"Sugarbabies" / "Arrangements" Amateurs or Not?

After a few years in the hobby and the past year exclusively playing in the bowl I have generally always been in the FC at least twice a week. Although there have been a few SBs I felt I could be exclusive with, including my current 19 yr old submissive nymphomaniac, I always seem to be on the prowl to have at least 2 different SBs per week. But on the flip side when I have a good SB that I spend extended hours with (dinners, overnight, etc) I start to get a bit pissy when I see them on the SA site. A good example is my current SB who I have seen weekly for the past 5 weeks. I actually "recruited" her from SA to be the third in a FMF with my previous # 1 SB. It was her first FMF but I knew she was hot so I dropped the previous SB. The first few weeks my current SB stayed off the site but this past week has been on it off and on. When I elected to bring the topic up she said it was fun for her to see what the different guys profiles were and to read their messages, followed by "you're the only one I am sleeping with. " I don't know what the real issue is for me personally, if it is not wanting to share her with other SDs or if I am taking it as a personal affront. We have already done a lot of crazy stuff in the FC and I provide a shade more than I normally do (5) but we are together for 6 to 8 hours at a time including meals out. I have talked to her about twice a week visits but her work schedule may challenge the idea. Meanwhile the hypocritical side of me is still reaching out to POTs lining up tentative M & Gs over the next week. Since I can't justify the expense of a shrink I am relying on input from the brothers. Are most of us hypocrites who prefer to create a double standard?

Max,

I am just curious, what was "the other guy's higher offer" and what was your offer?

[QUOTE=Madaboutmax;2947205]It took 2+ months, but sticking to my guns and patience has paid off. The SB referenced below is back. Turns out the "better deal" included some strings that she was uncomfortable with. We will see where this goes.

Wish me luck! M.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=StormyTuesday;2949893]Since I can't justify the expense of a shrink I am relying on input from the brothers. Are most of us hypocrites who prefer to create a double standard?[/QUOTE]The age demographic of these girls have been trained with YOLO as a fundamental philosophy, such that random hookups and cheating are a part of life, and that no relationship is forever. Their thought process continuity has been repeatedly disrupted by constant pop-up ads starting from the moment they are able to read, ads that either directly sell the promiscuous lifestyle, or that in some way use sexuality to sell their non-sex related product. This combined with other factors has created sort of a sexual ADD effect in the minds of our youth, the younger they are, the less likely they are to ever outgrow it. Other factors being things like the ubiquity of porn, mobile apps that encourage random sexual encounters, etc. It has turned them all into hunters, trolling for the next sexual fix. They cannot resist the urge to "see what's out there". They now crave the sexual variety that used to be solely the domain of the successful married guy that society used to entitle to that variety by virtue of his financial success, except the boredom sets in before they ever get started on their marriage or career due to the fast-tracking, instant-on, on-demand nature of the Internet.

So basically my advice has always been that with regard to girls we meet on any SD site, it is in our best interest to just enjoy the sex, do not form any level of attachment or sense of exclusivity, because the very fact they have labeled themselves an SB by creating a profile on these sites tells you everything you need to know about their sense of entitlement. It doesn't mean they're all bad people, I've met some very sweet SBs. I've met some that make me hum that song "If I could fly, I'd pick you up and take you into the night. " LOL. Over and over in my head. Some of them seem like relationship potential.

But I say don't do it. I think it's perfectly normal to feel bummed out if they have taken down their profile based on a discussion you've had with her (talks of exclusivity or whatever), then suddenly one day she puts it back up, but there is a solution for that feeling of being bummed which is to go and fuck one of the other SBs in your line up or keep yourself busy by searching for new ones. In the bowl, the supply curve is in your favor rather than hers, so in that game you will ultimately come out ahead.

I do wonder sometimes if one day someone will prove me wrong, and report back to this forum that they met the girl of their dreams on an SD site, have had a monogamous relationship and a couple of kids and after a decade or so are still in marital bliss. And I realize it's plausible that someone who actually finds that might never report back, so we may not know it if they exist. But every brother I've ever seen that flipped an SB into a GF of sorts always comes back with war stories about where things went wrong. Because of that fact, why ever let ourselves care enough about what one girl does to even let it get close to that stage? I've said it before, if anyone wants a GF, then sugardaddy sites aren't the place to look. If you do, consider her a temporary staffing situation of a girlfriend, and always have the next POT on the horizon. If looking for hot young girlfriend material, it would be better to find them on traditional dating sites and flip them to GF before they've discovered the bowl and full-on SB lifestyle. Identifying them early and being the first to stake your claim and indoctrinate them into age-inappropriate dating would be the key to success (but expect it to require much more work than the bowl).

Expecting honesty, integrity or loyalty from young and hot woman in itself is a stretch. Expecting it from one that has already announced her intentions and sense of entitlement by posting on a sugar dating site is even more of a stretch. So, just enjoy the game for what it's worth. There's a lot of great sex to be had out there.

I'm sure some of these SBs will make half decent wives for someone, some day, but that guy will be getting "honey-do" sex that diminishes in excitement during the first 6 months of marriage. He won't be getting hot, adventurous sex from her that equals what you're getting from her today, and it won't be easy for him to remedy that situation by re placing her quickly and painlessly like you can.

The more you can remember that last paragraph the easier it will be to not get caught up on what any one of your existing / past SBs are doing and just look forward to the next one.

[QUOTE=Madaboutmax;2949377]Like everything else in life, you get better with practice.

I ask questions that determine if they care about my appearance, want something ongoing, are willing to carry on a conversation, are too focused on what's in it for them, etc. I haven't found filtering out pros, utr's, GPS syndrome and desperate "Nando 1's" to be that hard.

The greater challenge is filtering our scammers and pretenders. Scammers will say all the right things and then come up with reasons for you to send them money upfront, but I always refuse even if I think they are genuine. Pretenders either enjoy just playing or haven't decided if they actually want to go thru with it.[/QUOTE]I probably should have used time consuming rather than hard. I've run into more than a few pretenders in the last few months, and I hate the loss of time when I learn their lies. GPS is easy to identify, but I usually try and chat with them for a few days before I ask what they're seeking. So again, it's a sunk cost of time.

Any advice on what sites you guys are using? I'm from a diff area but caught this thread, the idea is interesting but there's no talk of this kind of setup in my areas forums. Checked a few pages but didn't see any links.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;2950162]The age demographic of these girls have been trained with YOLO as a fundamental philosophy, such that random hookups and cheating are a part of life, and that no relationship is forever. Their thought process continuity has been repeatedly disrupted by constant pop-up ads starting from the moment they are able to read, ads that either directly sell the promiscuous lifestyle, or that in some way use sexuality to sell their non-sex related product. This combined with other factors has created sort of a sexual ADD effect in the minds of our youth, the younger they are, the less likely they are to ever outgrow it. Other factors being things like the ubiquity of porn, mobile apps that encourage random sexual encounters, etc. It has turned them all into hunters, trolling for the next sexual fix. They cannot resist the urge to "see what's out there". They now crave the sexual variety that used to be solely the domain of the successful married guy that society used to entitle to that variety by virtue of his financial success, except the boredom sets in before they ever get started on their marriage or career due to the fast-tracking, instant-on, on-demand nature of the Internet.

So basically my advice has always been that with regard to girls we meet on any SD site, it is in our best interest to just enjoy the sex, do not form any level of attachment or sense of exclusivity, because the very fact they have labeled themselves an SB by creating a profile on these sites tells you everything you need to know about their sense of entitlement. It doesn't mean they're all bad people, I've met some very sweet SBs. I've met some that make me hum that song "If I could fly, I'd pick you up and take you into the night. " LOL. Over and over in my head. Some of them seem like relationship potential.

But I say don't do it. I think it's perfectly normal to feel bummed out if they have taken down their profile based on a discussion you've had with her (talks of exclusivity or whatever), then suddenly one day she puts it back up, but there is a solution for that feeling of being bummed which is to go and fuck one of the other SBs in your line up or keep yourself busy by searching for new ones. In the bowl, the supply curve is in your favor rather than hers, so in that game you will ultimately come out ahead.

I do wonder sometimes if one day someone will prove me wrong, and report back to this forum that they met the girl of their dreams on an SD site, have had a monogamous relationship and a couple of kids and after a decade or so are still in marital bliss. And I realize it's plausible that someone who actually finds that might never report back, so we may not know it if they exist. But every brother I've ever seen that flipped an SB into a GF of sorts always comes back with war stories about where things went wrong. Because of that fact, why ever let ourselves care enough about what one girl does to even let it get close to that stage? I've said it before, if anyone wants a GF, then sugardaddy sites aren't the place to look. If you do, consider her a temporary staffing situation of a girlfriend, and always have the next POT on the horizon. If looking for hot young girlfriend material, it would be better to find them on traditional dating sites and flip them to GF before they've discovered the bowl and full-on SB lifestyle. Identifying them early and being the first to stake your claim and indoctrinate them into age-inappropriate dating would be the key to success (but expect it to require much more work than the bowl).

Expecting honesty, integrity or loyalty from young and hot woman in itself is a stretch. Expecting it from one that has already announced her intentions and sense of entitlement by posting on a sugar dating site is even more of a stretch. So, just enjoy the game for what it's worth. There's a lot of great sex to be had out there.

I'm sure some of these SBs will make half decent wives for someone, some day, but that guy will be getting "honey-do" sex that diminishes in excitement during the first 6 months of marriage. He won't be getting hot, adventurous sex from her that equals what you're getting from her today, and it won't be easy for him to remedy that situation by re placing her quickly and painlessly like you can.

The more you can remember that last paragraph the easier it will be to not get caught up on what any one of your existing / past SBs are doing and just look forward to the next one.[/QUOTE]Once again, Jeez, you have hit the nail on the head for me personally. Believe when I say how much I appreciate you putting the time and effort into your high quality response.

[QUOTE=StormyTuesday;2950706]Once again, Jeez, you have hit the nail on the head for me personally. Believe when I say how much I appreciate you putting the time and effort into your high quality response.[/QUOTE]Thanks for the comments and glad to know my posts are being read. Believe it or not there is a method to my madness on some of these more elaborate posts. The reason some of them are lengthy / detailed is because I'm creating my own index, so that when a topic comes up that I've already shared my thoughts about, I can just share a link to the post that captures my overall perspective in depth, then maybe a line or two if I have any new or emerging info. Not so much as a future plan to avoid typing or anything, just to minimize the amount of redundant stuff that goes into the already enormous thread. So if it all goes well, at some point I will only be posting links to longer posts, plus any comments directly relevant to immediate discussion.

I don't know what the other offer was, or ever asked. I didn't want to suggest I was open to negotiation. I was told it was an offer that she couldn't refuse. I don't know the specifics yet, but she told me that he ultimately had sexual expectations she was uncomfortable with. I should learn more soon.

I believe he suggested he was willing to have a platonic relationship. I made it clear I'm not interested in a platonic relationship. I told her most guys who say they are, are not telling the truth. It looks like I was correct. She said she appreciates my honesty.

[QUOTE=EnzoAmore;2950114]Max,

I am just curious, what was "the other guy's higher offer" and what was your offer?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Madaboutmax;2950738]I don't know the specifics yet, but she told me it the offer included sexual conditions she was uncomfortable with. I should learn more soon.[/QUOTE]First guess sounds like someone wanted a backstage pass to enter through the exit door. Or maybe some creepy BDSM "contract" or something.

I try to be honest and clear on what I am looking for, but not pushy and give them time to consider other offers. In several cases they have appreciated the honesty and ultimately accepted my offer. Often though, I never hear from them again and they disappear from the site.

I go with the numbers game and expect that not everyone will accept my conditions, but know some will.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;2950742]First guess sounds like someone wanted a backstage pass to enter through the exit door. Or maybe some creepy BDSM "contract" or something.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Madaboutmax;2950752]I try to be honest and clear on what I am looking for, but not pushy and give them time to consider other alternatives. In several cases they have appreciated the honesty and ultimately accepted my conditions. Often though, I never hear from then again and they disappear from the site.[/QUOTE]In case it wasn't clear, I just meant it sounded like the other guy might have been making strange sexual demands (wasn't referring to the conditions you might have had).

In terms of what actually happens in the FC, I never even allude to any sort of requirements on my own part, I try to let all that happen naturally via chemistry and so far, I've been able to always get what I want, although in certain cases it sometimes requires a bit of last-minute coaching. This is one reason I don't like to discuss money up front, I feel that it throws both of us into a sort of competitive, business negotiation mode that kind of removes the "dating magic" that allows everything else to happen naturally.

About the ones that seem to disappear, one thing you might try is to let a month or two go by, and send a brief mail or text just to touch base, see how things are going, etc. I've had more than a few that suddenly went dark on me, but then after some time and another attempt at contact, they reconnect with the same enthusiasm as before and a ready-to-go attitude. I guess the key to this working is that if they do disappear or fail to respond, its best to not respond again until some time has passed (usually weeks), it conveys to them you have no shortage of other options.

My theory here is that part of the reason they go dark is they get a temporarily inflated sense of their own available options from too many SDs contacting them (most of whom don't work out for one reason or another). Also, I know that I myself have simply gotten overwhelmed with email and text management, and simply forgotten to reply to a few girls, or forgot that they were waiting for a response from me. Then after a couple of months there's a good chance your follow up will hit them at a time when everything else has fallen through or left them disappointed in one way or another, then you have that working for you plus the fact that she now sees that you're not the impatient type. 9 times out of 10 I've been able to re-ignite the fire this way. If they don't respond back after the delayed response, I would then let it go.

[blue][Deleted by Admin][/blue]I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, but [blue][Deleted by Admin][/blue]

[b][u]EDITOR'S NOTE[/u]:[/b] [blue]This report was redacted or deleted to remove sections of the report that were [u]largely argumentative[/u]. Please read the Forum FAQ and the Forum's Posting Guidelines for more information. [i]Thank You![/i]

Actually yes, in fact you were. Because you tell a guy, "hey I don't want to fight with you" then punch him in the fucking nose doesn't mean you're not fighting.

I'll never understand these SD/SB guys, it doesn't make any sense to me personally. That's why I stay the fuck off of those threads with my personal account.

A2[/blue]

Great Post, Jeez. I really like the idea of not discussing money upfront and let natural chemistry do its thing. Couple questions though. Say you invested time and effort in chatting w a POT, drove around to the M&G, paid for lunch / dinner and then after all these investments, POT turns out to be a GPS and throws out her $$$ expectation at you. Whats a good way to counter such situation and hopefully get some value out of it?

Also, per your experience (irrespective of your own affordability) dealing with SBs what do you think is the market average (allowance) for most SBs. Not UTRs or despos. Thanks.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;2950777]In case it wasn't clear, I just meant it sounded like the other guy might have been making strange sexual demands (wasn't referring to the conditions you might have had).

In terms of what actually happens in the FC, I never even allude to any sort of requirements on my own part, I try to let all that happen naturally via chemistry and so far, I've been able to always get what I want, although in certain cases it sometimes requires a bit of last-minute coaching. This is one reason I don't like to discuss money up front, I feel that it throws both of us into a sort of competitive, business negotiation mode that kind of removes the "dating magic" that allows everything else to happen naturally.

About the ones that seem to disappear, one thing you might try is to let a month or two go by, and send a brief mail or text just to touch base, see how things are going, etc. I've had more than a few that suddenly went dark on me, but then after some time and another attempt at contact, they reconnect with the same enthusiasm as before and a ready-to-go attitude. I guess the key to this working is that if they do disappear or fail to respond, its best to not respond again until some time has passed (usually weeks), it conveys to them you have no shortage of other options.

My theory here is that part of the reason they go dark is they get a temporarily inflated sense of their own available options from too many SDs contacting them (most of whom don't work out for one reason or another). Also, I know that I myself have simply gotten overwhelmed with email and text management, and simply forgotten to reply to a few girls, or forgot that they were waiting for a response from me. Then after a couple of months there's a good chance your follow up will hit them at a time when everything else has fallen through or left them disappointed in one way or another, then you have that working for you plus the fact that she now sees that you're not the impatient type. 9 times out of 10 I've been able to re-ignite the fire this way. If they don't respond back after the delayed response, I would then let it go.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Lebruno;2950876]Great Post, Jeez. I really like the idea of not discussing money upfront and let natural chemistry do its thing. Couple questions though. Say you invested time and effort in chatting w a POT, drove around to the M&G, paid for lunch / dinner and then after all these investments, POT turns out to be a GPS and throws out her $$$ expectation at you. Whats a good way to counter such situation and hopefully get some value out of it?

Also, per your experience (irrespective of your own affordability) dealing with SBs what do you think is the market average (allowance) for most SBs. Not UTRs or despos. Thanks.[/QUOTE]My experience has been most want to know up front the arrangement. Thus the m / g. This is discussed in detail after spending time with her and both deciding that we want to proceed. The arrangement, how it will be paid, the number of visits, what happens if a visitation is missed (her fault or mine), the time to be spent, whether she wants the wining and dinning or just play. Everything is worked out at m / g then its never brought back up. This way the girl never has to worry about getting stiffed by the hit and run guys or the ones that figure $ takes care of everything. No disappointment from their end.

Attraction and chemistry is a must but to the girls just doing it for the money the details is more important. Remember they can put on a good act for a good arrangement so don't get caught up in how into you she acts. The arrangement goes so do they.

Sometimes I follow up on old messages that got no response with a "maybe I got lost in the torrent of messages you get, would still love to meet you" note. Recently sent that to a a 20 year old blonde, whose occupation was listed as student with a desired arrangement of substantial.

Her response: "yeah, sorry I make more than you do. You seem like a nice guy though".

I sent back "what do you do? Maybe you can be my sugar mama. " I guess the high end hooker business is booming.