"Sugarbabies" / "Arrangements" Amateurs or Not?

IS she or isn't she? : That is the question.

I agree with Hollywood about a real SB having one SD and that more than one SD (paying customer) approaches Pro status. If good looking girls would pay me to sleep with them, I would be a Pro all the way! But what's in a label? As a guy investing my time, energy, money, and freedom I prefer to have a Baby who only sees one at a time = ME. The problem is, unless you are providing her with complete support at a high level, we really don't have the right to demand monogamy. Ask for it is one thing, but we are setting them up for failure. The key to monogamy is to capture them emotionally. When they love you they will not want to see others. We all have different opinions on the subject and each to his own. My multiyear ATF SB was seeing 3 of us, and my latest was actively prospecting SA and SDFM later in our relationship. They needed more money.

Never forget Gents, THE GIRLS ARE HERE FOR MONEY. They aren't looking for the love of their life. Sure, they hope to have a good time, cool experiences, maybe even sex with an experienced guy, but the bottom line is some level of support.

" Last time she had fckd was Christmas and that she felt like it was Christmas all over again. " Roleur.

Dang those were deep and long lasting bruises! 6 mos. Well, they fit your hand so she is consistent with the size guy she likes. Lying be*&5 ch Well Bro, if the price was right use her as an UTR when you have an opening in your schedule.

Scotty, as we said "welcome Back " --where the hell are you? Get posting Brother!

Hi,

Long time lurker here.

Reasons? I live overseas, so a lot of my experience is not relevant. ($ values, economic needs of SB difference etc). I am senior on a couple of p4 p and Philippine boards, so don't need to post irrelevant stuff to get post numbers up. You guys have posted some awesome stuff, so I don't need to post stupid questions. There's lots in the forum. So many thanks.

My own experience of the sugar bowl started over ten years ago, when a flatmate had some financial problems. However, being her flatmate, I knew she was high risk because she had multiple guys per week. For free. When I declined the offer, she came back with a proposal to introduce me to someone. In short, young married couple, overnight for the price of an hour escort, everything on the buffet, bareback. I was fifty, so that was a good deal. My flatmate facilitated several more of these for a few years till I shifted state for work.

Then I went to the Phil's on vacation. Forget any bs that you see in the media, the scene there is not, repeat, not point and click p4 p, it is better described as sugar bowl on training wheels. The M&G is arranged for you in bars in places like Subic and Angeles City, but they can and will refuse you, and they can and will apply GPS principles. People going there from a p4 p perspective can be just as shocked as if they think p4 p principles will work in the SBowl. They don't. OTOH, if you like Asian women, and want some real GFE overnight for 2000 Pesos. With SB skills developed here, you are well ahead.

The other thing that I found in my country is that many of the SB are married or have partners. However, they represent themselves as single on SA etc. That explains a lot of flakiness IMHO. Even if the partner knows and agrees with what is going on, they have a lot of obligations on weekends with in-laws and friends they have to work around.

I have found that subtly letting Pots know that I am OK with married women has increased my 'hit' rate enormously.

Worries about pregnancy and std issues are less too with married SB, and they need to be just as discreet as we are.

Fellow SDs,

A couple of questions that I am pondering:

1. Which site has yielded you the best results SA or SD4 M? Any differences in the types of SBs you are finding on the different sites?

2. What is your frequency of assistance? Per meeting or monthly?

3. I am hesitant to post a picture, if you have posted a pic do you have better results?

4. A number of SDs are communicating that their assistance is only $ per meeting, I really don't get it as any girl can get a bar or food service job in the big city and clear $$ per night via legit work.

5. Do you use a template in initial email contact? What is your response rate?

6. Searching through the site I really can't find a FAQ with all the abbreviations defined: I am wondering what NANDO means.

Thanks,

Took the bikes out for a ride on the 4th up and down the beach. There was just an incredible influx of hot women in small bikinis. Spent they day wondering which ones had SD's. Kind of explains my luck when there are so many around.

As for your questions Latex, which site is best seems to vary geographically. In my area SA has worked well, AF seems to have more pros, have not tried SD4 me, but have had luck running a talent ad on CL. I have a private photo which I share after they express interest, and I have in my profile that I do not care about marital status. As for making 2 bills a night in a legitimate job. I don't think you are connected to the real world. Yes there are some jobs in some areas where they can do that, but in my city only bartenders in the high end establishments average that, and it is seasonal, not regular income. Married women in the bowl, college students and single moms typically have much lower paying jobs. I have some I contribute more to, but most are 1 to 1. 50 per visit.

Update. Halfway through my busy week. Translator and I went at it after her birthday lunch. Countertop sex in the kitchen, a new one for me. Still the best lay I have had in ages. Second in the rotation the model, would have been great if I was not seeing the translator. She is over her BJ hangup and still has the hottest body, but takes more than she gives in bed. My 4th visit with the" married but left home alone" got postponed to this afternoon due to my SO taking yesterday off. My SO was feeling randy after our bike ride and took care of business on the ottoman like we used to when we were dating.

[QUOTE=FredMoore;2142210]
Never forget Gents, THE GIRLS ARE HERE FOR MONEY. They aren't looking for the love of their life. Sure, they hope to have a good time, cool experiences, maybe even sex with an experienced guy, but the bottom line is some level of support.[/QUOTE]The thing is though all women are looking for some level of support. So, if that's our criteria for a pro, there is no such thing as an SB or an escort at all. From a logical standpoint that would mean all women are the same and they are all pros. It's like saying just because all men want sex, and because all men provide some sort of support (even if it is providing a home for their wife), then we are all just johns paying hookers.

I'm never one to try to change another man's opinion, but in a public forum I do think it's very important to separate opinion from facts. There's nothing I could say about the categorization of SBs versus UTRs versus escorts that I could proclaim is factual, it's just my opinion. But the important thing is that we never narrow our thinking to the point that we start believing that definitions are created only from our own experiences. Just because we have not experienced, something doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that someone else hasn't experienced it.

I personally have experienced SBs who would not take my money. I have met those who are in search of love (even though that's not what I'm looking for). If all we have is a hammer, the whole world starts looking like a nail. If there is one thing I could say that goes beyond opinion and enters the realm of fact, it is that if we approach girls online with offers for money, we are only going to be able to attract UTRs and pros. There's nothing wrong with doing that, but it's important to dodge delusions that what we see in our own personal approach is all that exists.

I personally don't want to see the entire SB scene turned into a pure UTR scene just because that's what some people are doing. Granted, there is a LOT of UTR experiences to be had there, and there can be a fine line between a true SB and a UTR. But losing sight of the difference or denying it exists isn't good for any of us in the bowl.

[QUOTE=Latex;2142631]4. A number of SDs are communicating that their assistance is only $ per meeting, I really don't get it as any girl can get a bar or food service job in the big city and clear $$ per night via legit work.
[/QUOTE]As at least one other person has pointed out, clearing $$ per night for service jobs is pretty much the exception, not the rule. Keeping in mind the limitations of anecdotal evidence, my SB basically clears about a little over half a $ per day. That's after a couple of years in one of the more labor-friendly food chains. As low-paying as it is, she considers herself lucky to have the job, as most of the alternatives in the service / unskilled labor market pay less.

This isn't a big city area, but it's only about 90 minutes to the nearest one, and the cost of living here isn't outrageous but nor is it cheap. She's going to school, with zero assistance from her parents, and there's no way she could pull that off on just her regular job.

We started out at $$/ visit, but have since moved on to a less rigid arrangement. Earning about 3 x of a day at her regular job in exchange for 4-6 hours of naked fun is a good deal. Even if she weren't smitten with me and having the best sex of her life, those financials are quite compelling.

[QUOTE=Latex;2142631]Fellow SDs,

A couple of questions that I am pondering:

1. Which site has yielded you the best results SA or SD4 M? Any differences in the types of SBs you are finding on the different sites?

2. What is your frequency of assistance? Per meeting or monthly?

3. I am hesitant to post a picture, if you have posted a pic do you have better results?

4. A number of SDs are communicating that their assistance is only $ per meeting, I really don't get it as any girl can get a bar or food service job in the big city and clear $$ per night via legit work.

5. Do you use a template in initial email contact? What is your response rate?

6. Searching through the site I really can't find a FAQ with all the abbreviations defined: I am wondering what NANDO means.

Thanks,[/QUOTE]1. SA and ads on CL have given me the best results, SD4 M has been a waste of my time and recurring billing is all but impossible to put a stop to. Some brothers report mixed results with other sites, so I suggest you try some of the other ones and see how they work for your location.

2. I always pay per meeting, I have never used a monthly allowance.

3. On SA, I have a public pic that gives a bit of an idea of what I look like while still obscuring my identity. I have a few private pics that show what I look like, but I only show those to POTs that show an interest in me.

4. The POTs I've spoken to have always wanted more than $ per visit, so I can't speak for the guys who are able to get POTs for only $.

5. On SA, 99.9% of the time I use a copied and pasted message that I try to add a bit of personalization based on a POTs profile. Hard to tell what the response rate is, maybe 50/50.

6. Nando is / was a contributor to this thread who once posted a breakdown of the types and personalities of some of the POTs one may encounter while searching for a SB (my apologies, but I don't recall his full user name). The POT who has no job, not going to school, seems to have no end of drama and "emergencies" which require immediate need for cash he classified as a Nando1 . And so Nando1 became the term for any POT who may be a good temporary / short-term SB but in the long run will probably prove to be more trouble than she's worth.

Some things I stumbled upon that improved my situation within the sugar bowl. A website air bnb the newest trend in house, condo and luxury apartment rentals, most often even by the day will allow you to rent a condo, penthouse, or home you can pull off as your own if you're slick. I used it a few times with my SB's and it was awesome. Rented a luxury condo, fully furnished, etc in the heart of Philly for $100 a night. My SB was impressed and truly thought it was my place. Haha.

Another is to create a solid alibi for those who have an SO. When I had my 4 year affair, I went on all kinds of trips with old long lost "friends. " a cabin camping trip, sea fishing, helped an ole bro move a yacht, etc. Etc. I had a few people that SO could call and verify and they played the role. I then went away with my mistress and drew little to no suspicion. The alibi would fill in blanks about long lost days of the past, growing up together, tell my SO about his SO, kids etc. We could use a little networking on here like that it seems. .

[QUOTE=FotoGuy1970;2143215]1. SA and ads on CL have given me the best results, SD4 M has been a waste of my time and recurring billing is all but impossible to put a stop to. Some brothers report mixed results with other sites, so I suggest you try some of the other ones and see how they work for your location.

2. I always pay per meeting, I have never used a monthly allowance.

3. On SA, I have a public pic that gives a bit of an idea of what I look like while still obscuring my identity. I have a few private pics that show what I look like, but I only show those to POTs that show an interest in me.

4. The POTs I've spoken to have always wanted more than $ per visit, so I can't speak for the guys who are able to get POTs for only $.

5. On SA, 99.9% of the time I use a copied and pasted message that I try to add a bit of personalization based on a POTs profile. Hard to tell what the response rate is, maybe 50/50.

6. Nando is / was a contributor to this thread who once posted a breakdown of the types and personalities of some of the POTs one may encounter while searching for a SB (my apologies, but I don't recall his full user name). The POT who has no job, not going to school, seems to have no end of drama and "emergencies" which require immediate need for cash he classified as a Nando1 . And so Nando1 became the term for any POT who may be a good temporary / short-term SB but in the long run will probably prove to be more trouble than she's worth.[/QUOTE]I swear by SD4 M, but it is a minefield of pros, utr's, gps, not so good looking girls, and on and on. Lots of nando 1 types, but if you date 18 to 22 there are going to be more of those anyway. Unless a girl is in some type of adult entertainment (and even if she is), a $ a date is ok money. I said ok, not great or awesome. There has to be more than the $ to keep these girls coming back for more. Like a shoulder to cry on, killer sex, good advice, but something more.

As I reported here before the original SB who developed deep feelings and love for me, met her entire family and vowed never to let me go; well, she has to go. No reason and no fault of her own, I just can't do it. The age difference is too vast and the $ I'm spending is probably triple just seeing regular SB's. I can't help but feel like fucking shit, as I've tried different ways over the past few days to let her go and she cries, pleads and begs. I fall for her crying little ways every fucking time and then we rebuild. I have feelings for her as well, but fucking hell, I can't jump in with both feet. I just can't do it. So tomorrow, I'm just going to tell her and let her go. I expect a bad fallout, as family and such are not well onboard with this relationship.

After this, I will NEVER allow my sself to get feelings in the Sugar bowl again. NEVER! Too much pain and anguish. Will report back on the nuclear fallout. Driving to Virginia to tell her in person tomorrow night.

Dirty.

[QUOTE=DirtyDeeds38;2143276]As I reported here before the original SB who developed deep feelings and love for me, met her entire family and vowed never to let me go; well, she has to go. No reason and no fault of her own, I just can't do it. The age difference is too vast and the $ I'm spending is probably triple just seeing regular SB's. I can't help but feel like fucking shit, as I've tried different ways over the past few days to let her go and she cries, pleads and begs. I fall for her crying little ways every fucking time and then we rebuild. I have feelings for her as well, but fucking hell, I can't jump in with both feet. I just can't do it. So tomorrow, I'm just going to tell her and let her go. I expect a bad fallout, as family and such are not well onboard with this relationship.

After this, I will NEVER allow my sself to get feelings in the Sugar bowl again. NEVER! Too much pain and anguish. Will report back on the nuclear fallout. Driving to Virginia to tell her in person tomorrow night.

Dirty.[/QUOTE]Triple?. No wonder she's crying. Tell her its a $ a date and let her break up with you. I promise you'll feel better no matter what happens. Just txt her and see what she says.

Took me a bit but I found it. The brother in question was Hernando. His post that classified some of the POTs that one may meet in the bowl (including the now legendary classification "Nando1") can be found at post #779.

[URL]http://www.usasexguide.info/forum/showthread.php?9746-quot-Sugarbabies-quot-quot-Arrangements-quot-Amateurs-or-Not&p=1330891[/URL]

I have tried both SA and SD4 M; with much more success on SA, but I've put more into it. The recurring billing IS a pain. CL is nothing but spammers. The couple of real girls I have met there were nothing to write home about, with the exception of one hit 18 yo who told me she wanted to be a porn star and is well on her way to full pro status. My #1 SB is 500 a month, with twice a week agreed to, but we're not really hitting that. She probably is averaging about $ per visit. I am picking up a new girl that I met last week in a few hours for an overnight, with $ agreed to, once or twice a week. I have a date on Monday with another new girl that I had dinner with the other night, she has agreed to $$ per week for two visits. She is a true first timer, single mom, two jobs, and a cut above the rest on looks and brains. I really hope she pans out, but I'm not 100% sure she won't get cold feet at the last minute. The most I've paid was $. 5 per visit. I have probably missed out on some of the hotter local college girls because of that, but frequency is important, too.

[QUOTE=DirtyDeeds38;2143276]As I reported here before the original SB who developed deep feelings and love for me, met her entire family and vowed never to let me go; well, she has to go. No reason and no fault of her own, I just can't do it. The age difference is too vast and the $ I'm spending is probably triple just seeing regular SB's. I can't help but feel like fucking shit, as I've tried different ways over the past few days to let her go and she cries, pleads and begs. I fall for her crying little ways every fucking time and then we rebuild. I have feelings for her as well, but fucking hell, I can't jump in with both feet. I just can't do it. So tomorrow, I'm just going to tell her and let her go. I expect a bad fallout, as family and such are not well onboard with this relationship.

After this, I will NEVER allow my sself to get feelings in the Sugar bowl again. NEVER! Too much pain and anguish. Will report back on the nuclear fallout. Driving to Virginia to tell her in person tomorrow night.

Dirty.[/QUOTE]You're fooling yourself. All she cares about is the $$. Whats that saying about massage parlor girls? "Man who looks for love in a massage parlor gets neither a good massage nor a happy ending". The same thing applies to any girl where the immediate, direct transaction is based on the exchange of money. These girls are here to be used for sex. Nothing more. Nothing less. View it as something different at your peril.

[QUOTE=Capricaone;2143712]You're fooling yourself. All she cares about is the $$. Whats that saying about massage parlor girls? "Man who looks for love in a massage parlor gets neither a good massage nor a happy ending". The same thing applies to any girl where the immediate, direct transaction is based on the exchange of money. These girls are here to be used for sex. Nothing more. Nothing less. View it as something different at your peril.[/QUOTE]Did you follow his previous reports on this particular girl? I'm pretty sure he said he already tested her by removing money from the equation a while back.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;2143756]Did you follow his previous reports on this particular girl? I'm pretty sure he said he already tested her by removing money from the equation a while back.[/QUOTE]The SB in question, without doubt has / had true feelings. Problem is her age being so young, she still has not maneuvered through cycles of what it takes to make a man feel secure with her. She likes to party, go out with friends, flirt and all that comes with being a typical 21 yo girl. However, she also wants true love, stability and all that comes with that. I know her feelings are genuine, but so is her age and what she is not ready to overcome. I met her entire family for Pete's sake. Even her dad who is not the nicest of characters. Somehow they all approved of me. She is from a small town in rural Western Virginia and has not seen much outside her small town. Judging her at a raw level, she is sweet natured, loving, and naive. She claims to have had 9 sexual partners her entire life. Six boyfriends and three SD's date type things including me. So yeah, she slept with two other men for $. So having been around this hobby and other related hobbies for a bit, once a girl gets a taste for quick easy money like that, it's all but impossible for her to shake it, until she is put through the ringer of reality and usually used up by then.

Bottom line, she is not relationship material, mostly due to her age. So I'm dumping her ass and going back to regular Sugar bowl experiences. Life is short, I want more experiences before the ole general will no longer rise to the occasion. Funny thing is, once you've been with a 21 year old girl for a while in the real relationship type scenario, the novelty wears off and her being so young and pretty fades. She just becomes another woman to you. Sometimes I am mesmerized by her face and youthful beauty. She is a pretty girl, but her lying, immature ways, are not something I even remotely care to deal with in my mid-40's.

So back in the bowl I go. Hopefully the fallout with her with no go nuclear. .

[QUOTE=DirtyDeeds38;2143794]
Bottom line, she is not relationship material, mostly due to her age. So I'm dumping her ass and going back to regular Sugar bowl experiences. Life is short, I want more experiences before the ole general will no longer rise to the occasion. Funny thing is, once you've been with a 21 year old girl for a while in the real relationship type scenario, the novelty wears off and her being so young and pretty fades. [/QUOTE]You met a true SB, and yes they can be a pain in the ass, because they are often motivated by more than money. I think a lot of folks would be surprised how many 20-somethings are genuinely attracted to older guys and want something beyond (but of course preferably in addition to) money, if they can get it.

When I was civy dating, I sometimes encountered girls that were SBs but not officially in the way we think of with so many of these UTR girls on the SD sites. One that comes to mind was a girl I met on a civy dating site that was fresh out of college. Yes she wanted support in the sense she was still figuring out how to support herself, but aside from letting me buy her dinner there was never an expectation for money. What she REALLY wanted was for me to teach her how to get involved in the industry I am in -- maybe not just get her a job but to teach her the ropes. So in a way she was fucking me for career advice and mentoring, and an occasional trip to a restaurant or nightclub. I lived alone at the time so bringing her to my house to spend the night was a no-cost situation. Similar to what you've described, she wasn't even close to real relationship material to me. Just being around her for any length of time without some alcohol in my system was hard to tolerate, mostly just because of the huge difference in life experience and maturity. The fucking was good though, while it lasted.

For relationship material, during my civy dating I sort of decided that 30 is a good target for minimum age for a partner. Luckily I'm a fan of the exotic brunette (Asian / Latina) and a lot of that demographic still look like 20 year olds when they are thirtyish. I met only a few who were late 20's and still mature enough for a relationship. I even prefer that they've been married before (hopefully no kids) because then they aren't in a rush or having delusions about what married life is like.

So, maybe in some ways a true SB is one of those "be careful what you wish for" things. UTR girls are less hassle, and generally get out of your hair and move on when the party is over.

I have ran upon a 28 year old single mom in Roanoke Va and need some advice. She is staying in a motel with her 2 children and needs financial help. She's telling me she has no money and has to check out today. But then comes back and states she needs $300 by Wednesday. I was going to meet her yesterday for lunch but I was sick and could not make it. She wanted a $100 bucks just to meet and I got her down to $75. Does this sound like a scam? Any advice is much appreciated.

[QUOTE=MuffDiver72;2144557]I have ran upon a 28 year old single mom in Roanoke Va and need some advice. She is staying in a motel with her 2 children and needs financial help. She's telling me she has no money and has to check out today. But then comes back and states she needs $300 by Wednesday. I was going to meet her yesterday for lunch but I was sick and could not make it. She wanted a $100 bucks just to meet and I got her down to $75. Does this sound like a scam? Any advice is much appreciated.[/QUOTE]This ploy is called the "panic" and is a classic Nando 1 move. Unfortunately these girls are desperate and the facts are that dshe probably has all kinds of debt and is getting evicted, etc. Remember do not fall for this sob story, it is not your responsibility to bail her out of her problems.

What you do is the following: 1) offer her $ ,whatever your number is for a FC visit. 2) tell her when you are available and where ,3) stick to your guns. Do not let her appeal to your sensitivity about her plight. 4) do not pay her to meet. Tell her that you will apply that money to her allowance only after she produces on her end. 5) Run and do not play with Nando 1 s.

[QUOTE=MuffDiver72;2144557]I have ran upon a 28 year old single mom in Roanoke Va and need some advice. She is staying in a motel with her 2 children and needs financial help. She's telling me she has no money and has to check out today. But then comes back and states she needs $300 by Wednesday. I was going to meet her yesterday for lunch but I was sick and could not make it. She wanted a $100 bucks just to meet and I got her down to $75. Does this sound like a scam? Any advice is much appreciated.[/QUOTE]Paying just to meet is always a scam. Always pay at the end of service and commensurate with how satisfied you are. Tell her you can get conversation for free anywhere but the pussy has value and you're willing to pay for it (just not always in quite such direct terms).

[QUOTE=MuffDiver72;2144557]I have ran upon a 28 year old single mom in Roanoke Va and need some advice. She is staying in a motel with her 2 children and needs financial help. She's telling me she has no money and has to check out today. But then comes back and states she needs $300 by Wednesday. I was going to meet her yesterday for lunch but I was sick and could not make it. She wanted a $100 bucks just to meet and I got her down to $75. Does this sound like a scam? Any advice is much appreciated.[/QUOTE]When I was first starting out in the sugar bowl and I was still naive about meeting POTs, I would pay to meet. I don't do that any more. I will treat them to whatever it is we do on the M&G (dinner, drinks, coffee, whatever) and if they travel a fair distance to see me I will even offer to give them gas money. But I have stopped giving a POT money just to meet with me. I know some brothers have occasionally given a gift card or something as a token of appreciation on a M&G and I think in some cases that can be a good idea, especially if the arrangement is all but a sure thing following a M&G. But beware of POTs saying they are all for an arrangement following a M&G, then vanishing like they were a super ninja. I myself had that happen a handful of times in the span of a few months. So then you've wasted your time and your money on someone you'll never see again.

In your particular case, she's a definite Nando1, as others have noted. Drop her and move on, this one will very likely take your money and run.

I don't know if you guys have seen the website [URL]thedirty.com[/URL], but it makes a very good case for never letting your SBs know your last name, and being careful about who you give photos to.

There are other similar revenge websites but this one I had not come across this one before until I googled someone's name and an article about her on this site was at the top of the list. LOL. It's quite funny to look read the submissions in your local city (click on dirty world at the top). Be entertained by it but be careful not to end up being one of the sources of entertainment.

Always stay as anonymous as possible, and in the event of a dispute / SB gone sideways, try to diffuse the situation, take the high road and then get the hell out of there, trying to exit on a positive note.

[QUOTE=DirtyDeeds38;2143794]The SB in question, without doubt has / had true feelings. Problem is her age being so young, she still has not maneuvered through cycles of what it takes to make a man feel secure with her. She likes to party, go out with friends, flirt and all that comes with being a typical 21 yo girl. However, she also wants true love, stability and all that comes with that. I know her feelings are genuine, but so is her age and what she is not ready to overcome. I met her entire family for Pete's sake. Even her dad who is not the nicest of characters. Somehow they all approved of me. She is from a small town in rural Western Virginia and has not seen much outside her small town. Judging her at a raw level, she is sweet natured, loving, and naive. She claims to have had 9 sexual partners her entire life. Six boyfriends and three SD's date type things including me. So yeah, she slept with two other men for $. So having been around this hobby and other related hobbies for a bit, once a girl gets a taste for quick easy money like that, it's all but impossible for her to shake it, until she is put through the ringer of reality and usually used up by then.

Bottom line, she is not relationship material, mostly due to her age. So I'm dumping her ass and going back to regular Sugar bowl experiences. Life is short, I want more experiences before the ole general will no longer rise to the occasion. Funny thing is, once you've been with a 21 year old girl for a while in the real relationship type scenario, the novelty wears off and her being so young and pretty fades. She just becomes another woman to you. Sometimes I am mesmerized by her face and youthful beauty. She is a pretty girl, but her lying, immature ways, are not something I even remotely care to deal with in my mid-40's.

So back in the bowl I go. Hopefully the fallout with her with no go nuclear. .[/QUOTE]Naive?. LOL.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;2144852]Paying just to meet is always a scam. Always pay at the end of service and commensurate with how satisfied you are. Tell her you can get conversation for free anywhere but the pussy has value and you're willing to pay for it (just not always in quite such direct terms).[/QUOTE]I just had an average MILF say I could meet her for a $$ dinner, LOL. For $$ I can get 80% of 9+ non white girls and half of the 7+ white ones. I swear I can get 10 18-22 young hotties for a $ before I can get an average MILF. Must be L. A. The cost of living here is high.

Also never ever meet any girl that hasnt sent you a clear, standing straight (not bent forward) pic. No matter how pretty they look.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;2145099]I don't know if you guys have seen the website [URL]thedirty.com[/URL], but it makes a very good case for never letting your SBs know your last name, and being careful about who you give photos to.

There are other similar revenge websites but this one I had not come across this one before until I googled someone's name and an article about her on this site was at the top of the list. LOL. It's quite funny to look read the submissions in your local city (click on dirty world at the top). Be entertained by it but be careful not to end up being one of the sources of entertainment.

Always stay as anonymous as possible, and in the event of a dispute / SB gone sideways, try to diffuse the situation, take the high road and then get the hell out of there, trying to exit on a positive note.[/QUOTE]A very nice stripper I know had some dirt put up there about her just because her x found out she slept around and did a couple of pornos. Thank god I am not married and my job is so underground even the people I work with have never met me.

[QUOTE=HollywoodGuy;2145391]I just had an average MILF say I could meet her for a $$ dinner, LOL. For $$ I can get 80% of 9+ non white girls and half of the 7+ white ones. I swear I can get 10 18-22 young hotties for a $ before I can get an average MILF. Must be L. A. The cost of living here is high.

Also never ever meet any girl that hasnt sent you a clear, standing straight (not bent forward) pic. No matter how pretty they look.[/QUOTE]I usually try to get several pics. If her profile photo doesn't give me enough info, I will ask for more. Once you have several you can look for any weird patterns, like all of the photos are from one angle or none of them show her butt, etc. I've been fortunate that none of my SB M&Gs have been disappointing -- in fact I think all of them turned out as good or better than pics (mostly better). But, I learned a lot about what to look for in pic swapping when civy dating. One thing for sure, if she only sends selfies she took in a car, definitely demand to see more because she could have a decent face yet be a moose from the waist down.

[QUOTE=HollywoodGuy;2145397]A very nice stripper I know had some dirt put up there about her just because her x found out she slept around and did a couple of pornos. Thank god I am not married and my job is so underground even the people I work with have never met me.[/QUOTE]My work is fairly isolated from any real damage from something like that, but if searching on my name ever turned up a revenge page like that, I'd still do whatever was in my power to get it down even if I didn't have an SO, first and foremost just because I'm private in that way and would not be able to take something like that sitting down. Plus, I may not be in my current job forever and I don't like career options being potentially hindered by something like that. Also don't like the idea that friends and family could see that aspect of my personal life -- some young bimbo talking shit about me online.

[QUOTE=MuffDiver72;2144557]I have ran upon a 28 year old single mom in Roanoke Va and need some advice. She is staying in a motel with her 2 children and needs financial help. She's telling me she has no money and has to check out today. But then comes back and states she needs $300 by Wednesday. I was going to meet her yesterday for lunch but I was sick and could not make it. She wanted a $100 bucks just to meet and I got her down to $75. Does this sound like a scam? Any advice is much appreciated.[/QUOTE]Welcome to the forum. This is a great forum to sharpen up on your SB skills. We were all new to this at one time and have learned a few things the hard way. I NEVER pay them for a M&G. I will pay the date expenses, as in dinner or what ever, but not extra to sit and talk. I can stay home with the wife for that. Under no circumstances does anyone get anything until we go to the FC. And, they get nothing until we are done. More than once I have started to get dressed again when they demand to be paid up front. That is an Escort rule, not a SB rule. And since I am paying them, I play by MY rule. Funny how when they realize you are ready to end it how they change their mind.

As has been advised, run from this one. She will only drain your funds and leave you disappointed. There are much better finds out there for you.

[QUOTE=Walruscl;2143176]As at least one other person has pointed out, clearing $$ per night for service jobs is pretty much the exception, not the rule. Keeping in mind the limitations of anecdotal evidence, my SB basically clears about a little over half a $ per day. That's after a couple of years in one of the more labor-friendly food chains. As low-paying as it is, she considers herself lucky to have the job, as most of the alternatives in the service / unskilled labor market pay less.

This isn't a big city area, but it's only about 90 minutes to the nearest one, and the cost of living here isn't outrageous but nor is it cheap. She's going to school, with zero assistance from her parents, and there's no way she could pull that off on just her regular job.

We started out at $$/ visit, but have since moved on to a less rigid arrangement. Earning about 3 x of a day at her regular job in exchange for 4-6 hours of naked fun is a good deal. Even if she weren't smitten with me and having the best sex of her life, those financials are quite compelling.[/QUOTE]Thanks for the input.

I do live in a large metro area in the Midwest. I remember 20 years ago my girlfriend worked for a popular restaurant, and she leave work with 150-200 dollars on Thursday, Friday, Saturday. Now granted that 200 dollars went a long way back then when 1 bedroom rents with $700 dollar range and no one had cell phone.

Was drinking beer with a few golf cart girls last month as they finished their shift, and one of them mentioned about $180 dollar day!

I am sure that I am completely out of touch these days with the trials and tribulations of 20 year olds. But if they are in college they usually get assistance from their parents and loans, is they supplement that with a part time job clearing $300 a week they can easily have party money.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;2145099]I don't know if you guys have seen the website [URL]thedirty.com[/URL], but it makes a very good case for never letting your SBs know your last name, and being careful about who you give photos to.

There are other similar revenge websites but this one I had not come across this one before until I googled someone's name and an article about her on this site was at the top of the list. LOL. It's quite funny to look read the submissions in your local city (click on dirty world at the top). Be entertained by it but be careful not to end up being one of the sources of entertainment.

Always stay as anonymous as possible, and in the event of a dispute / SB gone sideways, try to diffuse the situation, take the high road and then get the hell out of there, trying to exit on a positive note.[/QUOTE]I actually just stumbled across that website the other day. Haven't had the time to browse it too much, but I did run across a few gals that I had heard of from the Charlotte area. Its a bit scary to think of all the damage someone could do to an individual simply because they got their panties in a wad over something.

[QUOTE=Latex;2145835]Thanks for the input.

I do live in a large metro area in the Midwest. I remember 20 years ago my girlfriend worked for a popular restaurant, and she leave work with 150-200 dollars on Thursday, Friday, Saturday. Now granted that 200 dollars went a long way back then when 1 bedroom rents with $700 dollar range and no one had cell phone.

Was drinking beer with a few golf cart girls last month as they finished their shift, and one of them mentioned about $180 dollar day!

I am sure that I am completely out of touch these days with the trials and tribulations of 20 year olds. But if they are in college they usually get assistance from their parents and loans, is they supplement that with a part time job clearing $300 a week they can easily have party money.[/QUOTE]Sure the girls want to maximize their ROI, but here is a little rationale. What makes more sense? $150 / night slinging drinks for 8 hours vs Lying on her back (or whatever) with a sex machine pounding her for an hour bringing her to multiple Os? No contest. Also, they frequently get treated to a nice dinner and drinks and get to squire a rich stud around in front of their buds. They get the $$ ,sexual satisfaction, and an ego boost without breaking a sweat. Well, maybe some sweating involved.

[QUOTE=DirtyDingus;2145994]I actually just stumbled across that website the other day. Haven't had the time to browse it too much, but I did run across a few gals that I had heard of from the Charlotte area. Its a bit scary to think of all the damage someone could do to an individual simply because they got their panties in a wad over something.[/QUOTE]Yeah, I think if the "victim" reports it to the admin of dirty.com they will take it down unless the author can prove it's true, but in theory once something is on the net, it can be archived and searchable forever. This past season one of my SBs said that they talk among themselves and "review" their SDs but she wouldn't say where. I did see on Nightline or one of those shows a story about a site that is strictly for females to bag on guys (forgot the site name) but it wasn't geared toward SDs, it was more designed to warn girls about serial daters and pricks from Facebook etc. But this aspect of our hobby does bother me.

[QUOTE=Latex;2145835]Thanks for the input.

Was drinking beer with a few golf cart girls last month as they finished their shift, and one of them mentioned about $180 dollar day!

I am sure that I am completely out of touch these days with the trials and tribulations of 20 year olds. But if they are in college they usually get assistance from their parents and loans, is they supplement that with a part time job clearing $300 a week they can easily have party money.[/QUOTE]Sounds like my ex wife. She worked with other doctors, socialized at the country club and could not understand why a lot of people had a problem paying their hospital bills. My line of work gives me access to the day to day finances of a broad range of people, and your average 20 year old does not have many good paying jobs in the service industry available to them.

Yes, some, not all, of the women working the beer carts at the high end clubs near the beach are making a buck fifty a day "in season". But I have worked with hot looking chicks working lessor clubs that make 0 nly 50 a day in tips and that is only for 4-5 months a year. The bartenders at the local Bonefish Grill make 70 k a year, the hostess makes minimum wage, and the good waitresses are making just enough to afford a studio apartment if they scrimp. The bartender at my favorite local whole had to get a 2nd job because she only made 30 a year because the old guys are stingy tippers. For every 40 jobs at a busy high end restaurant their are 400 at Dennys, selling dresses at the surf shop, slinging coffee at starbucks, and those girls are VERY happy with an extra 100 tax free a week. All of my babes work a real job.

God Bless capitalism. It gives us a land of opportunity.

So my 5th of July special surprised me. She had been complaining for weeks about her husband pestering her for anal sex and she kept telling him no because it hurt. Guess who whips out the lube and says she wants my cum in her a#.

[QUOTE=FeelGoodMd;2140169]I just had this text conversation with an 18 year old, tall, white, sultry Pot I met through SA....

This morning, she texts back to say... she still wanted to get together today. We agree on a meeting place. Then the convo goes off the rails:

Pot: How much should I expect in return?

Me: I don't want to discuss that in advance. It seems so. Transactional.

Me: It's safe to assume I'll give you more after spending a couple hours together in private than I did after having coffee.

Pot: Well, my last arrangement we would do whatever we were both comfortable with for 500/ h. Anything more that he wants he pays significantly more for.

Me: That's not going to work for me. I'm sorry. My gift is typically (depending on how well the visit goes.

Pot: Those are literal hooker rates.

Me: (name). Sugar babies don't have "rates. " A sugar baby accept gifts from their Daddy....

Pot: I've come to expect gifts as very very generous.

Me: I hope you will take a serious look at whether you want to be a Sugar Baby or an escort. What you're doing right now sounds a lot more like the latter.

That was that. No reply from her after that (shockingly)....

Fortunately, I started seeing a new SB last week (on her 20th birthday) who is almost a carbon copy of that Pot (a little shorter, a couple years older, and light-skinned AA), and I texted her after that exchange and said I had a cancellation in my schedule and I am available this afternoon. She immediately replied with "when and where. " Last week she never asked about money in advance, was genuinely enthusiastic about the sex, seemed disappointed when she had to leave after 3 hours to get to a birthday party her sorority was throwing for her, and texted me multiple thank you's when she discovered how much I had given her ($ in an outside pocket of her purse, and. 5 in a be'day card so she knew they were "separate" gifts). Her only complaint, if you could call it that, was that I was too gentle and she wanted me to leave "marks" next time. Later that night she texted a picture of my card sitting in a prominent place on her dorm room desk (thankfully I have generic handwriting and I didn't sign it. Even with the fake name I gave her).

I have a feeling I am going to enjoy today much better with my new SB than I would have with that Pot.[/QUOTE]I'm happy to say I did have a FANTASTIC time with my new sorority girl SB last week, who likes to take it as rough as I like to give it out. We spent three hours together, and texted / emailed back and forth throughout the long weekend. We're planning to meet again at the end of the is week before she goes out of town.

The real follow-up, however, is a text I got this morning from the 18 year old who wanted $$ / hour. The conversation started like this (after not hearing from her for 6 days):

Pot: Sorry if we got off on the wrong foot. I would like a mutually beneficial relationship with you.

Me: Thank you for the text, K* I hadn't expected to hear from you again. I'd like the same thing.

Me: Can you accept the level of help I'm able to provide?

Pot: Yes. Would like to meet up again soon. Are you free today?

I had completely written her off, but now I'm going to be banging her in less than an hour and for only $. 5 Patience is the name of the sugar game.

[QUOTE=Latex;2145835]I am sure that I am completely out of touch these days with the trials and tribulations of 20 year olds. But if they are in college they usually get assistance from their parents and loans, is they supplement that with a part time job clearing $300 a week they can easily have party money.[/QUOTE]Yeah, well this adventure has been eye-opening for me as well. I really didn't appreciate just how hard it is to pull yourself out of poverty, even when you're doing all the right things. Her finances suck, and it's mostly her circumstances to blame. Which is why she's desperately trying to figure out how to put herself through college.

The scenario you describe is certainly a common demographic, but the key there is financial support from home. She has none, and that changes everything.

Like many here, I started all this spending my hard earned money with escorts many years ago. I was a sales rep that traveled the east coast and spent 1/2 my time on the road. Using escorts seemed at the time to be the easiest way to take care of my needs. Approximately 10 years ago, I sat back and took stock of what I was doing and how I was doing it. I realized I had spent a small fortune on many hot women (some not so hot as it turned out) one hour at a time. I just knew there was a better way. And with that I found Craigslist. At the time, it was like shooting fish in a barrel. You put up one ad and you would get 10 or more viable replies. Well, those days are gone for good. But anyway, to get to my point, what I realized after a while was I was using an escort approach to talk to a utr / sb. It took some time, but I got myself the skill set to interview them for the position, not the other way around. To all the newbies, you would be extremely surprised at how many of theses utr / sb's will accept 100 or 150 if that is what you are offering them. They all want 500 if they can get it. We have to be steadfast and not let them manipulate us.

I just got home from a M&G with a POT from SA. Cute 23 why / o redhead that lives in the next town over. Her profile said "moderate" on the donation. I have learned to take the chance and talk face to face with them anyway. So we get to the part of the conversation where the arrangement comes up. I told her that the last arrangement I had, which recently ended, I gave her 150 per visit, which would last 3 - 4 hours. She looked at me and then said "Ok, that works". Now, this is a girl who works part time at a deli 3 days per week. She has her own place so I don't need to spring for a SS. I look at that and say to myself that it's like I got her for 100 but I have to get a SS. So, tomorrow evening I will be at her apartment (the FC, I love that term) for what I think is a very reasonable donation. As stated below, many of these girls are in a financial bind. If they can actually think a little, this kind of money goes a long way for them. Yes, I too have had some turn me down. When they do, I remind them that my offer is better than sitting the next few months holding out for the higher donation. Most do not agree with me, but they are still on SA looking for a Daddy a year later. Their loss.

Also, talking with many of them, I find that there are a lot of guys who start off talking to them like they are shit. A young SB will think you are charming if you just be nice to them. Most guys their age cannot do that because they are self centered still. These girls are just craving to be treated special.

I hope this helps some of the newer guys. Be safe, and Happy Hobbying!

My preference is for a 22-23 year old hard body who is past the flighty stage but still as fresh as a woman gets; however in theory their seems to be a lot to recommend the 30 something. Supposedly they are at their sexual peak, you would think they are a little more reliable, maybe you can carry on a little deeper conversation, and some reports on here have attributed a little more financial stability to this breed, making them less likely to be GPS. With all that in mind I periodically cast a line at a 30 something that catches my eye. I am astounded by my lack of success. Two cases in point this week. I mentioned a M&G with a tattooed, biker mag cover quality MILF that I had lined up. We met for dinner and sat for 3 hours, laughed, had drinks, and really hit it off on a number of topics. She was a great kisser. Downside, the pics on her profile were obviously old-she is still beautiful, but about 15 pounds past her pics. I was willing to look past that, and we set a FC date for after the holiday weekend. A couple of days before, she brings up the subject of allowance. She had previously told me she was just looking for "a little help here and there". When we got into the details she informed me that her last SD used to give her "500 per visit-sometimes 1000". I told her that I was not in that ballpark, that I would be more comfortable with 2-3 per week, with at least two visits. Needless to say we wished each other well and I moved on. The second candidate was 31, recently divorced, with a good job, supposedly just looking for a no-strings relationship, brand new to the SB concept. Her pictures looked good, and she lived relatively close to me, so I quickly set up a M & G. When I arrived, I met a woman probably 30 lbs heavier than the one in the pics. We sat and chatted for a while, and she was pleasant to talk to. When I asked about her experiences on SA so far, she became a bit indignant about men offering her money for sex. She indicated that intimacy was on the table for someone after she "got to know them" but that "she was not a prostitute" and would never consider a paid arrangement. What are these "older and smarter" women thinking? From here on out I think I'll stick to the 20 something's.

The conventional wisdom in the thread is that dancers don't make good SB's (with maybe HG's girl as the exception). Too emotionally detached, used to manipulating guys for money, high likelihood of GPS. In the past couple of weeks I have been on a run of girls I met on SA who are or used to be dancers, The first was the tattoed 30 something in the prior post who bore out the GPS stereotype. The other two have turned out to be great finds. SB#2 for me is 25, used to be a dancer, works at a call center now and is a new single mom. I posted previously that we had a FC visit scheduled for last week with an agreement of $ per visit. I picked her up, took her to dinner, then brought her back to my place. She has an absolute smoking hard body, and was as hungry as I when we finally got BCD. Her looks are somewhat plain besides the body, and she is a bit self conscious. She is very attentive, good communications, is genuinely seeking my approval when she is with me and has already taken down her profile. Her only drawback is that her other responsibilities limit her availability to see me, so we are on a once a week. SB#3 is a dancer now and if she proves reliable will be my ATF. She is 25, very petite, and a self admitted dork. If I had met her somewhere else I never would have picked up the stripper vibe. We had texted a lot for a few days and finally set a time to meet. I picked her up and suggested a nice local restaurant. She countered with "not really hungry, why don't we go to your house, have a drink, and take a swim?" I asked if she had her swimsuit and she looked me in the eye and said she had forgotten it, so she would have to do without. Who am I to argue? We got back to my house and had a great conversation, including discussion of sugar, where I suggested $$ per week. She thought that was fair and said she wanted to meet three times or more per week. After a bit we moved first to the pool, where I helped her out of her tight jeans and into the warm water. Soon we were kissing and I was standing in the pool holding her with her legs wrapped around me. Before long we had to take it inside, where I had one of the best experiences that I have had in years. After I took her home she texted that she had had an amazing time and couldn't wait until Thursday for our next date. We agreed to at least try and get dinner next time!

Both of the latter girls have a couple of things in common. They both had absent fathers from a young age, so the older man element is obviously there. They both also seem very eager for approval / validation. Simply by being nice to them and complimenting them on basic things seems to make them bloom. I am looking forward to keeping them both around as long as I can, hopefully none of the stripper problem signs will show up!

I have on more M&G in the works for this week with a 25 year old who I also think might be a dancer. Her profile lists her occupation as "independent contractor". I hope that means dancer, and not escort! I can't wait to see which mold she will fit.

Life is good for me right now, I am going to enjoy it and save some memories for the lean times that are sure to come at some point.

[QUOTE=Dsprdo;2147331]My preference is for a 22-23 year old hard body who is past the flighty stage but still as fresh as a woman gets; however in theory their seems to be a lot to recommend the 30 something. Supposedly they are at their sexual peak, you would think they are a little more reliable, maybe you can carry on a little deeper conversation, and some reports on here have attributed a little more financial stability to this breed, making them less likely to be GPS. With all that in mind I periodically cast a line at a 30 something that catches my eye. I am astounded by my lack of success. Two cases in point this week. I mentioned a M&G with a tattooed, biker mag cover quality MILF that I had lined up. We met for dinner and sat for 3 hours, laughed, had drinks, and really hit it off on a number of topics. She was a great kisser. Downside, the pics on her profile were obviously old-she is still beautiful, but about 15 pounds past her pics. I was willing to look past that, and we set a FC date for after the holiday weekend. A couple of days before, she brings up the subject of allowance. She had previously told me she was just looking for "a little help here and there". When we got into the details she informed me that her last SD used to give her "500 per visit-sometimes 1000". I told her that I was not in that ballpark, that I would be more comfortable with 2-3 per week, with at least two visits. Needless to say we wished each other well and I moved on. The second candidate was 31, recently divorced, with a good job, supposedly just looking for a no-strings relationship, brand new to the SB concept. Her pictures looked good, and she lived relatively close to me, so I quickly set up a M & G. When I arrived, I met a woman probably 30 lbs heavier than the one in the pics. We sat and chatted for a while, and she was pleasant to talk to. When I asked about her experiences on SA so far, she became a bit indignant about men offering her money for sex. She indicated that intimacy was on the table for someone after she "got to know them" but that "she was not a prostitute" and would never consider a paid arrangement. What are these "older and smarter" women thinking? From here on out I think I'll stick to the 20 something's.[/QUOTE]I have found more success by not initiating the discussion of money. Try asking them what they are looking for. Sometimes they are a bit vague, not really saying they expect to be paid. "Maybe I can help you with a bill or two" is a line that works for me in opening that discussion. Seems to me that age doesn't really come into play so much with the feeling some have that if they get paid per date they are a working girl. Ultimately, they are whether it is a pay per date or monthly allowance, but some of them do not see it that way. Personally, I will never figure them out.

[QUOTE=FeelGoodMd;2146191]

Pot: Yes. Would like to meet up again soon. [b]Are you free today?[/b]

I had completely written her off, but now I'm going to be banging her in less than an hour and for only $. 5 Patience is the name of the sugar game.[/QUOTE]In my previous "Lost and Found" updates, I experienced a similar thing and one of the key factors was meeting up that "same day". Sometimes you can catch these girls in a moment of desperation / frustration and they'll be willing to meet for a lower amount as long as you're able to act quickly.

Long-term retention may still be an issue, but if you can quickly meetup and put some money in their pocket without any drama, then you might be able to pass Go quite a few times.

It's also why even though a Pot may piss me off by wasting my time, I always leave a key under the mat. It could be 2, 3, or 6 months later but you never know when they might popup out of nowhere asking to give them another chance. At the very least, you might get a good one-night stand out of it. I've had some great experiences that were just one and two-fers that were well worth not burning the bridge.

In the Sugar Bowl, often times nice guys (with cash) ultimately finish first in the end.