"Sugarbabies" / "Arrangements" Amateurs or Not?

I had two M&Gs where nothing was mentioned beforehand. At the end of the dinner I asked if they would like to have dinner again next week. I wasn't expecting to go to the FC that evening. I was walking the first POT to her car. Before she got in the car a leaned over to give her a kiss on the cheek. She backed away and asked if was going to give her any money. I thought WTF you want money for a kiss on the cheek. I told her if she would like to come to my place we could discuss the issue further. She had this look of disgust on her face and got in her car. For the second POT we had a really nice dinner together. I knew ahead of time that she was meeting some girlfriends later that evening. Therefore, I was not expecting a visit to the FC that evening assuming she was telling the truth. At the end of our dinner I asked if she would like to get together again. She said sure and wanted to know if I was going to give her any money tonight. I told her that if she could host tonight then we could discuss her allowance. At that point she said she was disappointed that I would not give her any money and walked away from the table. Based on those two events I have leaned toward getting expectations set up front. However, I have had a few M&Gs that turned out OK without agreeing up front. One came back to the FC and never asked for money. I was amazed.

[QUOTE=IluvSmellyFish;2574056]JL. You're conflating culture with race. Being white isn't a culture any more than being Asian, AA, or Latina. A girl of hatian descent will be culturally different than one who grew up in Ethiopa.

Generalizing about someone based on their cultural background can provide info as a starting point because it has a basis. Generaling about someone based on race provides little to no information (unless you're generalizing about physical traits. I. e. Asians tend to have straight black hair).[/QUOTE]Well this is getting kind of hair-splitting and onto subjects outside of the thread, but I was explaining what I meant when I said "Asian" or "Latina". I wasn't talking about the genetic makeup of their DNA, I was talking about the fact that whenever we speak of one demographic group (Asian, Latina, AA etc) then there is about a 99% chance that part of the environment they've been participating throughout their life, via family or whatever, has exposed them to a culture that is different from the culture a typical middle class Caucasian that grew up in the US would experience.

Therefore, most of the time race can be associated with culture. Like I said I'm not going to get too deep into this, anymore than I want to get into politics in this thread. In the right place and right time if I were bored enough maybe, but not here. In the meantime we can just agree to disagree on whatever you'd like to disagree with and try to keep the thread on track. My experience with girls in the aforementioned demographics is expansive to say the least, so I speak only from vast experience. Its up to the reader to pick and choose what they want to absorb. Just know when I speak of race here I am speaking of culture interchangeably, without discussing ad nauseam what I meant in the interest of brevity.

[QUOTE=MulchMan;2574140]I had two M&Gs where nothing was mentioned beforehand. At the end of the dinner I asked if they would like to have dinner again next week. I wasn't expecting to go to the FC that evening. I was walking the first POT to her car. Before she got in the car a leaned over to give her a kiss on the cheek. She backed away and asked if was going to give her any money. I thought WTF you want money for a kiss on the cheek. I told her if she would like to come to my place we could discuss the issue further. She had this look of disgust on her face and got in her car. For the second POT we had a really nice dinner together. I knew ahead of time that she was meeting some girlfriends later that evening. Therefore, I was not expecting a visit to the FC that evening assuming she was telling the truth. At the end of our dinner I asked if she would like to get together again. She said sure and wanted to know if I was going to give her any money tonight. I told her that if she could host tonight then we could discuss her allowance. At that point she said she was disappointed that I would not give her any money and walked away from the table. Based on those two events I have leaned toward getting expectations set up front. However, I have had a few M&Gs that turned out OK without agreeing up front. One came back to the FC and never asked for money. I was amazed.[/QUOTE]I don't understand your third sentence about not expecting to go to the FC that evening. My dates are always with the expectation of ending in the FC, even if it's after extended dining / clubbing etc.

About the second girl you met -- I would not have agreed to a meeting on a night where she had preemptively discussed plans after the date. I would have told her let's both pick a night where we don't have to be somewhere afterward in case things go well. I used to do that even in civy dating although sometimes I would even be more stealthy about it, trying to figure out their work schedule or when their primary obligations fall early on and planning our first date on a night where she doesn't have to work the next day or whatever, just for the better chance of getting laid and to be sure they're free for a potential all nighter.

JL, not trying to debate or attack. Just pointing out that race is not culture. There is a big difference between the two. No need to debate it because there is nothing to debate.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;2574144]Well this is getting kind of hair-splitting and onto subjects outside of the thread, but I was explaining what I meant when I said "Asian" or "Latina". I wasn't talking about the genetic makeup of their DNA, I was talking about the fact that whenever we speak of one demographic group (Asian, Latina, AA etc) then there is about a 99% chance that part of the environment they've been participating throughout their life, via family or whatever, has exposed them to a culture that is different from the culture a typical middle class Caucasian that grew up in the US would experience.

Therefore, most of the time race can be associated with culture. Like I said I'm not going to get too deep into this, anymore than I want to get into politics in this thread. In the right place and right time if I were bored enough maybe, but not here. In the meantime we can just agree to disagree on whatever you'd like to disagree with and try to keep the thread on track. My experience with girls in the aforementioned demographics is expansive to say the least, so I speak only from vast experience. Its up to the reader to pick and choose what they want to absorb. Just know when I speak of race here I am speaking of culture interchangeably, without discussing ad nauseam what I meant in the interest of brevity.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=MulchMan;2574140]One came back to the FC and never asked for money. I was amazed.[/QUOTE]And did she ever call you again?

[QUOTE=IluvSmellyFish;2574173]JL, not trying to debate or attack. Just pointing out that race is not culture. There is a big difference between the two. No need to debate it because there is nothing to debate.[/QUOTE]I agree that race is not culture, but as I said I was summarizing Asian or Latina girls to represent those who have been exposed, at least via family or environment, to Asian or Latin culture in some way, which is the majority. I think you were reading too much into what I said, I never indicated whether I meant race or culture, I discussed behavior -- I just assumed it would be kind of obvious that culture influences behavior rather than race, so I did not spell that part out until now. When one dates enough girls in one demographic category or another, they will begin to notice clear patterns that stand out in each category (based in cultural differences to be sure) that are undeniable. Not applicable to every girl in that category, but patterns that are worth discussing nonetheless. That's all I ever originally alluded to.

[QUOTE=Telcova;2574092]Any thoughts on a POT that is looking to meet without asking for a pic?[/QUOTE]My experience suggests this is an escort ploy. Girls tend to be less into appearance than guys are, but a true SB is going to want to see what you look like. The other "type" who would do this is a desperate for money girl. A Nando 1. She might not be a hooker yet, but will do what it takes to get the dough. I had one recently. She was a spinner -7 face but cute as heck body. She was desperate for $ to get her car out of hock and came to my FC to deliver a nice lay. I advanced her a little more a few days later and she went dark. Is she a serial crook -maybe. Or was she desperate and willing to commit a little larceny to get out of trouble? I think the latter. She is no longer on any SB Board that I follow.

I have an SB who is a 20 yr old Asian spinner 7/8/6/7. Due to my lack of flexibility to shop for others I stick with her. But here's the problem. She does not respond at all -nothing -to my sexual advances. Nothing! It is weird. No moan, groan, OOh, Ahh -nothing. She is very compliant and will do anything I want to do. Why do I stay? Because she has the tightest little pussy I have ever ridden Bareback and she is a great sperm dumpster. She is very sweet and we chat about things before and after. She just says she is quiet and never shows emotion even though she "has an O " . It is the only time in my long term Mongering history, that I have not been able to get a single response out of my partner. I think a Pro would at least pretend. They can watch "When Harry met Sally" and learn how to do the O thing -right?

I know all the probabilities. I don't think she is a Pro, but could be. She could be frigid due to sex abuse as a child or other trauma -most likely. She could just not be attracted to me in any way and just can't bring herself to pretend even. Unlikely LOL. Other than dump her do you guys have any ideas about opening her up emotionally? Basically I am just enjoying the F at %k but it is more of an escort experience and no emotional involvement which as mentioned previously makes the experience more enjoyable. Would you have a discussion and ask for more effort to express her experience? Or is it just a lost cause and move on?

[QUOTE=FredMoore;2574627]I have an SB who is a 20 yr old Asian spinner 7/8/6/7. Due to my lack of flexibility to shop for others I stick with her. But here's the problem. She does not respond at all -nothing -to my sexual advances. Nothing! It is weird. No moan, groan, OOh, Ahh -nothing. She is very compliant and will do anything I want to do. Why do I stay? Because she has the tightest little pussy I have ever ridden Bareback and she is a great sperm dumpster. She is very sweet and we chat about things before and after. She just says she is quiet and never shows emotion even though she "has an O " . It is the only time in my long term Mongering history, that I have not been able to get a single response out of my partner. I think a Pro would at least pretend. They can watch "When Harry met Sally" and learn how to do the O thing -right?

I know all the probabilities. I don't think she is a Pro, but could be. She could be frigid due to sex abuse as a child or other trauma -most likely. She could just not be attracted to me in any way and just can't bring herself to pretend even. Unlikely LOL. Other than dump her do you guys have any ideas about opening her up emotionally? Basically I am just enjoying the F at %k but it is more of an escort experience and no emotional involvement which as mentioned previously makes the experience more enjoyable. Would you have a discussion and ask for more effort to express her experience? Or is it just a lost cause and move on?[/QUOTE]Probably a lost cause. Sorry.

[QUOTE=FredMoore;2574627]I have an SB who is a 20 yr old Asian spinner 7/8/6/7. Due to my lack of flexibility to shop for others I stick with her. But here's the problem. She does not respond at all -nothing -to my sexual advances. Nothing! It is weird. No moan, groan, OOh, Ahh -nothing. She is very compliant and will do anything I want to do. Why do I stay? Because she has the tightest little pussy I have ever ridden Bareback and she is a great sperm dumpster. She is very sweet and we chat about things before and after. She just says she is quiet and never shows emotion even though she "has an O " . It is the only time in my long term Mongering history, that I have not been able to get a single response out of my partner. I think a Pro would at least pretend. They can watch "When Harry met Sally" and learn how to do the O thing -right?

I know all the probabilities. I don't think she is a Pro, but could be. She could be frigid due to sex abuse as a child or other trauma -most likely. She could just not be attracted to me in any way and just can't bring herself to pretend even. Unlikely LOL. Other than dump her do you guys have any ideas about opening her up emotionally? Basically I am just enjoying the F at %k but it is more of an escort experience and no emotional involvement which as mentioned previously makes the experience more enjoyable. Would you have a discussion and ask for more effort to express her experience? Or is it just a lost cause and move on?[/QUOTE]I had a similar experience not too long ago. A beautiful young woman of 22 who was totally compliant in bed but didn't offer any audible or physical feedback other than being extremely wet when we played. She told me that she really enjoyed our time together in bed but that she just wasn't the type to show emotions as she was embarrassed to do so. For me half the fun of having sex is enjoying watching and hearing my partner get sexually charged and then climaxing. When this slender woman would come the only way I knew was feeling her pussy or ass rhythmically clench my cock and fingers. On one of our "dates" I took her out for a Las Vegas show featuring a world famous Musician who happens to be a friend of my Family. So we had great seats, went back stage after the show and ended up having a late dinner at his suite. I only mention this because the young woman seemed very happy during the whole evening and yet she was still subdued and inhibited the entire time. I realized at that point that it wasn't a bedroom personality but her complete DNA to be quiet and reserved. I wish there was a third part to my story where I brought her emotions out over time but, unfortunately, she went back to her home in Europe and promptly went dark. I know you asked for advice Fred and the only thought I have is perhaps you could take your SB to a non sexual event and see if her bedroom personality carries over to her entire life. Then it would still be up to you whether or not you wanted to work on opening her up emotionally as well as physically. In any event I wish you the best in whatever you decide to do.

[QUOTE=FredMoore;2574627]I have an SB who is a 20 yr old Asian spinner 7/8/6/7. Due to my lack of flexibility to shop for others I stick with her. But here's the problem. She does not respond at all -nothing -to my sexual advances. Nothing! It is weird. No moan, groan, OOh, Ahh -nothing. She is very compliant and will do anything I want to do. Why do I stay? Because she has the tightest little pussy I have ever ridden Bareback and she is a great sperm dumpster. She is very sweet and we chat about things before and after. She just says she is quiet and never shows emotion even though she "has an O " . It is the only time in my long term Mongering history, that I have not been able to get a single response out of my partner. I think a Pro would at least pretend. They can watch "When Harry met Sally" and learn how to do the O thing -right?

I know all the probabilities. I don't think she is a Pro, but could be. She could be frigid due to sex abuse as a child or other trauma -most likely. She could just not be attracted to me in any way and just can't bring herself to pretend even. Unlikely LOL. Other than dump her do you guys have any ideas about opening her up emotionally? Basically I am just enjoying the F at %k but it is more of an escort experience and no emotional involvement which as mentioned previously makes the experience more enjoyable. Would you have a discussion and ask for more effort to express her experience? Or is it just a lost cause and move on?[/QUOTE]Was your Asian born here, and if not, then what country? My experience has been with Chinese women since I lived there for a while and dated several while there. Chinese women socially mature later than our American women. This does extend to the bed. They simply have not had much sex, and if they do, then it is from Chinese men who typically are conservative. Most don't even like to eat pussy. It is common for, say, a 30 year old to have had maybe two partners. China, socially reminded me of our country back in the 50's or 60's without the sexual revolution of the sixties.

But if that's not the case with your girl then maybe she was raised by parents from Asia where they still hold their conservative values.

It might be just a case of teaching her to open up. Just my two cents.

[QUOTE=IluvSmellyFish;2574173]JL, not trying to debate or attack. Just pointing out that race is not culture. There is a big difference between the two. No need to debate it because there is nothing to debate.[/QUOTE]You are missing the point. DEBATE is everything and the only reason for posting. Er, unless one has a jaded view of human nature. But THAT would be a an unfair assessment and not doubt proffer a lengthy and vitriolic retort?

I'm just sayin'.

[QUOTE=Telcova;2574092]Any thoughts on a POT that is looking to meet without asking for a pic?[/QUOTE]I have an SO and this is a small town so I have never sent a pic or really even had a M&G, I use extended texting / sexting, talking to establish chemistry, which is more important to them, so if we get along that way it is straight to the fc. I am pretty confident in saying that none were pros.

[QUOTE=EasyGoingJ;2575172]I have an SO and this is a small town so I have never sent a pic or really even had a M&G, I use extended texting / sexting, talking to establish chemistry, which is more important to them, so if we get along that way it is straight to the fc. I am pretty confident in saying that none were pros.[/QUOTE]I live in the big city but use a similar approach. Many times I can skip an actual phone call, but do it just to hear their voice once. I am old school that way. But for the girls its really not needed to meet up.

[QUOTE=FredMoore;2574627] Would you have a discussion and ask for more effort to express her experience? Or is it just a lost cause and move on?[/QUOTE]I would talk to her about it but ultimately not expect anything to change (I. E. Be ready to cut her loose). I think some girls are just duds in bed, and they most likely won't change.

There is one (civy dating) girl that stands out in my mind as the worst fuck I've ever had, bar none. She was cute Asian girl (not that it's relevant to the story but because there has been discussion around ethnicity lately), educated and smart but her career had taken a hit in the economy at the time and she was going through a bad divorce. I was looking at her as possible a dating prospect at the time, so we had a couple of lunch / dinner type dates with no sex. I had talked to her about some of her marital problems that led to divorce, she said her ex-husband was unsatisfied with sex because he said he felt like he had to force himself on her (that should have been clue #1).

During our dates I wasn't getting enough sexual vibes off her so I asked her point blank if she considered herself a sexual person, and I told her because I don't recall ever getting less vibes from a woman than I was getting from her and that it was starting to bother me. Her response was basically to the tone that yes she loves sex and yes she was very attracted to me, so ok I just took her word for it. Should have been clue #2.

Eventually I got her to spend the night, and it was bar-none the worst fuck I've ever had. To this day I can't even describe why it was so bad, it's almost like she was trying to position her body to make it more difficult for me to fuck her, like resisting the whole process. I practically had to use force to confine her to a good fucking position so I could finish up and unload in her (something I rarely do but I wasn't about to try pull out and spray her, because I'd have to release my ju jitsu hold in order to do it and I was afraid she'd somehow leave the room mid-process if I did).

So later that day she sends me a note about what a good time she had. I was already done. I made two attempts to call her at times when I knew she would be unable to answer, then just sent her a note that said "look we're both busy and our schedules aren't syncing up". Blah blah just to get rid of her.

Later I ended up meeting (and banging) a girl who was a former business partner of the above mentioned girl (they knew each other well). Small world apparently. She told me that she was friends with one of that girls' former boyfriends, and he said the same thing I did (absolute worst sex he had ever encountered).

So, that makes a total of three dudes all saying the same thing. My point is that your girl's sexual behavior is what it is, it's probably not specific to her partner. The girl in the story above saw me on a chat app a couple of years later and said hello. I chatted with her briefly before she asked me out (offering to buy me dinner), mentioning her new job was going well, she'd bought a house and was free of the divorce stress etc.

I politely bowed out of the date because once was enough for me, but my point here is that the reason for her lousy sexual performance was not personal (obviously or she wouldn't have asked me out again).

So I think it won't hurt you to talk about it with her, I just don't think you'll get results from that.