"Sugarbabies" / "Arrangements" Amateurs or Not?

[JoesParty]

To be honest, the *only* way I see this working at all is if you are talking about a *personal* assistant, unconnected with any company or corporation, *and* you offer the "job" to an existing SB as an additional benefit for *her, *and* you trust her a whole bunch. Even then, given the laws concerning sexual harassment in employment, you're opening yourself up for a criminal prosecution *and* a civil lawsuit later on if things go sour.

If you're working for a company and thinking about hiring a secretary or assistant there, forget it. If HR finds out, you're in the same sexual harassment boat, even *if* you and her are OK with it. The "beauty" of the harassment laws is that they can also be used by other, ostensibly unaffected employees, against you if they can make the case that others are being slighted in favor of your "assistant with benefits."

You could lose your job, and even make it harder to find another one if the details become public. Your current company might not reveal the circumstances of your termination, but they would be within their rights to do so if the case becomes criminal.

That completely ignores the possibility that if you are going to hire this person, you have to provide your real name on the paychecks, plus be responsible for all the taxes, FICA, etc.

/z

I am CONSIDERING doing something, and can think of no better place to air it than this forum. I'm considering hiring a legitimate assistant with "Benefits for bonuses." Have any of you gentlemen tried this, and with what result?

I'm with Zomby on this one. Even if you are self-employed, have no other employees, and both you and the girl are in on the "job description," YOU are shouldering all the personal risk here. What if the relationship goes south? What if she convinces some authority figure (and God help you if she hires a lawyer) that her "mean, disgusting boss demands sex all the time"? It's your word against hers, because you definitely don't want to put your arrangement in writing.

Add to this the other obstacles that Z points out, plus workers comp, insurance, and the like.

You are better off, as he notes, in throwing a few extra bucks to an existing SB to work as an occasional independent contractor, maybe providing cleaning services, filing services, etc. Nothing substantial, and nothing on a regular basis. WAY too many risks here.

[JoesParty]

As I've stated on this forum once before, I'm not a big-time player in the SD game. I have made small forays into it over the years with mixed results. I think I realized that I was too much of a soft-hearted sucker to profit from the SD-SB arrangement. In time, I also realized that I didn't have the sexual stamina and availability to get my money's worth out of the arrangement even where the SB was fully willing. But then, those may be my unique shortcomings.

Nevertheless, I did learn a few things. The main thing I learned is that this is supposed to be a hobby, right? It's supposed to be something that we pursue peripherally to our main focuses in life like family, work, love, enlightenment, etc. We're not supposed to become enraptured in the hobby to the detriment of other, more important life pursuits. We're not supposed to fall in love with women who we pay to spend time with us. We're not supposed to want to love someone that we have to pay to be with us. You know, we do "pay" them to tell us how ageless we look and act, how beautifully we make love, how great listeners we are, how thoughtful we are, how much of an aswer to their prayers we are. And we "pay" them to dress like a princess and fuck like a freak. We "pay" them to remember our birthdays when the SO doesn't. We "pay" them to kiss us long and passionately like we are the only men they could ever love. We "pay" them to thoughtfully surprise us with a wine and cheese picnic getaway after a tough week at work. In short, we pay them to be good / great actresses.

For the most part, they don't forget that they are in the "business" of acting out a particular man's romantic fantasy. We shouldn't forget that we are in the "business" of paying these women to be "lovable." But those of us who can't play and pay without actually falling in love are in for miserably disappointing and unfulfilled lives for as long as we stay in the SD game.

Well said. I am one of the guys who gets sucked in emotionally, though I am trying to change my stripes. I think some of the guys who are lucky enough to be with girls to whom they give little (or even no) allowance may quibble with this a bit, but even then, I think the basic message is important to take to heart: Whatever your situation, make sure nobody is taking advantage of you.

[Max999]

As I've stated on this forum once before, I'm not a big-time player in the SD game. I have made small forays into it over the years with mixed results. I think I realized that I was too much of a soft-hearted sucker to profit from the SD-SB arrangement. In time, I also realized that I didn't have the sexual stamina and availability to get my money's worth out of the arrangement even where the SB was fully willing. But then, those may be my unique shortcomings.

Nevertheless, I did learn a few things. The main thing I learned is that this is supposed to be a hobby, right? It's supposed to be something that we pursue peripherally to our main focuses in life like family, work, love, enlightenment, etc. We're not supposed to become enraptured in the hobby to the detriment of other, more important life pursuits. We're not supposed to fall in love with women who we pay to spend time with us. We're not supposed to want to love someone that we have to pay to be with us. You know, we do "pay" them to tell us how ageless we look and act, how beautifully we make love, how great listeners we are, how thoughtful we are, how much of an aswer to their prayers we are. And we "pay" them to dress like a princess and fuck like a freak. We "pay" them to remember our birthdays when the SO doesn't. We "pay" them to kiss us long and passionately like we are the only men they could ever love. We "pay" them to thoughtfully surprise us with a wine and cheese picnic getaway after a tough week at work. In short, we pay them to be good / great actresses.

For the most part, they don't forget that they are in the "business" of acting out a particular man's romantic fantasy. We shouldn't forget that we are in the "business" of paying these women to be "lovable." But those of us who can't play and pay without actually falling in love are in for miserably disappointing and unfulfilled lives for as long as we stay in the SD game.

[Zomby]

I am CONSIDERING doing something, and can think of no better place to air it than this forum. I'm considering hiring a legitimate assistant with "Benefits for bonuses." Have any of you gentlemen tried this, and with what result?

To be honest, the *only* way I see this working at all is if you are talking about a *personal* assistant, unconnected with any company or corporation, *and* you offer the "job" to an existing SB as an additional benefit for *her, *and* you trust her a whole bunch. Even then, given the laws concerning sexual harassment in employment, you're opening yourself up for a criminal prosecution *and* a civil lawsuit later on if things go sour.

If you're working for a company and thinking about hiring a secretary or assistant there, forget it. If HR finds out, you're in the same sexual harassment boat, even *if* you and her are OK with it. The "beauty" of the harassment laws is that they can also be used by other, ostensibly unaffected employees, against you if they can make the case that others are being slighted in favor of your "assistant with benefits."

You could lose your job, and even make it harder to find another one if the details become public. Your current company might not reveal the circumstances of your termination, but they would be within their rights to do so if the case becomes criminal.

That completely ignores the possibility that if you are going to hire this person, you have to provide your real name on the paychecks, plus be responsible for all the taxes, FICA, etc.

/z

[JoesParty]

Dear John

Thanks for your thoughts. Age is a funny thing. I am lucky to appear a lot younger than my age. Probably 45 to 52 as I am told vs my real age 63. Never the less, for an early 20 something even 40 is old. We were out all the time in public but when she had to consider bringing gramps into her circle of friends / family she was clear that it wasn't happening.

Divorce If you are unhappy in your relationship with W I would recommend divorcing sooner than later and moving on John. You are young and depending on your finances you will have many years to recoup your loss. At my age my earning power is limited by time and demand. A divorce would decimate me, but what price happiness? Most of us here who are married are not happily married (no secret there) We are all trying to have our cake and eat it too. Right? That mouthful will turn into a bitter pill eventually.

Overnights I have a job that requires me to travel for a day or two at a time, so it was easy to continue my schedule without raising suspicion. In the end she was suspicious and did not want to find out the truth that she suspected. She would have eventually done the private eye thing anyway. As was said earlier all it takes is a little slip here, a receipt there, to raise the bar.

GV is a good suggestion but I am tech challenged and just relied on the old tried and true phone. If it wasn't that it would be something else.

Short visits Are probably the hardest to detect because most of us have reasons to be off the radar for a few hours here and there. What made my affair so real were the nights together. We would go out for dinner, eat in, make love, then read together or watch TV like real people. It wasn't all about the hooker thing of racing into the notel, fucking our brains out, then going home to momma. That is a clear cut hooker / john scenario and is great if sex is all you are looking for. But in the end call it what it is anyway These relationships are call girl / john affairs. The blog at Seeking Arrangements is interesting if you have never gone on there. The girls protesteth too much about how they are not hookers even though they are accepting money in return for sex. I certainly don't like to think of my Baby as a hooker but she is still taking care of my needs in return for a generous allowance. So what is she? A wife? Haha.

Welcome back, Nando. I was starting to wonder if we'd ever hear from you again. Your post a couple months ago was a wake-up call for me, as I'm sure it was for many others. My wife, too, was having nagging suspicions. She never really articulated it, but I could tell she sensed something was amiss. So I decided to significantly curtail my activity. And just in time, too: She suddenly has taken a very active interest in the family finances. Had I not put a stop to my more obvious expenditures, I would have had some serious explaining to do. At this point, I can make do with a little bookkeeping slight of hand (nothing nefarious, just reclassifying my meager expenses).

I don't think I would have been as lucky as you, though. She would have exploded, and the resulting boom would have taken me out, I'm sure. I don't think our marriage would survive her finding out what I've been up to. And even though I am young (mid-30s) , we are so financially intertwined, and frankly, she makes more money, that I would be devastated financially. So it is best that I keep things simple and low-key from now on.

This is not to say that I stay with her only for the security or the money. When I seriously considered leaving last summer, I made a mental list-you know, the old pros and cons. And I was a bit surprised that the pros significantly outweighed the cons. I didn't think I was happy. But going through the exercise made me think about how luck I really am. What are the odds I'd find all of this in someone else? What if I *couldn't* find all of this in someone else? So I stayed, and I don't regret it.

Still, our relationship obviously is missing something I crave, so I'm out there playing in the sugar bowl. I struggle with this constantly. Is there a way to fix things at home? I guess the answer is "maybe," but neither of us seems interested in investing the effort to find out. Perhaps someday.

I hope things work out for you, one way or another, soon.

[Hernando]

Dear John

Thanks for your thoughts. Age is a funny thing. I am lucky to appear a lot younger than my age.probably 45 to 52 as I am told vs my real age 63. Never the less, for an early 20 something even 40 is old. We were out all the time in public but when she had to consider bringing gramps into her circle of friends / family she was clear that it wasn't happening.

Divorce If you are unhappy in your relationship with W I would recommend divorcing sooner than later and moving on John. You are young and depending on your finances you will have many years to recoup your loss. At my age my earning power is limited by time and demand. A divorce would decimate me, but what price happiness? Most of us here who are married are not happily married (no secret there) We are all trying to have our cake and eat it too.right? That mouthful will turn into a bitter pill eventually.

Overnights I have a job that requires me to travel for a day or two at a time, so it was easy to continue my schedule without raising suspicion. In the end she was suspicious and did not want to find out the truth that she suspected. She would have eventually done the private eye thing anyway. As was said earlier all it takes is a little slip here, a receipt there, to raise the bar.

GV is a good suggestion but I am tech challenged and just relied on the old tried and true phone. If it wasn't that it would be something else.

Short visits Are probably the hardest to detect because most of us have reasons to be off the radar for a few hours here and there. What made my affair so real were the nights together. We would go out for dinner, eat in, make love, then read together or watch TV like real people. It wasn't all about the hooker thing of racing into the notel, fucking our brains out, then going home to momma. That is a clear cut hooker / john scenario and is great if sex is all you are looking for. But in the end call it what it is anyway These relationships are call girl / john affairs. The blog at Seeking Arrangements is interesting if you have never gone on there. The girls protesteth too much about how they are not hookers even though they are accepting money in return for sex. I certainly don't like to think of my Baby as a hooker but she is still taking care of my needs in return for a generous allowance. So what is she? A wife? Haha.

[NiceGuy804]

I am CONSIDERING doing something, and can think of no better place to air it than this forum. I'm considering hiring a legitimate assistant with "Benefits for bonuses." Have any of you gentlemen tried this, and with what result?

[AliasSM]

Nando,

We are all just a phone call or misplaced receipt away from being in your shoes right now, so it's easy to sympthasize with your situation. My W of almost 40 years would already have me out of the house and be looking for the lawyer, so I try to be extra careful with my current roster of SBs. But it only takes one slip to screw it all up.

For others out there trying to stay under the W's radar, I agree with John that Google Voice is by far the best option. I was just out of the country with the W over the past few weeks and had to disable my cell due to no international plan. I was still able to stay in touch with my SBs through the hotel wireless connections and Google Voice. The txts were enough to keep me sane on what could have been a long week without SB contact.

I was even able to get a number assigned that was real close to my real cell number. It's so easy to use, my W has no idea what I am doing when I'm txting back and forth with the SB. Sometimes even in the car right beside her.

Stay safe and keep up the good posts all.

[John G Smith]

Hi Hernando, I feel you for and your situation. I'm a bit younger than some of you guys, so it's making me think if I should push for a divorce sooner than later as painful as it might be. Right now, I'm just 7-12 years older than most of the SBs I meet. So if I got E-involved, it would be possible to have a real long-term serious relationship with a PYT because the age and cultural gap isn't insurmountable. In certain other countries, women actually seek out much older men for their financial stability and wisdom. But here in America, a 10-15 year age gap is basically the absolute max many women will accept for a legit long-term relationship. Again the more money you have, the more lavish your lifestyle, the more you'll be able to push the age gap, but it ends up becoming socially awkward in our society.

Anyway I hope you pull through Hernando. But I got a question for you, how did you manage two overnights per week with your SB without immediately raising flags with your SO? Were you sneaking out and coming back before your SO knew you were gone? The reason I ask is that I sometimes go out at night as well but I'm usually never gone for more than a couple of hours. Also I already established a routine of taking night-time drives to clear my mind (I enjoy driving on southern California freeways when they are completely empty).

But since I work at home, it's really hard for me to be gone for more than a couple of hours without it being noticed. So I'm always looking for ways to extend my "free-time", though I like to always have an alibi, so if I do get the dreaded "where are you?" I can explain it easily and get back to the house within a reasonable time.

Also ditch the secret phone and get Google Voice. You can forward your GV calls / txt to your regular phone, but the calls don't show up as regular numbers on your bill. You can also easily stop forwarding calls / txt to your phone, so you can control when you're available for contact. But my favorite feature is being able to txt through the GV website. I can literally txt with my SB for hours, but it just looks like I'm making a forum post or something. Way better than having my SO see me txting on the phone or having to sneak into the bathroom all the time. And finally, you can easily block numbers / contacts. If you have a Nando1 harassing you, you can just block them without having to get a totally new number. GV is heaven sent for SDs. That said, it does take a little time to get a full handle of the GV phone app and settings. You do need to be careful because if you're careless you could accidentally call your SO with your GV number. That's pretty much the only way you'll get caught because there isn't a physical GV phone for your SO to find. And at the first hint of trouble, you can just erase your entire GV info with their webtool.

[Golfcart]

Edit Delete The take home message that I have for you guys (and girl) is nothing that many of you haven't already espoused and followed, but sensitive emotional types like me and several others (Scotty, Golf) want to have a love relationship and watch out what you wish for. Edit Delete

Scott and I see eye to eye on a lot of things but not on this one. Scott is certainly in Nando's camp, or the camp Nando was in before being disappointed recently, and Scott may still be there, although that is not totally clear at this point, we may hear more from Scott about this, but I've written extensively from the start that emotional attachment in the context of pay for play is ill advised. I've also written extensively that a pay for play relationship is doomed and has no chance where there is a father / daughter or father / grandaughter age difference. I used the illustration that when she has to look forward 30 or 40 years to see us she sees what we would see were we to look at a woman 30 or 40 years our senior. I don't think I have posted this but we also need to stay on the same side of the railroad tracks when it comes to cultural differences. There are bounaries money cannot cross. It's all about Mother Nature.

[Hernando]

Hi Friends.old and new!

Well, I have been on a seriously depressing ride since I was outed 2 months ago. To recap, W found my secret phone and in order to avoid an atomic meltdown I had to "fess up".well as much as I had to to get her to back down from the uber investigation that was looming. I was (am) seriously in love with my 24 yr old HCB and continued to see her against all odds of success for the long haul. I am on the 15 th month of our biweekly affair and alas it came to an end last night. My W has been amazingly willing to try to work things out and in spite of my reluctance to work on the marriage she has so far been a serious pain (understandable) to live with. Last night I had an overnight with my Baby and halfway through festivities got a call and texts with the dreaded "where are you ", etc. I had "THE TALK" with my Baby about her intentions hoping that she has changed her mind and now can't see life without me, but guess what? She cried buckets but said that I am just too old for her (40 yrs) and she just can't see us going the distance. I get it although she provides me with such an amazing real life love interaction that I truly believe.as she says.that she does love me but is a lot more practical than I re: the future. I am heart broken. But.life goes on and I will slowly feel less pain as the months pass. I can only imagine what my W is feeling so turn about is fair play I guess.

SO.The take home message that I have for you guys (and girl) is nothing that many of you haven't already espoused and followed, but sensitive emotional types like me and several others (Scotty, Golf) want to have a love relationship and watch out what you wish for. My emotional ties to my Baby led to my discovery since 2ce / weekly overnights are hard to hide for ever. A couple of hours here and there are so much easier to explain away.

1) don't become E-Involved

2) limit exposure to easily explainable hours

3) If you are looking for E- Involvement, especially for you unmarried guys date girls in an age range that is reasonable for a long term girlfriend. Actually, most of you don't want that anyway.

I don't know what the future holds for the survival of my marriage but I hope I can rejuvenate that feeling of caring and love for my W, for if I can't I will divorce and move on. The problem is.I no longer find 40 plus yr old women attractive so in order to get 20 somethings to date you have to start through the SD sites. I got very lucky with my Baby in getting an amazingly beautiful, smart, educated, , non greedy girl. We had a wonderful loving relationship that was real for over 15 months, and I consider myself lucky to have experienced what many never do. She wasn't the best in bed compared to many in my multifucking days but it showed me that love conquers all and that it is the caring for that person that makes the difference.

Good luck all and guard that secret phone Nando

[Golfcart]

You raise some fair points.

Both parties have to worry about those 2-5% who are psychos. I guess my point is that beyond the respective "psycho" demographics, a SD is more at risk even with a "normal" SB. In a moment of anger or desperation even a "normal" SB could cause major havoc to a SD by calling or showing up at his place or business. One phone call to a SD's house and a SB could destroy them. Whereas I couldn't cause that amount of personal destruction to my SB even if I knew all her personal information. Could I cause her some embarrassment? Sure, but nothing on the level of a divorce, losing half the assets, losing custody of kids, and being shunned by family and friends.

So I agree during the initial vetting phase, a SB has to be very careful for safety reasons and make sure the pot isn't a psycho. But once it's clear both parties aren't in the psycho demographic, the risk swings heavily back onto the SD, IMO. It's why it's imperative for the SD to always try to end the arrangement on good terms. Even a "normal" SB who leaves the arrangement angry or desperate is a major liability. So by knowing some of her personal information, it might allow us to head off a bad situation before it gets worse.

John, I agree with you about how things ought to be. The world turns according to how things are. The more times you meet the more opportunity there is for you to become a made man. I think the risk is a geometric progression. That second time doubles the risk, the third time triples the risk, however the math works out with a multiplier, you get the point. It takes one piece of paper from a transaction at dinner or whatever. One license plate. Something dropped on the floor. Maybe just a pretty face appearing to the hotel desk clerk asking for a favor. If she wants to put it together, if she is curious and smart, if she has a plan or if she gets mad she will. With the internet and a little information this isn't rocket surgery.

[John G Smith]

Sorry, but if you want my full name and information then I want yours. While yes, an SD has a lot to loose, my safety is of the utmost importance and I will NOT jeopardize it. To prove someone is stalking you is not an easy thing. And that says a fake SD with very bad intentions is going to be placated at just stalking a girl and that she'll actually have a chance to contact the police instead of being raped, or worse.

While yes, there needs to be trust between an SD and SB I think it's perfectly fine for it to be gained simultaneously. As you build trust between each other, you can reveal more. Sorry, but I think requiring information you're not willing to divulge yourself just makes you a bit of a hypocrite. The fact is that we both are at extreme risk and neither is greater than the other.

Mandy

You raise some fair points.

Both parties have to worry about those 2-5% who are psychos. I guess my point is that beyond the respective "psycho" demographics, a SD is more at risk even with a "normal" SB. In a moment of anger or desperation even a "normal" SB could cause major havoc to a SD by calling or showing up at his place or business. One phone call to a SD's house and a SB could destroy them. Whereas I couldn't cause that amount of personal destruction to my SB even if I knew all her personal information. Could I cause her some embarrassment? Sure, but nothing on the level of a divorce, losing half the assets, losing custody of kids, and being shunned by family and friends.

So I agree during the initial vetting phase, a SB has to be very careful for safety reasons and make sure the pot isn't a psycho. But once it's clear both parties aren't in the psycho demographic, the risk swings heavily back onto the SD, IMO. It's why it's imperative for the SD to always try to end the arrangement on good terms. Even a "normal" SB who leaves the arrangement angry or desperate is a major liability. So by knowing some of her personal information, it might allow us to head off a bad situation before it gets worse.

[John G Smith]

With ATF, I was totally pussy whipped, so I occasionally advanced funds. She was good about repaying in kind until recently. I have been assured of repayment on her most recent advance, though it remains to be seen whether she will come through.

Having learned my lesson the hard way, I am reluctant to do it again for her or anyone else. My mantra is don't loan it unless you can afford to lose it. Consider it a gift (but don't tell her that!) from the outset. Repayment is then a pleasant surprise.

More recently, I have grown a pair and told other girls,"Sorry. Can't help out that way, but I'm happy to meet for some private fun time if you want." That separates the players from the mere pretenders.

I actually just recently gave a pot SB some funds to move back to my area from her parents. We've been corresponding for a couple of months and got along pretty well, but we never met. Then she recently went to move back with her parents and found herself in an abusive situation. She txt'ed me and she explained the situation somewhat. She didn't come out and directly ask for financial help, but clearly I could tell that was the goal of her contacting me. However, after hearing the situation I still offered to help her move out.

Some people might say I'm a sucker. A couple of things though: Since I had access to her Facebook page, I was able to verify certain elements of her story. For example, she clearly was getting depressed based off what she was posting and her friend's were also wondering what was going on. Also, since I had access to her FB page, I'd know if she really moved back or not.

But the main thing like Joe said, I basically considered the financial help a "gift". She promised to meet up with me when she got back in town, but my main concern was just her moving out. As long as she moved out, it was money well spent. And even if she didn't move out, I could afford to lose that money. If she ends up "repaying" me at some point that's great, but that wasn't the motivation for me this situation.

Clearly I'm not going to make it a habit to give money to women I've never met. But let's be honest, we've wasted a lot of money on this lifestyle. Hotels and gas on no-shows. Multiple M&Gs that end up never going anywhere and etc. Money completely down the toilet. So on the rare occasion depending on the situation, I may be willing to gamble a loss if it means truly helping out another human being. But obviously I have to be able to verify certain details and it's just a one-off help. If they keep hitting me up without any "repayment" toward their debt, then I'll cut-off communication.

As for unscheduled sugar request with my actual SB, yeah I'd be very careful with those. It's very easy to end up setting a routine by making it acceptable for the SB to make unscheduled sugar requests even for non-emergencies. But if it truly is an emergency and you make it clear this is the exception and not the rule, then it's really up to you.

A part of me feels a true SD should be able to help out his SB in emergencies without immediate sugar. But it's also true, some SBs can easily start harassing and taking advantage of their SD if they feel they can regularly get something for nothing.

[Member #5055]

From the title, you might think I was talking about if SBs are escorts, but I am not. This is the reverse in fact.

Kimikoamore. Escortfiles com is a new Asian girl who just advertised on the Av. She is moving to C'ville, and is looking for clients in C'ville and Richmond. Claims to have a profession. Her in-call $ is more than her out-call $ (due to the additional cost of a high class hotel). Her rates are VERY high.

I almost look at her as more of an SB, and wonder if she should be told she is should revise her marketing plan.

Take a look at her site and see if you agree. Anybody seen her fishing on any of the SB sites already?

GW