"Sugarbabies" / "Arrangements" Amateurs or Not?

[QUOTE=JohnHandCock;3030253]K you lost me. Your first paragraph has me confused. If your providing financial aid that is an arrangement. Now if your just dating them and randomly give her assistance without her asking for anything that to me is civy dating. If that's the case then good for you but how does that fall under a sb thread? I know everyone here has a different definition of a sb but if I'm dating a girl and randomly helping with $$ without her asking I would classify her as my gf, not a sb.[/QUOTE]If the definition of civy dating is to give them sugar without a pre-agreed on amount, almost all my SBs are civy because I never tell them how much I will giving them. When I use the term civy dating here in this thread, I'm talking about girls I either never paid anything other than normal dating expenses like buying her drinks, or maybe I did randomly give her money here or there but there was no expectation that this was what attracted her to me. To me a civy girl is someone I find through a regular dating website or just meet her at a bar / club etc.

My typical SB approach is no pre-agreed on amount, then I gift them on each date. They know they are getting the gift and that this was the whole purpose of us meeting on an SD site, but at least on the first date, they are either putting a certain amount of trust in me that I just won't hand them twenty bucks or something insulting, or maybe they are just fucking me the first time purely on appeal. Yes there are those who insist on discussing money up front but I usually go dark on those before we ever get started. If they aren't attracted to me without nagging for money before I've ever met them then I'm not interested, plenty of other girls out there.

But even my typical SB wouldn't be considered "random" payment. It's expected on their part and should be. Random would be if I'm dating someone a couple of months and she runs into a hardship like car repair or something and I pick up the tab.

The exception to all this is stripper takeout, where its all about negotiating up front (they are making too much money at the club to take time off work to fuck a random stranger so its not happening for free, at least not if you want it on the same night they're working). But I don't consider stripper takeout to be SB or civy (although either one can end up that way).

To me the term civy implies no money expectation at all. I guess we all have our own definitions.

The basis of marriage is sex and financial support. A marriage is not "official" until consummated and sex outside the marriage is grounds for divorce. Most women still expect financial support in a marriage and financial problems is also one of the primary causes of divorce. Many women look to date a man that has resources to treat them well and would be date them if they didn't. You could argue they are SB's as well.

My point is don't judge another man's definition of an SB. I understand by your your definition you would consider them an SB. I have stopped payment with SB'S and they have continued to see me. I would help them at times, just like I would any woman I was dating who truly needed, but didn't expect, help.

[QUOTE=JohnHandCock;3030758]A sb and gf definition is pretty clear for me. A sb there is an arrangement in place that both have agreed to. A gf is someone you date without her expecting financial help. Now if you want to help out randomly that tickles her to death and much appreciated. If you have a sb that you think is a gf take the sugar away. If she is still there you got a gf and congrads. Most are going to be gone. Now the girls on the sites are there for financial help 99% of them. That why we are members because of variety and ease of finding them. For me to try and cultivate a sb from a real life situation is just to time consuming, much easier and faster finding a gf.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Madaboutmax;3030902]The basis of marriage is sex and financial support. A marriage is not "official" until consummated and sex outside the marriage is grounds for divorce. Most women still expect financial support in a marriage and financial problems is also one of the primary causes of divorce. [/QUOTE]Not only this, but lack of sex is generally considered legal grounds for divorce (without getting into individual states interpretation). Therefore, traditional marriage in itself is an arrangement by definition, and one could say that money cannot be the distinguishing factor when comparing an SB to a girlfriend to a traditional wife, because so many wives expect financial support as part of that arrangement.

In fact, because infidelity is also grounds for divorce, a cheating wife is technically closer to being a hooker than an SB who accepts an allowance from an SD but is exclusive to him, it's just that she's usually bleeding the hubby for financial support while whoring around with someone else and violating terms of the arrangement.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;3030805]If the definition of civy dating is to give them sugar without a pre-agreed on amount, almost all my SBs are civy because I never tell them how much I will giving them. When I use the term civy dating here in this thread, I'm talking about girls I either never paid anything other than normal dating expenses like buying her drinks, or maybe I did randomly give her money here or there but there was no expectation that this was what attracted her to me. To me a civy girl is someone I find through a regular dating website or just meet her at a bar / club etc.

My typical SB approach is no pre-agreed on amount, then I gift them on each date. They know they are getting the gift and that this was the whole purpose of us meeting on an SD site, but at least on the first date, they are either putting a certain amount of trust in me that I just won't hand them twenty bucks or something insulting, or maybe they are just fucking me the first time purely on appeal. Yes there are those who insist on discussing money up front but I usually go dark on those before we ever get started. If they aren't attracted to me without nagging for money before I've ever met them then I'm not interested, plenty of other girls out there.

But even my typical SB wouldn't be considered "random" payment. It's expected on their part and should be. Random would be if I'm dating someone a couple of months and she runs into a hardship like car repair or something and I pick up the tab.

The exception to all this is stripper takeout, where its all about negotiating up front (they are making too much money at the club to take time off work to fuck a random stranger so its not happening for free, at least not if you want it on the same night they're working). But I don't consider stripper takeout to be SB or civy (although either one can end up that way).

To me the term civy implies no money expectation at all. I guess we all have our own definitions.[/QUOTE]We can agree that a civy gf doesn't expect money. For me and probably 98% of the girls on a site a sb is expecting financial help. They can get dick anywhere for free. Now for me the arrangement is figured out at the m / g if there is a connection. If everything is figured out prior to FC that alleviates the girl from worrying about being compensated, worring about some one determining what she is worth, or being entirely stiffed. These girls can tell some horrendous stories of this. All this is taken care of before the FC. For me any sex worker is not considered a sb. I guess my standsrds of a sb is higher than most here. My sb's come exclusively through a site as I don't have the time to find them a conventional way. If I'm doing it the conventional way they become a gf, why convert them to a sb.

[QUOTE=Madaboutmax;3030902]The basis of marriage is sex and financial support. A marriage is not "official" until consummated and sex outside the marriage is grounds for divorce. Most women still expect financial support in a marriage and financial problems is also one of the primary causes of divorce. Many women look to date a man that has resources to treat them well and would be date them if they didn't. You could argue they are SB's as well.

My point is don't judge another man's definition of an SB. I understand by your your definition you would consider them an SB. I have stopped payment with SB'S and they have continued to see me. I would help them at times, just like I would any woman I was dating who truly needed, but didn't expect, help.[/QUOTE]I said the gf and sb definition was clear for me. Everyone has their own definition as you can see and read from the sb threads here. My standards are higher than most here apparently. I'm not looking for any sex workers by trade whether pros to swers posting profiles.

Anyone seen her? Guessing utr for $$$ she wanted.

[URL]https://www.seekingarrangement.com/member/e8d0ee62-a97a-25af-5b72-d59e9acf706a[/URL]

[QUOTE=JohnHandCock;3031013]My sb's come exclusively through a site as I don't have the time to find them a conventional way. If I'm doing it the conventional way they become a gf, why convert them to a sb.[/QUOTE]If a guy has an wife or is in a LTR, he is crazy to get involved with a conventional, civy, or unpaid GF (what ever we call them).

The financial help is what constitutes the agreement. Hush money. I don't care if I can get it for free or not, I'm going to gift her to create that wall of separation and remind her what our meetings are about.

I agree in ways with all of you gentlemen. The parallels between SBs and SOs have also been on my mind since hopping into the bowl. My SO, despite serious faults, is quite beautiful and would be considered a catch. I would say if she were a SB she would have GPS. And, believe me, I pay through the nose for her. So, I am already accustomed to the idea of 'getting what you pay for' - Hollywood Guy would never give the sugar I do, but my SB surpasses many. Some guys drive Chevys, I like the German cars. There is tremendous irony here.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;3031451]If a guy has an wife or is in a LTR, he is crazy to get involved with a conventional, civy, or unpaid GF (what ever we call them).

The financial help is what constitutes the agreement. Hush money. I don't care if I can get it for free or not, I'm going to gift her to create that wall of separation and remind her what our meetings are about.[/QUOTE]Agreed. Or go to an escort, who is also getting hush money. In my view, though, a SB is superior to escorts b / c I don't have to think about how many hundreds / thousands of guys have been there before me (if I keep to my standards), and b / c there is the potential of a genuine connection, it might be cheaper (despite the fact that she will never know who I really am).

I did not mean to get us off track and starting at SB101 with the definition of a SB. I just wanted to answer a profile question that was asked to me by multiple people. So let's get back on track here.

After having a rather busy 5 days trying to please two women, I decided I'd better let one of them go. So I got rid of the one I had spent the least amount of time with. She was not happy, but it dramatically cut my expenses down and I get more time with the younger, hotter one anyway.

The Stewardess is about to get bounced too as she's requesting way too many funds way too early without enough tokens built up to cash in. So we'll see how this goes, how much she ignores me after telling her no I'd not support more fallout from your bad financial decisions. I have a backup raring to go, I just need to give the green light. She'll be one a week minimum for $500 per month.

BigTigg.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;3031451]If a guy has an wife or is in a LTR, he is crazy to get involved with a conventional, civy, or unpaid GF (what ever we call them).

The financial help is what constitutes the agreement. Hush money. I don't care if I can get it for free or not, I'm going to gift her to create that wall of separation and remind her what our meetings are about.[/QUOTE]First paragraph; its a roll of the dice, a chance your taking on any of these girls unless they are sex workers. If you have a so or ltr that's the chance you take by your choice to play. If caught the so would probably take it better if it was. A civy gf rather than knowing your paying for pussy. Any SO that has a shred of self worth is going to bounce you whatever the case is free or paid.

2nd paragraph. Your right the financial part constitutes the arrangement. Most of these girls are just looking for help, not a bf. Does the arrangement create a wall of separation to remind them of their place. Most know their place, you can read that in their profiles as they complain about guys not knowing what a sd / sb relationship is. Most know what is required but the complaint is about the guy wanting to date them without help or getting attached to them. From the complaints I've read on these threads from guys complaini g about the sb not being friendly enough or getting the GFE from them, not texting enough and on and on its more likely of the guy getting attached rather than the girl.

[QUOTE=JohnHandCock;3031703]First paragraph; its a roll of the dice, a chance your taking on any of these girls unless they are sex workers. If you have a so or ltr that's the chance you take by your choice to play. If caught the so would probably take it better if it was. A civy gf rather than knowing your paying for pussy. Any SO that has a shred of self worth is going to bounce you whatever the case is free or paid.[/QUOTE]I think you may be misunderstanding the risk I've been speaking of here, so I will clarify. I'm not talking about the risk of the SO finding out (in isolation), I'm talking about the risk of the SB (compared to an emotionally invested girlfriend) taking steps to get more deeply involved in your personal life (against your wishes), whether its breaking up your marriage or having your baby or whatever. The risk of the SO finding out is part of the risk, but there can be career implications, financial implications, time wasting implications etc. of having a female turned obsessive on you. I have a long history of otherwise normal-seeming girls turned stalker on me, and I don't need that kind of shit interfering with a long-term-relationship I've spent many years building.

When you use money to create sort of a boss / personal assistant relationship between you and the girl, you reduce the chances of her latching onto you emotionally, falling in love, etc. If she gets emotionally attached to you, you've introduced a new risk dynamic. You know what they say about a woman scorned. If she falls for you she's not going to let you go easily. I don't want that kind of obligation so by paying her I'm reminding her she is my paid play toy.

[QUOTE=JohnHandCock;3031703]
2nd paragraph. Your right the financial part constitutes the arrangement. Most of these girls are just looking for help, not a bf. Does the arrangement create a wall of separation to remind them of their place. Most know their place, you can read that in their profiles as they complain about guys not knowing what a sd / sb relationship is. Most know what is required but the complaint is about the guy wanting to date them without help or getting attached to them. From the complaints I've read on these threads from guys complaini g about the sb not being friendly enough or getting the GFE from them, not texting enough and on and on its more likely of the guy getting attached rather than the girl.[/QUOTE]Yes the arrangement absolutely creates a wall of separation. I've used this technique for decades before the SD sites were even born. As soon as you become a financial provider instead of an emotional provider, it makes it easier to detach from her because all you have to do is stop the money flow. Stopping the flow of real feelings from the heart is infinitely more difficult and time consuming (and if you're in a marriage or relationship with someone else, incredibly risky). That's just common sense "Women 101" and understanding the female mind, IMO.

There is another huge sexual benefit to all this. Some of these girls appreciate the wall of separation as much as we do. It allows them to not think of their sex partner as a boyfriend, and try out all their kinks and fantasies without fear of judgement. They will fuck a sugar daddy way more intensely than they will an age appropriate boyfriend. They've been conditioned to "care too much" about what the guy thinks of them. If it's just an SD hookup, they look at the encounter as "just sex", no emotions. Therefore "anything goes". All the naughty shit they always wanted to try but were afraid of being judged can now be explored. I'm sure some of them do the same with random hookup apps like Tinder, but they aren't likely to satisfy their "daddy kink" that way. And yes, that's the actual term some of them call it. I've seen these girls openly talk on Facebook about having a daddy kink and not wanting to be judged for their preference for dating older men -- I've seen them discuss it openly for all their friends and family to see.

[QUOTE=FarFarAway;3031462]Agreed. Or go to an escort, who is also getting hush money. In my view, though, a SB is superior to escorts b / c I don't have to think about how many hundreds / thousands of guys have been there before me (if I keep to my standards), and b / c there is the potential of a genuine connection, it might be cheaper (despite the fact that she will never know who I really am).[/QUOTE]Yes, escorts are even less risky than SBs in this regard. I've never been much of an escort mongerer but I do know in that scene they are almost never emotionally invested in their customers. SBs do get emotionally invested, sometimes, even with payment, but it is completely manageable.

The only guys who should ever flip an SB to a free girlfriend are those who have nothing to hide (no SO). I know there are some brothers on here that are going through a divorce or for whatever reason do want the overall companionship and emotional involvement of a real GF, and in those cases there's nothing wrong with converting an SB to a freebie (probably only makes financial sense to do so). I personally think all SBs are somewhat damaged goods and would not make good long-term partners (for me), so I wouldn't do it personally, but I'm also aware how vastly experiences can vary here and not all SBs are the same (far from it).

[QUOTE=BigTigger;3027531]Get a MC / Visa gift card. You can buy them for up to $500. All you need is to register a zip code online and you don't have to use your own. I have a real residential address that I just found on Google Maps. I use that address and zip code for all my online hobbying activities. You can also use the gift cards when you are out to hide buying two movie tickets, larger than normal meal purchases, etc.

BigTigg.[/QUOTE]After months of using anonymous MC and Visa Gift cards to renew my SA membership, suddenly they are not accepting them any more. Is anyone else having this issue?

I even tied these gift cards to a Paypal account, and it won't take that either?

Can someone suggest another anonymous way to pay?

I'm reminded of an old phrase: "I don't need to pay women to sleep with me, but I do pay them to leave me".

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;3031997]Yes, escorts are even less risky than SBs in this regard. I've never been much of an escort mongerer but I do know in that scene they are almost never emotionally invested in their customers. SBs do get emotionally invested, sometimes, even with payment, but it is completely manageable.

The only guys who should ever flip an SB to a free girlfriend are those who have nothing to hide (no SO). I know there are some brothers on here that are going through a divorce or for whatever reason do want the overall companionship and emotional involvement of a real GF, and in those cases there's nothing wrong with converting an SB to a freebie (probably only makes financial sense to do so). I personally think all SBs are somewhat damaged goods and would not make good long-term partners (for me), so I wouldn't do it personally, but I'm also aware how vastly experiences can vary here and not all SBs are the same (far from it).[/QUOTE]