"Sugar Babies" and "Arrangements"

[QUOTE=SoonerFan72;5103318]You guys assume that every girl on there is dialed in to some back channel that says ask for 500 per meet. There are just as many clueless ladies on there that will meet for 200 ppm. Its a lot of work, and you have to have some game, but the cheap ones are still there. I've banged some of the hottest chics of my life in the last year, and haven't paid more then 300 ppm. I've got a few local MILF's that will meet anytime our schedules connect for 200, and will fuck you silly. Yes, there are dudes ruining the market, but its not all the market. I've found that if you just chat with them, be cool, and when the time to discuss money comes around, just politely say no thanks. I've had more then one 500 chic drop her price to 300 cause I was just really cool to them, and didn't treat them like a piece of meat. And to the guys who are chatting these chics up for days before talking money, you are wasting time. You should know within the first day how much they want, and if its going to work out. Oh, and in almost 3 years of playing on SA, I've had a total of one meet and greet. Every other time, I've met the chic at the hotel or her house, and we both knew what was going to happen. Don't waste your time and money onn dates, unless you enjoy that part, just politely cut to the chase.

Anyways, not meaning to sound like a rant, just offering up some lessons learned over the years. Good luck.[/QUOTE]3.

Unlike Sooner I like the dating aspect of SA as it fills out my social life a bit & working from home I notice I'm a bit relationship deprived.

A girls comfort level with you has a lot to do with pricing. I usually never bring up numbers with the girl before the meet & greet. I'm a late 40's white guy who dresses somewhat upscale & drives a newer european suv. For the meet & greet, showing up freshly showered, dressed nice, & spending $60 on lunch to impress her a bit I personally thinks goes a long way to easing any type of insecurities they have with you. This leads to lower pricing, if you show up looking like the comic book guy off of the Simpsons most girls are going to quote you a higher price because of the "popularity" factor. Being a bit nerdy or shy is normal in sugar dating but being attentive & showing interest in the girl goes a long way to easy their concerns. I think this leads to lower pricing treating the girls nice & giving them a bit of fantasy of a older guy wining & dining them.

To me a bunch of girls are looking to plug a hole they have in their finances, if you figure the majority of 23 to 29 year old females either have 1 roommate or live alone, their biggest expense is rent. Average rent is usually $800 for a girl with a roommate to $1600 for a girl with an apartment. I always ask them about their living situation as this gives me a clue as to what type of "help" they need. Take their monthly rent & divide by 4 or 6. If a girl is a recent college grad making $50k a year & living alone in mid-town, her rent is $1600, car is usually $400 & another $150 for insurance. She is now down to about $1k for all her other expenses. If she has a SD who can pay her $1k to $1.5k a month basically covering her rent, then she has some breathing room & can save for vacations or pay her college loans. Most girls with roommates are working service jobs & quite a few of them use the money for trips or just to make ends meet.

99% of the UTR types we are after are worried about being a one night stand, A lot of times a girl will quote you a higher price say $350. If this is a girl I want to sugar date for a few months I will counter & say look let's do $300 for our first 2 meets & then move to $200. I've had a lot of success with this strategy & if the sex is good then I have a girl I can see multiple times for $200. This is how I started with my current 23 year old college aged girl.

$250 is usually the breaking point for me financially as there are too many fish in the sea to pay more, $200 is the sweet spot. I've had several sugar relationships where I have paid upfront $800 to $1 k a month for allowance, for me this works best as I get 4 to 6 visits a month & it turns into a legit friends with benefits relationship.

[QUOTE=SoonerFan72;5103318]You guys assume that every girl on there is dialed in to some back channel that says ask for 500 per meet. There are just as many clueless ladies on there that will meet for 200 ppm. Its a lot of work, and you have to have some game, but the cheap ones are still there. I've banged some of the hottest chics of my life in the last year, and haven't paid more then 300 ppm. I've got a few local MILF's that will meet anytime our schedules connect for 200, and will fuck you silly. Yes, there are dudes ruining the market, but its not all the market. I've found that if you just chat with them, be cool, and when the time to discuss money comes around, just politely say no thanks. I've had more then one 500 chic drop her price to 300 cause I was just really cool to them, and didn't treat them like a piece of meat. And to the guys who are chatting these chics up for days before talking money, you are wasting time. You should know within the first day how much they want, and if its going to work out. Oh, and in almost 3 years of playing on SA, I've had a total of one meet and greet. Every other time, I've met the chic at the hotel or her house, and we both knew what was going to happen. Don't waste your time and money onn dates, unless you enjoy that part, just politely cut to the chase.

Anyways, not meaning to sound like a rant, just offering up some lessons learned over the years. Good luck[/QUOTE]Sounds like a gold mine to me.

[QUOTE=SeekingHead;5103500]3.

Unlike Sooner I like the dating aspect of SA as it fills out my social life a bit & working from home I notice I'm a bit relationship deprived.

A girls comfort level with you has a lot to do with pricing. I usually never bring up numbers with the girl before the meet & greet. I'm a late 40's white guy who dresses somewhat upscale & drives a newer european suv. For the meet & greet, showing up freshly showered, dressed nice, & spending $60 on lunch to impress her a bit I personally thinks goes a long way to easing any type of insecurities they have with you. This leads to lower pricing, if you show up looking like the comic book guy off of the Simpsons most girls are going to quote you a higher price because of the "popularity" factor. Being a bit nerdy or shy is normal in sugar dating but being attentive & showing interest in the girl goes a long way to easy their concerns. I think this leads to lower pricing treating the girls nice & giving them a bit of fantasy of a older guy wining & dining them.

To me a bunch of girls are looking to plug a hole they have in their finances, if you figure the majority of 23 to 29 year old females either have 1 roommate or live alone, their biggest expense is rent. Average rent is usually $800 for a girl with a roommate to $1600 for a girl with an apartment. I always ask them about their living situation as this gives me a clue as to what type of "help" they need. Take their monthly rent & divide by 4 or 6. If a girl is a recent college grad making $50k a year & living alone in mid-town, her rent is $1600, car is usually $400 & another $150 for insurance. She is now down to about $1k for all her other expenses. If she has a SD who can pay her $1k to $1.5k a month basically covering her rent, then she has some breathing room & can save for vacations or pay her college loans. Most girls with roommates are working service jobs & quite a few of them use the money for trips or just to make ends meet.

99% of the UTR types we are after are worried about being a one night stand, A lot of times a girl will quote you a higher price say $350. If this is a girl I want to sugar date for a few months I will counter & say look let's do $300 for our first 2 meets & then move to $200. I've had a lot of success with this strategy & if the sex is good then I have a girl I can see multiple times for $200. This is how I started with my current 23 year old college aged girl.

$250 is usually the breaking point for me financially as there are too many fish in the sea to pay more, $200 is the sweet spot. I've had several sugar relationships where I have paid upfront $800 to $1 k a month for allowance, for me this works best as I get 4 to 6 visits a month & it turns into a legit friends with benefits relationship.[/QUOTE]So what happens to the relationship as time goes on?

[QUOTE=SeekingHead;5103500]3.

Unlike Sooner I like the dating aspect of SA as it fills out my social life a bit & working from home I notice I'm a bit relationship deprived.

A girls comfort level with you has a lot to do with pricing. I usually never bring up numbers with the girl before the meet & greet. I'm a late 40's white guy who dresses somewhat upscale & drives a newer european suv. For the meet & greet, showing up freshly showered, dressed nice, & spending $60 on lunch to impress her a bit I personally thinks goes a long way to easing any type of insecurities they have with you. This leads to lower pricing, if you show up looking like the comic book guy off of the Simpsons most girls are going to quote you a higher price because of the "popularity" factor. Being a bit nerdy or shy is normal in sugar dating but being attentive & showing interest in the girl goes a long way to easy their concerns. I think this leads to lower pricing treating the girls nice & giving them a bit of fantasy of a older guy wining & dining them.

To me a bunch of girls are looking to plug a hole they have in their finances, if you figure the majority of 23 to 29 year old females either have 1 roommate or live alone, their biggest expense is rent. Average rent is usually $800 for a girl with a roommate to $1600 for a girl with an apartment. I always ask them about their living situation as this gives me a clue as to what type of "help" they need. Take their monthly rent & divide by 4 or 6. If a girl is a recent college grad making $50k a year & living alone in mid-town, her rent is $1600, car is usually $400 & another $150 for insurance. She is now down to about $1k for all her other expenses. If she has a SD who can pay her $1k to $1.5k a month basically covering her rent, then she has some breathing room & can save for vacations or pay her college loans. Most girls with roommates are working service jobs & quite a few of them use the money for trips or just to make ends meet.[/QUOTE]Let's face it, it don't take any gane to pay for pussy. You might call it gane but all I see is whether you are willing to succumb to her high ass demands or if you willing to walk away. True game would have you blowing her back out whenever you want for free while some other guy pays her monthly expenses for a date or 2 a month if even that. If your meeting a girl off seeking then its already established that you coming out your pockets. And paying 60 dollars or whatever for lunch is not what's making these women more comfortable with you. Not being a creep, being freshly showered and smelling good only helps her decide whether she even going to waste any time with you. All that extra shit only going to make her realize she can get more dough out of you. If you have true game you can fuck these hoes for free. Trust me they fucking someone for free. You'll just have to weed out all the ones who are strictly about money by how you set up your profile. But if no money is spoken about before or during the meet and your profile ensenuates that your just looking for casual dating then having game would matter as far as how the interaction goes in person just like any normal woman. My point is no game is needed to pay for pussy. Just having some self respect and not putting these women on a pedestal is all that is required to consistently succeed when paying for pussy.

[QUOTE=PunkedLife;5103826]Let's face it, it don't take any gane to pay for pussy. You might call it gane but all I see is whether you are willing to succumb to her high ass demands or if you willing to walk away. True game would have you blowing her back out whenever you want for free while some other guy pays her monthly expenses for a date or 2 a month if even that. If your meeting a girl off seeking then its already established that you coming out your pockets. And paying 60 dollars or whatever for lunch is not what's making these women more comfortable with you. Not being a creep, being freshly showered and smelling good only helps her decide whether she even going to waste any time with you. All that extra shit only going to make her realize she can get more dough out of you. If you have true game you can fuck these hoes for free. Trust me they fucking someone for free. You'll just have to weed out all the ones who are strictly about money by how you set up your profile. But if no money is spoken about before or during the meet and your profile ensenuates that your just looking for casual dating then having game would matter as far as how the interaction goes in person just like any normal woman. My point is no game is needed to pay for pussy. Just having some self respect and not putting these women on a pedestal is all that is required to consistently succeed when paying for pussy.[/QUOTE]Sheeee!! You're lowering these guys self-inflated ego. They all feel that they got "game" while waving their wallets around to get laid. Double LOL.

[URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/445b6aa1-8b5f-4c6c-8f75-0b99be64b422[/URL]

Wants 500-600 PPM, can't host, asks that you pay for her gas. May come down but didn't try.

[QUOTE=BraveJohn;5103769]So what happens to the relationship as time goes on?[/QUOTE]Usually lasts about 4 to 12 months. For me it works as I'm getting steady sex with no commitment or monogamy, I'll sprinkle an escort or massage girl in between.

[QUOTE=HollowGuy;5094827]Has anyone sen this girl looking for information on her is real or a scammer?

[URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/33c53f60-6bf8-4bdb-bc09-2f66fb8e3838[/URL][/QUOTE]Reviewing her profile 4 things that are evident to me.

1. 21 year old is not getting a doctorate in psychology period that is a 10 to 12 year haul. My sister is a psychologist and she was dual enrolled and still took her until she was 26 to finish her degree.

2. She certainly is not going into pharma sales either.

3. She can't write a coherent thought either. That profile is all over the place.

4. The Pro vibe is strong with this one.

Exactly! This girl reached out to me on Seeking, wanted $400-$500 per meet. Needs gas money upfront but isn't available much because she works? She said she'd text and set up a time and I said you need m number. Then blocked. Looks like a scammer to me.

[QUOTE=BmSable;5104155][URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/445b6aa1-8b5f-4c6c-8f75-0b99be64b422[/URL]

Wants 500-600 PPM, can't host, asks that you pay for her gas. May come down but didn't try.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=JohnnyMapalo;5104041]Sheeee!! You're lowering these guys self-inflated ego. They all feel that they got "game" while waving their wallets around to get laid. Double LOL.[/QUOTE]Paying them to leave & keep their problems away from me.

[QUOTE=JohnnyMapalo;5104041]Sheeee!! You're lowering these guys self-inflated ego. They all feel that they got "game" while waving their wallets around to get laid. Double LOL.[/QUOTE]Just the opposite. If I still had the "game" with which I was blessed in my younger single days, I'd be hitting with hot young women for nothing or, at most, the cost of a cheap dinner date. I know early 20's hotties don't want to jump in bed with me for free any more. I'm a decade past those good old days. Fortunately, I have money now to make up for it.

[QUOTE=CuriousInquir;5104659]Just the opposite. If I still had the "game" with which I was blessed in my younger single days, I'd be hitting with hot young women for nothing or, at most, the cost of a cheap dinner date. I know early 20's hotties don't want to jump in bed with me for free any more. I'm a decade past those good old days. Fortunately, I have money now to make up for it.[/QUOTE]Well said my man. I'd also add that I'm getting more action now close to 59, than I did at 19 or 29, because I do have money to make up for it.

Although, I do still have it enough that several girls will jump in bed with me for less when we become "regulars" and even reach out to me on occasion to just hang out (GFE). So I must be doing something right, LOL.

[QUOTE=SeekingHead;5104646]Paying them to leave & keep their problems away from me.[/QUOTE]When I first started out and met Ginger Taylor who was newb friendly, she told me almost exactly the same thing which always stuck with me: "you're not paying us for our time, you're paying us to go away afterwards".

[QUOTE=BraveJohn;5103769]So what happens to the relationship as time goes on?[/QUOTE]Well, it depends, there are a few ladies with whom you will develop a close emotional connection over time. For example, there is a lady I've known for 12+ years, she retired 10 years ago and every time we meet the sex gets even more intense. IMO, the best setup is having an ongoing sexual relationship with a provider who has since retired or left the business. It's simply the best experience all around.

[QUOTE=SgtSoros;5104928]Well, it depends, there are a few ladies with whom you will develop a close emotional connection over time. For example, there is a lady I've known for 12+ years, she retired 10 years ago and every time we meet the sex gets even more intense. IMO, the best setup is having an ongoing sexual relationship with a provider who has since retired or left the business. It's simply the best experience all around[/QUOTE]Hey Sarge. Got a question about your arrangement with your retiree, since I have a stripper / sugar baby who told me she's about to retire at the end of the year and go back to 9-5 work. Do you still us a ppm, or is it totally consensual, or what type of arrangement did you agree on? TIA.

[QUOTE=Frankie14;5104701]Well said my man. I'd also add that I'm getting more action now close to 59, than I did at 19 or 29, because I do have money to make up for it.

Although, I do still have it enough that several girls will jump in bed with me for less when we become "regulars" and even reach out to me on occasion to just hang out (GFE). So I must be doing something right, LOL.[/QUOTE]Exactly, I am now pulling the 18-21 year old over the top hot college / sorority girls that were ignoring me when I was that age. It BLOWS my mind how good I / we have it right now with SA.

[QUOTE=Jims2321;5104233]Reviewing her profile 4 things that are evident to me.

1. 21 year old is not getting a doctorate in psychology period that is a 10 to 12 year haul. My sister is a psychologist and she was dual enrolled and still took her until she was 26 to finish her degree.

2. She certainly is not going into pharma sales either.

3. She can't write a coherent thought either. That profile is all over the place.

4. The Pro vibe is strong with this one.[/QUOTE]It is so funny to see how so many SBs try to inflate their educational level. And of course I always crack up about how many of them are full time students regardless of age. You may still be in school in your 30's or 40's, but it's rarely full time, especially for an undergraduate degree.

Hey all,

I just wanted to share that there is a girl named Jenny that I found on Established Men. I've seen her close to a dozen times. I've been able to have great sloppy BBBJ and bare FS. He makes me nut so fast! I usually last quite a while, but hers usually turn into QV's, LOL, unless we decide to go grab lunch, liquor or something. She initially hosted, but then a cousin moved in so we had to opt for car visits. Since I have a quad cab truck it still works fine.

She's decent looking but like I said I don't last too long with her when we get down to business.

[QUOTE=Harley32;5105271]It is so funny to see how so many SBs try to inflate their educational level. And of course I always crack up about how many of them are full time students regardless of age. You may still be in school in your 30's or 40's, but it's rarely full time, especially for an undergraduate degree.[/QUOTE]It is funny, LOL. I wonder why they seem like they need to impress us intellectually. That's certainly not the reason I'm there to see them, haha. There are also some who seem to always be on the brink of starting some business venture, enterprise, or children's charity.

[QUOTE=Frankie14;5105285]He makes me nut so fast![/QUOTE]Just a PSA to always proofread, LOL.

[QUOTE=PunkedLife;5103826]Let's face it, it don't take any gane to pay for pussy. You might call it gane but all I see is whether you are willing to succumb to her high ass demands or if you willing to walk away. True game would have you blowing her back out whenever you want for free while some other guy pays her monthly expenses for a date or 2 a month if even that. If your meeting a girl off seeking then its already established that you coming out your pockets. And paying 60 dollars or whatever for lunch is not what's making these women more comfortable with you. Not being a creep, being freshly showered and smelling good only helps her decide whether she even going to waste any time with you. All that extra shit only going to make her realize she can get more dough out of you. If you have true game you can fuck these hoes for free. Trust me they fucking someone for free. You'll just have to weed out all the ones who are strictly about money by how you set up your profile. But if no money is spoken about before or during the meet and your profile ensenuates that your just looking for casual dating then having game would matter as far as how the interaction goes in person just like any normal woman. My point is no game is needed to pay for pussy. Just having some self respect and not putting these women on a pedestal is all that is required to consistently succeed when paying for pussy.[/QUOTE]Definitely the difference between SA and Ashley Madison and AFF.

[QUOTE=YeOldHornDawg;5105574]Just a PSA to always proofread, LOL.[/QUOTE]Um, yeah. So how do I edit my post?

How about a link Junior member.

[QUOTE=Frankie14;5105285]Hey all,

I just wanted to share that there is a girl named Jenny that I found on Established Men. I've seen her close to a dozen times. I've been able to have great sloppy BBBJ and bare FS. He makes me nut so fast! I usually last quite a while, but hers usually turn into QV's, LOL, unless we decide to go grab lunch, liquor or something. She initially hosted, but then a cousin moved in so we had to opt for car visits. Since I have a quad cab truck it still works fine.

She's decent looking but like I said I don't last too long with her when we get down to business.[/QUOTE]

I have a question. Why does SA think that generating fake favorites from fucking Omaha Nebraska or Venezuela and sending to me think I'm going to spend money on their site? Anybody?

[QUOTE=Gavin1112;5105732]How about a link Junior member.[/QUOTE]And, yes, it was a type. Definitely a "she" Here is the link:

[URL]https://establishedmen.com/profiles/Ohheyyjenny[/URL]

[QUOTE=YeOldHornDawg;5105574]Just a PSA to always proofread, LOL.[/QUOTE]That just made me spit my drink out laughing.

Throwing another one out to you guys. I have not met her, but I think she is legit. Was willing to meet for 200 straight to the room. Didn't feel like a pro, more like a party girl who has done this a few times. Pictures are accurate, she is a little older, but still very cute. No menu was discussed. Treat her nice, she should respond well.

[URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/1d74f091-1029-43a0-af63-b334ee301c44[/URL]

[QUOTE=SoonerFan72;5106369]Throwing another one out to you guys. I have not met her, but I think she is legit. Was willing to meet for 200 straight to the room. Didn't feel like a pro, more like a party girl who has done this a few times. Pictures are accurate, she is a little older, but still very cute. No menu was discussed. Treat her nice, she should respond well.

[URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/1d74f091-1029-43a0-af63-b334ee301c44[/URL][/QUOTE]I just viewed her page and it states that she is seeking a platonic relationship. I don't know if that will attract much attention. Most of us here are likely seeking a more sexual encounter.

This one wants $500 for a public meet and greet.

[URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/79732788-1e0e-419b-971b-a9a7c20374ec[/URL]

Anyone tag it yet? Has a body built for sin.

[URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/ec88850a-9547-45bf-92ed-76d3f1171a7a[/URL]

The link so people can view.

[QUOTE=Frankie14;5105722]Um, yeah. So how do I edit my post?[/QUOTE]

Former Porn actress. Lives with current SD. Is in the Alpharetta Johns Creek area. Has 2 profiles on Seeking. She's ok a little rough face and nice bolt on's. She's about a 6 w body.

[QUOTE=JustMikey;5107145]Anyone tag it yet? Has a body built for sin.

[URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/ec88850a-9547-45bf-92ed-76d3f1171a7a[/URL][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Gavin1112;5107191]Former Porn actress. Lives with current SD. Is in the Alpharetta Johns Creek area. Has 2 profiles on Seeking. She's ok a little rough face and nice bolt on's. She's about a 6 w body.[/QUOTE]I'm a big porn fan, didn't recognize her. Do you know her stage name? How's her performance?

[QUOTE=BearsBuddy;5107004]This one wants $500 for a public meet and greet.

[URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/79732788-1e0e-419b-971b-a9a7c20374ec[/URL][/QUOTE]Hopefully no one here is that desperate! Definitely too steep for anything IMHO, especially public meet and greet. I guess unless you really have $$ to burn.

TOFTT. Texted back and forth and everything seemed fine until we eventually met up. I showed up to her place and she was piss drunk, wouldn't shut up, and had a really nasty attitude. Avoid at all cost.

[URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/17b38077-93c1-4a8d-a18c-edaafd54ed55[/URL]

[QUOTE=BmSable;5099309][URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/a4c16a5b-cf0c-4864-afdb-dad268845235[/URL]

Asks for card information before meeting LOL.[/QUOTE]Maybe she's had success with some poor sucker? Still I don't know where they come up with this stuff and think it'll actually work.

[QUOTE=Jaypl;5107425]TOFTT. Texted back and forth and everything seemed fine until we eventually met up. I showed up to her place and she was piss drunk, wouldn't shut up, and had a really nasty attitude. Avoid at all cost.

[URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/17b38077-93c1-4a8d-a18c-edaafd54ed55[/URL][/QUOTE]I had a chick about 3 months ago show up for our first fuck up drunk as fuck & she puked on my carpet. Passed out on my carpet, I let her sober up, fed her, then fucked the shit out of her for 3 hours, nutting 2 x. Sex was good but passed due me having to pay $99 to get the carpet steamed.

[QUOTE=SeekingHead;5108333]I had a chick about 3 months ago show up for our first fuck up drunk as fuck & she puked on my carpet. Passed out on my carpet, I let her sober up, fed her, then fucked the shit out of her for 3 hours, nutting 2 x. Sex was good but passed due me having to pay $99 to get the carpet steamed.[/QUOTE]Too funny. Are you not worried about some of these crazy ladies know where you live?

[QUOTE=Harley32;5108352]Too funny. Are you not worried about some of these crazy ladies know where you live?[/QUOTE]She was the worst one out of around 40 girls I've picked up off of SA, the only crazy I've ever collected was the long term chick I hooked up with for over a year. She was a solid 8 in the body, & had a 36 DD rack, 6 in the face. I would have loved to have fucked her before her 2 kids came out.

She had a lot of issues with alcohol & I wouldn't let her drink around me as she would get out of control or I would watch her drinking to limit her. Her biggest issue was tolerance & she would get sloppy drunk after 3 drinks, but in her defense she was down for about anything though, & I hit all 3 holes almost every session. My first anal experience was with her. We went out to watch NFL games at BW's, came home & she wanted to shower, before getting in the bed. While in the shower together, she gave me a blowjob for a bit, bent over & said put it in my ass.

I tend to stay away from the bat shit crazy by having lunch with them. Usually you can tell if they are on meds or drugs as they will not eat or just have a couple of drinks. Most of the college age hotties I am after, usually pig out & slam a couple of drinks.

Some of you may remember that about a year ago I convinced the sister of one of my young employees to meet me as a sugar baby. She had never done anything like it before and it was a fun one time experience with one of the most fantastic 25-year-old bodies I've ever seen.

Well, I have stumbled into another one. I joined seeking's sister site what's your price and ended up meeting with a girl who claimed to be 19. I was able to Google her phone number to find out she's currently a senior high school and only 18. She's never done anything like this before and is actually in a relationship with a equally attractive 19-year-old female!

Definitely going to work this one more slowly but it's amazing what you can randomly find now and then.