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Actually, unless you have some "significant other" reason to play it low it might be worth investigating the training of said dog. Drug dogs are not usually taught to "jump".
If the dog is not trained, or did not provide the right signal, a civil suit could pay your mongering bills for a while.
I have more experience with these police stops than I care to admit, and I think the police in the USA are generally honest and follow procedure. But they are humans and they have a tough job, so they can get angry or disgusted. The worst I've encountered was very aggressive questioning -- one time a cop said that I "must admit I was looking for prostitutes" or he would arrest me ! After thinking hard for a minute about calling his bluff, I humbly admitted. He read me the Riot Act, no doubt proud of his moral superiority. And he let me go.
Assuming they are honest, then the best policy would be to let the one or two officers search your car. Usually they call backup anyway, so then there are more witnesses. The key goal, I think, is to be cooperative and not piss them off. Because if I'm not mistaken most towns have laws against cruising with the intention of finding prostitutes, and then it's a judgement call on the part of the police officers to arrest you for that. The more you cooperate, the more lenient they will be. Simple human nature. I suspect it would be difficult to get conviction for such an arrest, but for many guys (like me) just the arrest would be a huge problem. And I've never been arrested.
One other comment: streets are to be avoided. I still cruise sometimes out of old habit, but rarely pick up anymore. Not much out there. Instead, CL, eros, and AMPs are the way to go. Far less chance of these police encounters.
The Editor suggested that I add this posting to this area of the forum to benefit all the readers. I had posted the following as an answer to the basic question:
"If LE catch you picking a girl up or driving around with her won't they pull you over and arrest you? Do they give you a ticket or do they call the hook and lock you up?"
Here is my response:
Please read the entire posting.
Technically, prostitution, is defined as sex for hire.
That being said, just driving around with a prostitute in your car, having not discussed sex or money should technically get you scared at best, if you are stopped. BUT:
The LEO can make life hell for you if they desire. Some posters on this board are well aware of that. Even though they did nothing illegal.
If the SW is wanted for anything or has illegal drugs in her possession (which is not uncommon amongst SW's), they can arrest you for possession and depending on the amount of drugs possibly confiscate your vehicle.
If she is wanted for anything, you could be considered harboring a criminal. You can be ticketed for loitering (and maybe more).
Ticketed for picking up a hitchhiker (if not allowed in that area).
You can get a ticket for almost any made-up charge also, like running a stop sign or a red-light, an illegal u-turn or simply reckless driving.
There is no limit to what you can be stopped and ticketed for.
Odds of getting hauled off to jail and losing your car would only happen in a "sting" type operation. Or if you solicit a cop.
The problem with all the other potential violations that you could be written up for is that you are presumed guilty (similar to a speeding ticket) until you prove yourself innocent in court (or pay a fine. Which goes on your record).
If you are smart and know the area that you are in, and also know how to approach a SW and verify that they are not LE, most likely you will have no problem.
Remember. A LEO posing as a SW will almost never get in your car due to the risk that the LEO would be taking.
Also, depending on the city and whether it has had complaints about a certain area can cause extra pressure to crack down on SW's and their customers for a while.
There is no exact specifics that define what LE can or cannot do. If they want to make your life hell for a while, they can. Period.
If you have a good SW that you see on a regular basis and are pleased with the service and price, Stick with them. On the other hand, if you are looking for something new and play the game correctly, you should not run into problems.
Actually, I think some of us like the cat and mouse game along with finding that new SW. The pursuit may seem more rewarding than the conquest.
Bottom line is think with your brains and not your dick. If you feel uncomfortable, get out of the situation or don't say anything that will get you in trouble. Stay alive to play another day.
LE has more important things to do than to pull you over for having a known prositute in your car. In fact, if they get a call for something more urgent (before you a ticketed etc.) they will just leave.
You're question may sound simple but it is actually not an easy one to answer.
This news story originating from the Sarasota Herald Tribune shines a new light on the practice of using drug sniffing dogs to create probable cause for searching one's car. [url]http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/sep/21/me-drug-dog-results-can-be-spotty/[/url]
I have a question for legal beagles: there is discussion on the Providence escort board about the idea of getting a prepaid "monger phone" registered under a false name. Great idea, but strictly speaking is it illegal to register a cell phone under a false name?
[QUOTE=Vargr]I have a question for legal beagles: there is discussion on the Providence escort board about the idea of getting a prepaid "monger phone" registered under a false name. Great idea, but strictly speaking is it illegal to register a cell phone under a false name?[/QUOTE]
First, I would ask the service provider (not the salesperson) before you buy it. And then, I would check what they say with a call to your state's attorney general's office. You cannot be arrested for asking a question about what is legal and illegal. And, regardless of what the RI AG says, the answer in the other 49 states may be different.
Snake, I couldn't disagree more. Of course, when detained by a police officer always be polite, civil and courteous. Remember, one of the worst offenses in a cop's view is "contempt of cop, " which is a non-crime, but will lead to all sorts of really nasty retribution from the cop who is on the receiving end of it. And he can get away with it.
However, do not admit to anything. Ever! They will try all sorts of angles. Yelling at you, threatening you, shaming you, sympathizing with you, etc. , all in an effort to encourage you to incriminate yourself. Do not be fooled! They are not your friends, and they will use you if you let them. Exercise your right to remain silent. You cannot help yourself by talking. They are much better at this than you are, plus they have a huge tactical advantage over you when you are scared, alone and with a lot to lose.
Let them search your car? You do not have to give permission. Some would argue against it in any case. Others would say to allow it if you have nothing illegal in your car. But remember, a lot of things might be illegal that you would never think of.
You guys should spend a little time on Youtube. They have some very good and educational videos dealing with what to do if confronted by LE. Here is just one example:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch? V=yqMjMPlXzdA&feature=related[/url]
I've run into the police twice in prostitution-related incidents. The first time was over 25 years ago, and I was stopped with a SW in my car. I was young and caved in to all their intimidation. They let me go and kept the girl. I was lucky. They could have busted me for the shit they found in my car. Don't know why they didn't, to tell you the truth. Instead, all I got a lecture and an "angry cop" performance. You might think that proves you should go along with what they want, but I repeat, I was lucky.
The next time I was older, and caught when the cops pounded on the door of an incall girl I was visiting. Looking back, they had no real grounds to barge into a private residence (hers) without a warrant and push us around, but they did. This time I clammed up, ignored their games, but was polite. They let me go this time too, and they were very cool once they saw I was on to their tricks. You know what? They asked me if I was a cop! I guess that means I played it smart the way a cop would have. You be smart too.
Woodrow, I agree with you, and if the reader examines our posts carefully they should find we basically agree. Stay polite and silent.
As in explained in one of my anecdotes, I did cave into police pressure and admit what I was doing (and didn't get busted) but I don't recommend that, I was just giving an example of things that can happen. Nowadays, I stay as silent as possible and only answer in a non-incriminating way. Actually, nowadays I am much better at avoiding these confrontations altogether. "Get a room", as they say. ;)
This statement was posted on CL
"LE cannot do anything that would be considered entrapment. Here are a couple of things that they CANNOT DO. They CANNOT post a nude picture. AND they cannot post a fee for services. Just like being out on the streets, YOU have to make the first fee offer. They can nail you for that."
Any part of this statement true?
This is good news. Hopefully this will force more girls to work the streets again. I am hoping that LE cracks down even harder on CL.
([url]http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-10084304-93.html[/url] )
"Craigslist will require anyone posting ads to the Web's site's "erotic services" section to submit a working phone number and credit card, the online classified publication said Thursday."
Joint Statement with Attorneys General, NCMEC
November 6th, 2008 by jim
"Joint Statement with NCMEC and over 40 Attorneys General Detailing Measures to Prevent Illegal Activity and Improve Safety
craigslist Files 14 Lawsuits Against Software and Service Providers who Facilitate Misuse of Site
November 06, San Francisco, CA - craigslist announced today it is implementing sweeping new measures, in close partnership with state law enforcement and the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC), to prevent its online communities and classified ads from being misused for the facilitation of human trafficking, child exploitation, and other illegal activities.
The measures were outlined in a joint statement signed by craigslist, NCMEC, and the attorneys general of more than 40 U.S. states and territories, representing a broad collaborative effort spearheaded by Connecticut Attorney General Richard Blumenthal. The specific measures outlined in today’s joint statement were shaped during face-to-face meetings between Jim Buckmaster, CEO of craigslist, Attorney General Blumenthal, and representatives of NCMEC.
“Preventing site misuse and improving public safety are our highest priorities,” said Jim Buckmaster, CEO of craigslist, “and we are extremely appreciative of the encouragement we’ve received from the attorneys general and NCMEC.” He added, “The incidence of crime on craigslist is actually exceedingly low, considering the tens of millions of legitimate ads posted each month by well-intentioned users.” “But no amount of criminal activity is acceptable, and as craigslist has grown, we have become aware of instances where our free services were being misused to facilitate illegal activities.” Buckmaster continued, “We are unequivocally committed to stamping out misuse of the site and to improving safety for craigslist users, through preventative measures such as the ones we are announcing as part of the Joint Statement.”
Due in part to the growth of craigslist, businesses have sprung up selling software and other services designed to evade craigslist’s terms of use, and to circumvent its technical defenses against misuse, including phone verification. By offering services designed to undermine craigslist’s ability to enforce its terms of use, these businesses facilitate the placement of ads for illegal services that would otherwise be blocked by craigslist’s protective measures. craigslist has no tolerance for these activities and has filed 14 lawsuits and is sending “cease and desist” demands to numerous other companies and individuals offering such services. In addition, craigslist will investigate and provide information to state attorneys general for the prosecution of those engaging in and facilitating criminal activity.
craigslist is constantly working to improve its existing tools for enforcing its terms of use. In this regard, the company has continued to refine its protocols for blocking inappropriate postings and advertisements for illegal services. In addition, a flagging system accompanies each ad, so that inappropriate content can be identified by users for quick removal. craigslist has also implemented the industry standard PICS rating system for tagging adult content, to facilitate parental screening software on home computers.
craigslist recently implemented a telephone verification system for the “erotic services” section of the site, requiring a working phone number for advertisers, and enabling blacklisting of phone numbers for those who post inappropriate ads. Phone verification resulted in an 80% reduction in ad volume, and significantly increased compliance with site guidelines.
In addition to phone verification and other existing protective measures, craigslist will soon require credit card verification and a small fee per ad for posting in “erotic services”, to further encourage compliance with
site guidelines. Paid ads that violate site guidelines will be removed without refund. The company intends to donate 100% of net revenue generated from these ads to charity, with net revenue to be verified by an external auditor.
“Requiring credit card verification, and charging a fee to post in this category raises accountability to a point where we expect few illicit ads will remain,” says Buckmaster. “For those that do persist, telephone and credit card information will be available to law enforcement via subpoena. More than ever, those who would misuse craigslist to violate the law will find that craigslist is a very inhospitable place.”
The craigslist site is used by 40 million Americans each month, who represent a potent force for identifying and reporting illicit activity. In addition to participating in NCMEC’s Cybertipline program, and urging craigslist users to flag suspect postings and file a report anytime they suspect the exploitation of a minor or human trafficking, craigslist will work with NCMEC and the state attorneys general to further improve site messaging to build awareness of these important issues. Buckmaster added, “Human trafficking and child exploitation are despicable crimes, and in addition to working diligently to prevent such abuse, we want to do everything we can to raise awareness among craigslist users so that they will be even more vigila"
[url]http://blog.craigslist.org/2008/11/joint-statement-with-attorneys-general-ncmec/[/url]
Related to this topic, there's an interesting discussion on "Figueroa Street Walker Reports" on the Los Angeles board, especially posts from "Walter" who claims (somewhat credibly) to be a cop, and who provides entertaining insight into the police's motivations and methods, as well as info about the local scene.
Admin suggested they move their discussion here, but I suppose one reason this thread isn't more popular is that it's obscure. If you click on "All the Forums" from the main page and you will not see this thread in the "Special Interests" sub-forum unless you specifically click on "Special Interests" (only then do you see "Police Tactics & Legal Issues").
[QUOTE=Bath1234]This statement was posted on CL
"LE cannot do anything that would be considered entrapment. Here are a couple of things that they CANNOT DO. They CANNOT post a nude picture. AND they cannot post a fee for services. Just like being out on the streets, YOU have to make the first fee offer. They can nail you for that."
Any part of this statement true?[/QUOTE]
Most likely the truth or non-truth in this statement will be found in each different state's statutes. While every state has similar laws the statutes for each state are sometimes written slightly or largely differently. Case law (court decisions interpreting the law) is tailored to each state's statutes. So, what may be so in, say, New York may be very different in, say, Oregon.
I see a lot of bs about people getting and using prepaid CC with false info as not to trace back to them.
How stupid are they?
How many laws are they breaking?
I can think of a few federal laws such as money laundering and identity theft as possibilities.
At the least they could get you for unauthorized use, because that false person can not come forward and say you had permission.
To me this seems like a very foolish thing to do and add to your troubles.
The false phones are illegal in some STATES but the card is illegal everywhere.
I ran across this law today. This is another one of those ridiculous prostitution laws. I think this law was passed in lieu of impounding cars where the cops cannot prove solicitation. This law is still relatively easy avoid if you take the proper precautions and drive a good distance from where you pick up the SW. This the first time I have heard of such a law so I am uncertain how often the DA uses this. There are similar statutes in other states as well. The only good thing is that they can suspend you license for 30 days. The other option is for them to restrict your driving privileges for 3 months.
([url]http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d06/vc13201_5.htm[/url] )
Driving Privilege Suspension: Prostitution
"13201.5. (a) A court may suspend, for not more than 30 days, the privilege of any person to operate a motor vehicle upon conviction of subdivision (b) of Section 647 of the Penal Code where the violation was committed within 1,000 feet of a private residence and with the use of a vehicle.
(b) A court may suspend, for not more than 30 days, the privilege of any person to operate a motor vehicle upon conviction of subdivision (a) of Section 647 of the Penal Code, where a peace officer witnesses the violator pick up a person who is engaging in loitering with the intent to commit prostitution, as described in Section 653.22 of the Penal Code, and the violator subsequently engages with that person in a lewd act within 1,000 feet of a private residence and with the use of a vehicle. "
[QUOTE=Hargow20] ([url]http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d06/vc13201_5.htm[/url] )
Driving Privilege Suspension: Prostitution
"13201.5. (a) A court may suspend, for not more than 30 days, the privilege of any person to operate a motor vehicle upon conviction of subdivision (b) of Section 647 of the Penal Code where the violation was committed within 1,000 feet of a private residence and with the use of a vehicle.
(b) A court may suspend, for not more than 30 days, the privilege of any person to operate a motor vehicle upon conviction of subdivision (a) of Section 647 of the Penal Code, where a peace officer witnesses the violator pick up a person who is engaging in loitering with the intent to commit prostitution, as described in Section 653.22 of the Penal Code, and the violator subsequently engages with that person in a lewd act within 1,000 feet of a private residence and with the use of a vehicle. "[/QUOTE]
This law looks burdensome on first glance but there is some wiggle room within it. First, there's the language in the first sentence of (a) that says the court MAY suspend. This is permissive rather than mandatory language. It gives the court or DMV lattitude to use its own judgement, and a defense attorney negotiating room.
In the same sentence are the words, "upon conviction." Therefore it's not a given that a license will be suspended upon arrest or citation. A conviction must first be rendered by a court and there would, I am assuming, need to be some proof offered during that conviction that the act did in fact occur as prescribed by the law, i.e., within 1,000 feet of a private residence inside a car. Therefore it would seem there is room for a challenge if, for example, someone drove their car up to a SW, was outside of the car and completed an act or, in the case of an aggressive cop, the person was grabbed in the crotch through the window or outside the car but no money exchanged hands. In any event, the operative words of this part of the law is "upon conviction."
Section (b) is interesting in that it also uses permissive rather than mandatory language. It, too requires a conviction under the penal code before it can be imposed, and requires that the person pick up a SW. However, it also seems to require that the act of picking up a SW be witnessed by a peace officer (which section (a) does not require) and that somehow the peace officer has knowledge of the SW's activities or can otherwise prove that the SW is in fact a SW or is working at the time as a SW. However, this section also requires that the person picking up the SW does in fact engage in a lewd act, which of course would have to be proved under the penal code, which is why this law is dependent upon a penal code conviction.
The most interesting part of this law is that it appears designed to punish a person twice for engaging a SW, once under the penal code and once under the motor vehicle code of the state. I'm wondering if at some point someone caught up in this scenario will have the money to hire a good attorney to attack this as double punishment.