"Sugarbabies" / "Arrangements" Amateurs or Not?

[QUOTE=Madaboutmax;2960662]It was after I jad known them for a while and we had transitioned to more of a boyfriend / girlfriend relationship. We did a lot of sexual experimentation that ultimately included sex videos for our own entertainment. They often sent nudes or short clips while we were apart. I agree that it would be much more difficult on the first or second date with a purely SB relationship. A level of trust needed to be built. I've always kept the pics and videos confidential.[/QUOTE]Because of my LTR, I'm not able to maintain anything ongoing with these girls, so it makes building trust a bit difficult. I really miss the days before revenge porn and all the disgruntled boyfriends and oversharing fucking things up for the rest of us. This topic made me realize I really need to do something about converting the old tapes I made to digital format, tape doesn't last forever.

[QUOTE=JohnHandCock;2960584]Most women like posing for camera or self videos. The sex video is a little different. If the sugar is sweetened the greed gets the best of them. Others such as the college girls all probably have a few floating around but when it comes to making one with much older guys they wouldn't think of it. Then there is the wild and crazy who like to document everything they do sexually. Now most of these aren't the 10's that most of you seem to look for but they are there. A true sb will allow this after you have proven your going to be there for her over time.

This is something you could add in your profile. It will turn some off, draw utr and pros who see it as a cash opportunity, and attract those who like to be filmed. That starts the job of weeding out the unwanted but that's half the fun.[/QUOTE]I also find that most young women today have no problem with stills or videos. I photograph and video all of my SB Bunnies. A few of them have requested annonymity but most don't care one way or the other. I usually mask their faces not because they have asked me to but because I see no need to fully expose their identities publicly. Pics are just a way to literally "flesh out" the written experience.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;2960272]A comment, then a question. First let me say these two young ladies have that "100% USDA Certified UTR" look about them Did you meet them on a sugar site or CL?[/QUOTE]I don't care for sugar sites. I prefer to hunt on CL, dating sites and sometimes even in person. I enjoy the process of converting them into what I want. Charm can be a wonderful ally. SB or UTR? If they are regular and paid and a personal connection develops then they are SBs to me.

[QUOTE=PartyTimeGuy;2961251]I don't care for sugar sites. I prefer to hunt on CL, dating sites and sometimes even in person. I enjoy the process of converting them into what I want. Charm can be a wonderful ally. SB or UTR? If they are regular and paid and a personal connection develops then they are SBs to me.[/QUOTE]I actually think the civvy dating sites (Match, POF, etc.) produce some of the best SB pussy available, especially if you want to find those who are just on the brink of realizing they are more attracted to older guys, or have a daddy-kink they want to explore or whatever, but haven't really thought much about the specifics of allowance, and haven't yet had their thoughts polluted by all the SB blogs and sugar related readings.

But, from the perspective of a part-time SD like me, hunting in those woods can be A LOT of work. And it comes with the risk of higher emotional attachment from them, which I don't need in my life right now. But yeah I think the gold standard of SBs are still on that site and have yet to discover SA and such. When I was able to devote more time to those sites, I didn't have to mess with the relatively high membership fees of SD. Also there were pretty much zero pro/UTR crap to deal with on dating sites.

I'm sure there's some gold to be found on CL too, but there's so much sketchiness there its hard to weed through it all. I never found 10s on CL.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;2961407]I actually think the civvy dating sites (Match, POF, etc.) produce some of the best SB pussy available, especially if you want to find those who are just on the brink of realizing they are more attracted to older guys, or have a daddy-kink they want to explore or whatever, but haven't really thought much about the specifics of allowance, and haven't yet had their thoughts polluted by all the SB blogs and sugar related readings.

But, from the perspective of a part-time SD like me, hunting in those woods can be A LOT of work. And it comes with the risk of higher emotional attachment from them, which I don't need in my life right now. But yeah I think the gold standard of SBs are still on that site and have yet to discover SA and such. When I was able to devote more time to those sites, I didn't have to mess with the relatively high membership fees of SD. Also there were pretty much zero pro/UTR crap to deal with on dating sites.

I'm sure there's some gold to be found on CL too, but there's so much sketchiness there its hard to weed through it all. I never found 10s on CL.[/QUOTE]For older guys (60's) POF is a bust. You won't find anything under 45 interested in you. I have it in my profile that I'm looking for much younger women and nada. The only mention of a sd was from a 45 yo woman in her profile but I was blo ked by age range LOL.

CL is pure utr or pros so that doesn't work. The sa site has become a haven for the utr, pro, stripper but its still the best and fastest place to find a true sb. Now if you have the time find a civy girl and help her with her bills if you have the need to pay. They greatly appreciate a guy who helps them out. Funny how paying makes mo ngers feel like they can move on because of something simple but we expect them to show us a GFE.

[QUOTE=JohnHandCock;2961582]For older guys (60's) POF is a bust. You won't find anything under 45 interested in you. I have it in my profile that I'm looking for much younger women and nada. The only mention of a sd was from a 45 yo woman in her profile but I was blo ked by age range LOL.
[/QUOTE]The thing is that POF (as well as Match and most other dating sites) are mostly geared toward age-appropriate dating, so its a matter of learning to cheat the system so to speak. I haven't used POF in a while so I'm not sure how things may have changed, but the key back then was to simply create a profile that lied about your age. How young should you label yourself? I would say probably no more than 5 years less than you actually look. So yes, it work to the advantage of those that look a lot younger than they are, and if you're 65 you should not expect repeated success going for 25 year olds (first of all because they can set their filter so that you can't even see them). However, if you're a 65 year old that looks 55, change that to 50 and you might be surprised. I would say expecting more than 20 year age difference might be stretching it but remember to calculate from your perceived age and not your real one. LOL. There are some late 20's and early 30's women out there in civy land that are definitely worth your time, often delivering better sex with less financial expectation. Across the board I waited a few days to start revealing my true age and all that, and that was only because I was finding girls that weren't just looking for a cash grab they were more like needy fuck buddies, so in order to have ongoing fuck buddies I needed to let them into my life and be somewhat available to them on a "real" level (knowing my real name and age, etc). Last time I did this was when my GF and I split up for a few months so I regularly had POF girls over to my place. But the trick was to kind of present yourself as a potential SD without directly saying that's what you're looking for. They know the deal. And you'll know it too if they continue talking to you.

Now Match is kind of interesting because as long as the girl sets her upper desired age range, you will still get flagged as potential matches for her (you set your age range low, she sets hers high). So usually contacting them is not a problem. This is actually a good feature of match because when they are like 26 and they list their age range as 18-70, then its a strong indication that for whatever reason they may be in the early stages of developing a sugar daddy itch. Most of the time the wide age range is intentional.

Honestly with both methods you can't expect a lot of under 25 year olds, but the quality of sex in the 25-35 year old age group should never be underestimated. And do not confuse "typical" results with "possible". I once hooked an 18 year old cheerleader just out of high school on Match, no talks of financial support, just working game and got her to the point of saying "sure, I'll go out with you". She was 45 minutes away and I had so many projects in flux in never happened, I cut the line, but it would have happened if I weren't too busy.

Now, the level of effort and patience it takes sometimes is a whole different ballgame. These days I need the convenience of SD sites and the relatively low chance of emotional attachment or interference with my life. One method is free or cheap but a lot of work and the other method is more expensive but less work. Its just a trade off. Also the way you do it changes with civy sites. For example catfishing with fake pics might work on SD sites, but its a bad strategy for civy sites.

Apparently POF has changed quite a bit. I'm not fishing for miracles, but mid 30's to mid 40's and most of them have age range. Catfishing and lying have never been my strong suit so I don't play in that pool. Most of the younger women have in their profile that if your trying to buy them to move on LOL. So guess they have had plenty of guys running the sd game on them.

[URL]Match.com[/URL] have no experience with at all. Now sd4 me and sa quite abit. No doing the age game on these it really doesn't matter if all the sb is after the cash. The real girls have a problem with the fake pics and old pics just the same as we do. Even on these sites do I rarely contact anyone under 30. I'm not in the need of the 18-22 drama and flakes that go with the young girls. The youngest has been 23, contacted by her. She was a sweetheart with head screwed on right. Going to school and part time job, living at home. But at ripe old age of 23 had been in the game for a couple of years. Now she was more or less utr like most of these girls now. She will never be on CL or any escort page but has found that she can come back to the arrangement sites when in financial need.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;2960272]A comment, then a question. First let me say these two young ladies have that "100% USDA Certified UTR" look about them Did you meet them on a sugar site or CL?

But, SB vs UTR discussion and all that side, the fact that they're posing for the cam is something I've wanted to discuss here. What kind of reaction are other brothers getting from SBs if you try to photograph or film them (sexually I mean)?

[/QUOTE]Most of my babies will sext me (without faces most of the time). Few of them will agree to a video (even the super bi ones are against it), and those that have want to watch it and then see me delete it. My babies are usually in professional school (or heading there), or working in a high end job.

My guess is all of them know the ramifications of a sex video surfacing years later once they've hit their stride in their career. It is also why I am attracted to them: class and brains.

[QUOTE=BikeRider;2961986]Most of my babies will sext me (without faces most of the time). Few of them will agree to a video (even the super bi ones are against it), and those that have want to watch it and then see me delete it. My babies are usually in professional school (or heading there), or working in a high end job. My guess is all of them know the ramifications of a sex video surfacing years later once they've hit their stride in their career. It is also why I am attracted to them: class and brains.[/QUOTE]What's weird is I've had girls sext me full nudes, usually not with face but they will send them back to back with photos that do show face (can easily be matched to same girl via tattoos or similar), and often they will send prior to ever meeting me (so they send these out to all the guys I'm sure).

But, those same girls put up a wall when I talked about doing an amateur porn shoot. I get the impression it's the lack of control of situation that scares them. If they decide to take a selfie and send it to me, its cool because they decided to do it. But if I'm playing producer / director and cameraman its a violation of their feministic sensibilities.

[QUOTE=JohnHandCock;2961859]Apparently POF has changed quite a bit. I'm not fishing for miracles, but mid 30's to mid 40's and most of them have age range. Catfishing and lying have never been my strong suit so I don't play in that pool. Most of the younger women have in their profile that if your trying to buy them to move on LOL. So guess they have had plenty of guys running the sd game on them.

Match.com have no experience with at all. Now sd4 me and sa quite abit. No doing the age game on these it really doesn't matter if all the sb is after the cash. The real girls have a problem with the fake pics and old pics just the same as we do. Even on these sites do I rarely contact anyone under 30. I'm not in the need of the 18-22 drama and flakes that go with the young girls. The youngest has been 23, contacted by her. She was a sweetheart with head screwed on right. Going to school and part time job, living at home. But at ripe old age of 23 had been in the game for a couple of years. Now she was more or less utr like most of these girls now. She will never be on CL or any escort page but has found that she can come back to the arrangement sites when in financial need.[/QUOTE]Not sure how POF is now, but at the time if you didn't put in a lesser age in the profile, you would never even be able to see in your searches, much less contact anyone age inappropriate. I seem to recall that unlike Match (which uses the girls desired age range to determine if you're able to see them), I think POF by default was set up to keep older guys out of their hair, unless they specifically jumped through some hoops to allow it. My memory isn't good on this, it's been more than 5 years since I messed with POF. I think I ended up with a couple of banned accounts before I actually got it right, the only thing that worked for me was "tweaking" my age range to get as close as I needed to in order to interact with them. And no, you do not want to offer them money... I don't even do that on the SD sites. As I've talked about I run my game a little different than many, and if people are making offers and negotiating before meeting, that probably won't work on POF or match. You have to be a little tactful and speak in implied terms rather than directly. No girl ever joins POF or match looking for an immediate phone bill payment or whatever, they are looking for something longer term that starts a little slower but continues on. Financial help from an older man has been a staple of dating since the beginning of time, and they know this and that's why there is "income range" as an option on these profiles. But you can't be direct and can't talk to them like escorts.

Experiencing Match for the first time would be weird coming from the SD sites into civvy dating, anyone's initial reaction to the pics is going to be that they will feel underwhelmed, at page after page of photos of girl-next-door types. My perspective is different because I was finding civy dates and SB wannabes on match before I ever used SD sites. And on match, there are a lot of plain-jane types there (but then again there are girls on the SD sites these days that are overweight, frumpy, and laughable that they believe they are SB material). But there are also a lot of girls that, upon closer examination are simply downplaying themselves because they are looking for "mister right". These girls on the SD sites are amplifying their sexuality in their photos and putting their sexiest foot forward. They are marketing themselves via photos. This doesn't really hit home until you see one of your girls from a Match on a SD site, or vice versa. They present themselves completely differently. Same girl. Part of that might be because match probably censors pics if they are too revealing (underwear and so forth) so the girls just fall into line with the rules. But the other part is just like when you see a girls SB marketing photos and then you go to her FB site and see what she looks like the rest of the time. I can't be sure why, but they usually post "the rest of the time" photos to Match rather than put their sexiest foot forward.

But when I'm 65, I doubt I will even bother with the 18-22 crowd, because I know that anyone I can snag with an age difference like that is going to be only in it for the money, either desperate or pro. Right now I'm fortunate that a lifetime of exercise and eating right has returned its investment to me. As they say, 50 is the new 30. I'll ride that wave as long as I can, and when the tide changes I'll just have to either pay more or increase my age range a bit.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;2961407] I actually think the civvy dating sites (Match, POF, etc.) produce some of the best SB pussy available, especially if you want to find those who are just on the brink of realizing they are more attracted to older guys, or have a daddy-kink they want to explore or whatever, but haven't really thought much about the specifics of allowance, and haven't yet had their thoughts polluted by all the SB blogs and sugar related readings. [/QUOTE]

I totally agree. It is best to catch them when they are first considering this or considering it with my guidance.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;2961407] But, from the perspective of a part-time SD like me, hunting in those woods can be A LOT of work. And it comes with the risk of higher emotional attachment from them, which I don't need in my life right now. But yeah I think the gold standard of SBs are still on that site and have yet to discover SA and such. When I was able to devote more time to those sites, I didn't have to mess with the relatively high membership fees of SD. Also there were pretty much zero pro / UTR crap to deal with on dating sites. [/QUOTE]

Yes indeed. Far less crap to deal with on the dating sites but a lot more work and the minefield of personal attachment. I find it well worth the trouble to find and develop what I want rather than settling for what is out there advertising on sugar sites.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;2961407] I'm sure there's some gold to be found on CL too, but there's so much sketchiness there its hard to weed through it all. I never found 10's on CL. [/QUOTE].

CL is a challenge because of all the garbage on the site. It is like diamond mining: tons of sludge but every now and then you find a gem.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;2962260]As I've talked about I run my game a little different than many, and if people are making offers and negotiating before meeting, that probably won't work on POF or match. You have to be a little tactful and speak in implied terms rather than directly. No girl ever joins POF or match looking for an immediate phone bill payment or whatever, they are looking for something longer term that starts a little slower but continues on. Financial help from an older man has been a staple of dating since the beginning of time, and they know this and that's why there is "income range" as an option on these profiles. But you can't be direct and can't talk to them like escorts.[/QUOTE]YES. You need to master the art of indirect conversation, first in writing by responding to their profile and then in person. Financial aid from an older man IS a truism. They know that in theory. But you need to use your weapons: confidence, maturity, wisdom and power of persuasion, to turn a young girl's romantic idea of a relationship with an older man into a reality.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;2962040]What's weird is I've had girls sext me full nudes, usually not with face but they will send them back to back with photos that do show face (can easily be matched to same girl via tattoos or similar), and often they will send prior to ever meeting me (so they send these out to all the guys I'm sure).

But, those same girls put up a wall when I talked about doing an amateur porn shoot. I get the impression it's the lack of control of situation that scares them. If they decide to take a selfie and send it to me, its cool because they decided to do it. But if I'm playing producer / director and cameraman its a violation of their feministic sensibilities.[/QUOTE]I find that you need to bring up the photo and / or video thing after a few dates and there is some comfort and trust developed. I usually approach it by having some playful pillow talk about what our turn-ons are. I mention that one of mine is pretending I am doing a Playboy shoot or something like that and notice her reaction and go from there. If we do a naughty photo shoot, I move from there to talking about what kind of porn turns her on and, wow, wouldn't it be hot to do our own private porn shoot? When she wants to do it to please you it is like any other sensual and sexual turn-on and no big deal.

Apparently I'm missing something. Civy dating for me = GFE, more fuck time, plus a level of commitment without the cost of a sb.

Sb for me = set number of meetings, set # of fuck times, possible GFE that most everyone here is looking for and complains about if not receiving at a compensated price.

So why would one who is having luck at civy dating try and convert her to a sb? I know that most don't want attachment hence the sb route but complain if she is showing attachment or lack of attachment.

[QUOTE=JohnHandCock;2962875]Apparently I'm missing something. Civy dating for me = GFE, more fuck time, plus a level of commitment without the cost of a sb. Sb for me = set number of meetings, set # of fuck times, possible GFE that most everyone here is looking for and complains about if not receiving at a compensated price. So why would one who is having luck at civy dating try and convert her to a sb? I know that most don't want attachment hence the sb route but complain if she is showing attachment or lack of attachment.[/QUOTE]First, the definitions of the terms as I use them.

Civy dating = they are dating for pursuit of a partner first, and may or may not have considered financial aspect at all. Just traditional dating, maybe with strings maybe not. She might offer to pay for her own dinner the first date. Most likely if you fuck her and don't call her the next day she will be pissed and / or feel used, etc. Then again she may complain about her financial situation on the first date. One main differentiator is the circumstances under which you meet, there are civy sites and there are SB sites and usually that dictates part of it, at least how things start out initially (one could turn into the other over time). You see a lot more civy prospects with decent jobs, some are real breadwinners in their own right. But you can also meet civy girls that just as desperate as a nando SB, but still won't take money (directly). SB candidates tend to be emphasis on emotional connection first, financial help second.

SB dating = they join an SD / SB website specifically hoping to snag someone who can take care of them or help them in some way (mostly financial), or they have a daddy kink and just feel like they are tired of guys their age and figure if they are going to sleep around they might as well aim upward in status, but there is often some indication of a "damsel in distress" element. SBs are usually financial minded first, emotional connection second.

But to answer your question I'm not sure why someone who is getting everything they want in the civy world would intentionally convert a civy find to an SB. When I wasn't in a LTR, I was pretty much always in civy mode. If I split from my SO today, I would probably go back to primarily civy dating just to pursue finding someone I could stand to be around when we are not fucking. For sex, the 18+ crowd is great, but for long term dating I find anyone under 26 or so to be annoying for any length of time, just too much of a maturity gap. But, I might supplement my lifestyle by dabbling on SD sites, I did a little of that in the past. Why pay for it if you can get it for free? Well I don't know, I do that now. I can roll over on my gf any time I want it, she's good to go. But there is something erotic about hooking up with strangers and swapping cash for sex. I don't know I guess it's a turn on. I think that's true for some of these girls. My most recent FC visit was a girl that showed up driving $60 k car. She didn't need 200 bucks from me. I didn't ask but I got the impression "bored housewife to a rich guy". I guess she just liked the raunchy escapism attached with hooking up with a stranger and fulfilling a fantasy of being someone's paid fuck. Who knows.