Massage Parlor Reports

[QUOTE=Redsox2005;4438994]I'll tell ya one time I went to do a double with Kandi and her British friend. It was scheduled for 2. At 12:30 I hooked up with Paige for a quick BBBJ, and off I went. Had my double with Kand, I busted a nut and off I go. Almost home I'm a few miles from KMS. I say fuck it and go on in. I ask for and meet Yuki. Anything and everything went down. Fucked her ass long and hard, she sucked my dick long and deep. No matter what, I could not get that third nut out. But. It all felt great. One of the best days of my life.

Sox.[/QUOTE]Holy shit, what a day. That is serious stamina, and anyone of a certain age understands that we aren't 16 anymore!

[QUOTE=Laharvardkid;4439791]Sorry but you are mistaken. Maybe it was someone else, why would I want to meet you! I think the administrator can see all!

Laharvardkid.[/QUOTE]Not you LA, that FLFun guy lmao.

[QUOTE=Black22;4438820]I've been visiting Ashai on and off for the past few years. Service and overall experience has been consistent year after year until. My visit last week. Was greeted by 40ish lady dressed in workout type gear (very inaccessible). While age was not so much the issue, the less than enthusiastic greeting, apparel and looking her age were red flags. As I had always had a great experiences decided to stay. Led to room paid. 8 for the hr. Table shower was mechanical and quick, on the flip she covered me with a washcloth at which point I knew service was going to be way off point.

Back to the room. Ok massage, stayed out of roaming distance. On the flip, limited roaming, stayed clothed & standard finish. Tipped. 4.

I may have had a bad draw but would not return. Hoping to see some good reports in the future.[/QUOTE]I've stopped going there. The woman are too old. Coffee is in her 60's and the other regualr ladys are in their 60's. Since Asian they look in 40's! With that kind of service I for sure would not return. Magic and natural not to far away. Much better.

[QUOTE=Alexdim;4439768]What is a BO? I am in orlando area I would love if you can give me the address.[/QUOTE]Blue Ocean on Colonial Dr.

[QUOTE=SuitNTie420;4439966]Not you LA, that FLFun guy lmao.[/QUOTE]Come on man, why would you start out your day with complete fabrications? What I said exactly was, If you doubt the validity of my review, I will be off work at 6, I am going back to Magic and you can meet me there and watch me fuck her, obviously any normal person would understand this to be sarcasm and wouldn't actually expect you to sit in the corner and watch me fuck this girl (would be a little strange). I provided you the exact location, copies of the reviews (over 100) from the sister site and you still said "everyone knows the only magic is in Altamonte. Instead of being a stand up guy and acting like a man and admitting you were wrong, you decided to seek sympathy by twisting and misquoting my private message. I'm not going to go back and forth with you on this, be a man and go check it out yourself, if your not getting full service, you would be the only one.

Dreamt that I went to you during a lunch break. Did standard hour house fee (.8) and got Jenny. I've seen her before and it was a great experience. BBBJ in the table shower was something that hasn't been done in a while for me. Total $$.2 for hour. Would definitely repeat in my dreams.

Second visit to a lmt that works in a waxing studio off SandLake very nice facility she is a older Latina with ad dons front and rear. First visit nothing was offered even with me showing her signs. Second visit she felt more comfortable and everything was on the table full FS. She is very cautious. Very tight body!

After see a report about this girl in KMS which says that she had a really nice ass, I set up an appointment with her to give a try. I arrive and then Mia come up to receive me and told her I had an app for that time. So she take me to room and made me wait for coco, she entered and soon I saw her I just thought (this is the real good ass and body that I read on forum) she looks regular, good body nice ass and titis. Nothing special, so we greeted and pay house fee 8 for H, went to TS she just rubed her body when I was face down, and whit jr just a hand rubber while she was cleaning me. After that we went to room and set to $. 6 for H, she started BBBJ whit a lot of wipes it looks like every time she go out she clean herself wit a wipe (WTF that kills me a little) she was moaning so I just set my mind to enjoy it. I asked for DATY and she climbed and we did maths wit 69, then I just ask to be dressed with the hat for the party, and I pound her, mish, CG, RCG, doggy (what I felt I lite rushed because she always said "I want you to come on me) at the beginning was turning me on, but after I felt rushed. So I'm doggy she asked me if I was going to cum and I thought I have H what's the pressure? So I told her I can come in BBBJ she agree and started few minutes larger I came up hard, she went to find hot towels and clean us up, listerine and I was good for the first 30 min. Then she came up and finish my other 30 min with massage. While I was there a few mongers arrived and she went out to take care of them. Finally I thought the same as first time here. Didn't enjoy as I like to enjoy this kind of encounters.

Be safe and enjoy your dreams.

So I went to La La on the east side of town the other day, someone here had a generally positive review. I figured if I could at least get a decent massage then that would be good enough. I was met by a cute asian lady at the front, thin but thick in key places, which I liked. She offered me a four-hand massage and I accepted because why not? I was lead to the room and I got ready, waited a couple of minutes and she and an slightly older (but pleasant) lady came in with her. The massage itself was really nice, and they gently teased the boys every now and then. I did very little otc roaming after the first tease to reciprocate, but I really did almost fall asleep during the massage. On the flip they teased and smiled and had very sweet attitudes, though the standard HE was all they offered. Once that was done there were still about 15 minutes left and they used up every minute given me a scalp, neck, and foot massage. Overall a very good albeit tame experience. House fee was 60 iirc (per masseuse). I probably won't do the 4-hands again for a while unless the menu opens up over time, but I'll probably go back for the massage.

That girl can suckstart a Harley with the key off. Went for a dream at Shangri la with Mona today. She tried to tell me her name was Mia LOL. There is no mistaking her head game and dfk. I told her about my last visit getting cut short by 20 minutes and she made up for it. Had a really nice ts with lots of play on the table. Then back to the room where she suck started my Harley ending in a cimws. Then moved to 69 where I made her legs tremble. Then to cg, rcg, then to k9, and some mish where she kept telling me fuck me harder, don't stop. She had two o's there then back to 69 for another cimws. This time she had a dibble on her lip and licked it up, telling me how good it tasted. I drink my pineapple juice every day to make it tasty for the girls that do like the cim. At that point it had been an hour and a half. She told me you come back every day, you fuck me so good. If I lived closer I probably would go daily to see her, but it's a little over an hour drive for me depending on traffic. It's a shame when a girl does that every day for a living and gets more o's then I do as a customer. I told her that and she offered to suck it again LOL. I told her that's ok, you already gave me an extra half hour. Used some mouthwash, took a bottle of water and was on my way with an empty sack and a smile.

I take some enhancers some time, especially if she's really hot like Nikkole or it's nut #2.

Sox.

[QUOTE=SCJames;4439919]Holy shit, what a day. That is serious stamina, and anyone of a certain age understands that we aren't 16 anymore![/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=SuitNTie420;4439966]Not you LA, that FLFun guy lmao.[/QUOTE]Sorry, I miss understood! What is wrong with some people, aren't we all looking for the same thing here. Ignore him!

[QUOTE=JohnyBig;4439994]I've stopped going there. The woman are too old. Coffee is in her 60's and the other regualr ladys are in their 60's. Since Asian they look in 40's! With that kind of service I for sure would not return. Magic and natural not to far away. Much better.[/QUOTE]Agreed, 10 years ago they were my go to.

I got everything but FS and the ladies were at the least 7's or 8's!

New. Friendly. Young. Chinese.

[QUOTE=Laharvardkid;4440780]Sorry, I miss understood! What is wrong with some people, aren't we all looking for the same thing here. Ignore him![/QUOTE]I am not going to go back and forth here and feel a little strange that I have to continue defending a review that was simply put up to help other board members find great service. For the record SuiteNtie420 provided a quote that was both inaccurate and twisted, I have been to almost every spa in Orlando, I travel for work throughout the US, central & South America and review many of my experiences on several different forums that I belong to. I review them because this is the entire reason we have all joined, to share accurate and concise information that helps other mongers make an educated decision on where to visit. On a rare occasion everyone eventually runs across that one douche-bag that prefers to create confusion and controversy rather than use the information provided. I had reviewed a place on OBT that I have been to at least 20 times, There are 2 spas with the same or very similar names and in all fairness to the douche-bag, I should have identified the one I was referring about but did not want to break any forum rules by giving the address. Two members questioned the review because of the identical name Laharvard questioned the review but in a very respectful non dick head way and later, like a real man acknowledged the other spa, whereas Suite continued to be a douche, continued to manipulate the board by twisting a PM. Yes, I said, if you still do not believe full service is offered here, meet me at Magic followed by "so you can watch me fuck this girl" obviously this was written as sarcasm and any normal person would understand this to be only sarcasm and not some Jr high school bullshit threat. I apologize in advance for wasting everyone time reading a post that provides little to no AMP information but felt this had to be cleared up.

[QUOTE=Thankful9888;4440835]New. Friendly. Young. Chinese.[/QUOTE]I stop there today. An old 50+ non-attractive woman. I walked right out!

Any recommendations for a great rim job at one of these places? Thanks!!

[QUOTE=LongDickSstyle;4441783]Any recommendations for a great rim job at one of these places? Thanks!![/QUOTE]All the girls at Shangri la do it. But pretty sure you could go to you massage or KSM also.

I don't get to the Orlando / Kissimmee area often, but lately my go-to place is JC Accupressure on West Osceola in Kissimmee. I was staying about 1/2 hour away, but it was worth the drive. Saw Lili, an early to mid 30's, very friendly, pretty Chinese girl. She greeted me by holding my hand and leading me to the room, with a little touching and hugging. That is often a clue to me that good things will happen, and it was definitely true with Lili! In the past, I have seen Sara and Michelle, and both were delightful, as was Lili. Michelle had told me she didn't like reviews, as the place may be somewhat UTR, and she only worked by appointment. I respected that, and I respect their desire not to jeopardize their license. So any contributing SM's that want more info can pm me. I paid. 6 for hh and left a similar amount as a tip, and left quite happy!

That's why there's a HUGE difference in what I take from reviews from someone with over let's say 200 posts over someone with less than 50. Thanks for letting us know about this place.

Sox.

[QUOTE=Barolo;4441774]I stop there today. An old 50+ non-attractive woman. I walked right out![/QUOTE]

I thought Tokyo was going to reopen seen some activity their the last few days driving by but today as I drove by I seen I different sign posted on door and the window signs are gone. Sad this use to be my goto place. I went a few times and they must of expected to be slow and I ended up getting a four hand massage with 2 naked females for no extra money. Once they got comfortable with you the sky's the limit. I have had everything from licking the back side right down to the boys body slides. It was at the point that FS was going to be next but went the weekend of the big bust and the front door was opened but the next door locked and nobody was home. Sad day. But now natural and magic are my goto natural I have them naked by the flip and things get very close to FS but hasn't happened yet I'll find our this weekend. Magic I have been a few times and only get a good massage and heavy teasing but just a standard finish. But with all the newer reviews of magic I'll have to try my luck in the next few days.

Has anyone been to (I think) it's called my dream spa in altamonte on 436 hit me up with any experiences and pricing.

Thanks.

[QUOTE=Redsox2005;4442886]That's why there's a HUGE difference in what I take from reviews from someone with over let's say 200 posts over someone with less than 50. Thanks for letting us know about this place.

Sox.[/QUOTE]You really can't look at the number of posts either, I have been here for almost 8 years with less than 10 posts, mainly because I don't feel the need to post about the same places and the same ladies as everyone else but I have been to all of them numerous times. Some guys just post constantly so they get the post numbers up but it's not necessary. There was a guy on here maybe 6 years ago that had tons of posts and most were all lies but he had everyone believing his penthouse letter reviews so just the number of posts doesn't mean anything.

As for everyone else here arguing about what you might or might not be getting at AMP's, remember that YMMV, as I've had numerous experiences at AMP's that you guys say are not FS so before calling someone out about their reviews maybe you should think he might be doing things differently than you, it's possible.

[QUOTE=Whiskeysours;4436234]Do they even exist anymore? Would love to get some intel on an American provider who is flexible with draping and perhaps extras. Willing to TOFTT if someone has a good prospect.[/QUOTE]Recommend these. All from rub ratings or adult look

Rosario. Go now.

Eva. Fun sometime if so.

Ellie. Fun if able to locate.

Bee. On list, ok.

Alexa. On list, actually good rub.

And theres more around hit or miss.

I guess this could go anywhere from AMPs to UTR providers. Anyone know of ladies with large areolas or large thick nipples? Will be down in Orlando next month, and that is kinda my thing. Feel free to PM. Thanks.

[QUOTE=TreeFiddy;4443610]Recommend these. All from rub ratings or adult look

Rosario. Go now.

Eva. Fun sometime if so.

Ellie. Fun if able to locate.

Bee. On list, ok.

Alexa. On list, actually good rub.

And theres more around hit or miss.[/QUOTE]Did you get anything beyond a he with Rosario?

[QUOTE=Fred5568;4442929]I thought Tokyo was going to reopen seen some activity their the last few days driving by but today as I drove by I seen I different sign posted on door and the window signs are gone. Sad this use to be my goto place. I went a few times and they must of expected to be slow and I ended up getting a four hand massage with 2 naked females for no extra money. Once they got comfortable with you the sky's the limit. I have had everything from licking the back side right down to the boys body slides. It was at the point that FS was going to be next but went the weekend of the big bust and the front door was opened but the next door locked and nobody was home. Sad day. But now natural and magic are my goto natural I have them naked by the flip and things get very close to FS but hasn't happened yet I'll find our this weekend. Magic I have been a few times and only get a good massage and heavy teasing but just a standard finish. But with all the newer reviews of magic I'll have to try my luck in the next few days.

Has anyone been to (I think) it's called my dream spa in altamonte on 436 hit me up with any experiences and pricing.

Thanks.[/QUOTE]Check your inbox. I filled you in on what I know in the area including My Dream Spa.

[QUOTE=DooMutt;4405730]There is an AMP on Citrus Tower Blvd in Clermont. Has anyone had an experience at that location. Would you recommend it? How was it? Thanks.[/QUOTE]I checked out Elegant last week. The massage was excellent! The ending was very good. The Asian masseuse. Not so much. If you are looking for a young hottie this is not your place. Looking for a great massage that gets the job done and you have found a winner.

Hey yall. Been a while since I posted. So here is my report.

Luz on OBT. Went there a couple days ago. Nice body. Huge rack. Didn't get to see or touch. Mr happy didn't get happy. 65 dollars plus 20 because it was a good massage. Not of hint of more to be had.

[URL]http://adultsearch.combod[/URL]why-rubs /1587875 Went here today. Same gal used to work down near Kissimmee, Buena Ventura Lakes, at a parlor down there.

Good rub. Ad says Zen relaxation, and Tantra. She should remove that. Not a hint of any sensuality at all. I agreed to $. 4. Was worth maybe 80.

At the end, she asked if I wanted a couple minutes of massage anywhere else. I declined.

Couple weeks ago. Ocean on Hiawassee, in Publix plaza. I believe full service can be had here. BBBJ for sure. Ask for Fiona.

Golden June, near the Mouse. H. E. Is fur sure here. Two different gals, same ending.

Girl friend is out of town for 3 weeks. I will have more to report.

Play safe.

[QUOTE=LastsLonger;4444004]I guess this could go anywhere from AMPs to UTR providers. Anyone know of ladies with large areolas or large thick nipples? Will be down in Orlando next month, and that is kinda my thing. Feel free to PM. Thanks.[/QUOTE]The only one I have seen is Mona at Shangri La on sand lake I have been searching around as well and she has the biggest so far.

[QUOTE=Fred5568;4442929]I thought Tokyo was going to reopen seen some activity their the last few days driving by but today as I drove by I seen I different sign posted on door and the window signs are gone. Sad this use to be my goto place. I went a few times and they must of expected to be slow and I ended up getting a four hand massage with 2 naked females for no extra money. Once they got comfortable with you the sky's the limit. I have had everything from licking the back side right down to the boys body slides. It was at the point that FS was going to be next but went the weekend of the big bust and the front door was opened but the next door locked and nobody was home. Sad day. But now natural and magic are my goto natural I have them naked by the flip and things get very close to FS but hasn't happened yet I'll find our this weekend. Magic I have been a few times and only get a good massage and heavy teasing but just a standard finish. But with all the newer reviews of magic I'll have to try my luck in the next few days.

Has anyone been to (I think) it's called my dream spa in altamonte on 436 hit me up with any experiences and pricing.

Thanks.[/QUOTE]If your looking to hit Magic, remember the recent posts are about Magic in Orlando, not Altamonte. Hit my Dream Spa in the past was FS at that time, just a little on the higher side price wise. Good times, but FS not available at Natural.

[QUOTE=LiveLife6996;4440515]Second visit to a lmt that works in a waxing studio off SandLake very nice facility she is a older Latina with ad dons front and rear. First visit nothing was offered even with me showing her signs. Second visit she felt more comfortable and everything was on the table full FS. She is very cautious. Very tight body![/QUOTE]Whats the name of the place or atleast some landmarks so I can find it later this week when I'm on that side. Thanks.

[QUOTE]Couple weeks ago. Ocean on Hiawassee, in Publix plaza. I believe full service can be had here. BBBJ for sure. Ask for [/QUOTE]I can confirm that FS is available here. I'm glad to hear Fiona is back. I had a great experience with her around August of last year. I've tried that location twice since and while FS was offered it was lackluster.

Bella from Shangri-La.

Was in Orlando on business I am just getting the time to post this.

First time around the Orlando area, so I did my research here on the forums and I am glad I found this place. Came in a little after 6 pm was greeted by Bella, very pretty and wearing a very tight and revealing dress, I asked for an hour, handed her the house fee and to the room hand in hand we went.

In the room she did a quick grab on jr and said "we take shower first" followed by nice dfk. I undressed as she watched me, which was a turn on and made me hard as if I was back in high school. In the shower room she turned on the water, set the temp just right and asked me to sit. As I sat on the pad she took her dress of very sexy like smiling at me asking if I liked what I saw. She had a beautiful body with a nice set of natural b's with a well trimmed kitty. "Of course I do, and I can't wait to feel you on top of me" I said. I laid face down on the table and let her do what she does best. Lathered me up from head to toe making sure to fully clean the important spots. I didn't get any TUMA like others had reported getting but that was ok cause I really enjoyed everything else she did, BBBJ, body to body slide back and front with more BBBJ, a little 69 and plenty of lfk to dfk. Towelled me dry and back to the massage room we went.

On the way to the room we ran into another girl, didn't ask her name but she was hot too. She had a nice rack on her and a tattoo at the base of her neck. She stopped Bella and I for a quick grab at my cock, she looked at me and told me to make sure I come back and see her, she wanted to feel me in her mouth. She did this while holding my cock and giving me a quick dfk, I almost lost it right there.

Back in the massage room Bella removes my towel and hers and asks what I was looking for. Told her everything and handed her the going fee that's been reported on here. We went through all the motions ecstatically, BBBJ, daty very clean and tasty, cg, asian cg, reverse cg, k9 and finishing in the bag during missionary.

We had some time left so she gave me a nice back massage. We talked about what I did for a living and where I was from, turns out she used to work at Lily A in Las Vegas. Guys if you ever find yourself in Vegas definitely hit up Lily A on Tropicana. There are plenty of reviews about this place here, it's the go to place for young, hot and extremely fun masseuses. You will get pretty much the same treatment from the girls at Lily A, minus the table shower - god I wish they did.

I will be back to Orlando in about a month and I am already counting the days. I hope to see Bella again, and make time to see the one with the back of the neck tattoo.

[QUOTE=MolonLabe87;4445093]I can confirm that FS is available here. I'm glad to hear Fiona is back. I had a great experience with her around August of last year. I've tried that location twice since and while FS was offered it was lackluster.[/QUOTE]Saw Fiona awhile back and loves to fuck and gives great BJ. A bit older maybe 50 plus but has great bolt ons to suck on. Also had a girl Eva who fucked like a rabbit but not sure if still there. It's been awhile since I've been there and girls are always changing. Overall it was a good full service location.

[QUOTE=HardBall99;4442575]I don't get to the Orlando / Kissimmee area often, but lately my go-to place is JC Accupressure on West Osceola in Kissimmee. I was staying about 1/2 hour away, but it was worth the drive. Saw Lili, an early to mid 30's, very friendly, pretty Chinese girl. She greeted me by holding my hand and leading me to the room, with a little touching and hugging. That is often a clue to me that good things will happen, and it was definitely true with Lili! In the past, I have seen Sara and Michelle, and both were delightful, as was Lili. Michelle had told me she didn't like reviews, as the place may be somewhat UTR, and she only worked by appointment. I respected that, and I respect their desire not to jeopardize their license. So any contributing SM's that want more info can pm me. I paid. 6 for hh and left a similar amount as a tip, and left quite happy![/QUOTE]Thanks for the post. I Googled JC Accupressure and recognized the address right away. The place is definitely not UTR it's been reviewed on here plenty of times. They simply changed the name from Balance Massage. About 2 years ago or maybe more this place was reviewed at least every other day. Michelle, Amy, and some others were mentioned. I believe I was one of the first to review Michelle on here and then after about a few months the reviews died down. But she complained back in 2017 about the same thing LOL. Dudes from the board were running over there telling her about the reviews. Here is a screenshot of my review from back then and you'll see what I mean. Good to know that business is still booming and Michelle is still there. I might check out this "new" chick. It might simply be a girl from back then with a different name.

[QUOTE=HardBall99;4442575]I don't get to the Orlando / Kissimmee area often, but lately my go-to place is JC Accupressure on West Osceola in Kissimmee. I was staying about 1/2 hour away, but it was worth the drive. Saw Lili, an early to mid 30's, very friendly, pretty Chinese girl. She greeted me by holding my hand and leading me to the room, with a little touching and hugging. That is often a clue to me that good things will happen, and it was definitely true with Lili! In the past, I have seen Sara and Michelle, and both were delightful, as was Lili. Michelle had told me she didn't like reviews, as the place may be somewhat UTR, and she only worked by appointment. I respected that, and I respect their desire not to jeopardize their license. So any contributing SM's that want more info can pm me. I paid. 6 for hh and left a similar amount as a tip, and left quite happy![/QUOTE]I have been going here for the Lat few years and I am taking it off my go to list. The service just keeps going down hill. Started off as decent full service. Then it went to good massage with happy ending. To the last few times I've been wasn't even offered anything extra was just a massage. So unless you are still a regular and know the girls well enough my advice is to stay away.

Staying in Kissimmee. What's the best around this area?

[QUOTE=FunSpot10;4444698]The only one I have seen is Mona at Shangri La on sand lake I have been searching around as well and she has the biggest so far.[/QUOTE]Shangri La sounds like the spot based on catching up on here. Everything else top notch as well?

You ever come to the bold north, I can fill ya in. That being said nothing like down here from the reviews however.

[QUOTE=Bertil;4445223]Thanks for the post. I Googled JC Accupressure and recognized the address right away. The place is definitely not UTR it's been reviewed on here plenty of times. They simply changed the name from Balance Massage. About 2 years ago or maybe more this place was reviewed at least every other day. Michelle, Amy, and some others were mentioned. I believe I was one of the first to review Michelle on here and then after about a few months the reviews died down. But she complained back in 2017 about the same thing LOL. Dudes from the board were running over there telling her about the reviews. Here is a screenshot of my review from back then and you'll see what I mean. Good to know that business is still booming and Michelle is still there. I might check out this "new" chick. It might simply be a girl from back then with a different name.[/QUOTE]I was told once by a girl who used to own an AMP in Daytona that reviews of her place were causing marital problems since her husband saw those reviews.

Another thing I've heard was, and you guys wouldn't believe this, a girl who used to work in winter park found out that a customer she trusted constantly wrote reviews about her on this website even though she told him that she didn't like reviews. Then she figured out that he was the one who wrote all the reviews. She found his wife's Facebook and told her what her husband had done. The couple almost divorced and the girl had to move. Definitely not a HE.

If a girl specifically said that she didn't like reviews and wanted to stay low key, I would respect that.

[QUOTE=LawChase;4445511]I was told once by a girl who used to own an AMP in Daytona that reviews of her place were causing marital problems since her husband saw those reviews.

Another thing I've heard was, and you guys wouldn't believe this, a girl who used to work in winter park found out that a customer she trusted constantly wrote reviews about her on this website even though she told him that she didn't like reviews. Then she figured out that he was the one who wrote all the reviews. She found his wife's Facebook and told her what her husband had done. The couple almost divorced and the girl had to move. Definitely not a HE.

If a girl specifically said that she didn't like reviews and wanted to stay low key, I would respect that.[/QUOTE]Def not a happy ending and the monger played his cards wrong. Poor fellar. I'll hold off on the reviews if I want to be greedy and not share haha. But eventually I give out details. It really depends on circumstances and the provider. In the case of Balance, the reviews were abundant and there was no way they would of figured out who posted reviews. There were just way too many and they all sounded the same.