Ripoff Reports

[QUOTE=Jinurso;5581659]Paying after is something I've never heard or seen in my life until I saw people mention it here. I'm not saying it's not real, but maybe is varies based on how you met the girl.

I can 100% tell you that mid-range and higher girls ($300+ hr) have a very specific routine and will have no problem telling you to leave if you don't follow it. You come in, go to the bathroom, shower, leave the money in the bathroom, she goes in, cleans up and grabs the money. Or you leave it to the nightstand and go to the bathroom. Something like that.

Lower end girls? Who knows. I guess it's possible but not worth the risk of things escalating. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been ripped off.

Spas sometimes function that way. At CLM I've paid the fee upfront but in the flow of things we'll start doing stuff and we don't settle up until after. That's the closest I've ever come to "pay after".[/QUOTE]Agree. The most common scenario with me is I leave the envelope someplace conspicuous and then go wash up. A handful of times the girl asked me for the money right away, but that's less common and usually only happens with the lower priced ones. The mid to upper range ones usually seems to be the first scenario. I don't like talking about money, so I don't often revisit the ones who ask for it up front.

Some guys are just scumbags who like to pull a dine and dash, so that's how they wind up not trusting us. I'd be paranoid too.

I've never been ripped off, but I really do my homework.

Just to be clear;.

I've always paid the full price for an escort's services when the session is over. Never have I "Dined and' Dashed" on an escort. That would be a terrible thing to do. I pay afterwards to prevent from getting ripped off. It's always good to have some sort of control and leverage when dealing with these girls. High class or otherwise.

[QUOTE=Jinurso;5581659]Paying after is something I've never heard or seen in my life until I saw people mention it here. I'm not saying it's not real, but maybe is varies based on how you met the girl.

I can 100% tell you that mid-range and higher girls ($300+ hr) have a very specific routine and will have no problem telling you to leave if you don't follow it. You come in, go to the bathroom, shower, leave the money in the bathroom, she goes in, cleans up and grabs the money. Or you leave it to the nightstand and go to the bathroom. Something like that.

Lower end girls? Who knows. I guess it's possible but not worth the risk of things escalating. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been ripped off.

Spas sometimes function that way. At CLM I've paid the fee upfront but in the flow of things we'll start doing stuff and we don't settle up until after. That's the closest I've ever come to "pay after".[/QUOTE]I guess that's part of the difference between agency and independent.

Agency girls have been nice in the past to me where we have chemistry in both talk and play, and have "gone right to it" on subsequent visits, and I pay before I leave; once, both the girl and I forgot I paid and it wasnt until I was heading to my car I remembered and went back to pay (I don't want to ruin those "relationships".

Only once has this happened with an independent because I was a regular and again had good chemistry, we got going right away and I paid before leaving.

[QUOTE=DrPepper2976;5581921]I guess that's part of the difference between agency and independent.

Agency girls have been nice in the past to me where we have chemistry in both talk and play, and have "gone right to it" on subsequent visits, and I pay before I leave; once, both the girl and I forgot I paid and it wasnt until I was heading to my car I remembered and went back to pay (I don't want to ruin those "relationships".

Only once has this happened with an independent because I was a regular and again had good chemistry, we got going right away and I paid before leaving.[/QUOTE]Ill bet that a decent percentage of guys have forgot to pay upfront with girls they have seen before and have good comfort levels with and I would put myself in that group but that is due to trust, comfort and forgetfulness with both parties, The people advocating paying at the end here have no trust in the providers without the leverage of payment after services are rendered. Just about exact opposites.

Besides posting about girls that are a rip off, it would stand to reason to post ways to prevent getting ripped off. Not paying upfront and you not paying for a room until she arrives at the agreed upon location.

I'll bet if all of us paid after instead of upfront 90% of the rip offs wouldn't happen. IMO.

You don't have trust at the very first meeting. Through repeat visits trust is built up. How many visits it takes before trust is established depends on her and your comfort level. Even with trust you still have to keep your guard up. I still and always will pay afterwards.

I will chime in with my experience as well. I will go with the consensus here that any girls you see through EB or STG (and obviously higher end as well though my experience there is limited) you will have a worse time or more than likely will be asked to leave if you refuse to pay until after the session. I'm sure some girls might put up with that but I would imagine it would be the minority of girls so you would spend way too much time setting up a date then going to see some girl then leaving immediately since you didn't want to pay until after. So IMO that is a pretty awful strategy to avoid ripoffs. Once you have seen enough ads over the years you can do a pretty good job of filtering legit from not and avoid all out ripoffs for the most part. I want to add that lackluster services are much more common than outright stealing and is a much bigger problem when seeing new girls, but that's another discussion.

On the other hand when it comes to SWers, in that scenario it is pretty much essential you pay after or you are inviting a ripoff of some sort, but again that is another story than this discussion. One last bit of info to add about ripoffs from my experience, I have had hundreds of dates over the past 5 years or so and I believe I have been actually stolen from 3 times. Two of those happened where the girl asked me to meet her outside (both at lower end motels) then we went up to the room and some pimp comes in almost immediately with some story that sees you out with no service or money. So anytime a girl asks to meet outside I am a little weary because of this, I'm guessing the plan is / was to have the pimp (s) get a look at you before they decide to rob you. That being said I have had dates where they met outside and it was fine, but its very rare for a girl to do this and if they do, be extra cautious is my advice.

[QUOTE=Moejoo;5582315]Ill bet that a decent percentage of guys have forgot to pay upfront with girls they have seen before and have good comfort levels with and I would put myself in that group but that is due to trust, comfort and forgetfulness with both parties, The people advocating paying at the end here have no trust in the providers without the leverage of payment after services are rendered. Just about exact opposites.[/QUOTE]That's definitely happened to me with some regulars. We eventually stopped even discussing money or time and just got into it. Most of the time I remembered to leave the money there. Sometimes she didn't see where I put it and asked me later, but sometimes I would forget, but always made good so there was never a problem.

But again, that's not the same as "never pay anybody upfront ever". I can't imagine any of the hundreds of girls I've seen would have been ok with that. Certainly none of the dozens of girls I've reviewed on this site.

I was curious to see the review history of the people advocating for this "don't pay upfront" philosophy, but strangely I couldn't find any reviews. Like. . .any reviews. Makes me wonder if it's more of a philosophical advocacy than an actual practice.

Maybe I'm not understanding the advantages of paying upfront. Can you pay upfront guys tell me?

1) You actually get to have sex with the provider!

2) You don't get kicked out of the room.

3) You don't get blacklisted as a time waster.

4) Not get mocked for horrible advice.

[QUOTE=RonM;5582991]Maybe I'm not understanding the advantages of paying upfront. Can you pay upfront guys tell me?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=RonM;5582991]Maybe I'm not understanding the advantages of paying upfront. Can you pay upfront guys tell me?[/QUOTE]In my years of the hobby, if a girl asks for it up front I will give it. Why? Because very rarely do I see a gal that hasn't been reviewed. Also, out of my years I can count on one hand getting screwed over. Straight up cash and dash with comical car chase. Two decided to change the agreed terms, one running out to a car. Most women are afraid of us mongers cashing and dashing, which honestly I believe happens way more than you think.

I get that you want to protect yourself from getting ripped off but you make the woman uneasy by doing that. Obviously, if you see a woman multiple times it usually isn't an issue. I would probably change my tune if it happened repeatedly but for me it's 99% success rate.

[QUOTE=RonM;5582991]Maybe I'm not understanding the advantages of paying upfront. Can you pay upfront guys tell me?[/QUOTE]It puts their mind at ease and takes money off the table as an issue immediately. They're not thinking about whether I am going to stiff them or if I brought enough. It gets it out of the way and we move on.

It's the default routine and what they all expect and what 99% of men who visit them are comfortable complying with.

I've never heard or seen a scenario where a known girl has deviated from that just because a guy was already there and tried to coerce her but I've heard plenty of stories where girls have refused service to a guy who refused to pay upfront and subsequently blacklisted him.

There may be girls around who are newer, lower end, or have varying states of desperation who are more flexible but it is not worth alienating a lot of well reviewed women to try that on. You do that to the wrong girl and you'll end up locked out of the legit market entirely and stuck with $60 qv women forever.

Most are valid points.

You lose your advantage by paying upfront. You guys have been lucky so far. I was a pay upfront proponent at the ground level in this game. But when I got ripped off paying upfront that experience changed my perspective in the game. I'm going to still pay after the session is over. If I miss out on a great time with a girl that wants payment upfront, then so be it. There are plenty enough girls in this game to see. Your money is the only leverage and advantage you have when dealing with these girls. Just be careful paying upfront.

I can't remember if I wrote this in my review of Julia / Jules in Rogers Park but I gave her the money right when I walked in. I knew she was legit (reviews were good, she's older, there's video of her on EB). She told me when I handed the money that she likes seeing 30+ guys so much more because they understand what's happening. She stopped seeing guys in their 20's because they're haggling over money, showing up drunk, and just generally acting like idiots. But she led with the money thing. But I haven't messed with street walkers. I can see why that would require a different approach.

[QUOTE=RonM;5583197]Most are valid points.

You lose your advantage by paying upfront. You guys have been lucky so far. I was a pay upfront proponent at the ground level in this game. But when I got ripped off paying upfront that experience changed my perspective in the game. I'm going to still pay after the session is over. If I miss out on a great time with a girl that wants payment upfront, then so be it. There are plenty enough girls in this game to see. Your money is the only leverage and advantage you have when dealing with these girls. Just be careful paying upfront.[/QUOTE]Who are some of your favorite providers in the area?

[QUOTE=RonM;5583197]Most are valid points.

You lose your advantage by paying upfront. You guys have been lucky so far. I was a pay upfront proponent at the ground level in this game. But when I got ripped off paying upfront that experience changed my perspective in the game. I'm going to still pay after the session is over. If I miss out on a great time with a girl that wants payment upfront, then so be it. There are plenty enough girls in this game to see. Your money is the only leverage and advantage you have when dealing with these girls. Just be careful paying upfront.[/QUOTE]I agree 100%. These women seem to think that since they own the pussy that they are in charge. I feel that by not paying upfront, we control the situation. If they don't like it, fine, I can go get pussy elsewhere. The problem fot the women is that most of them need your money for their next night's room fee and their next fix. Do not allow them to have the power!

[QUOTE=Jc2490;5584128]I agree 100%. These women seem to think that since they own the pussy that they are in charge. I feel that by not paying upfront, we control the situation. If they don't like it, fine, I can go get pussy elsewhere. The problem fot the women is that most of them need your money for their next night's room fee and their next fix. Do not allow them to have the power![/QUOTE]I'm a pay upfront kind of guy. Here's some examples of why I think that's the best approach:

These {Car dealerships} seem to think that since they own the {cars} that they are in charge. I feel that by not paying {the car dealership} upfront, we control the situation. If they don't like it, fine, I can go get {a car} elsewhere. The problem fot the {Car dealership} is that most of them need your money for their {rent and employee payroll}. Do not allow them to have the power.

I don't think many car dealerships are going to let you drive off in a car without cash down, and / or a contract. Those are the defined limits of the transaction. And the shady used car dealers that rip you off are going to go out of business reasonably quickly / and we have ways. Like YELP, (or TER or this board) of finding out about them. That's both "reasonable and customary".

Even if you substitute {restaurant} in the above you are going to end up paying, maybe a discounted rate, maybe not, unless you dine and dash. Maybe no tip, but everyone is going to work towards a mutually agreeable transaction within the defined limits of the reasonable and customary roles of the seller and the buyer relationship. Some things the restaurant just can't or won't do. But you don't get to order a Filet Mignon from McDonalds and not pay for the Big Mac you just ordered and was given to you.

There's a lot of strong language in this thread like "advantage," "leverage", "control" & "power" that seem like they go well beyond the reasonable and customary limits around mutual consent. It's not how I roll, but I understand we are all here for different reasons.

[QUOTE=Jc2490;5584128]I agree 100%. These women seem to think that since they own the pussy that they are in charge. I feel that by not paying upfront, we control the situation. If they don't like it, fine, I can go get pussy elsewhere. The problem fot the women is that most of them need your money for their next night's room fee and their next fix. Do not allow them to have the power![/QUOTE]Grand Slam, Touchdown, Slam Dunk!

Someone finally understands what I'm saying.

[QUOTE=IndigoWalk;5584702]I'm a pay upfront kind of guy. Here's some examples of why I think that's the best approach:

These {Car dealerships} seem to think that since they own the {cars} that they are in charge. I feel that by not paying {the car dealership} upfront, we control the situation. If they don't like it, fine, I can go get {a car} elsewhere. The problem fot the {Car dealership} is that most of them need your money for their {rent and employee payroll}. Do not allow them to have the power.

I don't think many car dealerships are going to let you drive off in a car without cash down, and / or a contract. Those are the defined limits of the transaction. And the shady used car dealers that rip you off are going to go out of business reasonably quickly / and we have ways. Like YELP, (or TER or this board) of finding out about them. That's both "reasonable and customary".

Even if you substitute {restaurant} in the above you are going to end up paying, maybe a discounted rate, maybe not, unless you dine and dash. Maybe no tip, but everyone is going to work towards a mutually agreeable transaction within the defined limits of the reasonable and customary roles of the seller and the buyer relationship. Some things the restaurant just can't or won't do. But you don't get to order a Filet Mignon from McDonalds and not pay for the Big Mac you just ordered and was given to you.

There's a lot of strong language in this thread like "advantage," "leverage", "control" & "power" that seem like they go well beyond the reasonable and customary limits around mutual consent. It's not how I roll, but I understand we are all here for different reasons.[/QUOTE]Do I get to take the provider for a "test drive" to see if she's right for me? For a sit down restaurant, we pay after the meal. That's what the pro pay-after crowd is saying. You don't pay for a steak in advance & out comes a shriveled, burned piece of meat. No one's saying not to pay. The issue is whether the chances of you getting what you paid for is better dependent on when you pay. And that works both ways for the provider too.

Since girls who accept pay at the end of a appointment seems to be the most closely guarded secret on the board then maybe there is another way to get names attached to this subject. I am sure that all of you guys with your secret harems of pay later girls must not bat 100 percent with your strategy then what is your batting percentage? Now since you aren't willing to give up the names of your fabulous secret harems how about naming the girls who would not go along with your plans so we can either seek them out or eliminate them from future consideration if we are seeking out our own secret harems of pay later girls. Some of you must have got tired of some of your pay later girls and dumped them in favor of new pay later girls, why can't you give their names up?

[QUOTE=Jc2490;5584128]I agree 100%. These women seem to think that since they own the pussy that they are in charge. I feel that by not paying upfront, we control the situation. If they don't like it, fine, I can go get pussy elsewhere. The problem fot the women is that most of them need your money for their next night's room fee and their next fix. Do not allow them to have the power![/QUOTE]Who are some of your favorite providers? And do they all accept payment after?

[QUOTE=IndigoWalk;5584702]
There's a lot of strong language in this thread like "advantage," "leverage", "control" & "power" that seem like they go well beyond the reasonable and customary limits around mutual consent. It's not how I roll, but I understand we are all here for different reasons.[/QUOTE]It's a good observation. I think there tend to be two ways prostitution is described:

1. As a hobby.

2. As a game.

People who tend to use the term "hobby" usually think of prostitution in positive terms. It's fun, adventurous, and a real passion. People who call it a hobby love the experience and often fondly describe time they spend with women.

People who tend to use the term "game" usually think of prostitution as a competition between themselves and the prostitute. For them it's about winning more so than enjoying the experience. This is where you see terms like "control" and "advantage". You go in like it's a battle of wits and the objective is to come out as the winner of the exchange.

I sometimes wonder if guys who describe prostitution in battle terms come away from each encounter feeling joy or if it's more relief. And if prostitution is more of a hobby or a habit for them.

That's also why I'm curious about the kinds of girls these guys see. If you're constantly pushing the outer edges of LC to find the absolute best deal you can, then yeah maybe you learn to always be on high alert because that's where most of the scammers are. That's not the area where I usually play but I could understand that point of view if that's where these guys like to be.

[QUOTE=Jc2490;5584128]I agree 100%. These women seem to think that since they own the pussy that they are in charge. I feel that by not paying upfront, we control the situation. If they don't like it, fine, I can go get pussy elsewhere. The problem fot the women is that most of them need your money for their next night's room fee and their next fix. Do not allow them to have the power![/QUOTE]Maybe this shows the kinds of girls who are willing to accept being payed afterwards, so where do you go to seek out these types of girls?.

I was thinking back to the times I was ripped off. And by ripped off I mean they made off with the money without providing any service. (I don't consider "I didn't like her BJ" to be a rip off and I would never withhold payment over that anyway. I just wouldn't tip and wouldn't see her again).

I might be missing a few but I can think of five times I've been ripped off ever. Out of about 400+ women I've seen that's almost a 99% success rate.

Among those five, I was thinking just now what would have happened if I refused to pay them until after and walked out (or tried to walk out).

Two of them yeah, it probably would have saved me money as I would have walked out and that would have been then end of that.

Of the other three, two were incalls and one was an outcall.

Both incalls were of the "possibly dangerous pimp right there" variety and I'm not at all confident that not paying would have been a better option than paying and getting ripped off. In situations like that, you're risking a lot if you end up in a confrontation with a pimp. Best case scenario you end up paying the money anyway to get out with no incident. Worst case scenario it becomes violent. Whether you win or lose, the consequences are worse than the money at stake.

The last one was an outcall. I opened the door and a TS came barging through demanding the money. I gave "her" the money because "she" was clearly unstable and running around the room looking for money. I tried pushing him out and he said "touch me and I will fucking scream" so I gave him money and he left. Again, a case where paying is cheaper than not paying.

If I stick with agencies or well reviewed independents and keep paying attention to the latest reviews and do my part to post reviews I don't face much risk.

As you know I'm a Payment Afterwards proponent.

Those in favor of Payment Upfront gave me insight of why this method is best. I'm in agreement with most points. But it's not enough to convince me to ever pay upfront. Especially reading about Jinurso's harrowing personal experiences. Thanks to those who had thoughtful insights on this issue.

[QUOTE=Jinurso;5584915]Who are some of your favorite providers? And do they all accept payment after?[/QUOTE]If you don't want to give provider names that allow pay after. Can you tell us the name of the place that you found them? AMP, Agency or web site?

A few years back I too got ripped off a few times. I decided to try the "Pay after Play" and it didn't work for me. I didn't want to waste my time so instead of asking them when I arrived. I asked them via text after the amount was agreed upon if they would do " Pay After Play ". I tried this with 30 to 40 different providers mostly from sites like EB, STGs etc. The replies that I received back were 100% NO! I then tried to ask if they would do half upfront and half after. Again 100 % NO! When they replied back with NO. I explained to them that I asked because I had been ripped of in the past. The few replies I received from them were all " I have too " that's why I won't do it.

Am I missing something? Is there a certain tactic you use to get them to agree to Pay after Play besides walk out if they won't?

[QUOTE=Jinurso;5584915]Who are some of your favorite providers? And do they all accept payment after?[/QUOTE]I would also like to know, Ron. Who are you seeing who has always accepted payment at the end of the date?

[QUOTE=Jinurso;5584944]It's a good observation. I think there tend to be two ways prostitution is described:

1. As a hobby.

2. As a game.

People who tend to use the term "hobby" usually think of prostitution in positive terms. It's fun, adventurous, and a real passion. People who call it a hobby love the experience and often fondly describe time they spend with women.

People who tend to use the term "game" usually think of prostitution as a competition between themselves and the prostitute. For them it's about winning more so than enjoying the experience. This is where you see terms like "control" and "advantage". You go in like it's a battle of wits and the objective is to come out as the winner of the exchange.

I sometimes wonder if guys who describe prostitution in battle terms come away from each encounter feeling joy or if it's more relief. And if prostitution is more of a hobby or a habit for them..[/QUOTE]Great observation, the last words in my mind when seeing girls are words like power, leverage, control, advantage and game. I have no interest in girls who are focused on those things. I'd still like to hear these guys name who has gone along with their wishes and who hasn't. For the sake of argument I can get that guys might be selfish or embarrassed by the girls they see but what possible explanation could there be to not mention names of girls who have turned them down?

Perhaps claiming this tactic makes them feel powerful on this board and they don't even see any girls, they just rub one out after posting their fantasies here. There are lots more different kinks and fetishes than anyone can imagine Maybe in the pursuit of separating fantasies from real experiences these guys might preface their posts that they are talking about fantasies that they have, maybe even give them a sub forum where they can say whatever they want and not be questioned and will be supported for their vivid imaginations.

[QUOTE=MrWhite627;5585618]If you don't want to give provider names that allow pay after. Can you tell us the name of the place that you found them? AMP, Agency or web site?

A few years back I too got ripped off a few times. I decided to try the "Pay after Play" and it didn't work for me. I didn't want to waste my time so instead of asking them when I arrived. I asked them via text after the amount was agreed upon if they would do " Pay After Play ". I tried this with 30 to 40 different providers mostly from sites like EB, STGs etc. The replies that I received back were 100% NO! I then tried to ask if they would do half upfront and half after. Again 100 % NO! When they replied back with NO. I explained to them that I asked because I had been ripped of in the past. The few replies I received from them were all " I have too " that's why I won't do it.

Am I missing something? Is there a certain tactic you use to get them to agree to Pay after Play besides walk out if they won't?[/QUOTE]You're not missing anything. Some people will argue without answering follow up questions and keep hammering a point home without any substantial facts to back up their point. They want to be right, they don't want to get it right. Take Ron, I have asked and others have asked who specifically he has seen that agrees to take money after the fact. He didn't respond to me publicly (or privately) and he didn't respond to the others at least publicly. Someone else on this forum went through his last 250 or so posts and didn't find a single review on a specific girl. That should be a clue right there.

I am not interested in being right in an argument. I am not interested in winning the debate or getting someone on an opposing viewpoint to admit I was right. I am more worried about getting it right. So this will be my last comment on this subject about paying before vs. later. I am only writing this post so others who are reading this thread and don't know what to do can read my thoughts and make a decision based on what they perceived as being right for them. If paying after is your goal go for it. If you find a provider who is willing to do this great for you. I hope you leave a review and let others know your success. For me, I am just going to ignore these pay later posts unless someone tells a specific provider that allows this and others write reviews confirming. But by continuing this topic you are giving the pay later but I won't tell who crowd what they want, attention. It's really no different that the infamous Hangingballs who would leave outrageous reviews and then when called out on it would leave more. He got attention and that's all he wanted. Let's stop and get back on topic. This particular thread is about rip offs and scams. Let us get back to calling out the providers who are trying to steal our money.

B.

Thanks to everyone who took time to post their experiences with paying before versus paying after. I was glad to read that I am not the only sucker who pays up front! I agree with the last post, not here to argue, just sharing my experience for those who are on the fence about this.

I have been hobbying for about 5 years and I never book a session without some research. No verifiable reviews, I move on, no matter how good they look. I always pay up front and I've never been ripped off after hundreds of sessions. It took a few years to build up my contact list, but at this point, I know more solid providers than I can ever possibly see in a year. I never have to worry about these ladies ripping me off. I have ladies on my list at every price point, including several lower tier ladies who are always available for those last minute, late night cravings, but are not scam artists.

If you enjoy the thrill of always meeting up with a different woman, or you enjoy finding the best bargain out there, then you will probably have more high risk encounters. But, if you take your time and do your research, there are many solid, well reviewed providers out there at every price point who are not looking to rip people off.

Deposits are another thing entirely. The woman would have to be very well known and reviewed, otherwise, no way.

[QUOTE=RonM;5585336]As you know I'm a Payment Afterwards proponent.

Those in favor of Payment Upfront gave me insight of why this method is best. I'm in agreement with most points. But it's not enough to convince me to ever pay upfront. Especially reading about Jinurso's harrowing personal experiences. [/QUOTE]"harrowing experiences" - losing $1,000 over 400 experiences by using good decision making? $2. 50 per transaction? Do you use credit cards which takes 3% per swipe? Damn, in my business I have to make or break 10 K in decisions every day on who to do deals with and who not to. There are a lot of unprofessionals in the world, and you have to decide who to work with and who not to. And there are not that many businesses, or business professionals out there, so I'm like what? Something is off here. Please tell us more.

There is also a middle ground. At AMP's, sometimes the tip payment gets pushed to the end, and for me at least, has often never been negotiated, even at first time places. And my philosophy on the delayed pay at the end is: "thank you for not being a boner killer and I will tip generously" where "generously" probably means $20 over what might be the going rate for a L1, L2 or L3 (I think I am probably on point on L2 and L3, just tip more on L1 to get the street cred, and I'd tip $20 bucks no matter if I got a L1 or not). They will sometime negotiate in the middle of a sessions. I have sometimes negotiated a lower level based on their pricing, but I still pay mid session if they ask. I'm not in this to get the cheapest hand job possible, I just like to relax.

[QUOTE=IndigoWalk;5586795]"harrowing experiences" - losing $1,000 over 400 experiences by using good decision making? $2. 50 per transaction? Do you use credit cards which takes 3% per swipe? [/QUOTE]And on top of that, in most of those cases I suspect the result would have been even more harrowing had I chosen not to pay.

The takeaway for me wasn't to stop paying upfront, it was to do a better job vetting the escorts.

[QUOTE=Bkmsw;5585887]
Take Ron, I have asked and others have asked who specifically he has seen that agrees to take money after the fact.
[/QUOTE]I asked him for info, but I didn't even ask for that much, specifically. I just wanted to know what percent of the time the girl went for it, as opposed to how often the girl sending him packing. I asked multiple times. Crickets. I guess math is hard. 🤣.

[QUOTE=Bkmsw;5585887]
Someone else on this forum went through his last 250 or so posts and didn't find a single review on a specific girl. [/QUOTE]That was me, too. If he'd actually given a girl a good review, then by his statement, that would be a girl that would accept payment after.

Of course, if a girl has good reviews, the issue of paying before or after is *much* less of an issue.

BTW, for me, this is all regarding paying of escorts, typically found on LC. It's not about deposits for incalls - that's always a hard no. It's not about tipping at massage parlors, I haven't been. And like others here, once I've seen a girl a few times, it often doesn't get handled until later in the events.

Had seen Marissa last year with no incident (it was a flavor of the month thing. COVID did weird things to me to try a lot of different things out). She reached out to me last night and for whatever reason I bit. (more on that in another thread). I should have known something was off because she kept hard selling / pushing the two girl /"double trouble" even before the visit, when I was clear I just wanted a hhr trip to greece. Anyway, get there in the same place that everything was fine the first couple of visits, and she's still trying to aggressively sell the upgrade, and I'm starting to get comfortable with my shoes off - "let me bring her out. Hey Skittles. " and now between me and the door is a guy who has at least 6 inches on me, and with 30 years of youth on me as well.

All in all, a calm and professional robbery. I hand over the donation, all my pockets are searched, I got to keep my phone and car key. I brought nothing else with.

So it really doesn't matter if you pay upfront or not. That kind of situation is going to happen from time to time. Stay calm. I'm a little surprised repeat visitors would be robbed. Seems like a bad business practice. Anyone got insight on this?

[URL]https://chicago.skipthegames.com/female-escorts/caucasian_w/60qv-soft-to-the-touchseducti/690593223679[/URL]

To take the edge off, I did have a delightful hhr session with SageRose. Complete 180 degrees in body type. Big, Small, I like them all! LOL.

[URL]https://chicago.rubratings.com/245092[/URL]

So I went into the city today and both of my plans fell through on me, so it left me scrambling to find anything. I came across this ad and she answered texts quickly. Instead of quoting me rates, she asks "Do you have $300?" I told her I did and asked if that included FS. She told me it did and she was near Diversey and Laramie. I had to the area and text her when I get there. Gives me the address of the apartment building across the street and says come on in. I walk up to the front door and it's locked. She calls me at that time and tells me she's actually across the street. I stay on the phone with her as I walk across the street and she tells me her friend is leaving and her friend will hold the door for me. I ask if her friend is a man or woman and she tells me he's a transgender person. Then she makes it a point to tell me "Make sure you have the donation out right when you walk in so I know you're not a cop. ".

So as if all the other things weren't off already, I finally decide to book out of there before her "friend" came to the door and possibly tried to rob me. One last thing, the pics are of a white or Hispanic woman. When she called me, it was clearly the voice of a black woman on the phone. I didn't want to stick around to find out if it was legit or not. Now her ad is stating $120 flash sale.

Just FYI. Be careful out there.

I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet. But paying up front removes the last threshold before they get you if it happens to be a LEO bust. If you read the IL criminal code, central to the crime of prostitution is the exchange of money for sex. And since cops are not allowed to get naked or touch for sting ops, they can't pay AFTER the fact. So as long as you keep your mouth shut, you still have room to beat the charge of solicitation or attempt long as the exchange of money hasn't taken place.

The only time I pay money upfront is if the girl's already fully or partially naked (Tits or pussy out) AND has been reported on positively or I've seen her before and I know she gives good service.

[QUOTE=MrWhite627;5585618]

I didn't want to waste my time so instead of asking them when I arrived, I asked them via text after the amount was agreed upon if they would do " Pay After Play ". I tried this with 30 to 40 different providers mostly from sites like EB, STGs etc. The replies that I received back were 100% NO! [/QUOTE]That's what I'd expect, actually: at that point she's got no skin in the game. I'm pretty sure Ron said he'd go see the girl and then tell her he expected to pay after (and if she disagreed, he walked). At that point, she's spent the time waiting. But you've also spent the time driving. So when she still says no, which is apparently going to be (nearly) always, you're out all that time *plus* the trip back home. That's what motivated my initial questions about his batting average, which was never answered. At that point, I didn't really doubt him - I just wanted some idea of how much I'd have to go through.

I'll only insist on after if I've already had problems with the chick. That's happened twice. In one case, I just decided I didn't trust the b!tch not to harm me anyhow, because she was fucked up *worse* than drugs and booze could account for. . The other was Jessica, and that worked out, but the reports on her here got increasingly dire, so that only happened once.

I might try the 'drive there and insist on after' on this one, Mercedes Wave: [URL]https://escortbabylon.net/posts_list/7085221465/1[/URL] because she's pretty hot, but a girl using most of the same pics (possibly under a previous number) [B]got multiple absolutely terrible reviews.[/B] (So bad that I'm unsure there's any way to get a good session out of her. Reports were that she actually *enjoyed* fucking wit guys.) And if she's in South Holland or Lansing, there's a bunch of other girls to go see if she doesn't go for it. And maybe that's the secret to the Ron approach: you try the pay after approach, and if it bombs and you're in a target-rich environment, you try it again with other girls, so it doesn't take a million trips. Or you settle on seeing one and paying before, but Ron denies that's ever happened, so who knows?

Again, this applies to LC girls, not agency or massage parlor.

[QUOTE=LS4V8;5600375]I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet. But paying up front removes the last threshold before they get you if it happens to be a LEO bust. If you read the IL criminal code, central to the crime of prostitution is the exchange of money for sex. And since cops are not allowed to get naked or touch for sting ops, they can't pay AFTER the fact. So as long as you keep your mouth shut, you still have room to beat the charge of solicitation or attempt long as the exchange of money hasn't taken place.

The only time I pay money upfront is if the girl's already fully or partially naked (Tits or pussy out) AND has been reported on positively or I've seen her before and I know she gives good service.[/QUOTE]Please stop spreading these horrible lies about what's legal and illegal.

1) You do not have to exchange $ for it to be illegal, if you told the girl you'd buy her a Subway sandwich after the act. That's illegal.

(720 ILCS 5/11-14) (from Ch. 38, par. 11-14).

Sec. 11-14. Prostitution.

(a) Any person who knowingly performs, offers or agrees to perform any act of sexual penetration as defined in Section 11-0. 1 of this Code for anything of value, or any touching or fondling of the sex organs of one person by another person, for anything of value, for the purpose of sexual arousal or gratification commits an act of prostitution.

2) Male cops do touch and do get naked, many example on the AMP arrest articles and the one below. Female cops will probably not get naked but it wouldn't be off limits, if you watch some of the MSNBC shows they girls in the stings will hug and rub on the guys before the arrest.

[URL]https://apnews.com/article/york-prostitution-police-arrests-42cd8231793b4ca8aa062f053484465b[/URL]

[QUOTE=Jayp80;5601193]Please stop spreading these horrible lies about what's legal and illegal.

1) You do not have to exchange $ for it to be illegal, if you told the girl you'd buy her a Subway sandwich after the act. That's illegal.

(720 ILCS 5/11-14) (from Ch. 38, par. 11-14).

Sec. 11-14. Prostitution.

(a) Any person who knowingly performs, offers or agrees to perform any act of sexual penetration as defined in Section 11-0. 1 of this Code for anything of value, or any touching or fondling of the sex organs of one person by another person, for anything of value, for the purpose of sexual arousal or gratification commits an act of prostitution.

2) Male cops do touch and do get naked, many example on the AMP arrest articles and the one below. Female cops will probably not get naked but it wouldn't be off limits, if you watch some of the MSNBC shows they girls in the stings will hug and rub on the guys before the arrest.

[URL]https://apnews.com/article/york-prostitution-police-arrests-42cd8231793b4ca8aa062f053484465b[/URL][/QUOTE]The article you linked proved my point. That's in Pennsylvania. This is a section of the forum for CHICAGO, which is in ILLINOIS. In the state of Illinois, the protocol is still no nudity or touching for stings. And I don't see the geriatrics on the court in Springfield changing that anytime soon. Outside of Cook County, this is still a fairly conservative state. Good luck to any sheriff or prosecutor telling the public that their officers got naked and participated in sexual activity while on the public's dime.

Speaking of Cook County. Do you honestly think Kim Foxx is going to go after an iffy case of some horndog paying for sex? She drops felonies when they're dubious or weak cases. Paying for sex ranks way low on the list of priorities and the more cloudy the case, the more likely it'll be dropped or just not charged in the first place.

[QUOTE=SGlider;5600199][URL]https://chicago.rubratings.com/245092[/URL]

So I went into the city today and both of my plans fell through on me, so it left me scrambling to find anything. I came across this ad and she answered texts quickly. Instead of quoting me rates, she asks "Do you have $300?" I told her I did and asked if that included FS. She told me it did and she was near Diversey and Laramie. I had to the area and text her when I get there. Gives me the address of the apartment building across the street and says come on in. I walk up to the front door and it's locked. She calls me at that time and tells me she's actually across the street. I stay on the phone with her as I walk across the street and she tells me her friend is leaving and her friend will hold the door for me. I ask if her friend is a man or woman and she tells me he's a transgender person. Then she makes it a point to tell me "Make sure you have the donation out right when you walk in so I know you're not a cop. ".

So as if all the other things weren't off already, I finally decide to book out of there before her "friend" came to the door and possibly tried to rob me. One last thing, the pics are of a white or Hispanic woman. When she called me, it was clearly the voice of a black woman on the phone. I didn't want to stick around to find out if it was legit or not. Now her ad is stating $120 flash sale.

Just FYI. Be careful out there.[/QUOTE]There's so many red flags here. You guys got to be careful about this stuff. I know your little head is telling you to go ahead and put up with these weird signs. But, you have to snap out of it or else you risk getting hurt or robbed. I don't want to sound condescending, but I don't think a real working lady will plainly ask you "Do you have $300". If her voice doesn't seem to match, leave. They might've been looking through a window too scoping out the area, when they tricked you telling you to cross the street.

Stay safe guys.