"Sugarbabies" / "Arrangements" Amateurs or Not?

[QUOTE=Doc2016;3117928]Hey all. Just curious as to what all you guys are doing allowance wise? One thing I noticed that seems to get more reception is to speak larger, whole amounts vice per meet amounts. Say you offer a G for 3-4 dates a month. Broken down that's a quarter each visit. But they mostly hear that large number. If you only meet a couple times, you get a lower overall cost. So how do you guys roll with this?[/QUOTE]I've never done the retainer / allowance thing. That said, I have a 100 percent batting average offering $100-$150 for a single date. I admit that I am not scoring the 10/10 models with that, but I have gotten solid 7/8's who provided a great experience.

[QUOTE=JZLizard;3121403]Ok, I misunderstood the situation a bit, I think you did the right thing by meeting with her first at least. The only time I've had a meet and greet, then discussed money, it turned out badly (yes that was a mistake I made exactly one time in the past, never again).

The other times I showed her, via taking her out for a night on the town, that I am very much for real in terms of my ABILITY to give her what she really wants (never confuse ability with willingness). I might be staying in an expensive hotel, I might take her for dinner and drinks at expensive places and burn $200 just on that portion of the date and I might throw the waiter a ridiculously generous tip for doing his job well.

This sends a very clear message to the girl. I can afford to do the above because I'm not just some Walmart door greeter pretending to be successful on the Internet, I am what I say I am and I got here for a reason. Now its up to her to prove she's good enough. By this time she's smart enough to know she's not the only 20 year old in the world who would like to get fucked by me and helped with life's bills. She realizes she is in competition, and that if she fucks the date up she might lose the chance.

So prior to the M&G I tell her let's just meet and see if we have a good time. Then I make sure she has a good time, from the conversation to making sure she orders whatever she wants from the menu and / or goes wherever she wants for a night on the town, to the sex afterwards. Call it micro-spoiling if you want. What is somewhat tricky about it is that I enjoy the dating aspect too, so even if I blow a significant amount of cash on dinner and drinks, she really only benefited from roughly half of that, the other half of the expenses were enjoyed by me.

In bed, I'm not overly focused on what I want to do, but equally focused on what it takes to get her off. That last sentence is what really saves you on the total gift amount and ensures future interest. Solve that problem and it really doesn't matter what you gift them in cash the next morning, they will continue texting you non stop for the next week about how over the top amazing it was and how they can't get it out of their mind.

If they feel like they are there solely to meet your needs, they will bill you for it. If you're meeting THEIR needs, they are way too busy enjoying the moment to to worry about they are getting paid.

In my case, the hotel room is overhead I would have had anyway from traveling, so it would be an expensive hobby if I rolled that into the mix, but since it needs to be paid whether or not I have a girl I don't figure it in to the total.[/QUOTE]Do you offer her a cash gift before she leaves? Based on some of your previous posts, I suspect you do to keep things at "arm's length".

[QUOTE=FarFarAway;3121737]Thanks for the attaboy, Fish, and the encouragement after '1/3 my age' #1. Are there technical details about getting a girl a scrip to those services discretely that you can share? I'm not familiar with them. Some who have ongoing babies are getting instruction from their girls about the new techno world, but I'm not quite there yet. I have another trip to the FC with a model-quality 20's girl next week. Hitting my wallet hard, but I jumped over many other wannabee daddies to get there. Will post the outcome.[/QUOTE]Congrats! I'm not old enough yet to hit the 3 x club yet without going to jail, but the 2. 5 x club has been very very good to me.

You should be able to set it up with a gift card and your sugar email (or theirs). Just make sure and not let it run out while you still have her in the rotation!

[QUOTE=BikeRider;3122037]Do you offer her a cash gift before she leaves? Based on some of your previous posts, I suspect you do to keep things at "arm's length".[/QUOTE]Oh, I always gift them. Even when they act like money is the last thing on their mind and they weren't expecting it, I insist they take it. I just don't get involved in discussions about how much it's going to be, because even I don't know how much the date is going to be worth to me until after its all said and done.

They are always ecstatic with the gift and overall experience and eager to see me next time I'm in their area.

[QUOTE=JZLizard;3122090]Oh, I always gift them. Even when they act like money is the last thing on their mind and they weren't expecting it, I insist they take it. I just don't get involved in discussions about how much it's going to be, because even I don't know how much the date is going to be worth to me until after its all said and done.

They are always ecstatic with the gift and overall experience and eager to see me next time I'm in their area.[/QUOTE]What's the range you typically gift then?

[QUOTE=BikeRider;3122098]What's the range you typically gift then?[/QUOTE]My "target" for a SB is $200, but it can be more depending on circumstances, for example if she drove a long way to meet me, stays all night (multiple fucks), or just turns out to have such a great attitude that I'm inspired to help more. I place a value on how much time we spent together, how much I enjoyed the date overall, her performance / effort / vibe with me, then figure in things like her circumstances and cost of living in her geographical area, etc. And gift from there.

Strippers usually cost a little more for on the spot takeout, because they can fairly easily make a couple of hundred on a single lap dance customer, so sometimes a slightly larger carrot must be dangled.

[QUOTE=JZLizard;3122090]Oh, I always gift them. Even when they act like money is the last thing on their mind and they weren't expecting it, I insist they take it. I just don't get involved in discussions about how much it's going to be, because even I don't know how much the date is going to be worth to me until after its all said and done.

They are always ecstatic with the gift and overall experience and eager to see me next time I'm in their area.[/QUOTE]Funny I've never found a girl from one of the arrangement sites that wasn't interested in what's in it for them before meeting or at the m / g. I find that if they know up front then experience is way better than if they are worried that the guy is to leave nothing or something they feel is appropriate. That is usually the first concern especially if new that some dude is going to fuck them for nothing. Most are here for financial help so that is there main concern starting off. Not sure where your findi g these gems of urs that aren't concerned by there arrangement and aren't expecting any but kudos.

I personally don't talk allowance until the m / g is over and I explain that when they contact me. But common sense dictates that girls needing help are concerned about what your doing for them. They can get fucked for free anywhere they choose and by who they choose. Lots of younger women that civy date older dudes for free but usually you don't find them on an arrangement site.

[QUOTE=BikeRider;3122048]Congrats! I'm not old enough yet to hit the 3 x club yet without going to jail, but the 2. 5 x club has been very very good to me.

You should be able to set it up with a gift card and your sugar email (or theirs). Just make sure and not let it run out while you still have her in the rotation![/QUOTE]Thanks. Its kinda like golf. The older you get the easier it is to shoot your age. Another (anonymous) bowlbuddy who I've taunted (ha!) that he can't match my feats (legally) has been skating on thin ice that's been on earth a couple of years less than twenty. So, hey, for that, you only need to be 54.

Here's another relevant golf quote, don't know from who: Golf is a lot like sex, lots of people want to do it, most aren't very good at it, but they still enjoy it. The bowl has done wonders for my sex life; I recall some old monger posting that he's having the best sex of his life in his 60's, with women he couldn't have imagined fucking when he was their age. Roger that.

[QUOTE=JZLizard;3121403]In bed, I'm not overly focused on what I want to do, but equally focused on what it takes to get her off. That last sentence is what really saves you on the total gift amount and ensures future interest. Solve that problem and it really doesn't matter what you gift them in cash the next morning, they will continue texting you non stop for the next week about how over the top amazing it was and how they can't get it out of their mind.

If they feel like they are there solely to meet your needs, they will bill you for it. If you're meeting THEIR needs, they are way too busy enjoying the moment to to worry about they are getting paid.

In my case, the hotel room is overhead I would have had anyway from traveling, so it would be an expensive hobby if I rolled that into the mix, but since it needs to be paid whether or not I have a girl I don't figure it in to the total.[/QUOTE]Of course, I endorse this idea in any circumstance I am in bed with a woman, but I also recall a profile I saw on SA. Something like 'don't tell me you are going to pay me in orgasms' LOL. I know you, JL, believe strongly in a gift of some size to establish the hierarchy of the arrangement. But of course, it should be the case that a baby elated by the sex may be willing to take less to keep it coming. That seems like an ideal situation. My sample size is small so far, but I've never had a sense my babies were anything less than happy w / our sex, but that hasn't translated to a discount. Maybe I just need the right girl.

[QUOTE=JohnHandCock;3122129]Funny I've never found a girl from one of the arrangement sites that wasn't interested in what's in it for them before meeting or at the m / g. I find that if they know up front then experience is way better than if they are worried that the guy is to leave nothing or something they feel is appropriate. That is usually the first concern especially if new that some dude is going to fuck them for nothing. Most are here for financial help so that is there main concern starting off. Not sure where your findi g these gems of urs that aren't concerned by there arrangement and aren't expecting any but kudos.[/QUOTE]Most of the girls probably are concerned about their arrangement I would imagine, and this of course is what lures them into the bowl to begin with. But what happens next depends on the players. A guy that never had much success in regular civy dating is going to have to get used to paying top dollar for pussy unless he is willing and able to either improve his game or lower his standards. I started working on my game at a very early age, so getting pussy has come easy for me pretty much my entire life. Getting what I want out of the bowl just plays upon that experience. Getting the girls to meet me without discussing money has everything to do with the conversation that takes place between the time I make initial contact with her and the actual date. Getting her into the FC has everything to do with the conversation that takes place at the M&G.

If you pay attention to some of the stuff getting posted here, you realize that the way I play in the bowl is unique. I have not seen a single poster here that has the same modus operandi, philosophies, approaches, or methodologies. Most are vastly different. Thus is stands to reason that those who do things different than me are going to encounter vastly different experiences. I wouldn't expect that someone would be able to just read my posts and go out and duplicate successes. I've been working on my game since I was probably 12-13 years old, and sexually active just as long. You learn a lot about women along a path started that young.

[QUOTE=JohnHandCock;3122129]
I personally don't talk allowance until the m / g is over and I explain that when they contact me. But common sense dictates that girls needing help are concerned about what your doing for them. They can get fucked for free anywhere they choose and by who they choose. Lots of younger women that civy date older dudes for free but usually you don't find them on an arrangement site.[/QUOTE]If they want to get fucked for free, they will with or without an arrangement with an SD, even if the SD thinks they are exclusive. But there are a lot of girls out there that have no desire, free or otherwise, to fuck a jobless kid who still lives with his parents. Women have been physically attracted to older men of higher financial status since the beginning of time, it's really not a new concept. Lots of girls join a SB website as a curiosity exercise, but what happens after they join varies greatly among SDs.

There are probably a lot more girls out there that insist on discussing money up front than those willing to do things my way. Part of my success involves identifying those time-wasters and firing them before they are hired. This allows me to use time more effectively and focus on those who are viable prospects.

[QUOTE=FarFarAway;3122337]Of course, I endorse this idea in any circumstance I am in bed with a woman, but I also recall a profile I saw on SA. Something like 'don't tell me you are going to pay me in orgasms' LOL. I know you, JL, believe strongly in a gift of some size to establish the hierarchy of the arrangement. But of course, it should be the case that a baby elated by the sex may be willing to take less to keep it coming. That seems like an ideal situation. My sample size is small so far, but I've never had a sense my babies were anything less than happy w / our sex, but that hasn't translated to a discount. Maybe I just need the right girl.[/QUOTE]The only way you could get a "discount" is if you already had an established agreed upon price. Once that number has been identified as an expectation, it is usually too late for me to save the situation.

So the situation you're describing is already very far outside the zone of how I do things. If I had a solution for you I would offer it here, but I don't. I just don't discuss price with them, so there is no expectation of payment for a certain amount and therefore logically impossible for a discount of any kind to exist. What is 50% of X, if X has not been defined? If price is agreed on then in my mind it's a loss and not worth saving.

My methods cannot really be selectively combined in piecemeal -- my strategy only works for me if I stick to all the key tenets, the first and most important one being that I don't talk money up front. If I tried to selectively choose the parts of my strategy I like (for example like not agreeing to a price), while ignoring other parts of my strategy (like busting my ass at the gym so that I look my best), it would all fall apart. It's an all-or-none deal.

Bottom line is, girls know when they take one look at you whether they want to fuck you or not. If they don't want to fuck you, compensation is going to have to happen some other way. By not talking money up front, I guarantee that I am meeting a girl that has at least some level of interest in me other than just money (or at least is open-minded enough to consider the bowl a dating scenario and not just an escort service by another name).

In terms of meeting the right girl for this, you have to be willing to let a few go for every one that will materialize into a date. This works well if you're the traveling sort because you're able to be patient about how many legitimate POTS you might have in a given city. For someone working out of a single geographic area, this might be more frustrating because of the opportunity lost in a smaller pool of choices (even one big city is not as large a pool as multiple cities). The fact that I can only play when I travel is also kind of a plus in this regard, because it places limitations on how much time I would have to meet anyway.

For example, if I chat up 10 girls, and 6-7 of those have to be immediately cast aside because they insist on talking allowance up front, and then maybe ultimately I have to narrow it down to 2-3 girls, it's not a problem for me, because it might be a long time before I'm in that city again. The next time I look for POTS it will be a completely new crop of girls and I can start all over again. If I were doing this full time in a single city, just cutting loose that first crop of six girls would probably be incredibly frustrating, but thankfully its a non issue.

It's also important to point out that the hunt is as much fun to me as the sex. That's why I enjoy the challenge of stripper takeout so much. I don't get that vibe from most others here, I feel like most SDs here want as much pussy as possible as cheap as possible. I actually like the challenge, it doesn't bother me to know when I walk in a strip club I am most likely going home alone, nor does it bother me to know that I'm probably going to have to spend 20 hours on an SD site for every hour of sex I actually obtain. I hate shooting fish in a barrel and I love a challenge. I want to weed out the easy girls that sell out for a certain amount. I want to limit my choices to the real gems, the hard to get, the ones that have some genuine attraction to me. Clearly that's not going to be every girl. Some will decide right off the bat I'm not their type, yes they might do it for money anyway, but I want the less traveled roads. I want the girls who decide I'm their type right away and their interest in me transcends payment.

[QUOTE=JZLizard;3122459]The only way you could get a "discount" is if you already had an established agreed upon price. Once that number has been identified as an expectation, it is usually too late for me to save the situation.

So the situation you're describing is already very far outside the zone of how I do things. If I had a solution for you I would offer it here, but I don't. I just don't discuss price with them, so there is no expectation of payment for a certain amount and therefore logically impossible for a discount of any kind to exist. What is 50% of X, if X has not been defined? If price is agreed on then in my mind it's a loss and not worth saving.

My methods cannot really be selectively combined in piecemeal -- my strategy only works for me if I stick to all the key tenets, the first and most important one being that I don't talk money up front. If I tried to selectively choose the parts of my strategy I like (for example like not agreeing to a price), while ignoring other parts of my strategy (like busting my ass at the gym so that I look my best), it would all fall apart. It's an all-or-none deal.

Bottom line is, girls know when they take one look at you whether they want to fuck you or not. If they don't want to fuck you, compensation is going to have to happen some other way. By not talking money up front, I guarantee that I am meeting a girl that has at least some level of interest in me other than just money (or at least is open-minded enough to consider the bowl a dating scenario and not just an escort service by another name).

In terms of meeting the right girl for this, you have to be willing to let a few go for every one that will materialize into a date. This works well if you're the traveling sort because you're able to be patient about how many legitimate POTS you might have in a given city. For someone working out of a single geographic area, this might be more frustrating because of the opportunity lost in a smaller pool of choices (even one big city is not as large a pool as multiple cities). The fact that I can only play when I travel is also kind of a plus in this regard, because it places limitations on how much time I would have to meet anyway.

For example, if I chat up 10 girls, and 6-7 of those have to be immediately cast aside because they insist on talking allowance up front, and then maybe ultimately I have to narrow it down to 2-3 girls, it's not a problem for me, because it might be a long time before I'm in that city again. The next time I look for POTS it will be a completely new crop of girls and I can start all over again. If I were doing this full time in a single city, just cutting loose that first crop of six girls would probably be incredibly frustrating, but thankfully its a non issue.

It's also important to point out that the hunt is as much fun to me as the sex. That's why I enjoy the challenge of stripper takeout so much. I don't get that vibe from most others here, I feel like most SDs here want as much pussy as possible as cheap as possible. I actually like the challenge, it doesn't bother me to know when I walk in a strip club I am most likely going home alone, nor does it bother me to know that I'm probably going to have to spend 20 hours on an SD site for every hour of sex I actually obtain. I hate shooting fish in a barrel and I love a challenge. I want to weed out the easy girls that sell out for a certain amount. I want to limit my choices to the real gems, the hard to get, the ones that have some genuine attraction to me. Clearly that's not going to be every girl. Some will decide right off the bat I'm not their type, yes they might do it for money anyway, but I want the less traveled roads. I want the girls who decide I'm their type right away and their interest in me transcends payment.[/QUOTE]I understand your unique approach, and yes it's not for all or even many of us. You're the Svengali of sugar. There are some lessons to be learned, and practiced. I think it is important to defer as long as possible the discussion of a specific amount. Once that # is out there, it 'anchors' negotiations. This is a well-known phenomena and applies to pricing anything from real estate to raspberries. The delay gives a greater opportunity for the POT to find something else about you she likes. A feeling of personal security she doesn't get from other guys, sexual chemistry, generosity towards children and small animals, fantastic taste in wine, whatever. That will make her agree to a lower allowance, or at least not be insulted if you start at economy. I know I have been offering too much, as I've never been turned down and had to negotiate up or let a girl walk. However, I am also a beauty snob, I have certain expectations for the attractiveness of my babies, and I don't expect them to be cheap just like I don't expect to buy a BMW cheap. Of course sometimes girls start at crazy numbers, b / c if you agree they win. My two current babies, OCHottie and OCCheer, I cut from 1/2 to 1/3 their initial ask. Note, however, that they might have believed I would be willing / able to pay that, otherwise they would never have agreed to M&G. My first, ModelMilf, made me name my number, and when she immediately agreed to it I knew I offered too much. Style-wise, I hate the pay-per-meet idea, b / c it feels too much like an escort, and that's not what I'm looking for (but other guys may not care about that). I want to see a girl repeatedly.

I'm taking OCCheer to the FC first time next week and she's a model - 10/10/? - Hollywood Guy says girls like her in Cali are getting offered thousands just to meet in their first week on the site. I broke the general rule not to give sugar to M&G, but guess what, she did meet me (and not all the other guys messaging her, and I didn't give her that, just a VS gift card) and she decided I was 'cool', so we go to the FC, and she wants PPM. She tried to anchor me with reports of a whale she dated who gave her $1 K / meet. Maybe, but she also described him unflatteringly. Needless to say, I can't afford that and offered a fraction (but w / a 'signing bonus' after the first time if we continue. I want to get into her at least once). If she's a dud in bed, well, I TOFTT, but it's only once. I like and use the HWG approach of saying that all sugar dating has multiple elements (name 5 or 6 including $ and sex) and the balance among them is different for different people. I know guys who help babies with their homework. Of course they should get a 'discount' for that.

I have a CL ad running in an inland county where sugar prices are more modest than on the coast, to try to make my limited access to cash last longer. Today I got a message w / a video attached of a hot 23 YO in lingerie. Stunning. She really knows nothing of SA and obviously hasn't been on the blogs where all the babies do what we are doing here. She started at PPM, and I pushed back through several iterations. She has already agreed to M&G and acknowledges that she 'doesn't know how this whole thing works'. I'll be all too happy to teach her how it works for me, and it might even be better for her than she imagined going in. I know it will be better for me.

BTW, I don't have my full photo on SA as it seems too risky for a married guy, but I try to get one to credible POTs early on to eliminate a lot of wasted time if she just can't see herself doing me. I mean, I'm a balding 60's. Not universally appealing, but enough to the right ones that I'm getting laid here. The babies are so phone oriented, not email oriented, I have learned about sending email messages to cell phones. I don't have my photo on my phone b / c it's not smart, and I also have to clean my photos of the EXIF data that could divulge personal info. So, they are only on my computer.

JHandcock, I got to say, my experience has been similar to yours. Most pots I meet want some sort of assurance that they are going to be taken care of financially. They can meet an older distinguished guy on Match. The purpose of SA is to find a guy who is willing to provide financial help. I've found a few exceptions to that rule, but those exceptions usually only exist in cases like HoyaSvnFgrs, or Bike Riders. What I mean here is that a pot on SA might be willing to date a guy with no discussion of allowance, but it's almost always only when the guy offers the possibility of a real relationship (I. E. Hoyasvnfgr) or long term spoiling with trips, gifts, and lavish dinners (I. E. Bikerider).

I've met more than my fair share of ladies in the bowl, and all of them either flat out refuse to do one time dates with guys who are passing through town, require a pay per date allowance that rivals the highest of high end escorts, or are utr / pros. The latter two sets will always require a discussion of allowance either before the m&g or shortly thereafter, but always before the fc.

Moreover, the pool of pots in the bowl is relatively limited. I've found that I've needed to take extended breaks (which is why I play other variants of the sugar bowl from time to time) because the pool gets stale. I think any player in the bowl realizes it's a numbers game. That being said, a semi decent looking hot baby who is on SA and doesn't require some sort of discussion of allowance before the fc is truly a rare find. A unicorn perhaps? Of course I guess some guys have all the luck and find these unicorns on a regular basis? Then again, it could just be that I lack any game.

But like you said, common sense dictates a lot of the rules we're all constrained by in the bowl. I always find it amusing when I'm asked to suspend my common sense.

[QUOTE=JohnHandCock;3122129]Funny I've never found a girl from one of the arrangement sites that wasn't interested in what's in it for them before meeting or at the m / g. I find that if they know up front then experience is way better than if they are worried that the guy is to leave nothing or something they feel is appropriate. That is usually the first concern especially if new that some dude is going to fuck them for nothing. Most are here for financial help so that is there main concern starting off. Not sure where your findi g these gems of urs that aren't concerned by there arrangement and aren't expecting any but kudos.

I personally don't talk allowance until the m / g is over and I explain that when they contact me. But common sense dictates that girls needing help are concerned about what your doing for them. They can get fucked for free anywhere they choose and by who they choose. Lots of younger women that civy date older dudes for free but usually you don't find them on an arrangement site.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=IluvSmellyFish;3122561]JHandcock, I got to say, my experience has been similar to yours. Most pots I meet want some sort of assurance that they are going to be taken care of financially. They can meet an older distinguished guy on Match. The purpose of SA is to find a guy who is willing to provide financial help. I've found a few exceptions to that rule, but those exceptions usually only exist in cases like HoyaSvnFgrs, or Bike Riders. What I mean here is that a pot on SA might be willing to date a guy with no discussion of allowance, but it's almost always only when the guy offers the possibility of a real relationship (I. E. Hoyasvnfgr) or long term spoiling with trips, gifts, and lavish dinners (I. E. Bikerider).

I've met more than my fair share of ladies in the bowl, and all of them either flat out refuse to do one time dates with guys who are passing through town, require a pay per date allowance that rivals the highest of high end escorts, or are utr / pros. The latter two sets will always require a discussion of allowance either before the m&g or shortly thereafter, but always before the fc.

Moreover, the pool of pots in the bowl is relatively limited. I've found that I've needed to take extended breaks (which is why I play other variants of the sugar bowl from time to time) because the pool gets stale. I think any player in the bowl realizes it's a numbers game. That being said, a semi decent looking hot baby who is on SA and doesn't require some sort of discussion of allowance before the fc is truly a rare find. A unicorn perhaps? Of course I guess some guys have all the luck and find these unicorns on a regular basis? Then again, it could just be that I lack any game.

But like you said, common sense dictates a lot of the rules we're all constrained by in the bowl. I always find it amusing when I'm asked to suspend my common sense.[/QUOTE]Agreed, Fish. This thread is a mix of a lot of stuff, including a brag sheet + mutual assistance / advice. I don't mind hearing about other's success and escapades, b / c sometimes there's a lesson in there for me. I also appreciate the genuine support I get (just got, in fact) from my bowl brothers on my own successes. It might be helpful, however, to limit references to those traits / strategies (like a 24" pianist, if you recall that old joke) that are unique to a particular SD.

Not from Rva, but close in Va. Thinking about sa and am gleaning info! Close to getting out of SO situation, but still like the venue of sa. Thanks for differing views! Cheers!