"Sugarbabies" / "Arrangements" Amateurs or Not?

[QUOTE=F Scott;1404271]A mistake I made when starting out was to send out dozens of contacts a week, most of which produced a reply. I just could not follow up on all of them, and so I know I let some prime action slip through my fingers just because I got carried away. This is kind of my personality, I will admit. I tend to go all in or not at all.[/QUOTE]This is precisely the mistake I made. I sent out 20+ e-mails. Not that I am complaining about the volume of replies, but I will have to let some of them go, which pains me a bit.

Tonight's first M&G went well. Drinks only, as I'm a little shy, and this is my first SA girl. She's late 20s, no kids, and has a bangin' body. Her life is a bit screwed up; a few exes here and there, a weird family, and no real career future as far as I can tell. But, no discernible drug issues, no kids, and no overt weirdness. So she passed round one, and depending on how things go next week with future M&Gs, she may be a keeper, if only to see those beautiful C cups I was trying not to stare at all night. She also was happy with my paying for drinks only (no sugar tonight) and said she does not like explicit discussions regarding future sugar amounts. We'll see, won't we?

My question for the experts, one which admittedly has been discussed at length in these threads, but which, in my opinion, can never be fully understood: How do I close the deal and get a girl to the FC? I know, there are as many answers as there are different girls. But, keep in mind: I'm shy, reserved, and have never been good at this in my civilian life. I assume I will have to make the first move, and I also assume that if she is not interested, she'll make no bones about telling me so. But what do you suggest? Have a room booked? Or suggest we go somewhere private? Or suggest we meet directly at the hotel?

[QUOTE=JoesParty;1404509]I assume I will have to make the first move, and I also assume that if she is not interested, she'll make no bones about telling me so. But what do you suggest? Have a room booked? Or suggest we go somewhere private? Or suggest we meet directly at the hotel?[/QUOTE]Actually I never make the first move. Lead up to it but hold back let them make the final step. So much more fun sipping a drink and holding back a bit and she will say "I want to fuck"

Play the movie Hitch, watch the scene where Will Smith instructs the guy to get close for the first kiss, but hold back and she will do it.

I do also use " You do understand that if you don't let me pay for drinks and dinner I will have to spank you " etc.

Works for me like a charm always. I understand "willy" (Man's best friend / built in toy) has his own mind, but if he is patient she will give more willingly.

I'm no expert, but have had some success with SA. So here is my $.02.

You have to make the first move, they are not going to drag you back to their cave and jump you. If they seem "in to you" then I'd come right out and suggest that the next time you meet you meet at a hotel. If she says yes, you are in, if she "wants to get to know you better" then your call as to where to take it from there. If she says "no" then may want to consider cutting bait.

My tactic has been to a) meet in public so they get comfortable with you and figure you are not an axe murderer be) once they seem comfy, suggest you sit in talk in the car or meet somewhere a little more private (maybe a park. Have gotten two nice bjs in a park in the last month) see) make some kind of move (e. G. Put your hand on her leg, try to kiss her etc.). IF she is up for see, she's probably up for anything.

So at some level its just like high school, get them comfortable, then move in for the kill, so to speak. But you have to man up and make the first move, my friend.

Hope that helps.

And I think I screwed up how this posted. So here is the question below:

My question for the experts, one which admittedly has been discussed at length in these threads, but which, in my opinion, can never be fully understood: How do I close the deal and get a girl to the FC? I know, there are as many answers as there are different girls. But, keep in mind: I'm shy, reserved, and have never been good at this in my civilian life. I assume I will have to make the first move, and I also assume that if she is not interested, she'll make no bones about telling me so. But what do you suggest? Have a room booked? Or suggest we go somewhere private? Or suggest we meet directly at the hotel?[/QUOTE]

Welcome to the Sugar Bowl LoKirk! It sounds like you have a lot on the line already. I have three questions for you. What age range are you, are you married, and what site are you getting these pots from? You mention going out dancing with several of these girls so I assume you are single. Married guys have to be more careful dating in public preferring to go for intimate dinner and drinks before entering the FC.

All these questions have been discussed at length but I will hit a few high spots. PTP vs allowance essentially differs experienced SBs from newbies or hookers. I highly recommend PTP since your pay is linked to their productivity. I have a long term SB (naif) who I pay as we go and she is fine with that. Many SBs think they are prostituting themselves if they accept PTP rather than an allowance but in the end it's all the same, isn't it? If you pay an allowance then you will not going to get your moneys worth and will pay more / meeting. The per meeting rate is based on the local escort rates which in this area of mid Va is $2-300 / hr. A regular SB meeting should be for an extended period (multihours or all night) and not the one hour. Experienced SBs will want a monthly allowance. $ 1-2000 / month is not unreasonable depending on how often you see her. If you see her once / week then $1000 is fair. Keep in mind you will be spending more money for dinner, drinks, club fees, gifts, flowers, hotel rooms, so it adds up. Monogamy is important to some of us. How do you tell? First ask her if she is willing to be. And ask if she has an IRL boyfriend. If other men are in the mix then you are open to more drama and a higher risk of stds. I prefer monogamy. A hooker will be focused on pay by the hour. If she argues that a PTP amount is only one hour she is a pro. If she already has a room then she is a pro. Assume she will be lying to you until you prove otherwise.

You need to make the first move. Ask her if she would like to have an arrangement with you. If yes then suggest that you get a notel and spend some time together. Remember, they are ther for your money and know that you are there for sex, so at least that part of dating is already a given. Skirting the issue is just a time waster. Bring it up, seal the deal, and hurry off to the FC. Good luck! Nando

As I take my first steps into the SD world, I had a thought. Has anyone here ever converted a pro relationship into a SB relationship? I see many obstacles, though I also see many benefits. I am a semi-regular of a local pro. We have good chemistry and seem to enjoy each other's company. Why do the legwork to find a true SB when I seem to have a potential candidate right under my nose?

I have no problem with P4P, and I don't even care if she maintains her pro status. But what I'd like to do is move her away from the "by the hour" mentality. Easier said than done, I realize, and I can't exactly say this to her as bluntly as I can here.

I would like to spend more time with her and would continue to be as generous as I am able. I think it would be a benefit to us both, as she would have more or less guaranteed allowances, and I would have more or less guaranteed, um, access.

Perhaps this is asking too much of her. After all, I do know she is fairly popular in this area. But I also know that popular is a relative term, and she's probably still living paycheck to paycheck. Can it be done? More important, has it been done?

As always, thank you for your insights.

Regards,

Joe

[QUOTE=JoesParty; 1404955]Has anyone here ever converted a pro relationship into a SB relationship? Can it be done? More important, has it been done?

Joe[/QUOTE]Gentlemen,

When I first read Joe's question, I immediately thought that he was missing the whole point of the SD / SB game, which in my mind is to find and bed hot, young (ish) babies who are emphatically non-pros. If once and a while we mistakenly land a fish that's been in the pond for a while, so to speak, well, it's just the hazards of the sport. (Let me emphasize at this point that I do not want to get into a whole existential discussion here on whether the acceptance of sugar before or after sex makes them all pros; that is an argument of semantics, not intent, and in any case can never be won.)

But then I got to thinking that many of us who have been at this a while have found ourselves seeking something more than 20 something pussy. We find, at least as is true in my case, that we are seeking a connection on an intellectual and emotional level as well as just physical, and why couldn't that be achieved with a pro? The biggest issue I see there is that she may not be looking for the same thing from you, Joe. I have to admit I have not had very much (ok, any) experience in the provider arena, so I have really no idea if there are any out there who are even capable of that kind of separation of professional interest from emotional attachment. We are all human beings, so I suppose it is possible, and perhaps I am selling them short.

On the other hand, I can see a big possibility for Joe getting hurt, and ending up poorer and wiser to boot. I am wondering, and I mean this in the most supportive way, if you are just nervous about what you see you have to do to get these babies into bed, since you say you are shy and a little uncomfortable with this, and so are trying to see if you can more easily convert a relationship you already have into something you want. Think back on the very first meeting you had with a provider. That must have taken some courage to make the call, set up the appointment, and follow through, right? And yet, you did it, and it was fine.

The same thing will happen here, trust me. Somewhat like a provider, these babies know that sex is part of the equation, and they have made their peace with that. It is now up to the two of you to determine how many other variables there will be: gifts, meals, trips, sugar etc.

So while Joe's question should still be very much open for input, I'd like to pose an ancillary one: what is the purpose of the SD / SB pursuit? Is it, as Lit has said, to bring as much pleasure while doing no harm, or something else? Or something more?

Pour yourselves a Scotch, my brothers, and let your eloquence flow.

Scott

Joe, anything is doable for money. It all boils down to her $$ issues and whether she has true affection / attraction for you.

Concerns of a working pro are : 1) Money. Is a private deal off the clock worth the potential lost business by being with you? 2) Money can she still maintain her regular clientele and still keep you on the hook? .3) Money. Do you offer enough to spend extended hours with you? .4) Feelings. If she likes being with you and actually has some affection for you then she will be willing to spend more time aside from the hourly rate. 5) Security. A lot of escorts want financial security of course but also want an IRL relationship. If you can offer her enough $$$ to give her what she wants then she might be willing to be exclusive or cut down dramatically on her list of regular Johns. 6) clients are generally untrustworthy and as such Pros are not used to relying on what men say and promise.

Concerns about a PRO : 1) is she destitute and an endless pit of financial and drama related problems? 2) Is she substance addicted? 3) Is she in trouble with the Law? 4) Is she a sex addict, and therefore unable to ever be satisfied by one guy? 5) STD exposure get her tested and see the results 6) Trust She can call an old John at the drop of a hat and bang him while you are at Burger King getting take out for a romantic dinner together 7) emotional vacuity Many are burned out by life and men ans are incapable of true affection.

Bottom line : Do you truly care if she is still seeing Johns? If not then she will work out an extended program with you that will supplement her already busy calendar. Why wouldn't she? If you develop deepening feelings for her, then you will begin to resent the other 50 guys banging your SB. Just open a line of communication telling her what you want and asking her if she could consider doing that. If she is basically desperate and got into hooking to survive she might want any way out of it to be with only one guy. It's ALL about the money brother Joe. A fav escort I saw a few years ago was going to do that exact thing with a guy but was reassuring me that she would continue to see me on the side. So much for monogamy. The money is just too easy.

I don't want to short circuit this conversation, because I think it is very interesting. But both Scott and Hernando raise interesting points to which I would like to respond.

First: the money issue. Frankly, I don't have a good answer here. It is true that she would be giving up (potential) cash to spend time with me, unless we form such an attachment that she doesn't mind foregoing extra income to spend time with me. But that invariably leads to the second problem: emotions. And while I still believe, based on past experience, that I wouldn't have a problem with her continuing to work as a pro, you never really know, right? I put myself through the wringer with this once before, and, at the end of the day, I believe I came out stronger. But different girl = different circumstances, so who knows? Third: perhaps my shyness IS a hindrance here. I agree that the pro is tempting because she is so, well, familiar. Plus, she always takes the lead, which I love. I need to get outside my comfort zone.

I am still contemplating making the pitch to her, but I am in no rush to do so. Potential employee #1, who you'll recall I interviewed just last night, is already texting me and asking to meet again. I realize it is all part of the dance we do, but it reinforces the idea that she definitely is employee material. I also have set a firm date for interviewing potential employee #2, an early 30s (same age as me) MILF with, at least as shown in her pictures, an absolutely AMAZING rack. All this to illustrate simply that I have a number of other avenues through which to seek my goals, so no need to hurry and make a choice.

Thank you again for your input.

Scott, what Scotch do you drink? I've been trying different single malts and blends, but I always go back to Johnny Walker Black for some reason.

Regards,

Joe

[QUOTE=JoesParty;1404955]Has anyone here ever converted a pro relationship into a SB relationship? I see many obstacles, though I also see many benefits. I am a semi-regular of a local pro. We have good chemistry and seem to enjoy each other's company. Why do the legwork to find a true SB when I seem to have a potential candidate right under my nose?[/QUOTE]Bitter insight time: in most cases, a pro can make you feel like you're The One For Her, but that's not what she really feels. Case in point:

I saw a pro for over a year, usually at least once a month, when we weren't together, we'd be exchanging emails, often several times a day. She told me a lot of stuff, and in the end, that's all it was: stuff. The big party came to a screeching halt one weekend when I'd set up a meet with her, a meet I had to cancel because I had a sudden problem financially and couldn't afford to pay her. To her credit, she'd been open about meets, making sure I knew we met only when I had the $$ she wanted. When I emailed her to tell her I couldn't pay her and would have to cancel, well, a match to gunpowder would not be nearly as extreme a response as what I got from her. After a couple of fairly heated exchanges, she basically told me to do to myself what I'd been doing to her, and my reply was not any less pointed.

Bottom line: you might find that "Hooker with a Heart of Gold", but don't bet on it. I know one now, I've seen her a few times, and she seems to be quite nice woman (even lets me kiss her, though no DFK). Do I think she'll make me her One Steady Date as far as P4P goes? No. I like her, but I know that in the end, I'm probably just an ATM with a the*ck attached to it to her.

Only two ways this is likely to ever happen. 1) You find a pro that is ready to leave the business and wants to do part time work, really digs you (feels something for you which can then lead to emotional entanglements) and wants it to be with you, or 2) you are going to give her as much money as she is making now working full time. Never forget: It's all about the money! Repeat over and over again till it sinks in. The emotions are on your side, not her's. She does whatever she has to do to get our money and hopefully have us come back if she deems us cool.

[QUOTE=Castlerae;1405270]I like her, but I know that in the end, I'm probably just an ATM with a the*ck attached to it to her.[/QUOTE]You are better off going the sb route. It takes time and effort but it does pay off

[QUOTE=Mr Strict;1405490]You are better off going the sb route. It takes time and effort but it does pay off[/QUOTE]In my own defense, the long-term thing I wrote about was very early in my mongering career, and I had very little experience to judge against with her. Then again, the more recent one does not go out of her way to make me feel special, or to tell me as such. Ti's strictly business, but when we're together, well, I can see her relax almost as soon as we get the door closed. I think it's the fact that she knows I'm not going to be super demanding, or ask her to do any strange sh*t, and she knows I like to do what I can to give her a 'good time' too. I'm not looking for, or expecting, any deep connection with her, I just enjoy the meets and (I think) so does she.

Not a bad basis for that sort of business, wouldn't you agree?

After checking with Jackson to make sure it was OK to post, I wanted to share this link:

[url]http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?153577-SeekingArrangement-com-Any-Positive-Reviews[/url]

I ran across this while researching SA and thought it was interesting to read women's candid comments about their experiences with the site. I was pretty surprised at how mercenary some are. But, of course that site is for strippers and I'd kind of expect that from women in that field.

There are some other interesting threads there too. Ones asking for help on extracting max $ from an SD, stuff like that. I'm sure all of us are interested in avoiding these sorts of women, so getting some insight into how they think could be useful.

Since it is late and little else to do, I spent and hour or more reading through all the posts on the stripper site. There is some funny, funny stuff that comes out of these girls mouths.

So since most of you are out bangin your atf and don't have time to comb thru these like I do, I have summarized some of the more notable comments. Some funny, some sad and some downright hostile, but here they are for your reading pleasure and hopefully a few laughs too.

Post # 3: 'All I kept getting was messages to smell my pussy for five bucks. Waste of time. '

Post # 26: 'I joined. But I don't want to have sex with a SD though. Is that realistic? '

Post # 29: 'I'm not into the having sex for money thing. I guess it's because I don't like sex that much to be with an emotionless stranger. Wish I could find an SD without having to be physical with him. '

Post # 30: 'I rarely even fuck my bf so what makes him think I'll fuck him ESPECIALLY for money! HAH! I'm not that damn desperate. '

Post # 63: 'Having a sugardaddy is most comparable to babysitting the most spoiled, rich, bratty child you've ever come across. Seriously. '

Post # 64: 'I get the slick ugly old guys that try and say ill be "generous" and offer you 300$ for a visit. I'm sorry but $300 is NOT generous. '

Post # 67: 'I said we could do dinner for $300 since you're offering me 7% of what I'm asking for. This one asshole said well that's like me saying I'll stick my cock in 7% of the way. '

Post # 69: 'Posted an ad an hour ago and I've only gotten a collection of dick pics from guys so far'

Post # 70: 'wait til you get a response (cock pic included) from someone you know! ' (Hmmm Scott, sound familiar?)

Post # 72: 'They are a bunch of broke want to-be posers trying to get cooch for a couple hundred a month'

Post # 78: 'FYI: When you register with your university email address you get free premium membership. '

Post # 79: 'Plus, I ordered fried pickles which he kept saying his daughter orders all the time'

Post # 87: 'The majority of the dudes on there do seem like doucharoos'

Post # 89: 'The most reliable one so far was the old ugly fat one of course'

Post # 96: 'Fuck free meals, and half the guys are trying to get you drunk and make you instantly consummate the damn arrangement. '

Post # 111: 'There was word that some old fat guy was running around the site posting pictures of his nephew as his own. I mean seriously sad. '

http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/sho...sitive-Reviews

[QUOTE=Varoom;1405878]Since it is late and little else to do, I spent and hour or more reading through all the posts on the stripper site. There is some funny, funny stuff that comes out of these girls mouths.[/QUOTE]Proving again why I never get involved with strippers and other pros. That mindset has been ground into them by their profession, and I want no part of it. Yeah, I'm a cheap bastard, by the standards of many of them - and they have grossly unrealistic expectations of what their looks and "companionship" are worth. The majority of them hate men and sex and / or are on a power trip about men. They do what they do because it feeds that hatred.

[QUOTE=Cantwinlosin;1405997]Proving again why I never get involved with strippers and other pros. That mindset has been ground into them by their profession, and I want no part of it. Yeah, I'm a cheap bastard, by the standards of many of them - and they have grossly unrealistic expectations of what their looks and "companionship" are worth. The majority of them hate men and sex and / or are on a power trip about men. They do what they do because it feeds that hatred.[/QUOTE]Interesting read, thanks for posting that link. I find it fascinating that they a) make money from the sex biz and be) think we are losers because we want to spend money in the sex biz. I'm sure they don't all hate us, but sure is a lot of anger on that board.

Oddly enough, my current fave provider (not an SB) is a super-nice dancer who is happy to do cheap quickies and / or car bbbjs. Just met her, but will ask her next time if I can share her digits for those into that kind of thing. Which I'm guessing is all of us.