"Sugarbabies" / "Arrangements" Amateurs or Not?

[QUOTE=Lebruno;2950876]Great Post, Jeez. I really like the idea of not discussing money upfront and let natural chemistry do its thing. Couple questions though. Say you invested time and effort in chatting w a POT, drove around to the M&G, paid for lunch / dinner and then after all these investments, POT turns out to be a GPS and throws out her $$$ expectation at you. Whats a good way to counter such situation and hopefully get some value out of it?

Also, per your experience (irrespective of your own affordability) dealing with SBs what do you think is the market average (allowance) for most SBs. Not UTRs or despos. Thanks.[/QUOTE]Believe it or not I have never had a POT throw out a number during the M&G date. I have had several occasions where, despite my firm strategy of not discussing money with girls I actually plan to meet, the POT insisted on taking the conversation down that road in the messages prior to meeting, and because of that I had to cancel plans of meeting them (and in a few cases it's gotten ugly enough to where I had to basically tell them to fuck off in slightly more polite terms).

I have only had one case where a POT met for the M&G, then cut the date short asking if we could meet the next day (not happening because I already had another date lined up). After we parted ways she started texting me, where she insisted on talking about money. She didn't give me a specific amount for what her expectation was but started saying she had gotten something like $1 k-1500 for a weekend before, and by that time I was already getting frustrated, called the night a loss (still to date the only M&G I've had that didn't go straight to the FC).

My standard target gift amount for the girl on a typical date is $200, but on most of my dates I end up spending quite a bit more overall because of dinner, drinks, etc. Thing is sometimes a date is an all-nighter with 2-3 rounds of fucking, other times it's send them on their way after one. Actual market average? I don't know that there could really be an average, because levels of game are all over the map, overall hotness of girls are all over the map, and things vary with geographic region and cost of living. Id guess overall national somewhere between 200-400 per date depending on area? No idea though.

The exception to not talking about money is with strippers, this is because there's pretty much no way of getting them out of the club otherwise, and I usually find that I have to spend a little more than the target gift (but not as much as the "full date" experience) unless they want to meet me on their night off. This is because of lost income from their shift (if I take them home with me that night they often have a fine to pay, a situation that an SB doesn't usually have. Even if she takes a night off work she's typically not giving up that much money to see me). Also with strippers I've seen them naked so I know what I'm getting. How could I possibly agree to an amount with a girl I haven't even seen naked yet (just my perspective)? Seems like buying sight unseen and I'm not okay with that.

Even though that's how it realistically turns out with me (pay per date), I never talk about things in that context. I just give it to them after all is said and done. So far so good.

So I think to answer your question, if they started doing like the one GPS girl I mentioned above, and doing so at a table at a restaurant over dinner I think I would tell them it's neither the time or place to discuss such a private matter and that I don't appreciate the subject matter. Luckily I haven't had to do this at a M&G. I do sometimes exert a direct display of dominance like this in other situations, and sometimes it pays big dividends. In fact I think putting my foot down and showing who is in charge of the situation has resulted in more panties hitting the floor than any other aspect of my personality, most females respond very positively to alpha males. Ultimately I let them know that if they don't want to be with me then they can go fly, and that I don't want to be a part of any situation that attempts to force me to think of myself as an ATM machine. Clearly, when I'm 80 years old a lot of these tactics won't work anymore (because I can't expect a 20 year old to legimately "want" someone that old sexually), and maybe at that time I'll either have to fuck older girls, pay higher amounts, or leave the game altogether to save my ego. But in the meantime my confidence is justified, so I'll play that card as long as I can I guess.

Back to money amounts, and discussing them. There are times when I absolutely do discuss money (it's just that I do it with girls I'll never meet, as a game-sharpening exercise). More on that technique at the following link: [URL]http://www.usasexguide.info/forum/showthread.php?9746-quot-Sugarbabies-quot-quot-Arrangements-quot-Amateurs-or-Not&p=2919909&viewfull=1#post2919909[/URL]

Specifically, look at tip #2. Sometimes I've been able to talk them down to $ per date from original expectation of five times that, all without ever having met them. It's something that usually takes days of back and worth to really wear down their expectation, but it can actually be a fun training exercise. Doesn't work with all of them but it's nice to know that with enough work some very cost effective opportunities can emerge.

[QUOTE=Dsprdo;2950966]Sometimes I follow up on old messages that got no response with a "maybe I got lost in the torrent of messages you get, would still love to meet you" note. Recently sent that to a a 20 year old blonde, whose occupation was listed as student with a desired arrangement of substantial.
Her response: "yeah, sorry I make more than you do. You seem like a nice guy though". I sent back "what do you do? Maybe you can be my sugar mama. " I guess the high end hooker business is booming.[/QUOTE]Just my two cents (and I hope it's well received). In the bowl and in civy dating, sometimes I get a note from a girl I spoke to before but forgot about, or sometimes someone I even went out with in the past hits me up. How they approach me in their attempt to reconnect often determines whether I want to write back or not.

For example if someone says "Hi, not sure if you remember me or not but I just wondered if you'd met anyone nice yet?" or similar, it makes me much more inclined to respond positively than if they say "I'm sure you're a busy guy but just wanted to say hello and see if you're still interested in talking more".

The reason I don't care for the second approach is that it comes in too high and presumptuous for my personal taste, she's making assumptions about how busy I am without really knowing me and being careless with words. Better to come in low, polite and humble. I probably wouldn't spend a lot of time thinking about how it rubbed me, I would just make a decision on whether and how to respond.The difference between those two would mostly take place in my subconscious thought processes. Of course if she's hot I'd still want to fuck her even if I don't like her approach, but I'm a guy and girls are different in that regard. So while I think from a guy's perspective, you were kind of complementing her with the torrent of messages comment (it means she's hot so she has lots of opportunity so she should take it as a compliment), there are a lot of other ways she might interpret it. And, say the wrong thing on a PMS day and it's hells bells. There is no accounting for wacky female hormones, only tactful movements.

[QUOTE=StormyTuesday;2949893]After a few years in the hobby and the past year exclusively playing in the bowl I have generally always been in the FC at least twice a week. Although there have been a few SBs I felt I could be exclusive with, including my current 19 yr old submissive nymphomaniac, I always seem to be on the prowl to have at least 2 different SBs per week. But on the flip side when I have a good SB that I spend extended hours with (dinners, overnight, etc) I start to get a bit pissy when I see them on the SA site. A good example is my current SB who I have seen weekly for the past 5 weeks. I actually "recruited" her from SA to be the third in a FMF with my previous # 1 SB. It was her first FMF but I knew she was hot so I dropped the previous SB. The first few weeks my current SB stayed off the site but this past week has been on it off and on. When I elected to bring the topic up she said it was fun for her to see what the different guys profiles were and to read their messages, followed by "you're the only one I am sleeping with. " I don't know what the real issue is for me personally, if it is not wanting to share her with other SDs or if I am taking it as a personal affront. We have already done a lot of crazy stuff in the FC and I provide a shade more than I normally do (5) but we are together for 6 to 8 hours at a time including meals out. I have talked to her about twice a week visits but her work schedule may challenge the idea. Meanwhile the hypocritical side of me is still reaching out to POTs lining up tentative M & Gs over the next week. Since I can't justify the expense of a shrink I am relying on input from the brothers. Are most of us hypocrites who prefer to create a double standard?[/QUOTE]There ARE some" honorable" SBs out there. The girls do this for 1) the kick of it, 2) money, 3) and sex. Re:1) they are risk takers and are less likely to be monogamous. Forget this type if you want monogamy. Their profiles say it - "looking for excitement --etc" Re: #2 I focus on this type. They fall in two categories a) greedy users who will fuck 12 Daddies if they can line them up, and b) my type-the needy girls who have debt or single Moms who can't work due to lack of childcare options. Many are not promiscuous by nature but are exploring this avenue out of necessity. They can be Monogamous if you take care of enough of their needs. Avoid the Nando 1 types though. If they are desperate enough they will see as many guys as they can. And #3) girls who like sex as much as men do will ***** around with as many guys as they can line up. They might have standards and unlike escorts will be picky about who they see, but they will find them.

[QUOTE=FredMoore;2951974]There ARE some" honorable" SBs out there. The girls do this for 1) the kick of it, 2) money, 3) and sex. Re:1) they are risk takers and are less likely to be monogamous. Forget this type if you want monogamy. Their profiles say it - "looking for excitement --etc" Re: #2 I focus on this type. They fall in two categories a) greedy users who will fuck 12 Daddies if they can line them up, and b) my type-the needy girls who have debt or single Moms who can't work due to lack of childcare options. Many are not promiscuous by nature but are exploring this avenue out of necessity. They can be Monogamous if you take care of enough of their needs. Avoid the Nando 1 types though. If they are desperate enough they will see as many guys as they can. And #3) girls who like sex as much as men do will ***** around with as many guys as they can line up. They might have standards and unlike escorts will be picky about who they see, but they will find them.[/QUOTE]I've run into a few #4's as well. They're busy professionals, and they don't want to deal with the dating scene. They may, or may not, have the means to enjoy nice dinners, and trips. They want someone that won't bring drama can wine and dine them, and then shag the hell out of them.

Agreed. In fact, I'm talking to one of those right now. She's a top level exec. Well to do. Money is not a problem. But wants to let down once a while go fine dining and have some good sex without any strings. But I guess these types could still fall within #1.

[QUOTE=BikeRider;2952031]I've run into a few #4's as well. They're busy professionals, and they don't want to deal with the dating scene. They may, or may not, have the means to enjoy nice dinners, and trips. They want someone that won't bring drama can wine and dine them, and then shag the hell out of them.[/QUOTE]

Again, great tips. Using SA membership to practice negotiation skills with GPS is a great strategy. My take away from this post is below paragraph:

Sometimes I've been able to talk them down to $ per date from original expectation of five times that, all without ever having met them. It's something that usually takes days of back and worth to really wear down their expectation, but it can actually be a fun training exercise. Doesn't work with all of them but it's nice to know that with enough work some very cost effective opportunities can emerge.

I'm dealing with some sticker shockers. But I'm all charged up now to go wear down their expectation. LOL.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;2951008]
Back to money amounts, and discussing them. There are times when I absolutely do discuss money (it's just that I do it with girls I'll never meet, as a game-sharpening exercise). More on that technique at the following link: [URL]http://www.usasexguide.info/forum/showthread.php?9746-quot-Sugarbabies-quot-quot-Arrangements-quot-Amateurs-or-Not&p=2919909&viewfull=1#post2919909[/URL]

Specifically, look at tip #2. Sometimes I've been able to talk them down to $ per date from original expectation of five times that, all without ever having met them. It's something that usually takes days of back and worth to really wear down their expectation, but it can actually be a fun training exercise. Doesn't work with all of them but it's nice to know that with enough work some very cost effective opportunities can emerge.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Lebruno;2952303]Again, great tips. Using SA membership to practice negotiation skills with GPS is a great strategy. My take away from this post is below paragraph:


"Sometimes I've been able to talk them down to $ per date from original expectation of five times that, all without ever having met them. It's something that usually takes days of back and worth to really wear down their expectation, but it can actually be a fun training exercise. Doesn't work with all of them but it's nice to know that with enough work some very cost effective opportunities can emerge."

I'm dealing with some sticker shockers. But I'm all charged up now to go wear down their expectation. LOL.[/QUOTE]The best method is to target girls in regions you'll never visit, so that if things go sideways while "practicing", there's no loss from your actual supply line of POTs. Like anything else, sometimes things don't go as planned. That way if they do stop responding, nothing lost. Sometimes it goes a little too well and you end up wishing you could drop everything and go visit her right away. LOL.

One thing that sometimes works is to remind her that the higher her monetary expectation is, the harder it's going to be for her to find an SD that's willing to provide that on an ongoing basis. This gets her thinking along the lines of lowering her "cost of entry" to a point where her actual overall income is higher. Charging a lot per visit is something high dollar escorts do, she doesn't want to put herself in the hooker category does she? (well sometimes they do but I work as hard as I can to weed that type out). A lot of the techniques I reach for only work on "true" SBs. Higher volume girls, UTR and escort tend to not respond to good game as much because at the end of the day they are operating as a commerce machine.

Ok lets see what everyone's definition of a true sb is. Everyone has an opion on this but I'm seeing reports done on apparently everyone who is in the sex business, from utr to pros. Girls giving BJ for cash to live in motel p4 p girls.

My definition is she has one daddy, not 3,5 or 10. Very simple one dady, not rotating mongers the way we rotate them. They remove their profile and don't leave it active, if its up their in business. More than one daddy at a time IMHO is utr in making.

Lets see what everyone else think.

I have only had one other SB who was better than this one. That one was 18 and oozed sensuality. I lost her to college. Now hunky jocks are pumping her non-stop because she could never get enough.

Fuck Bunny is my current number one and has been for two years now. If I could invent a perfect sex robot to my specifications I couldn't do any better. She is cute and has a smokin' hot little body. But she is also perky, funny, flexible and insatiable. Fucking and sucking is physical to be sure however when it is also mental it can be outstanding. I genuinely like her as well as lust for her. I have no illusions of this being romantic but in so many ways it is better than that. We understand one another perfectly without having to verbalize it. She's having fun and so am I. The allowance and presents grease the skids but they are not essential ingredients to the equation and never have been. Almost every time she surprises me in some way. Last time I grabbed her throat in the heat of passion and she whispered that she liked that; a hand on her throat made her hot. Previously I have discovered she likes many things: hair pulled hard, especially when riding her doggy; spanking; nipples pinched and bitten; sucking my fingers and toes; licking my ass while she plays with my cock; trying to squeeze my cock out but being unable to because I am plowing her hard; dirty talk, the filthier the better; getting tied up; blindfolds; role playing (that could be a whole novel. LOL); and so much more. She can be innocent, sultry, teasing, lively and unpredictable. Once she was giving me DT and she popped off my cock and said in the cutest twang, "I wonder how long I can do down and keep my lips on your balls?" The answer was 20 minutes and I came before she could continue because she was doing things with her tongue that drove me crazy. This is much better than any fantasy I could dream up and certainly better than any "relationship" I have ever had. There are no commitments or expectations, just two people getting together occasionally for a very hot, fun time and intensely enjoying one another both in mind and body.

Life can be VERY good my brothers.

I will trade you my online relationship POTs and my $800, $1000, $1500 per met POTs? Just kidding, I am super jealous.

[QUOTE=PartyTimeGuy;2953176]I have only had one other SB who was better than this one. That one was 18 and oozed sensuality. I lost her to college. Now hunky jocks are pumping her non-stop because she could never get enough.

Fuck Bunny is my current number one and has been for two years now. If I could invent a perfect sex robot to my specifications I couldn't do any better. She is cute and has a smokin' hot little body. But she is also perky, funny, flexible and insatiable. Fucking and sucking is physical to be sure however when it is also mental it can be outstanding. I genuinely like her as well as lust for her. I have no illusions of this being romantic but in so many ways it is better than that. We understand one another perfectly without having to verbalize it. She's having fun and so am I. The allowance and presents grease the skids but they are not essential ingredients to the equation and never have been. Almost every time she surprises me in some way. Last time I grabbed her throat in the heat of passion and she whispered that she liked that; a hand on her throat made her hot. Previously I have discovered she likes many things: hair pulled hard, especially when riding her doggy; spanking; nipples pinched and bitten; sucking my fingers and toes; licking my ass while she plays with my cock; trying to squeeze my cock out but being unable to because I am plowing her hard; dirty talk, the filthier the better; getting tied up; blindfolds; role playing (that could be a whole novel. LOL); and so much more. She can be innocent, sultry, teasing, lively and unpredictable. Once she was giving me DT and she popped off my cock and said in the cutest twang, "I wonder how long I can do down and keep my lips on your balls?" The answer was 20 minutes and I came before she could continue because she was doing things with her tongue that drove me crazy. This is much better than any fantasy I could dream up and certainly better than any "relationship" I have ever had. There are no commitments or expectations, just two people getting together occasionally for a very hot, fun time and intensely enjoying one another both in mind and body.

Life can be VERY good my brothers.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=JohnHandCock;2952748]Ok lets see what everyone's definition of a true sb is. Everyone has an opion on this but I'm seeing reports done on apparently everyone who is in the sex business, from utr to pros. Girls giving BJ for cash to live in motel p4 p girls.

My definition is she has one daddy, not 3,5 or 10. Very simple one dady, not rotating mongers the way we rotate them. They remove their profile and don't leave it active, if its up their in business. More than one daddy at a time IMHO is utr in making.

Lets see what everyone else think.[/QUOTE]I agree, although I'd relax the one daddy aspect (what's good for the goose.). If her sole source (or majority) of her income is from daddies, then she's a professional. If she's just augmenting her income, then I think she can still be considered a baby. It is a fine line though.

[QUOTE=JohnHandCock;2952748]Ok lets see what everyone's definition of a true sb is. Everyone has an opion on this but I'm seeing reports done on apparently everyone who is in the sex business, from utr to pros. Girls giving BJ for cash to live in motel p4 p girls.[/QUOTE]This is one reason I think the Richmond thread is the top shelf discussion of SBs here at USASG, and why I rarely read or post to any others. When I look at what's going on with some of the other city threads, in some areas they are doing little but meeting girls that are one notch above streetwalkers that are pretending to play an SB on the Internet.

[QUOTE=JohnHandCock;2952748]
My definition is she has one daddy, not 3,5 or 10. Very simple one dady, not rotating mongers the way we rotate them. They remove their profile and don't leave it active, if its up their in business. More than one daddy at a time IMHO is utr in making.
Lets see what everyone else think.[/QUOTE]I think of it like they all fall somewhere on a scale from 0 to 10, zero being an all out hoe and 10 being a pure SB. So maybe UTR escorts end up being like a 2 or 3? Not an exact science or something I've thought through completely, just illustrating a point.

So she is placed on the scale based on how many boxes she ticks and an associated point system:

Add 3 points if she fucks only guys she has a genuine physical attraction to, and won't just spread her legs for money.

Add 3 if after some period of time she will date him straight up without an agreed upon allowance.

Add 3 if she dates only one than one guy at a time, all inclusive (SD or bf, etc).

Add 1 if she proudly introduces her SD to her friends and family, calls him her "boyfriend", talks about their future together, etc.

Subtract 6 points if searching her phone number or photos ever brings up a BP ad.

Subtract 4 if she cares only about the amount paid per visit (yes I know that these two alone would put her at zero but lets not get into negative numbers and say the scale has a floor when she hits zero...LOL).

Subtract 2 for every SD she attempts to date simultaneously.

Subtract 2 if she has no other source of income, and is not in school trying to better herself, etc.


You get the idea, my point is not to dwell as much on the details of each point or criteria, and maybe the true scale has a wider range of points and more possibilities, its just that the definition of true SB I don't think is black and white. There are just some more worthy of the title of SB than others depending on how far to the right they fall on that scale.

[QUOTE=JohnHandCock;2952748]Ok lets see what everyone's definition of a true sb is. Everyone has an opion on this but I'm seeing reports done on apparently everyone who is in the sex business, from utr to pros. Girls giving BJ for cash to live in motel p4 p girls.

My definition is she has one daddy, not 3,5 or 10. Very simple one dady, not rotating mongers the way we rotate them. They remove their profile and don't leave it active, if its up their in business. More than one daddy at a time IMHO is utr in making.

Lets see what everyone else think.[/QUOTE]I have to wonder, if you're expecting the girl to be monogamous, how many visits do you typically have in a month and what's your usual monthly spend?

Perhaps it might be a good idea to start a thread to report on GPS girls. One, it would be good for us to go after the GPS and get some practice negotiating. Two, who knows, we might be successful and end up breaking some of their GPS to normalcy. LOL.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;2952549]The best method is to target girls in regions you'll never visit, so that if things go sideways while "practicing", there's no loss from your actual supply line of POTs. Like anything else, sometimes things don't go as planned. That way if they do stop responding, nothing lost. Sometimes it goes a little too well and you end up wishing you could drop everything and go visit her right away. LOL.

One thing that sometimes works is to remind her that the higher her monetary expectation is, the harder it's going to be for her to find an SD that's willing to provide that on an ongoing basis. This gets her thinking along the lines of lowering her "cost of entry" to a point where her actual overall income is higher. Charging a lot per visit is something high dollar escorts do, she doesn't want to put herself in the hooker category does she? (well sometimes they do but I work as hard as I can to weed that type out). A lot of the techniques I reach for only work on "true" SBs. Higher volume girls, UTR and escort tend to not respond to good game as much because at the end of the day they are operating as a commerce machine.[/QUOTE]

She is a fuck bunny indeed. You are one lucky SOB. And, you better keep her in a tight leash so she'll b around for a long time!

[QUOTE=PartyTimeGuy;2953176]I have only had one other SB who was better than this one. That one was 18 and oozed sensuality. I lost her to college. Now hunky jocks are pumping her non-stop because she could never get enough.

Fuck Bunny is my current number one and has been for two years now. If I could invent a perfect sex robot to my specifications I couldn't do any better. She is cute and has a smokin' hot little body. But she is also perky, funny, flexible and insatiable. Fucking and sucking is physical to be sure however when it is also mental it can be outstanding. I genuinely like her as well as lust for her. I have no illusions of this being romantic but in so many ways it is better than that. We understand one another perfectly without having to verbalize it. She's having fun and so am I. The allowance and presents grease the skids but they are not essential ingredients to the equation and never have been. Almost every time she surprises me in some way. Last time I grabbed her throat in the heat of passion and she whispered that she liked that; a hand on her throat made her hot. Previously I have discovered she likes many things: hair pulled hard, especially when riding her doggy; spanking; nipples pinched and bitten; sucking my fingers and toes; licking my ass while she plays with my cock; trying to squeeze my cock out but being unable to because I am plowing her hard; dirty talk, the filthier the better; getting tied up; blindfolds; role playing (that could be a whole novel. LOL); and so much more. She can be innocent, sultry, teasing, lively and unpredictable. Once she was giving me DT and she popped off my cock and said in the cutest twang, "I wonder how long I can do down and keep my lips on your balls?" The answer was 20 minutes and I came before she could continue because she was doing things with her tongue that drove me crazy. This is much better than any fantasy I could dream up and certainly better than any "relationship" I have ever had. There are no commitments or expectations, just two people getting together occasionally for a very hot, fun time and intensely enjoying one another both in mind and body.

Life can be VERY good my brothers.[/QUOTE]