"Sugarbabies" / "Arrangements" Amateurs or Not?

[JZLizard]

JL. Great post.

Out of curiosity and for benchmark information, how do you define net monthly income? For example do you define it as after taxes, deductions for 401 k, retirement, health plan premiuims and flexible spending accounts?

Alternatively do you define net monthly income in the context of a small business owner who would have to account for business expenses before calculating a monthly or annual salary?

In the former context, 2-3 % of net monthly income (after taxes, and deductions assuming one is in the 39% tax bracket) would mean, by my rough math, that the SD should be pulling in an annual salary upwards of $200 k +.

In the latter context, taxes and deductions wouldn't be figured into the net monthly income and so it could make a big difference.

This of course assumes dating costs (inclusive of allowance, meals, trips, etc) of around $200-$300 per date.

For the younger fellahs out there who are considering this lifestyle, the difference in the benchmark that you might be proposing could be eyeopening.

The problem with hard definitions of net monthly income, or even absolute percentages of per-date budget is that there can be such variance in individual situations that they really need to be considered on a per case basis. For example, health plan premiums can be very different for a single guy vs. A married guy with family. One guy rents an apartment but puts 12% of his gross monthly into a 401 k, while another guy has a mortgage but puts 6% of his gross into 401 k and 6% toward early mortgage pay down (there is no general agreement among finance experts on whether early mortgage principal pay down with a guaranteed savings of maybe 4% mortgage interest is better than investing in mutual funds that average maybe 8% over the long run while paying the 4% mortgage interest, ultimately ending up with the same 4% return).

So, coming up with an exact definition of net monthly income is tricky, but for purposes of my 2-3% guideline, I think of it as the number on their paycheck at the end of the week or month (and in the case of business owners, the net salary they pay themselves out of company assets). In other words after taxes, insurance premiums, after 401 k contributions, and other "given" deductions that pretty much everyone will have (or should).

Now, the tricky part to this is 2-3% is that it begs the question "how many times per month? And that's somewhere I doubt anyone could accurately go, because most SDs have some sort of real limitation on how many times per month they can date that is not even defined by finance. There have been some folks here reporting success of lining up very cost-effective fucks almost every day of the month, but I don't think that's a typical SD scenario at all. If I were unattached and wanted to be an SD serial dater, I would probably try to keep my dating activities limited to 2-3 times per week, or more likely have an SB come stay with me for a weekend (perhaps even most weekends). When I'm single, I actually like to focus on work and other things in life during the week and looking forward to sport fucking on the weekend gives me something to look forward to. If I separated from my SO right now, I would probably not limit my dating to SBs but use regular dating to get as much free pussy as possible, and use SBs to keep me busy during the slow periods of that (civy dating can be less predictable sometimes and its always good to have something to fall back on).

So. Does an SD need to make $200 k+ a year? I don't think so. What an SD's cost is or should be just depends on how often he wants to date, what caliber of pussy he is going for, how good he is at his game.

I think as a general rule if an SD doesn't have a six figure salary (or pay themselves at least that much if self-employed), they aren't really qualified to be an SD, but $100 k a year doesn't go as far in some cities so even that guideline isn't rigid.

What I do think is that if a guy is in their 20's, and making something like $60 k a year, they are nuts if they spend money on SBs. There are cheaper options at that age and they are just forming habits at too young an age they are going to regret. On the other hand if someone is 70 and living on retirement income and they want to spend everything above and beyond what they need to survive on SBs simply because it's the only thing that makes life worth living, well I'd say that's their prerogative because at that age they are less concerned about forming habits than just living day to day and enjoying life as best they can.

[IluvSmellyFish]

JL. Great post.

Out of curiosity and for benchmark information, how do you define net monthly income? For example do you define it as after taxes, deductions for 401 k, retirement, health plan premiuims and flexible spending accounts?

Alternatively do you define net monthly income in the context of a small business owner who would have to account for business expenses before calculating a monthly or annual salary?

In the former context, 2-3 % of net monthly income (after taxes, and deductions assuming one is in the 39% tax bracket) would mean, by my rough math, that the SD should be pulling in an annual salary upwards of $200 k +.

In the latter context, taxes and deductions wouldn't be figured into the net monthly income and so it could make a big difference.

This of course assumes dating costs (inclusive of allowance, meals, trips, etc) of around $200-$300 per date.

For the younger fellahs out there who are considering this lifestyle, the difference in the benchmark that you might be proposing could be eyeopening.

Smellyfish: when I was still under 40, I had not even considered the SD scene yet, but what I did find was that the big 40 is right around the cutoff age for many for the bar scene, perhaps largely depending on genetics. At least if you're looking for 20 year olds. If you're 40 and live somewhere with a vibrant 30+ scene, then enjoy fucking the 30+ single moms, its some of the best pussy on the planet.

But as far as being 40+ in the bar scene, it limits where you can have success.

So, I did advise one guy here to learn to navigate the bar scene before going for SBs. I think he was in his mid 20's though? Yes absolutely at that age. He should be developing his game, because when he gets older the amount of pussy he gets on the SB scene and how much he pays for it will also be affected by how much game he has acquired along the way, and because practice makes perfect it helps to start as early as possible.

I encouraged him to try not only bars, but the amazing amount of online options -- match, tinder, god knows what the mobile hookup app of the day is (I don't even keep up any more). It's even better now than it was at my online-dating peak. Girls in their 20's have grown-up watching porn, they know what to do and have a completely different attitude toward casual sex compared to 20-30 years ago. These are still options for SDs to explore too, they just have to understand that potential SBs on match are much different than pots you meet on an SD site. You can only spot them by their age preference, and you have to approach them differently.

A general guideline is that if a cost of a single date (that results in a fuck) exceeds 2-3 percent of our NET monthly income, it's likely a bad idea financially (assuming a reasonable number of dates per month), so most guys straight out of college wouldn't be able to afford an ongoing SB. This works against them, because true SBs already know this -- they can sense them coming miles away.

Most of the true SBs on SD sites are there because they have genuine fuck-lust for older men in addition to the lifestyle upgrade, not just the allowance.

[JZLizard]

My 30 days with SA is over and I could not get a single decent SB. They started at $300 per date and my max was $150 may be 200 occasionally with that gem!

Will I have any better luck on SD4 ME? Or should I just save my $30.

I have not tried SD4 me, but understand that there is better luck at lower price points, depending on your location.

Personally, I have had no problems on SA and my date range is similar to yours. My sugar allowance ranges from $100 - $250 depending on the baby. Granted this does not include hotel or other dating costs. After you consider hotels and dating costs, my date costs range between $250 - $500 per date.

I play in the mid Atlantic region. I suspect that I can keep my allowance low because it helps that I am athletic / fit, am under 40, well educated, have a career that requires me to be talk to strangers on a regular basis, and would probably be able to pick many of these girls in a bar.

Like HWG though, the sugar helps with control in the relationship and let's me get away with things that probably wouldn't be acceptable if I was "civvy" dating. With an SO in the background, the sugar relationship bridges the gap between escorts. Which I've found lacking, and leading a life banging the same pussy every night.

I think Jeezlizzard advised a young man in this forum to consider refining his game at the bar. If you're not limited by having an SO it may be something you may want to consider. It is amazing how confidence can be a massive game changer when going back and forth with some of these young babies.

Just my two cents.

Smellyfish: when I was still under 40, I had not even considered the SD scene yet, but what I did find was that the big 40 is right around the cutoff age for many for the bar scene, perhaps largely depending on genetics. At least if you're looking for 20 year olds. If you're 40 and live somewhere with a vibrant 30+ scene, then enjoy fucking the 30+ single moms, its some of the best pussy on the planet.

But as far as chasing college aged poon -- as I started entering my late 30's, I thought to myself "holy shit this is going to get better as I got older, isn't it?" My skills were only getting better each week, yet it seemed like nobody even realized my age. Depending on what I decided to wear, people would guess me easily 15 years younger than I am. Women pay attention to how we carry ourselves, and if we carry ourselves like a married man with no confidence they sense it. If we carry ourselves like a cocksmith, they sense it.

But as far as being 40+ in the bar scene, it limits where you can have success. What would happen is someone half my age would flirt, the hookup would begin, and because I'm not a good liar, not long after talking to me she would realize based on my career accomplishments or whatever that I was older than she thought and ask my age. When they found out I'm approaching their dad's age, they would suddenly weird out, maybe excuse themselves to go to the ladies room and not come back, etc. Every now and then you find one in a bar that doesn't care or is too drunk enough to care, but most of the time they are with their age-appropriate friends looking for age-appropriate hookups. There's nothing more depressing than having your tongue down her throat on the dance floor one minute groping her ass, only to see a complete turnaround of events after she learns your age.

So, I did advise one guy here to learn to navigate the bar scene before going for SBs. I think he was in his mid 20's though? Yes absolutely at that age. He should be developing his game, because when he gets older the amount of pussy he gets on the SB scene and how much he pays for it will also be affected by how much game he has acquired along the way, and because practice makes perfect it helps to start as early as possible. I think a lot of people reading the thread think that these web sites are just an easy way to get better looking hookers at better rates, and no doubt there is some UTR action going on, but that's only a fraction of what can be obtained there. UTR girls are a great convenience for the married types who don't have time for an SB, or as time-fillers until a real SB can be lined up, but if a guy in his 20's is making a beeline for the UTR girls, using SD sites as a supplement for escorts, then I'd say it's a sad day. He's resigned to a life of monger-ship too early, and that is going to prevent him from getting some of the best pussy life has to offer.

I encouraged him to try not only bars, but the amazing amount of online options -- match, tinder, god knows what the mobile hookup app of the day is (I don't even keep up any more). It's even better now than it was at my online-dating peak. Girls in their 20's have grown-up watching porn, they know what to do and have a completely different attitude toward casual sex compared to 20-30 years ago. These are still options for SDs to explore too, they just have to understand that potential SBs on match are much different than pots you meet on an SD site. You can only spot them by their age preference, and you have to approach them differently. Announce yourself as an SD without tact and you're done before you got started. But they are there, even if they aren't comfortable putting a label on the term "sugarbaby", the thought has crossed their mind.

But above all, I advised the young fellow to take advantage of those options because (a) they are free and (b) trying to be a sugar daddy when you are in your mid 20's, unless you are a filthy rich celebrity or something, is going to work against you very quickly. At that age most guys income is such that they can afford an escort here and there, so they might see the "per fuck" rates talked about here and feel its within budget, but most of them do not yet have significant net worth built up yet, so that is future net worth straight out the window for them (bad idea). A general guideline is that if a cost of a single date (that results in a fuck) exceeds 2-3 percent of our NET monthly income, it's likely a bad idea financially (assuming a reasonable number of dates per month), so most guys straight out of college wouldn't be able to afford an ongoing SB. This works against them, because true SBs already know this -- they can sense them coming miles away.

If someone is just born into money, won the lottery, has a trust fund or whatever then by all means have at it, but I still think that they will get much more for their money by throwing it around in the normal dating scene (online and / or bars) than they will as an SD. Most of the true SBs on SD sites are there because they have genuine fuck-lust for older men in addition to the lifestyle upgrade, not just the allowance. The one thing they have in common though is that their panties get wet for experience and real career accomplishments as opposed to "rich kid with inheritance" money. I can actually relate to that to some degree, when I was dating, every now and then I would meet a really hot medical student or in some cases a doctor or other young lady with a nice job, and just knowing her career accomplishments made her about 5 x sexier than if I didn't know she was smart / educated and destined for success. It's probably something in our breeding instinct that drives us toward accomplished people, but the drive is even stronger between young females and older men.

If these young guys get in the habit of spending all their disposable income on hookers when they are young, they will never even know what it's like to be a true SD. While still young, work on developing game and free pussy. It will benefit you later. Learn to have the self-discipline to walk away when you need to call a woman on their bluff -- they interpret that as confidence, and it pays dividends once you master the skill.

So there's the lecture of the week from professor Jeez. lol

[IluvSmellyFish]

I have not tried SD4 me, but understand that there is better luck at lower price points, depending on your location.

Personally, I have had no problems on SA and my date range is similar to yours. My sugar allowance ranges from $100 - $250 depending on the baby. Granted this does not include hotel or other dating costs. After you consider hotels and dating costs, my date costs range between $250 - $500 per date.

I play in the mid Atlantic region. I suspect that I can keep my allowance low because it helps that I am athletic / fit, am under 40, well educated, have a career that requires me to be talk to strangers on a regular basis, and would probably be able to pick many of these girls in a bar.

Like HWG though, the sugar helps with control in the relationship and let's me get away with things that probably wouldn't be acceptable if I was "civvy" dating. With an SO in the background, the sugar relationship bridges the gap between escorts. Which I've found lacking, and leading a life banging the same pussy every night.

I think Jeezlizzard advised a young man in this forum to consider refining his game at the bar. If you're not limited by having an SO it may be something you may want to consider. It is amazing how confidence can be a massive game changer when going back and forth with some of these young babies.

Just my two cents.

My 30 days with SA is over and I could not get a single decent SB. They started at $300 per date and my max was $150 may be 200 occasionally with that gem!

Will I have any better luck on SD4 ME? Or should I just save my $30.

[HollywoodGuy]

I'm trying to tweak my method with the wisdom of my brothers here and from other sites in the 'manosphere' online. It's a constantly evolving game.

Being a marketing executive that's worked as a consultant to the online dating industry for many years, I can say that truer words were never spoken. Even this week I came up with a new campaign for one of my customers. Like you say, its constantly evolving. As our lives, needs and wants change we need to be flexible and willing to experiment to get what we want. When I first started out and used to see girls saying they would meet once or twice a week I thought that was crazy. I wanted a 24/7 live in baby, and thats what I got. Within a year that all changed. I still like long term, but with multiple babies.

Also my finances dropped and I had to adjust for that. My sexual preferences evovled in some ways and I had to retarget again. My adult daughter moved back home and I had to accommodate for that. Recently I got a little ill and had to flake on a bunch of M&G's. I got played out a bit on SD4M and went to SA. Even today something got tweeked in USASG in firefox and I had to switch to chrome just to type this post. It never ends.

My current ATF is making it as difficult as possible for me to meet new girls. She knows what I do and never complains. She is just a total man pleaser. But like a lot of guys I need some variety. With two regulars and one booty call girl still in rotation this leaves very little time to interview. I have officially dropped my MILF of 3 years in part because of my ATF. And I am having my least expensive month in maybe 7 years this month, partly due to illness and partly due to financial responsibilities.

I have been cost cutting ever since the so called recession started. But have been deficit spending for 4 years now. Not a good long term strategy. It was actually the recession that got me to up my game. I was fat, happy and lame. Not anymore. Now I run a lean mean pussy machine.

[PghGuy2005]

My 30 days with SA is over and I could not get a single decent SB. They started at $300 per date and my max was $150 may be 200 occasionally with that gem!

Will I have any better luck on SD4 ME? Or should I just save my $30.

[LandonR]

Sent my obligatory "It was nice meeting you. Hope you got home safe message" early today and have not gotten any response back. I'm guessing she was disappointed there was no sugar given last night. I'll probably need to decide if she is worth investing in or not. Time will tell. Landon.

I'm confused. This is a Sugar Pursuit for the girls -a business or side job. While I admire those of you who can happily get free pussy, it is rare indeed that an SB doesn't expect a payday or at the very least a gift or treat that makes her feel special and not used. She made it clear that she expected to be spoiled. If you want to keep in business with girls who want to keep seeing you decide on what your "number" is. A stiff and athletic penis is not generally enough. There are a load of those to be had and many of these ladies can get their pick. Just sayin '.

Understand completely. I realize the game I'm playing right now will only net me a date or two with these girls before they decide to move on and I'm OK with. I'm currently in the process of going through a divorce right now so I am not in financial position to be paying these girls. I've generally entered into each of these dates telling them "I don't pay for female companionship" and instead try and paint a picture that they get to hang out with a older, fun, non-creepy guy that loves to travel. I'm also enjoy the freshness of the chase and am not necessarily looking for a regular one right now. There's only been one in the past 6 months or so that I'm truly disappointed that I lost and I know for a fact that I lost her because never locked her down with a sugar arrangement and she found a better offer.

I believe it is FScott from these forums that always encourages us to treat these ladies with respect. I have tried to do that in each of my interactions. I try to never promise them anything I truly have no intention of fulfilling. When I tell them I'd love to take them to Vegas with me. I mean it. I'd really love to take them to Vegas with me. However, that might be a year from now or so.

There are many different ways to play this game. I'm trying to tweak my method with the wisdom of my brothers here and from other sites in the 'manosphere' online. It's a constantly evolving game.

[HollywoodGuy]

Sent my obligatory "It was nice meeting you. Hope you got home safe message" early today and have not gotten any response back. I'm guessing she was disappointed there was no sugar given last night. I'll probably need to decide if she is worth investing in or not. Time will tell. Landon.

I'm confused. This is a Sugar Pursuit for the girls -a business or side job. While I admire those of you who can happily get free pussy, it is rare indeed that an SB doesn't expect a payday or at the very least a gift or treat that makes her feel special and not used. She made it clear that she expected to be spoiled. If you want to keep in business with girls who want to keep seeing you decide on what your "number" is. A stiff and athletic penis is not generally enough. There are a load of those to be had and many of these ladies can get their pick. Just sayin '.

Except in rare circumstances I don't want a girl that won't take my money. Its about control. And the sugar is half of it.

[FredMoore]

Sent my obligatory "It was nice meeting you. Hope you got home safe message" early today and have not gotten any response back. I'm guessing she was disappointed there was no sugar given last night. I'll probably need to decide if she is worth investing in or not. Time will tell. Landon.

I'm confused. This is a Sugar Pursuit for the girls -a business or side job. While I admire those of you who can happily get free pussy, it is rare indeed that an SB doesn't expect a payday or at the very least a gift or treat that makes her feel special and not used. She made it clear that she expected to be spoiled. If you want to keep in business with girls who want to keep seeing you decide on what your "number" is. A stiff and athletic penis is not generally enough. There are a load of those to be had and many of these ladies can get their pick. Just sayin '.

[IluvSmellyFish]

My own practice. I always only book last minute using a hotel app after I have confirmed FC trip plans with a trusted previously tested SB or directly after closing the deal with a pot who agrees to the trip while we are in person together.

It is also why, now that I have a rotation of trusted babies, I have been booking m&gs with pots in conjunction with FC trips with trusted babies.

My rationale, even if I get a great room at a crazy good rate, it is worthless without a trip to the FC. On the other hand, if you're out with a baby or a pot, and you're headed to the FC, you can still find a decent hotel deal with a phone app. Worst case scenario is that you book at a lower end hotel.

I personally have never been in a situation where a baby backs out if a FC trip after agreeing to it while you're on a date with her.

Also as a heads up, the bowl is jumping in my particular region of the mid Atlantic.

Happy hunting.

I hit it off last week with a 10/10 SB. Great dinner conversation, ended the night kissing and both eager to meet again. No discussion on sugar. I made dinner reservations this weekend. This girl doesn't respond to text and when she does it very brief. She's 21 full-time grad student so I figure maybe she's busy. The only thing she's done is accepted the dinner invite. Then she went dark for a few days.

Me being preemptive I booked a nice hotel for the whole weekend. She's not aware of the hotel. I booked it mostly because I got a huge discount rate. What are the chances this chick flakes? Also, I may have to reach back out to some SBs that I thought I moved on from. I suppose I could recruit some new talent to meet up at my 5 star hotel and see how it goes?

[LandonR]

I hit it off last week with a 10/10 SB. Great dinner conversation, ended the night kissing and both eager to meet again. No discussion on sugar. I made dinner reservations this weekend. This girl doesn't respond to text and when she does it very brief. She's 21 full-time grad student so I figure maybe she's busy. The only thing she's done is accepted the dinner invite. Then she went dark for a few days.

Me being preemptive I booked a nice hotel for the whole weekend. She's not aware of the hotel. I booked it mostly because I got a huge discount rate. What are the chances this chick flakes? Also, I may have to reach back out to some SBs that I thought I moved on from. I suppose I could recruit some new talent to meet up at my 5 star hotel and see how it goes?

I hate to say it man, but this doesn't look good for you. A 10/10 21 year old has plenty of options for a weekend night. I would pre-empt itand tell her something came up and try to rebook her next week for like Tuesday or Wednesday night.

[HollywoodGuy]

I hit it off last week with a 10/10 SB. Great dinner conversation, ended the night kissing and both eager to meet again. No discussion on sugar. I made dinner reservations this weekend. This girl doesn't respond to text and when she does it very brief. She's 21 full-time grad student so I figure maybe she's busy. The only thing she's done is accepted the dinner invite. Then she went dark for a few days.

Me being preemptive I booked a nice hotel for the whole weekend. She's not aware of the hotel. I booked it mostly because I got a huge discount rate. What are the chances this chick flakes? Also, I may have to reach back out to some SBs that I thought I moved on from. I suppose I could recruit some new talent to meet up at my 5 star hotel and see how it goes?

I would line up about 6 pots as backup.

[HoyaSvnFgr]

I hit it off last week with a 10/10 SB. Great dinner conversation, ended the night kissing and both eager to meet again. No discussion on sugar. I made dinner reservations this weekend. This girl doesn't respond to text and when she does it very brief. She's 21 full-time grad student so I figure maybe she's busy. The only thing she's done is accepted the dinner invite. Then she went dark for a few days.

Me being preemptive I booked a nice hotel for the whole weekend. She's not aware of the hotel. I booked it mostly because I got a huge discount rate. What are the chances this chick flakes? Also, I may have to reach back out to some SBs that I thought I moved on from. I suppose I could recruit some new talent to meet up at my 5 star hotel and see how it goes?

[LandonR]

Make sure you always ask for late checkout! You never know what is going to happen! .

So after Stripper Baby left last night I started sending out text messages to a number of contacts trying to see if I could get anyone to bite coming over either late at night or early the next morning. Luckily when I checked into the hotel last night I asked for late checkout because I was able to utilize it today. .

This 33 year old mom that gave me a hummer in the car a couple of weeks ago took the bait. I told her that I had gotten a hotel room and that I had a 1 pm late checkout and would love for her to come visit me. She said that she'd love to but had to work and only had an hour lunch break and the hotel was a good 15 minutes away from her office so it would have to be a "quickie".

I've been stressing the importance of maintaining your frame with these women and I think this baby was a prime example of that. Here's an excerpt from our text messaging exchanges.

Me: Just checked into a XYZ hotel. Can you sneak away tonight?

Her: I can't. I have my kids tonight.

Me: Come visit me in the morning.

Her: I have to work, what time are you checking out?

Me: 1 pm.

Her: I could come at lunch, it will have to be a quickie. LOL.

Her: (sends 2 naught pictures).

Her: What are you going to do for me?

Me: (send cock shot).

Her: Nice. I want that. Are you going to spoil me?

Me: You know that I don't pay for women, but I'm sure I'll figure out something for you.

Her: I'm thinking about it.

Her: (get this message around 8:30 am) I'll see you at 11:30 am. What's the room #?

I meet her at the hotel room at 11:30 and she immediately strips and begins to give that nice sloppy BJ that I remembered from the car. She's a very tiny woman but she certainly can take a pounding. Half way through our fun the hotel fire alarm went off but we ignored that and it eventually stopped right as I was unloading on her face.

She was out the door by about ten after noon and hopefully wasn't too late for work.

Cost of Date: $0 (carry over cost from the room from the night before).

Sugar: $0.

UPDATE FROM STRIPPER BABY: Sent my obligatory "It was nice meeting you. Hope you got home safe message" early today and have not gotten any response back. I'm guessing she was disappointed there was no sugar given last night. I'll probably need to decide if she is worth investing in or not. Time will tell.

Have fun and stay safe!

[HollywoodGuy]

Met a 23 year old for the first time tonight. She drove 2 hours in a blinding snow storm to meet me. We had been texting for almost a month but have never been able to mesh our schedules up. She is actually a stripper. No sugar was ever discussed. Costs for the night: Drinks $10, Dinner $45, Hotel Room $42, $0 sugar. Half Bang.

A stripper drives for 2 hours and gives you a taste. Thats 4 hours total drive time. Unless you thought she was awesome and vice versa it was probably a one time deal. And an interesting date you won't soon forget. In the big picture is was just what had to be done. I am surprised she didn't try for an upsell. I can almost guarantee if she messages you back she will want $$ or more to continue. You must have sounded very sincere for her to invest that much into the M&G. I have had girls drive 90 minutes to see me and I always thought they were crazy. I know long distance seems to be the norm on here but I have never been able to make that work long term.