"Sugarbabies" / "Arrangements" Amateurs or Not?

[QUOTE=BikeRider;3124271]I agree that we're likely fishing for different types of babies. I reflected on the type of baby I seek, and I realized that I always ask two questions. I ask them if they've dated an older guy previously. I do this to see if there can be a genuine attraction, or are they just seeking $$. The second question I ask is why they've joined SA. Every now and then I get an answer along the lines of "I'm very busy, and I'm tired of dating guys in my age range. They want me to go dutch etc. Etc. ". In other words, they want to wine and dined, and not worry about being stuck with the check nor making the plans. These babies aren't in it for the money. They're in it for the experience. I wouldn't say they're Unicorns, but they are hard to find. You just have to vet properly. As JZ said, you have to be willing to walk away from those that don't match.

I'm not sure I'd agree on your recruitment analogy. There are plenty of stories on this fine forum about guys gifting at the M&G without a trip to the FC and the baby subsequently disappears. The difference is that most M&G are anonymous meetings whereas a recruitment works because the target is well known and afraid of black mail. Babies (in most cases) don't have that fear.[/QUOTE]To me the key is whether I gift them or if they ask for it to meet. In the latter case, I'd be much less willing. I cancelled a M&G from a POT I really wanted to meet and had intended to give what I now realize was a ridiculous $ when, just before it was supposed to happen, she asked me for an even more ridiculous amount. My baby I just posted about taking to the FC. I used intel to find her FB, and learned she loves a particular kind of makeup. At the M&G I (unexpectedly for her) gave her a gift card for that exact makeup. She melted.

Your first question for POTs is very pertinent and I will use that. Your second point doesn't apply much to us married guys, b / c it can be hard to wine and dine with evening dinners when you have a SO expecting you home.

[QUOTE=FarFarAway;3123522]I'll make the observation that I don't think that there are huge differences in the way SDs posting here are approaching or compensating their babies. Part of the difference may be the types of girls we are fishing for. I have come to realize from this thread that a lot of SBs are submissive and a lot of SDs dominant. What fits in better with that than refusing to tell the baby what she's going to get? Actually, it reflects more of a desire to control than to dominate, which are different things with a similar flavor.[/QUOTE]I think you're probably misunderstanding what takes place with the SBs I see. The ones I end up with don't even ask how much they are going to get, so it's not like I'm putting them in some subservient role by not telling them.

Anyone who understands ANYTHING about women will be able to relate to the following truism: Girls can be interested in dating you, or they can be interested in having their hands in your pockets. In sugar dating, at the level of initial expectation, it is usually somewhere in between.

So, the more you can filter out the girls you approach to those who might be able to picture themselves on your arm as more than a paid sex toy, the better off your chances are at encountering babies that don't care as much about sugar. When they don't care as much about sugar, they express this by not bringing up the subject. They are afraid to lose the get the chance to know you.

Very clearly, not all women want to get to know me. Hell, I've had some that flat out said "sorry, you're too old and not really my type". I love to hear that because it means very quickly I can place her in the ignore bin and move on to the next. The faster I can repeat that process, the faster I can line up POTS that do have some genuine attraction to me. I never send them fake pictures, nor do I send them "optimistic" photos where I took 1,000 pics then chose the best 3. I send them photos of me in ordinary situations doing ordinary things. If I don't get a positive response to my photo, I'm already a bit suspicious of whether she even has the potential to be the kind of SB I am looking for.

I can compare their initial response to my photos and benchmark it against how a civy prospect on match would behave. Is it similar? Or is she just trying to cater to my horny sensibilities? I've talked a lot about the value of interacting with strippers. They are an excellent workout for learning to deal with women who are professionals at catering to the male ego. Once you've learned all of their tricks, it's easier to pluck prime fruit from the trees of the bowl.

What I think so many people forget here, is how big the pool of women really is. Does anyone else out there have 75+ different city searches saved in their SA account? I do. They aren't all unique cities, there are duplicate cities but there are variations for each city, with variations refining by race, height, body type, etc. Once you start working that many saved searches, you start to realize how much bigger the scene is than the typical SD perspective.

I would say that the girls I actually interact with and even exchange enough texts / mail with to line up meets do not even represent .5% of the total variations of personality combinations out there. Meaning, there are a lot of girls I never contact. Of the girls I do contact, there are a lot that never respond. Of the ones that do respond, there are a lot that disappoint me by attempting to talk about agreed on amounts up front, or exhibit signs of UTRs, or force me to reject further interaction with them for some other reason.

What this ultimately leads to is that the girls that I actually do take to the fuck chamber end up being an even smaller personality sample size than the .5% that I made a valid pass at. Once it's all filtered down, I'm looking for just a few decent girls in any given metro area. It takes a lot of work to get there but it narrows my girls down to a fraction of a percent of the representative female website population. Are they unicorns? It might seem that way if one is working a single city, or worse a small town. Try opening it up to dozens of cities and you'll find there are a shitload of these unicorns if you're willing to put in the effort and time and know how to attract that type of girl.

So now, anyone who has sat back and said "why am I not meeting these girls"? Its probably because they going after the girls that are not in that fraction of a percent. Their own personal preferences, biases, filtering mechanisms, etc. Have conditioned and tailored the results according to their own way of doing things, their biases, their perceptions, their dating habits. I've read most of the SB blogs in other cities here, and I've seen guys posts pics and SA profile names. Not one single time have I seen a girl I knew mentioned, on the Richmond board or any other city that I sugar date in. Most of these girls that have multiple daddies that know them are by my definition UTR girls. They are not interested in meeting potential boyfriends. Most of the girls I meet are -- at least that's the vibe they give off.

What I do know is that there have been plenty of guys post here, even if they may not post regularly, that have had similar experiences to mine -- girls that are looking for something beyond a quick tryst in a hotel room and are hoping it will turn into something other than a money exchange. It's really not as unique, or complicated, or sinister, or hard to believe as some here would like to make it out. There have been at least 7-8 guys posting here in recent months with similar experiences.

For those who are saying "these girls would never fuck me unless I pay them", the problem is most likely that you are aiming out of your own league. You have 3 choices there, either lower your standards, better yourself, or just resign to the fact that pussy will need to be paid for in cash.

Most of the tips that I've posted in the past are aimed at those who either feel like they're paying too much or want more genuine interest from girls, and are interested in bettering themselves. Clearly they aren't for everyone. Some don't have the time, self-motivation, or even the belief that they could be better. They say the first challenge to making change successfully is to be able to envision yourself after the proposed improvements you'd like to make. If some of these resentful posters cannot picture themselves as anything but a lost cause, they are never going to be able to break out of it and should just get used to the fact that its pay for play or none at all in their case.

[QUOTE=BikeRider;3124271]I agree that we're likely fishing for different types of babies. I reflected on the type of baby I seek, and I realized that I always ask two questions. I ask them if they've dated an older guy previously. I do this to see if there can be a genuine attraction, or are they just seeking $$. The second question I ask is why they've joined SA. Every now and then I get an answer along the lines of "I'm very busy, and I'm tired of dating guys in my age range. They want me to go dutch etc. Etc. ". In other words, they want to wine and dined, and not worry about being stuck with the check nor making the plans. These babies aren't in it for the money. They're in it for the experience. I wouldn't say they're Unicorns, but they are hard to find. You just have to vet properly. As JZ said, you have to be willing to walk away from those that don't match.

I'm not sure I'd agree on your recruitment analogy. There are plenty of stories on this fine forum about guys gifting at the M&G without a trip to the FC and the baby subsequently disappears. The difference is that most M&G are anonymous meetings whereas a recruitment works because the target is well known and afraid of black mail. Babies (in most cases) don't have that fear.[/QUOTE]Not only this, but I'd say the number of guys over the years that have posted positive results from upfront payments are overshadowed by negative experiences on a ratio of somewhere between 5:1 and 10:1. The golden rule about no payment until after the panties drop became mantra here for a reason.

[QUOTE=JZLizard;3124339]Not only this, but I'd say the number of guys over the years that have posted positive results from upfront payments are overshadowed by negative experiences on a ratio of somewhere between 5:1 and 10:1. The golden rule about no payment until after the panties drop became mantra here for a reason.[/QUOTE]Maybe it's just the liberal women in California. Or the heights I've been aiming for in girls. I don't aim to be duped, and I haven't done perfectly, but it's been allright. My very first meet I tried to help her too much and that was a bust, but otherwise I've not had anyone who got any gift at the M&G not go to the FC. A red daddy wants assurance that every dime he pays comes back to him in pussy. A blue daddy is playing the odds, evaluating the prospects, and giving a gift when it seems likely it is going to pay off. Often, I have also used intel to identify the girl, so she is not totally anonymous. But I don't know how that helps me. Other than knowing the thing to give her that touches her personally. Certainly not so I can track her down and ask for sugar back if she didn't fuck me. That's not the point. I gave that to her of my own volition. I could hit a cold streak of course. The videogirl (another Playboy model) I met this morning got a little sugar and has asked for an allowance of 2. 5 K / mo. That can't happen w / me, but I am 99% sure I can get into her pants w / a PPM, her initial proposal. After that, who knows.

Everything was cool. I left and on the way home, she texts nice things then asks if I want to do an arrangement. It gets down to "I don't sleep with with strangers sorry" so my reply was "I don't give money to strangers, sorry".

I also said I am not interested in a girl who wants a money grab. My tactics sort of worked. We will see. I think I am going to probably forget this one.

I responded to a married woman's post on CL. Had some decent exchanges, she sent a partial photo, not really my type. I was also playing with SA POTs and told her that I was going in a different direction. She gets herself a SA profile, which I see as it is new. I am deactivated there a lot of the time but evidently while I was on she saw my profile and put 2 and 2 together. Initially, 'why don't you like me?' I replied I wasn't interested in what she was. She starts sending me irate emails. Then she says that I am a creep, etc. , threatens me by saying I am easy to find. I don't believe that to be the case. I never gave her a phone # and would have been my sugar burner. I got onto SA and both blocked her and reported her (the closest I could find was 'threatening violence' Didn't exactly do that but threatening? - hell yes. Watch out out there. The internet. What a place.

[QUOTE=FarFarAway;3124366]Maybe it's just the liberal women in California. Or the heights I've been aiming for in girls. I don't aim to be duped, and I haven't done perfectly, but it's been allright. My very first meet I tried to help her too much and that was a bust, but otherwise I've not had anyone who got any gift at the M&G not go to the FC. A red daddy wants assurance that every dime he pays comes back to him in pussy. A blue daddy is playing the odds, evaluating the prospects, and giving a gift when it seems likely it is going to pay off. Often, I have also used intel to identify the girl, so she is not totally anonymous. But I don't know how that helps me. Other than knowing the thing to give her that touches her personally. Certainly not so I can track her down and ask for sugar back if she didn't fuck me. That's not the point. I gave that to her of my own volition. I could hit a cold streak of course. The videogirl (another Playboy model) I met this morning got a little sugar and has asked for an allowance of 2. 5 K / mo. That can't happen w / me, but I am 99% sure I can get into her pants w / a PPM, her initial proposal. After that, who knows.[/QUOTE] The bowl couldn't have less in the world to do with politics. So please, don't bring that into the forum. Folks have tried it before. Completely off topic for sugaring.

[QUOTE=FarFarAway;3124553]I responded to a married woman's post on CL. Had some decent exchanges, she sent a partial photo, not really my type. I was also playing with SA POTs and told her that I was going in a different direction. She gets herself a SA profile, which I see as it is new. I am deactivated there a lot of the time but evidently while I was on she saw my profile and put 2 and 2 together. Initially, 'why don't you like me?' I replied I wasn't interested in what she was. She starts sending me irate emails. Then she says that I am a creep, etc. , threatens me by saying I am easy to find. I don't believe that to be the case. I never gave her a phone # and would have been my sugar burner. I got onto SA and both blocked her and reported her (the closest I could find was 'threatening violence' Didn't exactly do that but threatening? - hell yes. Watch out out there. The internet. What a place.[/QUOTE]Some of them are just plain nuts. If they were hot, emotionally stable and intelligent all at the same time they wouldn't be on an SB site to begin with.

[QUOTE=JZLizard;3123254]All I can say is that yes, "dating" them is the key to paying little or none. Just be careful about sharing such taboo subjects on net forums, because some folks will be unable to contain their jealousy and attempt to undermine your credibility in hopes of somehow making your life as sad and miserable as theirs. They will fumble around in their own disbelief that such things can actually occur! Blashpemy! How that can be? It doesn't happen to them, therefore it cannot possibly happen to anyone else. Their only recourse is to attempt to focus their attention on YOUR life, studying you and hoping to find things wrong in your every thought, ignoring their own problems, adding underhanded references to you in Every. Single. Post (tm). And why shouldn't their behavior be a pathetic reflection of their pathetic lives? Its who they are. StalkerFanBoi behavior is deeply rooted in their own insecurity, they wear it on their sleeve. Every time the doctor backs off slightly on their psycho-meds or switches them to a new one, we can expect similarly erratic behaviors.

That said, most of the SBs I am involved with involves some form of dating. I go out clubbing and dancing with them, even though I don't necessarily want to in every case. More than once I've sat there in a club table with people 20-30 years younger than me, smiling and pretending that I wouldn't rather be somewhere else, just to be sure I was giving her the night out on the town she was looking for. I don't blink when she orders one expensive mixed drink, takes four sips of it then discards and orders something else. It's not my preference but it pays off in the sense that after she is properly fucked, she is way more focused more on how much fun she had than how much cash she's going to have in her purse later. Its a different way of sugaring than just scurrying them off to a hotel room for an hour or so of paid sex, but it pays big dividends overall in terms of the cash you give her or at least her expectations for same. And overall I do sometimes enjoy the dating aspect, aside from the occasional times when I'm forced to socialize with her friends from high school or whatever. It's not too bad at my current age because I still look a lot younger than I am. When I'm 70 that might get pretty awkward, maybe I will have outgrown this phase by then. I swear to god I think it's becoming more and more accepted by that age group for the girls to have boyfriends older than their dads. Their friends don't seem to blink an eye. Maybe they've got them too?[/QUOTE]I have found this to be very true out here in LA. The majority of the SB's I look for are young and inexperienced in terms of life experience and they only thing they have spent time on is sex. On more than one occasion I have said to my date, "Order whatever you want. " and they have ordered something very simple. It's the opportunity to able to order anything they want that excites them but they are still intimidated, young, and want to be liked that will keep them from taking you for a ride. Now, I am talking about a certain type. These aren't 10's. Although I did have one incredible afternoon with a gorgeous AF with a body that was mind blowing basically because I bought her a nice, (not crazy expensive) lunch. She wised up after, but so what, that is her choice. She had fun and I had fun and she realized she could get more $ from someone else. Good for her.

[QUOTE=LargeEss;3124828]I have found this to be very true out here in LA. The majority of the SB's I look for are young and inexperienced in terms of life experience and they only thing they have spent time on is sex. On more than one occasion I have said to my date, "Order whatever you want. " and they have ordered something very simple. It's the opportunity to able to order anything they want that excites them but they are still intimidated, young, and want to be liked that will keep them from taking you for a ride. Now, I am talking about a certain type. These aren't 10's. Although I did have one incredible afternoon with a gorgeous AF with a body that was mind blowing basically because I bought her a nice, (not crazy expensive) lunch. She wised up after, but so what, that is her choice. She had fun and I had fun and she realized she could get more $ from someone else. Good for her.[/QUOTE]I too take the "order whatever you want" attitude. Most of these girls I plan for meet for a "night out", and by that I mean I want her to have a good time starting from the first hello and hug until the kiss goodbye the next morning.

Some of the younger ones are so amazed both that they are able to indulge without rules and from the level of sexual activity they receive that they are just star struck about the whole event, texting me for the next week about how they can't get me out of their mind. Those are the girls I like -- it indicates the young and (relatively) innocent.

There are other girls who will tell me flat out "listen I don't need to go to expensive places, I need someone who can help me financially". And those girls get silence from me after I identify who and what they are, because they are a dime a dozen. They don't even think about the fact that an established SD has a price on his own time, in my case the billable hourly rate to my clients is a lot more than an escort would charge a john. The riffraff girls do not value my time and understand that it is a shared endeavor, they only think about what THEY will get out of it in terms of cash allowance. This is why I discard the rats and search for the diamonds even if it takes longer.

I could write back and say "sorry I'm looking for quality girls not Internet sex site roadkill" but there's no real benefit of doing that so I refrain.

[QUOTE=JZLizard;3124817]Some of them are just plain nuts. If they were hot, emotionally stable and intelligent all at the same time they wouldn't be on an SB site to begin with.[/QUOTE]There are exceptions to every rule. My peds baby is all of that. She was on SA to meet a guy that would treat her with respect, understand that she works insane hours, and have the means to wine and dine her. She tried the traditional online sites, but she said she only met losers and posers.

I won't argue that she's a unicorn. She is. Just that there are exceptions.

[QUOTE=BikeRider;3124849]There are exceptions to every rule. My peds baby is all of that. She was on SA to meet a guy that would treat her with respect, understand that she works insane hours, and have the means to wine and dine her. She tried the traditional online sites, but she said she only met losers and posers.

I won't argue that she's a unicorn. She is. Just that there are exceptions.[/QUOTE]I have no doubt met lots of hot ones, some that are hot and smart, and there have been a few that *struck* me as being emotionally stable people. But, even in talking to them about my perception of them, they usually start to reveal things like "oh, you haven't seen me when things get really bad yet", and proceed to tell me about the dark side of their temper or whatever.

Admittedly, my experience may be limited here because I have never LIVED with a sugar baby. But I know one thing, you have to live with them to be able to fully judge if they are an emotionally stable person or not. If you have not been in the same dwelling with them full time through at least 6 menstrual cycles, you don't quite know them yet.

Honestly I've known guys who have been with their wives for 10+ years and did not really get introduced to the full spectrum of their emotional instability until divorce proceedings began.

But yes, I understand what you're saying. My generalization was not necessarily fair, in the sense that it can only possibly be applied to the women I've met on SB sites, and as I pointed out in another message, the women known by one SD is not necessarily representative of all of them. To further complicate matters, terms like "hot", "smart" and "stable" are also subjective in nature and a matter of individual opinion.

[QUOTE=JZLizard;3124810]The bowl couldn't have less in the world to do with politics. So please, don't bring that into the forum. Folks have tried it before. Completely off topic for sugaring.[/QUOTE]Peace, JL. Figuratively speaking.

In my perusing of Tinder and CL I've run across the scam of sending you to a verification site a bunch of times. This was the first time I've seen it on SA and seemed to be for SA's background verification. There were several strange things about her profile. Her ethnicity was listed as Native American, but her pic is a pale white blonde. Her profile talks about looking for a long term relationship, but her first message is asking me to get together to be an "nsa sex buddy" at a luxury hotel she's staying at. That's always a red flag for a scammer. The 3rd tip off is that her grammar was just a touch awkward with strange phrasing of things. Anyway, she of course says to meet I have to get SA's LDS (Local Discreet Stamp of SA). I do notice that SA's background check is with a 3rd party company. Perhaps that company is placing false profiles to scam people into the service.

Good hunting,

Travelin.

[QUOTE=LargeEss;3124828]I have found this to be very true out here in LA. The majority of the SB's I look for are young and inexperienced in terms of life experience and they only thing they have spent time on is sex. On more than one occasion I have said to my date, "Order whatever you want. " and they have ordered something very simple. It's the opportunity to able to order anything they want that excites them but they are still intimidated, young, and want to be liked that will keep them from taking you for a ride. Now, I am talking about a certain type. These aren't 10's. Although I did have one incredible afternoon with a gorgeous AF with a body that was mind blowing basically because I bought her a nice, (not crazy expensive) lunch. She wised up after, but so what, that is her choice. She had fun and I had fun and she realized she could get more $ from someone else. Good for her.[/QUOTE]LS. I would have PMed you with this?, but your mailbox is full. I wondered what that AF acronym was. Asian female, or a typo. I'd also appreciate gleaning from your local knowledge, as you are in near and I am relatively new, so I will review all your old posts.

I M&G w / a girl today w / a 213 area code. Found her from my CL ad. She is now setting up a studio girls can do webcams from. I found one of her ads for girls and it says she was a performer for 6 years. Very pretty, bangin' body, smart, business oriented. I am trying to track down if she was / is someone that whole webcam community knows about. Any suggestions how I go about that? I can't find anything on this site. And I don't know what that would mean for her potential as a SB.