Hooray for the Thoughtful Discussion
If our site monitor Admin were to give awards for thoughtful and well researched postings, these should go to Grimmy and BSouthGate.
I think the definition of "human trafficking" varies according to whoever is saying it. The California definition cited by BSouthGate emphasizes the involuntary part. Otoh I just read the UN protocol written up in the Wiki article on human trafficking. This one sticks closer to the US's Mann Act (1910): Any transportation or "harboring" for prostitution fits the definition. So when someone complains about human trafficking, one might inquire just what the speaker means. There is little trafficking under the California definition and our providers are almost all trafficked under the UN definition.
In my own mind, the part that is wrong is the involuntary nature. I hope I've never had sex with a sex worker who's in this involuntarily. Would I want any of my younger female relatives involved in this? No. But if they were, I'd want them to have a safe protected environment and be able to screen their clients, and I'd want them to have a realistic back-up plan for when the business fades for them or they otherwise want to get out. I wouldn't want society to condemn them for their prior choice. And I am so grateful for the women who are willing to help me enjoy sexual expression, thus the motive for my handle here.
And now, having blown off steam here, it's time to go out and blow my wad (1960's term), looking for a vagina to slide into and move back and forth inside.
Lift Her Up.
Great Post and Critique of my view on Trafficking
[QUOTE=Grimmy23;6936363]Again, not to stoke heated debate, but I would argue that trafficking is a bit more prominent than you're led to believe. Not all of the girls in all of the MPs are trafficked, and OC isn't a trafficking hotspot. Trafficking is a lot more prominent in the San Gabriel Valley than it is in OC. But also keep in mind what I pointed out in my last post. There are a lot of girls in OC who aren't trafficked per se. They're free to come and go if they wish. But the conditions they are under could easily be argued as quid pro quo trafficking.
As you say, the definition of trafficking according to California Penal Code is "violating or depriving the personal liberty of another with the intent to obtain forced labor or services, sell or procure the person for commercial sex, or exploit the person in an obscene manner. " So let's say you're a girl working for the prominent OC AMP that I referenced earlier but still won't name names because that's not the point of these posts. You're a Chinese woman in her 40's or 50's, you work for this AMP, you're given a place to live and the food you need. You have to pay room and board to the owner, but the costs are reasonable. In order to keep living there and having room and board covered for a reasonable and affordable cost, you have to work in their dark, dingy, and dirty (and yes, all of these AMPs are dirty. Not a single one of them meets any health code standard even if they appear clean on the surface) shop, 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. You have to jerk off 12 random guys every day, many of whom you've never met. You have to stick your finger up at least some of their asses. You have to suck some of their dicks. All while they try to pull your clothes off and touch your intimate parts. You might even have to have sex with a few of them. Again, you're free to go. An argument can be made that you're doing it voluntarily, so therefore you aren't trafficked. However, if you go, then what? You're in a country where you don't speak much of the language. If you quit you have nowhere to live. You have no marketable skills. Maybe if you did well in the business you saved up enough to get your own apartment for a while, but eventually you need another job, and minimum wage jobs aren't going to cut it for very long. So you're kind of stuck, and the spa owner knows you're stuck and fully exploits the fact that you're stuck. That's quid pro quo trafficking.
You can argue that even with that, it's "better living conditions that the girl had in China. " That may be true, but this isn't China. This is the USA where it isn't acceptable for workers to be treated that way.
Again, this doesn't apply to all AMPs, or even a majority of AMPs, especially in OC. But it is out there in fairly substantial numbers. It's also not limited to sex trafficking, and it certainly isn't limited to Asians. Trafficking is also prominent in the restaurant and hospitality industries. Hotel maids, dish washers, etc..[/QUOTE]Grimmy, thank you for the effort and time you put into this post and the hordes of information and knowledge you shared in your previous posts. This site is lucky to have you. I understand that you are in the legitimate massage business and have extensive knowledge about all aspects of it.
I am highly skeptical about the prevalence of trafficking in OC or even in the SG Valley.
First of all, I'm not at all convinced that renting a room to a 45-year-old non-documented Chinese employee is, in any way, exploitative or even close to what one should call trafficking. To think that providing cheap rent to one's employees approaches being unfair or abusive seems way off the mark. It also implies ethnocentrism. My home / office in China was a large townhouse across the street from the dormitory of the local Hilton Hotel. Both the Hilton and I housed employees and volunteers on our property. Neither the Hilton nor I charged rent. How on earth is this exploitative? This is the way it is done in other countries. It is better there than here. It is a different culture with different practices.
Second, I made my estimate that less than one percent of massage women are trafficked in OC based on the California police stats. Of course, I can be wrong. You are in the business and must have more knowledge than I about trafficked women who are unknown to the police. But if the number is even as high as ten percent, would there not be many reports on these review sites of mongers who had encountered trafficked massage girls?
I have personally experienced a couple of US streetwalkers who described a trafficking situation. So, I will grant you that trafficking is probably prevalent among street women, but I have never detected any evidence that anyone from an American MP had been trafficked. This is even though I am fluent in Mandarin and Spanish, have dated massage girls, and have met their families. What other reader has had different experiences?
So, if you know of places that are trafficking women (not renting cheap rooms), you should let us all know so we can avoid these places.
Thanks again for all your contributions. I very much enjoy reading your posts.
Thank you! I enjoy a good debate.
[QUOTE=BSouthgate;6936547]Grimmy, thank you for the effort and time you put into this post and the hordes of information and knowledge you shared in your previous posts. This site is lucky to have you. I understand that you are in the legitimate massage business and have extensive knowledge about all aspects of it.
I am highly skeptical about the prevalence of trafficking in OC or even in the SG Valley.
First of all, I'm not at all convinced that renting a room to a 45-year-old non-documented Chinese employee is, in any way, exploitative or even close to what one should call trafficking. To think that providing cheap rent to one's employees approaches being unfair or abusive seems way off the mark. It also implies ethnocentrism. My home / office in China was a large townhouse across the street from the dormitory of the local Hilton Hotel. Both the Hilton and I housed employees and volunteers on our property. Neither the Hilton nor I charged rent. How on earth is this exploitative? This is the way it is done in other countries. It is better there than here. It is a different culture with different practices.
Second, I made my estimate that less than one percent of massage women are trafficked in OC based on the California police stats. Of course, I can be wrong. You are in the business and must have more knowledge than I about trafficked women who are unknown to the police. But if the number is even as high as ten percent, would there not be many reports on these review sites of mongers who had encountered trafficked massage girls?
I have personally experienced a couple of US streetwalkers who described a trafficking situation. So, I will grant you that trafficking is probably prevalent among street women, but I have never detected any evidence that anyone from an American MP had been trafficked. This is even though I am fluent in Mandarin and Spanish, have dated massage girls, and have met their families. What other reader has had different experiences?
So, if you know of places that are trafficking women (not renting cheap rooms), you should let us all know so we can avoid these places.
Thanks again for all your contributions. I very much enjoy reading your posts.[/QUOTE]Thank you as well! This is a great discussion and I appreciate keeping everything civil, even though we may not agree on all points.
About the free or low cost room and board and being exploitative, it's about the girls being "stuck. " Again, it isn't jail. They can leave if they wish. There's no walls around them. But if they leave they aren't likely to have anywhere to go. They may not even be documented as you pointed out. There are AMP owners who exploit that. I won't mention which spas they are because I'm not here to call anybody out. There are even some spas where the girls are expected to have sex with the owner at his whim. I know a couple girls who have "escaped" that setting, only to go back later because once they escaped they found they had no other options to keep a roof over their heads. Some of them ultimately got their own places. Good for them. They're much more free than they were before, but still stuck giving HJs and BJs for a living because they have no other skills that pay enough to meet their living expenses.
Offering affordable houses to employees is one thing. Offering affordable housing to employees under condition of them continuing to work in your illegal shop, while said employees are undocumented and clearly have no other options, and subjecting them to deplorable working conditions is another thing entirely. Many of these girls are literally stuck.
Once again I won't name names of spas here because I'm not here to call anybody out, but there are clear warning signs that make me avoid certain spas. Places that rotate girls frequently, as in they have an entirely new staff every week or two. That's an indication that they may be getting shuffled around to stay a step ahead of law enforcement and immigration officials. I've seen many cases where girls are even taken from state to state, literally coast to coast. Any signs of the girls living in the shops is a huge red flag. They're literally being kept in there under squalid conditions, being served minimal food, pretty much not being allowed to leave the shop. And then they're shuttled from that shop to another in a couple weeks. Signs of meals being prepared in the spas also tends to point to the girls living there. Not always of course, but it's one of the thing that makes me raise my eyebrows a little and wonder what's going on behind the scenes. And just the overall mood of the girls. I can usually sense when something just seems a bit off. They're visibly not happy, just going through the motions to get through the day.
Police stats are only based on what they know. Violation of California law. There are a lot of things that fall well outside their jurisdiction and / or are extremely difficult to prove in a court of law. Quid pro quo trafficking a I described it for example. In order to bust the owners of one of those spas for quid pro quo trafficking you would have to gather a ton of very difficult to collect evidence, which would include getting the girls to admit that they were doing this beyond their will. Of course if they're undocumented or here on expired visas it would be tough to get them to talk. They don't want to risk deportation, and they don't know what the unknown is. What exactly happens to them if they cooperate. In their home country, cooperating with the police can often lead to dire consequences. So exactly how do you get them to come out and say that they want to leave the business but can't because the owner will kick them out of the house and they have nowhere to go?
Bottom line is it's a very, very complicated subject with no easy answers to anything. One thing is for certain, and that is that it's pretty easy to ascertain that not many of these girls do this voluntarily. Some of them do for the money. They're in love with the money and they know they can't make anywhere near that much doing anything else, so they continue to tolerate it. Think about it though, as another poster here pointed out earlier. Say your job is to finger a dozen random women a day, eat some of them out, suck their tits, maybe even have sex with some of them. Out of the dozen you see every day, most are older, unattractive, overweight, and have less than stellar hygiene. They're trying to grab at you, rip your clothes off, kiss you, stick their fingers up your ass, and who knows what else. That's your job and you have to keep doing it in order to continue living in the owners' hose and eating the food you're provided. How many of you would enjoy that? Probably not many. Some maybe enjoy sex enough that they would enjoy it. Most would just tolerate it because it's a living, and perhaps a very good living.
It's been a great debate but I probably won't make any additional comments about it because we will probably never be in full agreement. Thanks again for the thoughtful discussion!
Undocumented immigrants residence.
[QUOTE=Grimmy23;6937349]I'm going to have to speculate a bit, and before I do that I'll have to give some background because it's pretty complicated. Commercial real estate is much more complicated than residential real estate with a lot more moving parts, so forgive me if I get long winded here because I probably will.
With residential rentals, the only thing really on the table is how much the rent is. With commercial storefront rentals the rent is just one of many pieces. There's CAM fees, clauses about who pays dfor what if something breaks. There's signage rights. Do you get to be on the strip malls landmark sign, and if yea, what position on the sign do you get? There's the issue of what sign you put over your door. A business can't just put up whatever sign it wants. There's local ordinances and everything has to be approved by the landlord. Who pays for the electricity for your sign? Businesses all have two names. A legal entity name and the name that the public knows you by. The public needs to be able to figure out who to sue if they need to, so the DBA name (which is the name you hang over your door) has to be traceable to a legal entity that can be served process.
There's something called Tenant Improvement (TI) allowance which is customary. That means when you finish your construction and open your business, the landlord often cuts you a check to cover some or all of your construction costs. For the business I opened, TImeas typically in the $50 k range. I didn't get TI. In my case I got free rent while construction was being done and for the first 4 months of being open. After that I had half price rent which gradually ramped up to full rent to give my business time to ramp up.
Them there's things like exclusivity clauses. No other massage business can come into my shopping center because I got exclusivity. There's clauses on who can move in next door. When you're running a massage shop you don't want a kickboxing or karate studio moving in next door, or a Korean kimchi restaurant where that emits foul odors..[/QUOTE]I know nothing about renting commercial space. Grimmy's excellent description can serve as a guide for anyone who wants to open their own AMP.
Many of the masseuses we see are undocumented. That does NOT mean that they are trafficked. Most Mexican gardeners are in the same boat. Also, they are not trafficked.
You will note that most Chinese masseuses have 626 area code phones. They live in subletted rooms and apartments in the SG Valley. These subletted rooms and apartments are advertised in the local Chinese newspapers and online. They may be illegal—I do not know—but they are widespread. I even knew of a Chinese colleague, now a scientist working at the World Bank in Beijing, who rented one of these rooms when he was studying for his PhD at USC. My friend was not trafficked. Neither are the masseuses who stay in these modest and very economical accommodations.
The women are used to this kind of arrangement. In China, millions of migrant workers who move from the country to the big cities have similar arrangements or even live in dormitory-style houses with four to six people in a room. Yes, in China, some of these migrants are also sex workers, on call in brothels, saunas, and massage parlors. In other cases, the businesses provide rooms for these sex workers.
A portion of these Chinese big-city sex workers migrate legally or illegally to the US or other countries. They learn about AMPs from friends and relatives and earn five times what they earn in China, but they usually save a lot, send a lot home to family, and continue a meager existence.
I am still looking for a young intellectually inclined monger to start a survey of AMP women. Knowledge of Mandarin preferable. Pay is zero. Any takers?
Prostitution in China, History and Today
[QUOTE=Grimmy23;6937983]Back in my previous career before owning my own business, I spent countless hours hanging around various types of factories in Asia and other parts of the country. Some of those were stereotypical Chinese sweatshops with absolutely deplorable working and living conditions.[/QUOTE]There is so much to unpack in Grimmy's post. Lets start with the first sentence:
"Back in my previous career before owning my own business, I spent countless hours hanging around various types of factories in Asia and other parts of the country. ".
In which country is Asia located, Grimmy?
I assume you mean the PRC. Is that correct?
It is also not clear which time period Grimmy is talking about. If I assume that his estimate of factory workers' wages is accurate, it was probably the early to mid 1990's. I get that from the attached graph showing the exponential increase in average Chinese manufacturing wage vs year. In the early 1990's, Chinese workers did make very little.
I have a problem with Grimmy's story about the factory boss offering any employee that Grimmy fancies for a night of fun. Even during the extreme corruption of the late Jiang Zemin and early Hu Jintao eras, it is highly unlikely that the boss could just offer any factory worker, like they do from lineups in brothels. Probably a misunderstanding.
You see Grimmy, I did not like you spend "countless hours" in Asia, I spent 18 years there, almost 12 months each year. I have a Chinese wife and I am fluent in Mandarin. I have studied Chinese culture especially related to health care. So lets go on.
The boss could have no doubt found a girl willing to share a good time with Grimmy but not just any girl. To understand this, some historical context is helpful.
It is so helpful to understand historical context of a cultural phenomenon.
Prostitution was a state supported profession during most of the Chinese dynasties. There was no shame in visiting a brothel in Tang (618-906 AD), Song (960-1279 AD), Ming (1368-1640 AD) or Qing (1644-1912 AD) China. During the Song and Ming Dynasties (960-1640 AD, about 700 years), brothels were openly frequented by poets, artists, scholars and nobility. These customers had to provide monetary gifts and court the prostitutes to win their favor. If a prostitute did not want to make love with a customer, even after he had paid her, that was her right. In the preceding Tang Dynasty (300 years), prostitutes were greatly respected as women who had broken free from rural poverty to achieve economic success and sexual freedom. During the reign of the Tang empress Wu, prostitutes achieved their highest status in Chinese society. To sum it up, there were never any sanctions on prostitutes, male or female in Ancient China until the CCP took over in 1949. The CCP banned and successfully suppressed prostitution.
Since imperial China's sex workers had served the wealthy classes and since the CCP's goal was to create a classless society, between 1950 and 1978, prostitution was crushed with police raids and confinement of sex workers in re-education centers.
In parallel with the Chinese commercial sex industry, there was a larger society of millions of Chinese families who believed that, though sex was fun, its main purpose was procreation. In these situations, first marriages for boys were arranged by the families and were a kind of business deal to mutually benefit the two families. There was a silver lining for the groom. If his family farm was economically successful, he could, after his first wife had a few children, take and keep more wives for more fun and more children. Read for example "The Good Earth" by Pearl Buck.
This did not work out so well for rural women who had little or no choice regarding marriage partners, who were forbidden to have extra-marital relationships and who could not divorce their husbands. During the CCP period (1950 1978), a more gender equal society was created by allowing only one wife per husband and allowing fairly easy divorce for either party. However, premarital and extramarital sex was forbidden for everyone.
In 1978, Deng Xiao Ping, the new leader of the PRC instituted widespread economic and political reforms. Private businesses spread across China, especially in designated areas along the southeast coast. The hukou laws that restricted the internal travel of rural people were loosened and prostitution bans were lifted or not enforced. This resulted in massive relocations of people from rural to urban regions and the growth of a wealthy class of business elites who had money to burn on recreational fun. Young rural women and girls, some single, some married moved from the poor rural areas to the growing prosperity of the cities to work in factories and shops so they could better support themselves and their families.
These new female arrivals also found employment in brothels, saunas, massage parlors.
[URL]https://pornzog.com/video/11127138/an-erotic-masseuse-little-wei-by-party-manny/[/URL]
As hotel ding-dong xiaojies shown here.
[URL]https://pornzog.com/video/12354886/an-erotic-masseuse-little-sugar-original-by-party-manny/[/URL]
And in the alley cathouses like the one shown below.
[URL]https://motherless.com/AB6FB8D[/URL]
Some of these young women sought out jobs in the hotel, restaurant and entertainment industries. They had hopes to meet wealthy travelling Chinese and foreign executives and professionals. Their visions included both compensated dates and long term lucrative relationships with male visitors from other Chinese cities, from Hong Kong, Taiwan and from foreign countries. Enter our hero, Grimmy. It would have been so interesting if Grimmy had accepted the date with the front desk hotel employee and lived to tell us about it. On one occasion, a waitress approached me with a similar proposition. After she ended her shift, I walked her home quite platonically. I took her number but never saw her again.
This was part of the Chinese sexual revolution. One study of Chinese women's sexual practices found that as many as 29% of older men who had undergone graduate education had, at some time in their lives, paid money or other material compensation directly for sexual services. This is higher than in the US or most European countries. [URL]https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2057150X221114599[/URL].
Seen in the context of the prior imperial history of social acceptance of prostitution, this sexual revolution was like a re-awakening of an ancient cultural norm. Like their predecessors in the dynastic era, young women who, in childhood, had experienced destitution and the humiliation of arranged marriages on the farms were elevated to the status of modern day concubines and courtesans. They did not have to marry a grubby farmer in their home town. Instead, they could have countless husbands, each for a few hours and each providing financial support that was unheard of back home.
A part of this revolution was the liberation of both men and women to receive material benefits in exchange for sex. Yes, this applied to young men sought out by wealthy Chinese women as well as to female pros. One study showed that 2 to 5 % of Chinese women had purchased sex from a man during their lifetimes.
[URL]https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2057150X221114599[/URL]
Note that this is much higher than similar percentages of western women who pay for sex with men. I experienced two such "dates" where Chinese business women paid for my air transport and hotels to their home cities and gave me an allowance if I would sexually entertain them in hotel rooms. These two women were far from attractive but were ardent lovers who especially enjoyed cunnilingus, a treat that they had a hard time finding among local men. Attached is a photo of one of my two "clients" enjoying my company.
Unfortunately, Chairman Xi stifled this sexual revolution starting in about 2012 until the present. It is still fairly easy to find pros in the big cities but the rates have gone up, the quality of service has dropped and it is difficult to impossible to take the girl to your hotel room.
I am a cautious fan of Chairman Xi because he has done much to alleviate the poverty that in rural areas and he has supported health care and education in China. However, I do wish he would allow the return of ding-dong xiaojies and massage saunas.
I hope you guys will all visit China some day. But please make an effort to understand this wonderful country. Read a good history like that by Spencer or Wasserstrom. Read something about Confucianism and go with an open mind.
