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[QUOTE=MorganCreamin;5162707]This one favorited me and I'll not be responding. Face and body screams "this is a dude" even accounting for her / his assumed pacific islander heritage.
ISLANDgODDESSSSS.
[URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/ba8e60ac-c0ef-49eb-b34e-14abce7cab99[/URL][/QUOTE]Doesn't look like a dude to me? That's not to say she's attractive. No Adam's Apple and the boobs look real.
[QUOTE=MorganCreamin;5162707]This one favorited me and I'll not be responding. Face and body screams "this is a dude" even accounting for her / his assumed pacific islander heritage.
ISLANDgODDESSSSS.
[URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/ba8e60ac-c0ef-49eb-b34e-14abce7cab99[/URL][/QUOTE]Maybe if we request the hidden pics, there is a dick shot!
[QUOTE=CookieGuy;5163017]Maybe if we request the hidden pics, there is a dick shot![/QUOTE]Go for it. I already blocked that monstrosity.
[QUOTE=RichardQ;5162903][URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/dd2a6f77-34ba-4a3b-ad6e-c7d86884dcb2[/URL]
I have been chatting with Nana. She seems like a pro, but I haven't seen her on TNA. Does anyone have info?[/QUOTE]Not sure it means anything, but that photo is also from pinterest: [URL]https://www.pinterest.com/pin/721279696543753477/[/URL].
[QUOTE=Bronco62;5161259]Anyone have any info on this one?
[URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/6ee7b111-36e9-45d9-8e05-9dcdfc1a0071[/URL][/QUOTE]Too high maintenance for my taste.
We agreed to meet, reasonable PPM and she can host
While chatting she said she gets sore easily and never fucks for over 45 minutes, then she asked me to bring some food for dinner
I was trying to figure ways to extend the 45 minutes mark, I suggested fucking, dinner and then more fucking.
She said, you come, we play, we have fun, we eat we said goodbye and first meeting requires a condom.
I then passed and she got pretty angry, nasty text.
She is hot but if I wanted to fuck a one shot hot b.i.t.c.h. I would have stayed married. ;)
[QUOTE=Bronco62;5161259]Anyone have any info on this one?
[URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/6ee7b111-36e9-45d9-8e05-9dcdfc1a0071[/URL][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=DelToro;5163650]Too high maintenance for my taste.
We agreed to meet, reasonable PPM and she can host
While chatting she said she gets sore easily and never fucks for over 45 minutes, then she asked me to bring some food for dinner
I was trying to figure ways to extend the 45 minutes mark, I suggested fucking, dinner and then more fucking.
She said, you come, we play, we have fun, we eat we said goodbye and first meeting requires a condom.
I then passed and she got pretty angry, nasty text.
She is hot but if I wanted to fuck a one shot hot b.i.t.c.h. I would have stayed married. ;)[/QUOTE]Similar experience. But slightly different in my case. She talked a big game in texts. I started out with the usual "getting to know you" crap etc. In her second text message. She flat out said she is looking for someone to come to her hotel room to "bring me dinner and fuck the shit out of me" . I told her yeah sure and she angels towards a meet. And I ofcourse started asking things to ensure that we are sexually a good fit. She basically said Yes to everything. Submissive - wnats to tbe throatfucked etc etc. I felt this was too good to be true. She started by asking for 500 I told her I am a 250 guy. We settle on 300 for 3-4 hours (PPM). Then I drop the CIP bomb with recent test results and she tells me no way and that HOW could I ask in the first meet. I tell it is simple. It is the same way she asks about allowance. We all ask for what we want. She gets pissed we tell each other to fuck off and l start looking for the next girl on SA. .
NOTE: I am extremely good at personalities. This lady is unstable. She is implusive and she DEFINITELY is a liar. I now know for a fact that if I went there to see her. She would have given me the I cannot do the full 4 hours or some BS like that. She will actually be a good fit on TNA. She is here to make as much as she can for as little work as possible. She talks a big game. I did not see her. So this is just my opinion. As alway YMMV.
[QUOTE=DrtyHarry;5163955]Similar experience. But slightly different in my case. She talked a big game in texts. I started out with the usual "getting to know you" crap etc. In her second text message. She flat out said she is looking for someone to come to her hotel room to "bring me dinner and fuck the shit out of me" . I told her yeah sure and she angels towards a meet. And I ofcourse started asking things to ensure that we are sexually a good fit. She basically said Yes to everything. Submissive - wnats to tbe throatfucked etc etc. I felt this was too good to be true. She started by asking for 500 I told her I am a 250 guy. We settle on 300 for 3-4 hours (PPM). Then I drop the CIP bomb with recent test results and she tells me no way and that HOW could I ask in the first meet. I tell it is simple. It is the same way she asks about allowance. We all ask for what we want. She gets pissed we tell each other to fuck off and l start looking for the next girl on SA. .
NOTE: I am extremely good at personalities. This lady is unstable. She is implusive and she DEFINITELY is a liar. I now know for a fact that if I went there to see her. She would have given me the I cannot do the full 4 hours or some BS like that. She will actually be a good fit on TNA. She is here to make as much as she can for as little work as possible. She talks a big game. I did not see her. So this is just my opinion. As alway YMMV.[/QUOTE]Can't say that I'm immune to the cliche of being attracted to crazy ("unstable," "impulsive," "liar") and the reported interactions between this SA member makes me think she could be a wild ride. Not sure the risk is worth it though.
I call bullshit on her purported career. No way she's an active flight attendant; she wouldn't include face photos in her public profile.
[QUOTE=DrtyHarry;5163955] We settle on 300 for 3-4 hours (PPM). She talks a big game. I did not see her. So this is just my opinion. As alway YMMV.[/QUOTE]Very unlikely she would do 3-4 hours.
She does talk big game at first. For me it went something like.
Her: "I like it all, I really like sex. ".
Me: "Great because I can have sex for hours. ".
Her: "I have never done more than 45 minutes as I get easily sore. ".
She definitely wanted to keep me on a tight schedule as we were meeting at 6:00pm and she wanted to meet, have sex and dinner in time for her to go for a run. In the kind of encounters I like, the idea is not to be able to walk properly after it, let alone run ;)
One of the main reasons I prefer SA rather than TNA is the lack of clock watching, a good PPM for 3-4 hour arrangement is shitty if it is going down to 45 minutes.
Forgot to add, no anal, no fingers, in addition to the mandatory condom and no MSOG. And she started with "I like it all" .
[QUOTE=DelToro;5162055]Any intel on this one.
Curiousbabyyy.
[URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/074928d6-ec4d-45c3-9dce-cb730c8034d4[/URL][/QUOTE]No personal intel. I would not message her. She has not logged in since Dec 29 and to me that is a sign that she will take FOREVER to respond. I am right now dealing with two women who are similar. I. e login only every 15 days and then catchup on PMs. My expereince is most of them have 100's of messsages and when they scan their inboxes at that rate with that volume. Tend to only respond to chumps who offer up their houses to meet. Again that is just my opinion.
[QUOTE=BrstMan;5153944]I have figured it out.
Profile name intact and when you look at conversation it says "Unable to send message as this user is no longer active" = you were blocked.
Profile name changed to "sugar baby" and when you look at conversation it says "This user's account has been deactivated" = they shutdown their account.[/QUOTE]I found out something else that can make a profile disappear, I was texting with this girl from SA and her profile just went away, no longer in my favorites and conversation gone. I asked her about it and she changed her screen name, I guess if a woman does that it it is like the profile never existed, she told me her new screen name and found it, but that is an interesting bit of info.
[QUOTE=DrtyHarry;5164269]No personal intel. I would not message her. She has not logged in since Dec 29 and to me that is a sign that she will take FOREVER to respond. I am right now dealing with two women who are similar. I. e login only every 15 days and then catchup on PMs. My expereince is most of them have 100's of messsages and when they scan their inboxes at that rate with that volume. Tend to only respond to chumps who offer up their houses to meet. Again that is just my opinion.[/QUOTE]She actually contacted me.
Chatted on the site a bit then switched to text.
Got pretty steamy and then she stopped communicating.
She did send the peace sign selfie right away, not bullet proof but some evidence she might be legit.
[QUOTE=Efurufe;5163225]Not sure it means anything, but that photo is also from pinterest: [URL]https://www.pinterest.com/pin/721279696543753477/[/URL].[/QUOTE]Now, perhaps Nana85 on SA actually is a Taiwanese Blogger on Instagram with close to 75,000 followers? More likely that the person behind the Nana85 profile looks absolutely nothing like the buxom blogger from Taiwan.
Maybe she looks similar? Or it could be a dude that looks more like Island_Princesssssss (forgot how many S were in his / her SA profile name).
[QUOTE=DelToro;5162055]Any intel on this one.
Curiousbabyyy.
[URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/074928d6-ec4d-45c3-9dce-cb730c8034d4[/URL][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=DelToro;5164424]She actually contacted me.
Chatted on the site a bit then switched to text.
Got pretty steamy and then she stopped communicating.
She did send the peace sign selfie right away, not bullet proof but some evidence she might be legit.[/QUOTE]Yeah that is what I was referring to legit. Yes - but her profile gives me the vibe that she is 'busy' and will take long periods of time to respond. But like I said that is just my opinion. I hope someone here has seen her and can share intel. I am half way tempted to send her a note. But right now I am juggling a few as well and those are responsive. So holding off.
Wants $3 k / mo. Hot as fuck though. From communication would likely be high maintenance and offer only the minimun she can get away with.
[URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/0a9c73f2-a882-4f39-843f-c04304e43ee9[/URL]
Nana85娜23068; [URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/dd2a6f77-34ba-4a3b-ad6e-c7d86884dcb2[/URL].
Someone mentioned this profile on here assuming it was a scam so I contacted her. She (immediately wanted to go to text. She wanted 400 +100 bb +100 cip. Definite pro vibe. I asked for a verification pic, it was another generic asian female that may or may not have been her. I said I won't go above 300. She said no then after a while offered 400+60 for plan b. I said 300. Silence for a but then she said 400 if I can meet today. I again said 300. She said no. I don't think she'll budge at this point.
I'm guessing it's unlikely that a scammer would hold out for a specific amount like this but still GPS.
[QUOTE=BrstMan;5164357]I found out something else that can make a profile disappear, I was texting with this girl from SA and her profile just went away, no longer in my favorites and conversation gone. I asked her about it and she changed her screen name, I guess if a woman does that it it is like the profile never existed, she told me her new screen name and found it, but that is an interesting bit of info.[/QUOTE]Perhaps that's what messes up the unviewed filter. Searching unviewed profiles I notice some that I've seen before show up again. I guess it's possible they changed their usernames.
[QUOTE=DrtyHarry;5165283]Yeah that is what I was referring to legit. Yes - but her profile gives me the vibe that she is 'busy' and will take long periods of time to respond. But like I said that is just my opinion. I hope someone here has seen her and can share intel. I am half way tempted to send her a note. But right now I am juggling a few as well and those are responsive. So holding off.[/QUOTE]I think she might be a troll. Ghosted me when we tried to meet before. Fish are still biting though keeping me busy.
Am I the only guy who bristles when he reads, in an SB's profile, a phrase like, "Get me something from my wishlist to show you're serious?" Aw, hellz no. Maybe I'm a cheap bastard but I'm not about to buy you anything before we meet, especially without at least an implied transactional arrangement. I'll donate dollars to charity without expecting or wanting anything in return except for maybe a thank you note, but SBs aren't charities and SDs aren't vying for itemized deductions on their tax returns.
Had to vent. That felt good.
[QUOTE=FantasyManJ;5166078]I think she might be a troll. Ghosted me when we tried to meet before. Fish are still biting though keeping me busy.[/QUOTE]We ended up texting. She said that she was stoned, hungry and horny. Exchanged steamy texts and wanted to "sexy FaceTime" (her words). She then wanted to send pics if I spoil her. Then ghosted.
[QUOTE=Original703;5166269]Am I the only guy who bristles when he reads, in an SB's profile, a phrase like, "Get me something from my wishlist to show you're serious?" Aw, hellz no. Maybe I'm a cheap bastard but I'm not about to buy you anything before we meet, especially without at least an implied transactional arrangement. I'll donate dollars to charity without expecting or wanting anything in return except for maybe a thank you note, but SBs aren't charities and SDs aren't vying for itemized deductions on their tax returns.
Had to vent. That felt good.[/QUOTE]I don't even read their profiles to be honest. It is their job to try to impress us for them to get an allowance. They meet us on our schedule and provide what we want. This mentality has helped me wrangle some GPS girls back to earth and also have some SBs begging for attention. Buyer's market unlike our local real estate market.
I guess the site lost some post so I will go again.
[URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/8fb72528-1568-41a0-8fad-09852afbb941[/URL]
She doesn't seem too bright I am too busy to make a run at her and I am surprised she hasn't blocked me, but then again she isn't too bright, she hasn't said an amount yet.
[URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/afcabb13-1a9e-4b82-b040-f753e69feb5b[/URL]
This one is a scam.
There was another but she has since deactivated her account.
I have noticed many are deactivating their accounts, a few I was talking to said they would deactivate their account when they had an arrangement set, I was able to confirm deactivation as they are not showing up on my other account.
[QUOTE=MorganCreamin;5165675]Nana85娜23068; [URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/dd2a6f77-34ba-4a3b-ad6e-c7d86884dcb2[/URL].
Someone mentioned this profile on here assuming it was a scam so I contacted her. She (immediately wanted to go to text. She wanted 400 +100 bb +100 cip. Definite pro vibe. I asked for a verification pic, it was another generic asian female that may or may not have been her. I said I won't go above 300. She said no then after a while offered 400+60 for plan b. I said 300. Silence for a but then she said 400 if I can meet today. I again said 300. She said no. I don't think she'll budge at this point.
I'm guessing it's unlikely that a scammer would hold out for a specific amount like this but still GPS.[/QUOTE]Curvy Chinese girl. Is it a coincidence that her pricing structure mirrors exactly what Doris (see Bareback thread section) has. Is she is Bellevue? Haha that would be too funny.
[URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/16abb981-22ec-4fc2-8524-965974c691eb[/URL]
Scam.
Plays the "I'm paranoid of being taken advantage of" spiel. Wants you to buy her a wishlist item or cashapp. Says she will hang out all night and up for anything but wants you to prove that you're legit. I sent 20 and then she blocked me. SMh.
[QUOTE=BrstMan;5166559]I guess the site lost some post so I will go again.
[URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/8fb72528-1568-41a0-8fad-09852afbb941[/URL]
She doesn't seem too bright I am too busy to make a run at her and I am surprised she hasn't blocked me, but then again she isn't too bright, she hasn't said an amount yet.[/QUOTE]No personal experience. This is a profile I would read and not follow-up. She will give you the runaround and not commit. She wants money with as little physical intimacy (for medical reasons of course) as possible. I could be wrong. But that is what I take out of the way that profile is framed.
[QUOTE=DrtyHarry;5166869]Curvy Chinese girl. Is it a coincidence that her pricing structure mirrors exactly what Doris (see Bareback thread section) has. Is she is Bellevue? Haha that would be too funny.[/QUOTE]Not aware of Doris, but yes in Bellevue.
[QUOTE=Original703;5166269]Am I the only guy who bristles when he reads, in an SB's profile, a phrase like, "Get me something from my wishlist to show you're serious?" Aw, hellz no. Maybe I'm a cheap bastard but I'm not about to buy you anything before we meet, especially without at least an implied transactional arrangement. I'll donate dollars to charity without expecting or wanting anything in return except for maybe a thank you note, but SBs aren't charities and SDs aren't vying for itemized deductions on their tax returns.
Had to vent. That felt good.[/QUOTE]I agree completely. I want to write them and say, "how about you suck my cock to show that you're serious?" Again, the problem is all the simps out there paying a lot of money for little to no service so the SBs get inflated egos. And forget who the customer is whether or not they play the "I'm not an escort" game.
I do not have a link. But her screen name is up there she goes by beautifulmamii on SA. We agreed on 300 for a ppm in person meet and she seemed happy with everything. A day before I booked. I did my usual of confirming things with her and she starts with I never meet for less than 500 and 700 for raw. I of course. Told her that I was here for a stress free. Fun time and a moving target for allowance was too much drama for me. And ended it.
She is extremely good looking (at least her pics are. Tall skinny Latina) . Very exotic and sexy. But if you do set something up with her. My advice is to be extremely careful. She will respond right away (usually within 10 minutes of you texting her) - so you feel she is engaged. But she is clearly operating at a very different frequency. .
Luckily had 2 backups for tomorrow night so I am all set.
[QUOTE=MorganCreamin;5165669]Wants $3 k / mo. Hot as fuck though. From communication would likely be high maintenance and offer only the minimun she can get away with.
[URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/0a9c73f2-a882-4f39-843f-c04304e43ee9[/URL][/QUOTE]I'd be pleasantly surprised if she were legit. The pictures, anyway, are of a bikini barista at hottie shots in Kent (mentioned in her Twitter and IG). She's been there a few years and works weekdays. I don't think she's quite 37. She was married (not sure if she still is bc I don't see it posted on her IG account / I'm pretty sure it was at some point). Probably a scam using robbed pictures would be my first guess, but anything's possible when rent is due.
[QUOTE=MorganCreamin;5165675]Nana85娜23068; [URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/dd2a6f77-34ba-4a3b-ad6e-c7d86884dcb2[/URL].
Someone mentioned this profile on here assuming it was a scam so I contacted her. She (immediately wanted to go to text. She wanted 400 +100 bb +100 cip. Definite pro vibe. I asked for a verification pic, it was another generic asian female that may or may not have been her. I said I won't go above 300. She said no then after a while offered 400+60 for plan b. I said 300. Silence for a but then she said 400 if I can meet today. I again said 300. She said no. I don't think she'll budge at this point.
I'm guessing it's unlikely that a scammer would hold out for a specific amount like this but still GPS.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=DrtyHarry;5166869]Curvy Chinese girl. Is it a coincidence that her pricing structure mirrors exactly what Doris (see Bareback thread section) has. Is she is Bellevue? Haha that would be too funny.[/QUOTE]Is she the same as Doris on TNA. Curvy Chinese girl in Bellevue with the exact same pricing structure. Anyone knows for sure?
[URL]https://www.tnaboard.com/member.php?235122-doris[/URL]
Seems like someone already mentioned that her pics on SA are not accurate.
[URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/dd2a6f77-34ba-4a3b-ad6e-c7d86884dcb2[/URL]
Why'all only wanted intel on dirty girls? Well here's one. Not on BC though so careful buds.
[URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/19eefed9-2a56-4215-a7a2-666c53aba0ff[/URL]
[QUOTE=DrtyHarry;5167489]Is she the same as Doris on TNA. Curvy Chinese girl in Bellevue with the exact same pricing structure. Anyone knows for sure?
[URL]https://www.tnaboard.com/member.php?235122-doris[/URL]
Seems like someone already mentioned that her pics on SA are not accurate.
[URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/dd2a6f77-34ba-4a3b-ad6e-c7d86884dcb2[/URL][/QUOTE]Except for the $300 for an hour, her most recent reviews on TNA (3 of them) sound good. One of them stated "LFKDFKBBBJDATYGFECFS". If she allowed DATO and the rate was $200 for the hour, I'and consider visiting her (although hate to drive up to Bellevue). If she also offered BBFS, I'd pay $240, at the most.
[QUOTE=FantasyManJ;5167702]Why'all only wanted intel on dirty girls? Well here's one. Not on BC though so careful buds.
[URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/19eefed9-2a56-4215-a7a2-666c53aba0ff[/URL][/QUOTE]Haha no BC huh. You becoming a baby daddy soon? Define dirty bud. I bet she has a million PMs by now.
It's interesting when they show revealing pics and then add they want nothing sexual, LOL.
[URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/e42d1382-7baf-440a-945a-c010c888200d[/URL]
[URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/dd2a6f77-34ba-4a3b-ad6e-c7d86884dcb2[/URL]
She is in Bellevue. When I texted her, she was not interested in chatting and getting acquainted. She just wanted to make an appointment to fuck. She asked for 400. She acts like an escort, not a sugar baby.
[QUOTE=DrtyHarry;5167489]Is she the same as Doris on TNA. Curvy Chinese girl in Bellevue with the exact same pricing structure. Anyone knows for sure?
[URL]https://www.tnaboard.com/member.php?235122-doris[/URL]
Seems like someone already mentioned that her pics on SA are not accurate.
[URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/dd2a6f77-34ba-4a3b-ad6e-c7d86884dcb2[/URL][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Jonderin;5167759]It's interesting when they show revealing pics and then add they want nothing sexual, LOL.
[URL]https://www.seeking.com/member/e42d1382-7baf-440a-945a-c010c888200d[/URL][/QUOTE]Haha she is naked in her pics. She is fishing for a large allowance. That is all it is.
[QUOTE=DrtyHarry;5167070]No personal experience. This is a profile I would read and not follow-up. She will give you the runaround and not commit. She wants money with as little physical intimacy (for medical reasons of course) as possible. I could be wrong. But that is what I take out of the way that profile is framed.[/QUOTE]I was bored and had no intention on meeting unless she said lets fuck, she has been trying to get me to meet if she texts me I may ask her to meet at a hotel if she says yes great if she says no whatever.
[QUOTE=DrtyHarry;5167749]Haha no BC huh. You becoming a baby daddy soon? Define dirty bud. I bet she has a million PMs by now.[/QUOTE]About half the girls that have responded to my on SA have said they are not on birth control, kind of surprised at that.
[QUOTE=DrtyHarry;5167749]Haha no BC huh. You becoming a baby daddy soon? Define dirty bud. I bet she has a million PMs by now.[/QUOTE]She was down to be tied up and CIA. I try not to partake in CIP with girls like her. Child support no thanks. Although, just met with this nice petite 21 year old that wasn't on BC. I don't normally trust the pullout but little head took over so pray for me friends.
Getting tired of the dry begging on SA. You put in a lot of time on getting her in the mood, negotiating the price and then setting something up. About 1-2 hrs before I drive to the hotel or to meet her in a public spot before the hotel. The dry begging starts (not always. But more frequently now). Top Dry Begs:
1 I have to babysit my little sister. I don't want to, I really want to fuck you instead. I can hire a babysitter. Should I do that baby? -- You already know if you say no. The appointment is down the drain. If you say yes. Then the expectation is set that daddy will cover the cost. I have wrangled out of this. But fucking hate this last minute hiccup.
2 I just noticed that I am almost on empty. Can daddy venmo me $30 for gas. This is another one that is becoming frequent.
3 You already have this room for the night. Would you mind if I just slept here tonight. My roommates are really disrespecting me with parties in the apartment, I have a paper to write and I need a place to study and all the libraries are closed due to COVID. -- This last one has only happened once. For once I could not be discreet. I just flat out told her that this has burned me in the past. And it is not something I am going to allow.
4 Oh you came inside me? I am not on birth control. Oh just give me the money and I will buy the Plan B myself.
5 Hey sweetheart. I would not ever normally do this. But I just ordered a bunch of food from instacart and I am low on funds. Can daddy please venmo me 50 - you can take it off my next allowance.
This is not a complete list. But in just the last 2 months I have heard some version of these excuses on a semi regular basis. What is a man to do? Can't I just get pussy at a reasonable. Honest price? Let me sing the Daddy Blues.
[QUOTE=BrstMan;5167846]About half the girls that have responded to my on SA have said they are not on birth control, kind of surprised at that.[/QUOTE]This is very true. A lot of women are cutting corners and not taking their pills. You can be pretty sure that the ones who are between jobs (I. E. No health insurance) have much higher probability of not being on the pill. There is really no way to know for sure. Most of them are a step away from becoming full time hookers. You cannot trust a single word that comes out of their mouths. I know this sounds jaded, but the reality is you really cannot trust what they say. This is another reason I do not give any PII information to a SA lady. No matter how often I see her. I have never seen the same lady more than 5 times anyway. So in my mind. No matter how good she fucks. And no matter how deep the conversation gets in bed and how drunk you are after the booze / wine. Do not give any PII information.
I have a lot to loose. They have relatively nothing to loose. But a huge upside. Anybody with half a brain should understand that the odds are stacked against you the moment she turns crazy.