner so I don't get harassed for money. Yeah, because I literally JUST walked in. Nobody likes being jumped at the door.

If you and the other guy aren't going to actually read what I said, ask questions. Don't make things up that I never said.