My Suggestions. Rules For BackPage

Look, bottom line is that paying for a rubdown, dancing, stripping or some other service is NOT illegal. You can pay a girl to read Emily Dickinson to you if you want. If that heats you up. If you want to talk to all of your potential dates about illegal things that include "sex acts for money," then hey, have at it! Yeah, in those cases, you would have said whatever LE needs you to say in order to make an arrest, so look to end up on the evening news. But if you have an agreement with your date for a rub or dancing then what happens after that might be hard to prove was paid for.

Not that I have omnipotent observations but. Me thinks the decoy / cop is going to try to get you to say some form of "sex for money" in their presence. Often there are two girls in the room which IMHO is a red flag for a couple of reasons. Also assume that the room is bugged. Have not seen cases where phone conversations or emails were used as the "proof" for solicitation without the dude offering "sex for money" in person. Connecting a 'voice on a phone,' a phone number or emails with the live person standing in the room would require the kind of time (warrants, subpoena) that just aren't worth it for a misdemeanor. But hey, call or text them from your cell phone registered in your name and by all means carry that phone into the date! NOT!

So here are my 22 Rules for Dating off BP? Can you take short cuts from all this work? Sure and you can become a statistic too.

1) Look at the pics. If it is too good to be true (TGTBT), then it probably is. Top pros with websites and Eros level prices are usually the exception.

2) Check out the images. Use Tineye or Google Image.

3) What do the pictures tell you? Traveler? Regular poster? Fake pictures?

4) Fake pictures are ones that are borrowed from another website. Fake pics are also pro level shots "altered" to look amateur like. If you can't tell the difference. Back off and watch the posts for 3-months until your eye is trained.

5) Travelers, while they maybe legit and good dates can tend to have low incentive to provide a great date under the hit & run philosophy. If your not looking for repeat clients because your gone in a week, then level of service isn't of concern. Also watch for Vegas and NV area codes! You want to avoid the hardcore pro girls who know how to separate you from your hard earned cash.

6) Check the girl's number with a search engine or one of the Escort Phone number search sites. Ibid all of the above.

7) Check for reviews of the girl on USA, TER or other review type sites.

8) NEVER call a potential date from your regular cell phone that has your name, address, etc, attached to it!

8) Have a Google Voice account set up. USE IT!

9) Use a burner or hobby phone with the GV.

10) Don't buy a hobby phone with a credit card, ATM card or debit card, don't set it up with your name, address, etc.

11) When contacting the girl, be polite, know your spending limits.

12) Ask the girl about the value of her time for a massage, rubdown, dancing or reading poetry to you!

13) NEVER ask about specific acts and / or the cost of such.

14) Any girl that says it is $100 for a s*ck & f*ck is breaking the law and is either a cop or is incredibly ignorant. I'd avoid both.

15) If meeting a girl at a hotel / motel get there well in advance and do some recon. See a bunch of unmarked cars in the lot? Any vans with tinted windows and people inside? Any buses or meat packing style trucks around? When approaching the room what does one hear in the hallway from the other rooms. Bunch of cops shooting the breeze, interrogating the last suspect? What happens if you walk past the door and return a few minutes later?

16) When entering the room. Is there more than one girl there? Better ask about that right away. Consider leaving.

17) Check the rest of the room or suite for other people. More than just the girl is a red flag. Check for an unlocked adjoining door.

18) When closing the door, add the security chain or throw the safety bar. Can't imagine a cop allowing them self to be cut-off from outside help like that.

19) Ask to do the cop check thing and do a verbal play-by-play! Say, "Oh yer pussy feels so wet", or "Oh your hand on my hard di*ck feels nice!" If the prosecutor is going to use a tape to nab you, might as well get embarrassing evidence included.

20) Never take anything into the date that you don't want to loose or have used against you. Suggest carrying just the Poetry Reading Fee, your copy of Emily Dickinson and a car key. Period. No cell phones, no wads of cash, no expensive jewelry, no high-priced watches, etc.

21) NEVER TALK SEX FOR MONEY! Never hand the money to the girl! Lay it on a table, TV, counter, etc, away from the girl with NO comment. You can look at it, just do not talk about it. Some slick ways to do this is have it in an envelop with the words, "fee for reading poetry" written on it. You can use the bathroom and leave it in there and then ask the girl to check something in the bathroom for you.

22) If she makes statements about sex for money, before she is fully naked and holding yer Johnson, say "I have no idea what your talking about, I came for a rub, dancing, poetry reading and turn and leave.

Can you follow all of these rules and still get arrested? Sure. Anything can happen. But if you follow these rules the chances of anything sticking are pretty darn slim.

Play safe, play knowledgeable.

Happy hunting!

[i]these are just the best I could come up with. I hope others with more experience will add to the list[/i]

[QUOTE=CephlapodLove;2394419]Look, bottom line is that paying for a rubdown, dancing, stripping or some other service is NOT illegal. You can pay a girl to read Emily Dickinson to you if you want. If that heats you up. If you want to talk to all of your potential dates about illegal things that include "sex acts for money," then hey, have at it! Yeah, in those cases, you would have said whatever LE needs you to say in order to make an arrest, so look to end up on the evening news. But if you have an agreement with your date for a rub or dancing then what happens after that might be hard to prove was paid for.

Not that I have omnipotent observations but. Me thinks the decoy / cop is going to try to get you to say some form of "sex for money" in their presence. Often there are two girls in the room which IMHO is a red flag for a couple of reasons. Also assume that the room is bugged. Have not seen cases where phone conversations or emails were used as the "proof" for solicitation without the dude offering "sex for money" in person. Connecting a 'voice on a phone,' a phone number or emails with the live person standing in the room would require the kind of time (warrants, subpoena) that just aren't worth it for a misdemeanor. But hey, call or text them from your cell phone registered in your name and by all means carry that phone into the date! NOT!

So here are my 22 Rules for Dating off BP? Can you take short cuts from all this work? Sure and you can become a statistic too.

1) Look at the pics. If it is too good to be true (TGTBT), then it probably is. Top pros with websites and Eros level prices are usually the exception.

2) Check out the images. Use Tineye or Google Image.

3) What do the pictures tell you? Traveler? Regular poster? Fake pictures?

4) Fake pictures are ones that are borrowed from another website. Fake pics are also pro level shots "altered" to look amateur like. If you can't tell the difference. Back off and watch the posts for 3-months until your eye is trained.

5) Travelers, while they maybe legit and good dates can tend to have low incentive to provide a great date under the hit & run philosophy. If your not looking for repeat clients because your gone in a week, then level of service isn't of concern. Also watch for Vegas and NV area codes! You want to avoid the hardcore pro girls who know how to separate you from your hard earned cash.

6) Check the girl's number with a search engine or one of the Escort Phone number search sites. Ibid all of the above.

7) Check for reviews of the girl on USA, TER or other review type sites.

8) NEVER call a potential date from your regular cell phone that has your name, address, etc, attached to it!

8) Have a Google Voice account set up. USE IT!

9) Use a burner or hobby phone with the GV.

10) Don't buy a hobby phone with a credit card, ATM card or debit card, don't set it up with your name, address, etc.

11) When contacting the girl, be polite, know your spending limits.

12) Ask the girl about the value of her time for a massage, rubdown, dancing or reading poetry to you!

13) NEVER ask about specific acts and / or the cost of such.

14) Any girl that says it is $100 for a s*ck & f*ck is breaking the law and is either a cop or is incredibly ignorant. I'd avoid both.

15) If meeting a girl at a hotel / motel get there well in advance and do some recon. See a bunch of unmarked cars in the lot? Any vans with tinted windows and people inside? Any buses or meat packing style trucks around? When approaching the room what does one hear in the hallway from the other rooms. Bunch of cops shooting the breeze, interrogating the last suspect? What happens if you walk past the door and return a few minutes later?

16) When entering the room. Is there more than one girl there? Better ask about that right away. Consider leaving.

17) Check the rest of the room or suite for other people. More than just the girl is a red flag. Check for an unlocked adjoining door.

18) When closing the door, add the security chain or throw the safety bar. Can't imagine a cop allowing them self to be cut-off from outside help like that.

19) Ask to do the cop check thing and do a verbal play-by-play! Say, "Oh yer pussy feels so wet", or "Oh your hand on my hard di*ck feels nice!" If the prosecutor is going to use a tape to nab you, might as well get embarrassing evidence included.

20) Never take anything into the date that you don't want to loose or have used against you. Suggest carrying just the Poetry Reading Fee, your copy of Emily Dickinson and a car key. Period. No cell phones, no wads of cash, no expensive jewelry, no high-priced watches, etc.

21) NEVER TALK SEX FOR MONEY! Never hand the money to the girl! Lay it on a table, TV, counter, etc, away from the girl with NO comment. You can look at it, just do not talk about it. Some slick ways to do this is have it in an envelop with the words, "fee for reading poetry" written on it. You can use the bathroom and leave it in there and then ask the girl to check something in the bathroom for you.

22) If she makes statements about sex for money, before she is fully naked and holding yer Johnson, say "I have no idea what your talking about, I came for a rub, dancing, poetry reading and turn and leave.

Can you follow all of these rules and still get arrested? Sure. Anything can happen. But if you follow these rules the chances of anything sticking are pretty darn slim.

Play safe, play knowledgeable.

Happy hunting!

[i]these are just the best I could come up with. I hope others with more experience will add to the list[/i][/QUOTE]I would add to rule 7 if you only see one or two reviews from hobbiests who have not posted a lot of before they should be suspect.

Personally if there are not at least 5 reviews I move on.

Not so much for BP but other sites that have weekly and monthly ads those girls tend to be less here today gone tomorrow and don't be surprised to find them posted on both type of sites often with rates being lower on BP so if asked where did you find my number say BP.

I would add, with the smaller towns (example: Reading or Allentown PA as compared to Philly or Pitt) you should try and monitor the site for a month or two and get to see who the local regulars are. Remember most law enforcement stings take months to pull off so you should do the same research.

""15) If meeting a girl at a hotel / motel get there well in advance and do some recon. See a bunch of unmarked cars in the lot? Any vans with tinted windows and people inside? Any buses or meat packing style trucks around? When approaching the room what does one hear in the hallway from the other rooms. Bunch of cops shooting the breeze, interrogating the last suspect? What happens if you walk past the door and return a few minutes later?

This is the most important point when meeting at hotel and has saved me twice, I would add to it: If possible don't even park at the hotel. Most of the hook-ups I've done take 2 calls the first she tells you what hotel then tells you to call when you arrive to get room number. One time in Aberdeen I called and told her I would be about 30 min to get there I was there in about 15 and cursed the hotel lot, all looked good so I went to the shopping center next store and made the second call from a Fastfood joint she asked wher I was parked and then told me rm# and as I watched out the window I saw 2 unmarked cars circle the hotel (they came from the shopping ctr across street) they circled the hotel twice and at one point stopped a guy that was walking and talkin on cell phone. Similar thing happened in Reading where the paddy wagon and unmarked car was in a home depot lot across from hotel. RECON is key and not just the hotel lot, any lot that is visible of the rooms.

I echo all of the good advice so far. Some emphasis areas from my experience:

1. Except in dire straits, I NEVER do an incall for the reasons other guys have articulated. If you watch the evening news about stings, they almost always involve an incall set-up at a hotel where the cops rent two adjacent rooms with an interior suite door. If you find a girl who does outcall, it's a lot less risky because the cops aren't going to put themselves at risk for a possible set-up themselves. It's also an economy of scale. If they set up an outcall sting, they get one guy. If they set up an incall sting, they can get a dozen on a given night.

2. Absolutely agree with checking for a track record on as many sites as you can check. I'm also very cautious about ads with area codes not from the local area.

3. For those times when I have done incalls, if possible, I will leave my car key in a safe place outside -- perhaps in a wheel well or on top of a tire. These days, I have an emergency key in a magnetic storage box. After verifying that it's still there, I sometimes even lock my regular keys in the car.

4. I'm also cautious about traveling girls, even those well-reviewed with a good track record. I saw a couple a while back. In each case, I showed up to the hotel and, as I was walking to her room in the middle of the day, I realized that I was sticking out like a sore thumb because every other hotel guest was either being a tourist or at work. A traveling girl will tend to see several guys a day. Guys coming & going from her room do not go unnoticed by the hotel staff, at the very least by the maid staff who are out in force during the afternoon.

Thanks to those who have posted so far!

I think what this demonstrates is that there are various ways to manage hobbying risk and everyone has their own methods and levels of what constitutes "acceptable risk. ".

For example, sticking with girls that are only well reviewed certainly is a way to reduce risk. Girls that are "in business" and value their reputation are less likely to provide a bad date or run a rip-off scheme. Of course, like anything it isn't 100% as everyone has a bad day and often styles don't match, so YMMV. However, someone has to be "first" with a new or unreviewed girl, so that presents higher levels of risk. Be thankful, grateful & complimentary to the dudes who step up to the plate and go "first!" They have higher risk tolerance or employ additional measures to manage that risk.

But looking for a girl's posts elsewhere and comparing rates is an excellent idea! This hobby is not like buying fruit at a fruit stand. One can usually negotiate the price here. It is the dudes that pay the first (High?) price that drives the curve up. It never hurts to ask politely if she will take XX off her price (10%-20%) especially if she is WAY above others on BP and not as attractive. Paying list is crazy, so good suggestion to look for lower prices elsewhere- usually means the price is "fluid. ".

Important point - To manage risk at an incall date make sure one scopes out the lot and other lots visible to it, before making a move to the room! This means [b]get to the date early[/b] enough to look around as much as needed. Recon, recon, recon! And of course in such a higher risk situation, no cell phone, GV number and don't talk $$ for sex.

But another point is correct, in most jurisdictions, solicitation is a misdemeanor and thus not worthy of the expenditure of large amounts unless they can demonstrate several busts. So yeah, monger stings are incall dates. [i]{Also, they like to have Media tag along for the deterrence this provides. }[/i] Avoiding incalls altogether is one method of risk management. Techniques discussed here, provide alternative methods of risk management. Doing nothing suggested and bumbling along, whether consciously or not, is of course another type of decision of how to manage risk.

I agree with paying heed to area codes as a way to I'd out of towners. However, this is something that may require some rethink in the future. First with cell phones being ubiquitous and portability of numbers being the rule (law?) I have found many girls, who moved legitimately to an area, kept their out of town phone number. Also with the spread of Google Voice and cellphone apps, it is easy for a traveling girl to post a number that looks local. So a local number is no indication she isn't a traveler. This is where further investigation of the number and the girl comes in handy.

As far as keys go - YES! I would take the car key with me to the room, but NOT house, office or other keys. [i]Just saw a report from a dude where the pimp came in the room during the date and the girl pushed him into the bathroom to hide while the money was exchanged, So his pants and other valuables were there where the pimp could have riffled through them.[/i] I never take the house keys with me. Also, I'm not driving at the point I'm headed to her room and thus don't need a wallet. I do like the magnetic key holder idea as long as no one sees you placing it. So that is a good way to manage risk. Just take the poetry reading fee with you and nothing else!

So good suggestions on methods of managing risk in the hobby!

[I]Wonder if there are more out there?[/I]

Great thread and some excellent rules so far!

Another rule I like to keep in mind is that if the most recent review was more than a month or two ago, ie the lady took a break and came back or hasn't had any recent reviews for whatever reason (perhaps because her performance has slumped), you almost need to treat her as if she is a new lady with no reviews. That's because a lot can change in 6-12 months. I've seen some ladies lose so much weight in 6 months that it changes their entire appearance. Also, they could have developed habits during their absence that now make them a lot less reliable than they used to be. Finally, there's a chance that in order lighten their own punishment they've partnered with LE to help them nab a few unsuspecting johns (it's rare but it does happen).

One other thing, I tend to favor incalls at homes or apartments as opposed to motels or hotels. Not sure when was the last time I heard of a sting being run out of a home. On the other hand, you have to watch for nosy or irate neighbors and it's hard to check a large home or apartment for a pimp or bf hiding somewhere. And yet I feel that few ladies would be willing to take risks at their place of residence, unless, of course, it's a trap house, in which case all bets are off. I'd be interested in thoughts on this from other experienced members.

Finally, I try not to do all of my hobbying in the same city, area or town. I don't see any advantages to becoming a familiar face or license plate. It does, however, require a higher investment of time and gas.

One question. What's the best place on a car to place a magnetic key box? And should I worry that a thief might find it?

[QUOTE=CoralSands;2425901]I would add to rule 7 if you only see one or two reviews from hobbiests who have not posted a lot of before they should be suspect.

Personally if there are not at least 5 reviews I move on.

Not so much for BP but other sites that have weekly and monthly ads those girls tend to be less here today gone tomorrow and don't be surprised to find them posted on both type of sites often with rates being lower on BP so if asked where did you find my number say BP.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=PaulGlenlivet;2669619]

One question. What's the best place on a car to place a magnetic key box? And should I worry that a thief might find it?[/QUOTE]I hate this answer because it isn't specific, but - it depends on your ride. If you have a fiberglass Vette or one of the new all Aluminum trucks, finding some iron for the magnet to stick to might be problematic!

Here are the things I considered:

1) Needs to be in a place where one can get it in a hurry.

2) Retrieving the magnetic holder can't be obvious, need to look like you are checking a tire or something under the car.

3) Don't leave it easily visible that a car guy walking by might notice.

4) Don't roll up to a girl's room, park out front, and then get out and place the key holder.

5) Don't forget and leave the magnetic holder in place all of the time.

5) Make it part of your routine to stop at a gas station and hide the key holder several blocks BEFORE her place. Messing with your car at a gas station is less obvious than at the convenience store. Auto parts store might be good too, since a lot of repairs happen there!

A recent experience of a girl trying to rip me off, leads me to add Rule #23 to the list.

23. [B]NEVER pay up front![/B] By this I mean never put the money in the girls control until she has finished the poetry reading! If she is coming to you, she can pay the driver on the way home! Pay him now and what incentive does he have to stick around? It makes zero sense. Girls who have been ripped off before often want to see that you have the money before they will read. This is a distrusting soul so beware. That distrust can bleed over into other areas of the date.

When I have been asked for the money, I am glad to show them that I have the Poetry Reading Fee. I'll fan the bills out so she can count them while maintaining a firm grip. I watch for her grabbing for the fee. (she does that and I am gone) That usually satisfies most girls. Then the fee goes back in my pocket until the last Sonnet is verbalized. For others, I might lay the fee out in the open, on a TV, bed stand, chair etc. , with the provision that she gets the fee once the reading is over. IN ADDITION I make sure I remain between her and the fee at all times. So it makes sense to place the fee closer to the door than to the bathroom. She might legitimately head to the Bathroom during the date, but heading the other direction can only be for the cash. Shoot, once I actually placed the fee on the floor right next to the door after I secured the safety bar.

I had one girl, a former stripper, insist that I pay her up front. I tried showing her the money, laying it out and a few other things. When that didn't work, I gathered myself up and headed out the door. (doing that usually injects a bunch of reason in the girl) Oh sure in this extreme case she was arguing with me for 15-minutes about paying up front. Once I was in the car and turning the key, she realized she was going to get nothing, she relented. But the bottom line is. If you are NOT willing to walk away, you can become a victim. Always be willing to walk if she isn't reasonable! Anyone doing a scam is going to insist you play her game, refuse & walk away and she out games herself.

Finally. Any interjection of a third party into things is the recipe for disaster. The girl doesn't need to pay the baby sitter up front, the driver before she is returned home, give her friend money for groceries or pay for the room first. All of these are set ups for possible scams. Once the money leaves your control, you have no control over the date and are vulnerable to a scam.

Had some girl tell me her process was to give the money paid up front to her friend, since she had been ripped off before. I didn't bite and she tried every way possible to get me to pay something up front. In this case, I was picking her up for a date. Oh sure, she promised to leave her phone, jewelry or something else of value as collateral so that she would come back after handing her friend the money. Problem is this is a bad trade. Usually what is left as "collateral" turns out to be worthless junk. A $20 cellphone, costume jewelry, etc. She leaves a phone and if she reports it stolen and it gets locked. What value is it? So the "leaving collateral" is a trade: she is trading up and you are trading down.

Also in the pick the girl up scenario. If you pay her up front, she can jump out of the car at the first stop sign or traffic light. Even worse for you is if she does that and screams rape or that you beat her. Her having the fee up front and the BF can bust in the room or make a scene where you want to leave as fast as possible. Sure these are extreme cases, but anyone insisting on being paid up front is more likely to exhibit those behaviors. Don't play this game, just don't pay up front!

[i]Extreme example of a "pay up front" scam that was attempted on me recently! Don't be a victim![/I]
Post #75 here:
[url]http://www.usasexguide.info/forum/showthread.php?7282-Craigslist-Reviews&p=2739163&viewfull=1#post2739163[/url]

I never ever pay upfront anymore. I did it once and got ripped off. She wants money upfront I walk out. I don't care how good her reviews are. Money stays with me out of her sight. No negotiating on this. Even with my trusted providers I always pay after the session.

[QUOTE=CephlapodLove;2740120]A recent experience of a girl trying to rip me off, leads me to add Rule #23 to the list.

23. [B]NEVER pay up front![/B] By this I mean never put the money in the girls control until she has finished the poetry reading! If she is coming to you, she can pay the driver on the way home! Pay him now and what incentive does he have to stick around? It makes zero sense. Girls who have been ripped off before often want to see that you have the money before they will read. This is a distrusting soul so beware. That distrust can bleed over into other areas of the date.

When I have been asked for the money, I am glad to show them that I have the Poetry Reading Fee. I'll fan the bills out so she can count them while maintaining a firm grip. I watch for her grabbing for the fee. (she does that and I am gone) That usually satisfies most girls. Then the fee goes back in my pocket until the last Sonnet is verbalized. For others, I might lay the fee out in the open, on a TV, bed stand, chair etc. , with the provision that she gets the fee once the reading is over. IN ADDITION I make sure I remain between her and the fee at all times. So it makes sense to place the fee closer to the door than to the bathroom. She might legitimately head to the Bathroom during the date, but heading the other direction can only be for the cash. Shoot, once I actually placed the fee on the floor right next to the door after I secured the safety bar.

I had one girl, a former stripper, insist that I pay her up front. I tried showing her the money, laying it out and a few other things. When that didn't work, I gathered myself up and headed out the door. (doing that usually injects a bunch of reason in the girl) Oh sure in this extreme case she was arguing with me for 15-minutes about paying up front. Once I was in the car and turning the key, she realized she was going to get nothing, she relented. But the bottom line is. If you are NOT willing to walk away, you can become a victim. Always be willing to walk if she isn't reasonable! Anyone doing a scam is going to insist you play her game, refuse & walk away and she out games herself.

Finally. Any interjection of a third party into things is the recipe for disaster. The girl doesn't need to pay the baby sitter up front, the driver before she is returned home, give her friend money for groceries or pay for the room first. All of these are set ups for possible scams. Once the money leaves your control, you have no control over the date and are vulnerable to a scam.

Had some girl tell me her process was to give the money paid up front to her friend, since she had been ripped off before. I didn't bite and she tried every way possible to get me to pay something up front. In this case, I was picking her up for a date. Oh sure, she promised to leave her phone, jewelry or something else of value as collateral so that she would come back after handing her friend the money. Problem is this is a bad trade. Usually what is left as "collateral" turns out to be worthless junk. A $20 cellphone, costume jewelry, etc. She leaves a phone and if she reports it stolen and it gets locked. What value is it? So the "leaving collateral" is a trade: she is trading up and you are trading down.

Also in the pick the girl up scenario. If you pay her up front, she can jump out of the car at the first stop sign or traffic light. Even worse for you is if she does that and screams rape or that you beat her. Her having the fee up front and the BF can bust in the room or make a scene where you want to leave as fast as possible. Sure these are extreme cases, but anyone insisting on being paid up front is more likely to exhibit those behaviors. Don't play this game, just don't pay up front!

[i]Extreme example of a "pay up front" scam that was attempted on me recently! Don't be a victim![/I]
Post #75 here:
[url]http://www.usasexguide.info/forum/showthread.php?7282-Craigslist-Reviews&p=2739163&viewfull=1#post2739163[/url][/QUOTE]I agree with you whole heartily on not paying upfront because I have got caught trading down. She told me about why she needed to drop the money off and she would leave her purse with me and I agreed. I was thinking she make have something important in the purse such as a wallet with I'd or important paper but after she did not return and I looked in the purse which contained some lip stick and make-up from the dollar store and some tissue. One more important issue is I could not ride around or go home with a purse in my car for my significant other to questioned me on who do the purse belong. So, I ended up throwing it out the car. On most trades you are going to get the short end.

Keep it safe.

I see some strong reactions to Rule #23 and get it! Nothing stings more than being cranked up and ready and thinking one has release in sight. Only to have that dashed with a rip-off. When it happens it s*cks! Big Time!

But with every bad experience comes a learning opportunity. It is good to be firm with the girls on not paying upfront. AND it is always good to be prepared, willing and able to walk away in the face of danger or other indications of the date not going well. IF you can't walk away, even though your hanging a severe case of blue b@lls, you are going to find trouble.

But there are some techniques one can use or try if the date is worth continuing.

Remember- usually a girl that wants $ up front is either a rip-off artist or a girl that has been ripped-off herself and is very cautious. The fist type is never going to be satisfied and one is right to walk away from her. The second, needs some reassurances: and providing those reassurances usually helps resolve the situation in a favorable light.

So when I have been asked for money up front, I show them that I have the Poetry Reading Fee. I'll fan the bills out so she can count them while maintaining a firm grip. [I]I watch for her grabbing for the fee. (she does that and I am gone)[/I] That usually satisfies most girls. Then the fee goes back in my pocket until the last Sonnet is verbalized.

For others, I might lay the fee out in the open, on a TV, bed stand, chair etc. , with the provision that she gets the fee once the reading is over. IN ADDITION [B] I make sure I remain between her and the fee at all times.[/B].

What you are looking to do is reassure her that you aren't going to rip her off. She sees the cash, she is cool that you have it and will give it to her. Show that you are legit and not a hard azz and she'll never look at the fee again until the Sonnets are read.

Maybe there are other ways to play this?

[QUOTE=CephlapodLove;2781094]I see some strong reactions to Rule #23 and get it! Nothing stings more than being cranked up and ready and thinking one has release in sight. Only to have that dashed with a rip-off. When it happens it s*cks! Big Time!

But with every bad experience comes a learning opportunity. It is good to be firm with the girls on not paying upfront. AND it is always good to be prepared, willing and able to walk away in the face of danger or other indications of the date not going well. IF you can't walk away, even though your hanging a severe case of blue b@lls, you are going to find trouble.

But there are some techniques one can use or try if the date is worth continuing.

Remember- usually a girl that wants $ up front is either a rip-off artist or a girl that has been ripped-off herself and is very cautious. The fist type is never going to be satisfied and one is right to walk away from her. The second, needs some reassurances: and providing those reassurances usually helps resolve the situation in a favorable light.

So when I have been asked for money up front, I show them that I have the Poetry Reading Fee. I'll fan the bills out so she can count them while maintaining a firm grip. [I]I watch for her grabbing for the fee. (she does that and I am gone)[/I] That usually satisfies most girls. Then the fee goes back in my pocket until the last Sonnet is verbalized.

For others, I might lay the fee out in the open, on a TV, bed stand, chair etc. , with the provision that she gets the fee once the reading is over. IN ADDITION [B] I make sure I remain between her and the fee at all times.[/B].

What you are looking to do is reassure her that you aren't going to rip her off. She sees the cash, she is cool that you have it and will give it to her. Show that you are legit and not a hard azz and she'll never look at the fee again until the Sonnets are read.

Maybe there are other ways to play this?[/QUOTE]If you make the deed too easy as in paying upfront or being too nice or showing too much cash then the motivation for the SW is gone. They say hmm I take $ 40 dollars for 2 minutes (no work) rather than $ 80 dollars for some work. One in hand in better than two in the Bush. I am able to walk, look away, or not do business as I am a little wiser in my day. Heh it happens to us all. Also the chick probably needed a bags of meds. Most likely the driver and car will be stopped and everyone will face discipline. You only lost $ 40 which is small compared to what could have happened.

I think that incalls are just too risky unless it is with a provider you know and trust thru having been with her multiple times. Any incall location can be set up by the cops to snag mongers easily with today's technology. IMHO, a motel room at $50 to $70 dollars is available pretty much any time across the country, and renting your own room is in every case going to be safer than a girl's incall. In fact, no undercover cop is going to let you pick her up somewhere and take her for a ride to a motel. And if you do pick up a girl with a room in mind and she starts asking you about money for services before she is in the car and you are rolling well away from the pick up spot, then what you have is a huge red flag waving in your face. The answer to such questions is "We are just going to find a nice place to have a cup of joe," and keep driving. If you pick up a girl to drive to a place, make sure you watch your 6, change direction and watch for any cars that seem to be following. Again, it would be, I think, extremely rare for a sting group to allow their bait to be drivin 100 yards down the road for anything. So the expense of a motel room is again I think well worth the decrease in risk. Lawyers are a lot more than $70.00.

Cheech.

[QUOTE=RonM;2740130]I never ever pay upfront anymore. I did it once and got ripped off. She wants money upfront I walk out. I don't care how good her reviews are. Money stays with me out of her sight. No negotiating on this. Even with my trusted providers I always pay after the session.[/QUOTE]Must not be to trusted if you do this with the trusted. Most of the established girls ask for donation to be left somewhere in view. If your dealing with the junkies and rip off artist then I can see that. Top line providers I follow the request for how donation is received. Once I become trusted by them if they relax the rules then that's fine too.

[QUOTE=Cheech1;2869315]I think that incalls are just too risky unless it is with a provider you know and trust thru having been with her multiple times. Any incall location can be set up by the cops to snag mongers easily with today's technology. IMHO, a motel room at $50 to $70 dollars is available pretty much any time across the country, and renting your own room is in every case going to be safer than a girl's incall. In fact, no undercover cop is going to let you pick her up somewhere and take her for a ride to a motel. And if you do pick up a girl with a room in mind and she starts asking you about money for services before she is in the car and you are rolling well away from the pick up spot, then what you have is a huge red flag waving in your face. The answer to such questions is "We are just going to find a nice place to have a cup of joe," and keep driving. If you pick up a girl to drive to a place, make sure you watch your 6, change direction and watch for any cars that seem to be following. Again, it would be, I think, extremely rare for a sting group to allow their bait to be drivin 100 yards down the road for anything. So the expense of a motel room is again I think well worth the decrease in risk. Lawyers are a lot more than $70.00.

Cheech.[/QUOTE]Yes, you are correct as with Street Walkers, very few LE decoys are going to get in your car and loose control over their person by doing so. So that is correct.

But this thread is about techniques and ideas of how to reduce the risks associated with dating off BP which inevitably involves going to a girl's hotel room. IF one follows the steps laid out here, then they have minimized the risk of an arrest. Where is the risk if you have NOT discussed sex acts for money and have asked for a legitimate service like massage, dancing, or Poetry Reading?

Then again, why couldn't one pick up the girl, under the pretense of going to a motel, drive her around the block and then return to HER motel room? Wouldn't that remove the risk, using your theory that no LE decoy is going to get into your car?

Just avoiding incall is one way to manage risk, hopefully one can learn other methods or techniques from this thread for managing risk.

[QUOTE=JohnHandCock;2869416]Must not be to trusted if you do this with the trusted. Most of the established girls ask for donation to be left somewhere in view. If your dealing with the junkies and rip off artist then I can see that. Top line providers I follow the request for how donation is received. Once I become trusted by them if they relax the rules then that's fine too.[/QUOTE]OP didn't say what level of girl he was dealing with, so don't see any point in casting aspersions on anyone's character?

Methods for dealing with the "pay up front" request are found in post #11 below.

Yes, the true professional girls, the ones who take it seriously and have professional websites and charge north of 200 tend to have a different set of rules. But that represents what 5% of all BP posters? So these rules are useful for dudes seeing the remaining 95%- which includes many cons, etc.

Now while I know most SW girls are dating for drugs and inevitably a lot of BP girls could be into drugs as well, it is critical IMHO to keep drugs out of the hobbying experience.

My point is that drug charges are felonies. Felonies stay on your record (the arrest) even if the charges are dropped (unless you pay more for an expungement process (if your state has that)). Plus, once charged one is going to need an expensive attorney to deal with or get out of the charges.

Penalties for dudes who solicit prostitution are usually misdemeanor crimes: low fines, no jail time. Drug charges as felonies mean high fines and potential jail time, let alone job troubles in the future.

When LE sets up stings in a motel they often ask the dudes to bring drugs with them. LE knows the solicitation charges are minor, but can look better to management if they also get a bunch of drugs off the streets too! It makes their bust look better, more cost effective when drug charges can be included.

So if a girl asks you to bring her drugs to a date, that is a HUGE [B][color=red]red flag[/color][/B]. Just don't do it!

THEN there is the legal concept of constructive possession....

[QUOTE=CephlapodLove;2394419]Look, bottom line is that paying for a rubdown, dancing, stripping or some other service is NOT illegal. You can pay a girl to read Emily Dickinson to you if you want. If that heats you up. If you want to talk to all of your potential dates about illegal things that include "sex acts for money," then hey, have at it! Yeah, in those cases, you would have said whatever LE needs you to say in order to make an arrest, so look to end up on the evening news. But if you have an agreement with your date for a rub or dancing then what happens after that might be hard to prove was paid for.

Not that I have omnipotent observations but. Me thinks the decoy / cop is going to try to get you to say some form of "sex for money" in their presence. Often there are two girls in the room which IMHO is a red flag for a couple of reasons. Also assume that the room is bugged. Have not seen cases where phone conversations or emails were used as the "proof" for solicitation without the dude offering "sex for money" in person. Connecting a 'voice on a phone,' a phone number or emails with the live person standing in the room would require the kind of time (warrants, subpoena) that just aren't worth it for a misdemeanor. But hey, call or text them from your cell phone registered in your name and by all means carry that phone into the date! NOT!

So here are my 22 Rules for Dating off BP? Can you take short cuts from all this work? Sure and you can become a statistic too.

1) Look at the pics. If it is too good to be true (TGTBT), then it probably is. Top pros with websites and Eros level prices are usually the exception.

2) Check out the images. Use Tineye or Google Image.

3) What do the pictures tell you? Traveler? Regular poster? Fake pictures?

4) Fake pictures are ones that are borrowed from another website. Fake pics are also pro level shots "altered" to look amateur like. If you can't tell the difference. Back off and watch the posts for 3-months until your eye is trained.

5) Travelers, while they maybe legit and good dates can tend to have low incentive to provide a great date under the hit & run philosophy. If your not looking for repeat clients because your gone in a week, then level of service isn't of concern. Also watch for Vegas and NV area codes! You want to avoid the hardcore pro girls who know how to separate you from your hard earned cash.

6) Check the girl's number with a search engine or one of the Escort Phone number search sites. Ibid all of the above.

7) Check for reviews of the girl on USA, TER or other review type sites.

8) NEVER call a potential date from your regular cell phone that has your name, address, etc, attached to it!

8) Have a Google Voice account set up. USE IT!

9) Use a burner or hobby phone with the GV.

10) Don't buy a hobby phone with a credit card, ATM card or debit card, don't set it up with your name, address, etc.

11) When contacting the girl, be polite, know your spending limits.

12) Ask the girl about the value of her time for a massage, rubdown, dancing or reading poetry to you!

13) NEVER ask about specific acts and / or the cost of such.

14) Any girl that says it is $100 for a s*ck & f*ck is breaking the law and is either a cop or is incredibly ignorant. I'd avoid both.

15) If meeting a girl at a hotel / motel get there well in advance and do some recon. See a bunch of unmarked cars in the lot? Any vans with tinted windows and people inside? Any buses or meat packing style trucks around? When approaching the room what does one hear in the hallway from the other rooms. Bunch of cops shooting the breeze, interrogating the last suspect? What happens if you walk past the door and return a few minutes later?

16) When entering the room. Is there more than one girl there? Better ask about that right away. Consider leaving.

17) Check the rest of the room or suite for other people. More than just the girl is a red flag. Check for an unlocked adjoining door.

18) When closing the door, add the security chain or throw the safety bar. Can't imagine a cop allowing them self to be cut-off from outside help like that.

19) Ask to do the cop check thing and do a verbal play-by-play! Say, "Oh yer pussy feels so wet", or "Oh your hand on my hard di*ck feels nice!" If the prosecutor is going to use a tape to nab you, might as well get embarrassing evidence included.

20) Never take anything into the date that you don't want to loose or have used against you. Suggest carrying just the Poetry Reading Fee, your copy of Emily Dickinson and a car key. Period. No cell phones, no wads of cash, no expensive jewelry, no high-priced watches, etc.

21) NEVER TALK SEX FOR MONEY! Never hand the money to the girl! Lay it on a table, TV, counter, etc, away from the girl with NO comment. You can look at it, just do not talk about it. Some slick ways to do this is have it in an envelop with the words, "fee for reading poetry" written on it. You can use the bathroom and leave it in there and then ask the girl to check something in the bathroom for you.

22) If she makes statements about sex for money, before she is fully naked and holding yer Johnson, say "I have no idea what your talking about, I came for a rub, dancing, poetry reading and turn and leave.

Can you follow all of these rules and still get arrested? Sure. Anything can happen. But if you follow these rules the chances of anything sticking are pretty darn slim.

Play safe, play knowledgeable.

Happy hunting!

[i]these are just the best I could come up with. I hope others with more experience will add to the list[/i][/QUOTE]As a relative newbie who wants to stay out of trouble, this was incredibly helpful! Thanks.

I would emphasize recon and be paranoid. It helps you walk away from a bad situation, very easily. Also, if they ever ask details they don't need to know like what kind of car your driving. You need to run. Alos, if your not from that part of town. I would suggest drive around it and see what its like. Don't go in blind.

[QUOTE=Furrber;3085475]I would emphasize recon and be paranoid. It helps you walk away from a bad situation, very easily. Also, if they ever ask details they don't need to know like what kind of car your driving. You need to run. Alos, if your not from that part of town. I would suggest drive around it and see what its like. Don't go in blind.[/QUOTE]Good point! Recon is an excellent idea! Always know who is down the block, around the corner, in the alley behind, etc. Be aware of the surroundings!

One technique I have used when asked about the car I am arriving in is to give a description of a different car. If you have two cars, one could describe the car they will not be driving. Or use a description of the neighbor's car! If she asks, one can always say that the other car was blocked in, out of gas or SO took it. Showing up in a different car has never been a problem with a legit girl.

[QUOTE=FatSo543;3074573]As a relative newbie who wants to stay out of trouble, this was incredibly helpful! Thanks.[/QUOTE]Your the man for this post bro!

[QUOTE=DWillnj609;3119492]Your the man for this post bro![/QUOTE]After reading the post about being safe and not to talk about what you're looking for reminded me of a time when Luxsa was between locations. Called the number posted and was told they were in a rented house up the road. Two women led me to a massage table in the back room and asked I get comfortable and leave donation on the table. I did as asked and they both came in the room fully clothed, slapped some oil on my back and rubbed. Can't remember if I was covered or not but the gals were cute and upon flip, it was obvious I thought so. They never even got close to touching me inappropriately but kept asking if I wanted more, my response was something like "What are you offering", no response. This went on for a good 1/2 hr - 45 min then 1 gal left the room, came back and excused themselves and left together. I got dressed, grabbed the donation back off the table and walked out. I thought maybe they were worried about me and moved on. Hmmm? Be Safe and in control.

[QUOTE=CephlapodLove;2920736]Now while I know most SW girls are dating for drugs and inevitably a lot of BP girls could be into drugs as well, it is critical IMHO to keep drugs out of the hobbying experience.

My point is that drug charges are felonies. Felonies stay on your record (the arrest) even if the charges are dropped (unless you pay more for an expungement process (if your state has that)). Plus, once charged one is going to need an expensive attorney to deal with or get out of the charges.

Penalties for dudes who solicit prostitution are usually misdemeanor crimes: low fines, no jail time. Drug charges as felonies mean high fines and potential jail time, let alone job troubles in the future.

When LE sets up stings in a motel they often ask the dudes to bring drugs with them. LE knows the solicitation charges are minor, but can look better to management if they also get a bunch of drugs off the streets too! It makes their bust look better, more cost effective when drug charges can be included.

So if a girl asks you to bring her drugs to a date, that is a HUGE [B]red flag[/B]. Just don't do it!


THEN there is the legal concept of constructive possession....[/QUOTE]Imagine if you get caught up in something like this. Your life is ruined.

Great! These were the commandments I was looking for.

[QUOTE=CephlapodLove;2920736]Now while I know most SW girls are dating for drugs and inevitably a lot of BP girls could be into drugs as well, it is critical IMHO to keep drugs out of the hobbying experience.

My point is that drug charges are felonies. Felonies stay on your record (the arrest) even if the charges are dropped (unless you pay more for an expungement process (if your state has that)). Plus, once charged one is going to need an expensive attorney to deal with or get out of the charges.

Penalties for dudes who solicit prostitution are usually misdemeanor crimes: low fines, no jail time. Drug charges as felonies mean high fines and potential jail time, let alone job troubles in the future.

When LE sets up stings in a motel they often ask the dudes to bring drugs with them. LE knows the solicitation charges are minor, but can look better to management if they also get a bunch of drugs off the streets too! It makes their bust look better, more cost effective when drug charges can be included.

So if a girl asks you to bring her drugs to a date, that is a HUGE [B]red flag[/B]. Just don't do it!

THEN there is the legal concept of constructive possession....[/QUOTE][B]Constructive Possession[/B]

There is this legal concept that the police know very well. Ask any druggie. Called "Constructive Possession". [I]now any druggie isn't going to know that formal name, but sure can tell you of having charges "put on them" when they didn't have or "possess" the drugs. [/I] So, What this means is that any drugs found in your car, [I] (What if she dumps her stash in the console as you are being pulled over?),[/I] found in a motel room you are occupying or [U]found in proximity to you[/U], CAN be deemed to belong to you or possessed by you! Google the if you don't believe me. So what happens is that LE will arrest EVERYONE in proximity to the drugs, everyone under this legal concept is seen as having possessed the drugs. Crazy, right? 5 people in a car and everyone of them is deemed to possess the same drugs? That sadly is the reality! Now drug charges just do not "go away" and to get out of it one needs to hire a lawyer, and even then, unless someone admits to those being their drugs, the prosecutor is going to nail you. Oh, and not sure IF one does get out of drug charges if perhaps the arrest still stays on your record?

So, I'm just a scared idiot out there- so any girl who obviously has drugs or wants to buy them in my presence or who wants to use them while I am around gets kicked out! PERIOD. The point of having a zero tolerance policy on drugs is THE LAW. Constructive possession. If the drugs are on the girl or in her bag AND she claims the bag or drugs as hers, then she gets the charges! However, she stashes them in your car or you are in the proximity of the drugs and you can and likely will be charged with possession.

So me? Rather safe than sorry. I'm just saying.

[QUOTE=CephlapodLove;3849296][B]Constructive Possession[/B]

There is this legal concept that the police know very well. Ask any druggie. Called "Constructive Possession". [I]now any druggie isn't going to know that formal name, but sure can tell you of having charges "put on them" when they didn't have or "possess" the drugs. [/I] So, What this means is that any drugs found in your car, [I] (What if she dumps her stash in the console as you are being pulled over?),[/I] found in a motel room you are occupying or [U]found in proximity to you[/U], CAN be deemed to belong to you or possessed by you! Google the if you don't believe me. So what happens is that LE will arrest EVERYONE in proximity to the drugs, everyone under this legal concept is seen as having possessed the drugs. Crazy, right? 5 people in a car and everyone of them is deemed to possess the same drugs? That sadly is the reality! Now drug charges just do not "go away" and to get out of it one needs to hire a lawyer, and even then, unless someone admits to those being their drugs, the prosecutor is going to nail you. Oh, and not sure IF one does get out of drug charges if perhaps the arrest still stays on your record?

So, I'm just a scared idiot out there- so any girl who obviously has drugs or wants to buy them in my presence or who wants to use them while I am around gets kicked out! PERIOD. The point of having a zero tolerance policy on drugs is THE LAW. Constructive possession. If the drugs are on the girl or in her bag AND she claims the bag or drugs as hers, then she gets the charges! However, she stashes them in your car or you are in the proximity of the drugs and you can and likely will be charged with possession.

So me? Rather safe than sorry. I'm just saying.[/QUOTE]Constructive possession is the legal possession of an object, even if it was not in a person's direct physical control. Often used in criminal law prosecutions for possession crimes, such as possession of illegal drugs. Generally, for a court to find that a person had constructive possession of an object, the person must have had knowledge of the object, and as well as the ability to control it. For example, someone with keys to a safe deposit box may have constructive possession to the contents of that box, and the owner of a car may have constructive possession of the contents of its trunk.

[URL]https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/constructive_possession[/URL]

Not that you need the hassle, but the burden of proof is on the prosecution to show that the car owner was aware of the object, drugs in this case. Any decent defence attorney can beat this charge.

[QUOTE=HomeyD;5317334]Constructive possession is the legal possession of an object, even if it was not in a person's direct physical control. Often used in criminal law prosecutions for possession crimes, such as possession of illegal drugs. Generally, for a court to find that a person had constructive possession of an object, the person must have had knowledge of the object, and as well as the ability to control it. For example, someone with keys to a safe deposit box may have constructive possession to the contents of that box, and the owner of a car may have constructive possession of the contents of its trunk.

[URL]https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/constructive_possession[/URL]

Not that you need the hassle, but the burden of proof is on the prosecution to show that the car owner was aware of the object, drugs in this case.[b] Any decent defence attorney can beat this charge.[/b][/QUOTE]Er, um, ah. Maybe. Not being argumentative here, just providing a different perspective. One can best make decisions when one has different views to consider.

I'll refer readers to the post by Afraven on how he got jammed up when the regular girl he scooped dumped drugs in his car. He had no knowledge of the drugs and they were only found after a dog alerted and provided probable cause for a search. Did the prosecutors have to prove he knew about the drugs? Doesn't sound like it. Also doesn't sound like a "good defense attorney" was able to get him out of the charges, either.

[URL]http://www.usasexguide.nl/forum/showthread.php?7284-Streetwalker-Reports&p=4804397[/URL]#post4804397.

Point is stay away from drugs in the hobby. If you need to get into the technicalities of "constructive possession" then you are spending some big bucks on a lawyer, you have an arrest record, etc.

The law is made up of more than what is written in the "Code". Many details and intricacies that get "added" through cases that are decided (case law). The reason an attorney gets the big bucks is that they know the Code and the Case Law and how that case law is ever changing on a daily basis. Also the facts of each case are unique and standing at 30,000 feet and trying to apply knowledge may miss the particular facts of any case. But for my money, I'd rather keep tings on a misdemeanor level than escalate to felony level with drugs involved.

All FWIW, YMMV! Stay safe!