"Sugarbabies" / "Arrangements" Amateurs or Not?

Girls on my A list.

1. A super hot Latina that's engaged, has a kid with and lives with her fiance.
Says she can sneak out this Saturday. Thats a big maybe.

2. My little Church Girl that went back to church.
She will come back to me one day, but who knows when.

3. My ATF who I banged 2 days ago in spite of her injuries from her motorcycle accident.
Can't really push her till she gets better.

4. My X GF/SB that I haven't fucked in a year. Supposed to see her this week.

5. My X Roomy. She is a prisoner of love and living with her new BF.

6. My Virgin. Out of town till tomorrow. This may be all over anyway.

7. My MILF who is now a Nando 1. Way too boozy and woozy for me.

So for now its back to prospecting and banging this little mexican UTR girl I met off CL a week or so ago. She is hot in most every way, but it's strictly business. Date number three looks like a for sure for tonite. I am lucky I met her during this transitional phase.

[QUOTE=FredMoore;2568482]My personal opinion -Yes- each to his own. A label is just that but it is good to know in your own mind how to process your activities. Does that make us Johns if we see 1 SB? Probably. If a girl is collecting men to pay her and is willing to have sex to do it then she is a pro by definition. The only way to avoid that definition is the existence of a relationship that is not solely dependent on a sex / money dynamic. Most SBs would not see any of us unless they were getting paid. And we would not pay them without the expectation of sex. An exception to that rule is the true IRL bar / dating site pickup. I know my SBs "like" me and many are thrilled with the sex, but I have yet had one offer to drop the allowance. I know it happens because some of you report it, but those girls see some of you as a potential IRL "catch".

For those of you who see Escorts you know the difference in mentality between a naive college girl wanting to pay for her tuition and taking a dick for the effort vs a working Pro with a Pimp, website, agency, etc. The SB college girl is just starting on that slippery slope to being a Pro. It isn't long before she sees how easy it is to bang some geeze and pocket an easy $$$ ,then another and another. Same with us guys. If I had the time and $ I would see a different SB every day ala Hollywood in his prime. I want to catch the SB at the naive stage where she hasn't acquired the hooker mentality, and actually can still respond emotionally and actually enjoy the ride.[/QUOTE]Not all college SBs are headed toward a sex career though. Not all of them are even college SBs, some of them have waitress or bartender jobs or retail jobs which pay the basic bills but they still like fucking older guys and have a fantasy about a better life with one, whether that involves a long term relationship, or just a travel partner that can take them to see things they would not otherwise be able to see.

Yes we can say the line is blurred between the two extremes, but that's really an over-simplification of the facts. The fact is that there is a spectrum, and we could say that all females fall somewhere on that spectrum. If we give the spectrum a numeric scale, we could say:

0 - a streetwalker. Fucks anyone with money.

1 - BP escort. Fucks anyone with money.

2 - UTR escort, might work only on referrals or fuck anyone with money but is careful not to advertise as such. Might attempt legal ads like SB and CL.

3 - Stripper that does a little free lancing outside the club.

4 - True sugar baby or financially dependent girlfriend. Likes dating above her wealth level and being spoiled, but does not cross the legal boundaries of prostitution or do direct pay for play.

5 - Typical wife or girlfriend.

6 - Sugar momma who is independently wealthy but spends her money fucking cubs or men who otherwise wouldn't look twice at her. Most likely donut and bagel addicted.

Everyone from a 0 to 5 has two fundamentals in common -- they have a pussy and they like money but they don't have it. 6 almost has that in common except they have money so we can filter them out of the discussion for now.

So the question is, what categorization of women should be allowed to use the SD sites, knowing that terms of service is designed explicitly for #4 on the SB side of the equation (not including sugar mommas looking for young meat but honestly I wish they would give those their own site).

Ok, so we know that #2 and #3 creep into the SD sites sometimes. But how can anyone who wants the SD sites to sustain support them becoming polluted with #0 and #1? It will only result in the wrong kind of legal attention. #0 and #1 already have perfectly good areas to conduct their business, why must they infect ours?

So, it is not really accurate to say the line is blurred. The line is crystal clear and it is defined by the law. Sugarbabying is perfectly legal and the sites allow that behavior. They do not allow breaking the law and anyone who does is endangering the hobby and the future viability of these sites.

I wonder how many people want to stand up in front of a judge and say "well your honor the way I see things the line is kind of blurred about what the law is or is not". Hint of the day -- it won't fly and it isn't an acceptable excuse. Ignorance of the law is not an acceptable crutch.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;2568820]Not all college SBs are headed toward a sex career though. Not all of them are even college SBs, some of them have waitress or bartender jobs or retail jobs which pay the basic bills but they still like fucking older guys and have a fantasy about a better life with one, whether that involves a long term relationship, or just a travel partner that can take them to see things they would not otherwise be able to see.

Yes we can say the line is blurred between the two extremes, but that's really an over-simplification of the facts. The fact is that there is a spectrum, and we could say that all females fall somewhere on that spectrum. If we give the spectrum a numeric scale, we could say:

0 - a streetwalker. Fucks anyone with money.

1 - BP escort. Fucks anyone with money.

2 - UTR escort, might work only on referrals or fuck anyone with money but is careful not to advertise as such. Might attempt legal ads like SB and CL.

3 - Stripper that does a little free lancing outside the club.

4 - True sugar baby or financially dependent girlfriend. Likes dating above her wealth level and being spoiled, but does not cross the legal boundaries of prostitution or do direct pay for play.

5 - Typical wife or girlfriend.

6 - Sugar momma who is independently wealthy but spends her money fucking cubs or men who otherwise wouldn't look twice at her. Most likely donut and bagel addicted.

Everyone from a 0 to 5 has two fundamentals in common -- they have a pussy and they like money but they don't have it. 6 almost has that in common except they have money so we can filter them out of the discussion for now.

So the question is, what categorization of women should be allowed to use the SD sites, knowing that terms of service is designed explicitly for #4 on the SB side of the equation (not including sugar mommas looking for young meat but honestly I wish they would give those their own site).

Ok, so we know that #2 and #3 creep into the SD sites sometimes. But how can anyone who wants the SD sites to sustain support them becoming polluted with #0 and #1? It will only result in the wrong kind of legal attention. #0 and #1 already have perfectly good areas to conduct their business, why must they infect ours?

So, it is not really accurate to say the line is blurred. The line is crystal clear and it is defined by the law. Sugarbabying is perfectly legal and the sites allow that behavior. They do not allow breaking the law and anyone who does is endangering the hobby and the future viability of these sites.

I wonder how many people want to stand up in front of a judge and say "well your honor the way I see things the line is kind of blurred about what the law is or is not". Hint of the day -- it won't fly and it isn't an acceptable excuse. Ignorance of the law is not an acceptable crutch.[/QUOTE]The sites themselves will never be able to eradicate the pro's from joining. The best they can do is not allow the offer of sex for money on profiles, and they're pretty good about that. So really, the only way to keep them off is to make it too much work for them. And this can only be accomplished through the men on the site. If the men insist on meet and greets before going to the FC, and don't discuss pay for play through messaging, the pro's will have to put in too much work to make it worth their while. Especially when they have to compete with the majority of women on the site who aren't professionals. All of the pro's on SA in my area do not last. I've recognized quite a few who's ads I've seen on BP, or who's phone numbers I've gotten and then googled only to see their escort ads. Most of these women are on the site consistently for a month or so before they delete their profile or stop logging on. So the best way to keep the pro's off the site? Keep the john's off the site. Or at the very least, educate the john's on proper behavior. Easier said then done of course, but if the typical monger starts seeing these sites as an alternative to BP, then the escorts will start to show up in droves.

[QUOTE=DogSun;2568834]The sites themselves will never be able to eradicate the pro's from joining. The best they can do is not allow the offer of sex for money on profiles, and they're pretty good about that. So really, the only way to keep them off is to make it too much work for them. And this can only be accomplished through the men on the site. If the men insist on meet and greets before going to the FC, and don't discuss pay for play through messaging, the pro's will have to put in too much work to make it worth their while. Especially when they have to compete with the majority of women on the site who aren't professionals. All of the pro's on SA in my area do not last. I've recognized quite a few who's ads I've seen on BP, or who's phone numbers I've gotten and then googled only to see their escort ads. Most of these women are on the site consistently for a month or so before they delete their profile or stop logging on. So the best way to keep the pro's off the site? Keep the john's off the site. Or at the very least, educate the john's on proper behavior. Easier said then done of course, but if the typical monger starts seeing these sites as an alternative to BP, then the escorts will start to show up in droves.[/QUOTE]There are lots of pros on the so called normal dating sites as well. Its an imperfect system that can't be corrected as it is not in the financial interest of the site owners to do so. SA isn't Silk Road. And the gov knows that. Very little chance they will have any FTC or CC processing problems going forward.

BP can have CC processing tomorrow if they want to go offshore. But they dont want the higher fees, 3 week hold times, and overall sketchiness of some of these outfits.

[QUOTE=DogSun;2568834]The sites themselves will never be able to eradicate the pro's from joining. The best they can do is not allow the offer of sex for money on profiles, and they're pretty good about that. So really, the only way to keep them off is to make it too much work for them. And this can only be accomplished through the men on the site. If the men insist on meet and greets before going to the FC, and don't discuss pay for play through messaging, the pro's will have to put in too much work to make it worth their while. Especially when they have to compete with the majority of women on the site who aren't professionals. All of the pro's on SA in my area do not last. I've recognized quite a few who's ads I've seen on BP, or who's phone numbers I've gotten and then googled only to see their escort ads. Most of these women are on the site consistently for a month or so before they delete their profile or stop logging on. So the best way to keep the pro's off the site? Keep the john's off the site. Or at the very least, educate the john's on proper behavior. Easier said then done of course, but if the typical monger starts seeing these sites as an alternative to BP, then the escorts will start to show up in droves.[/QUOTE]You summarized it as well as I could have.

The only other thing I would add is that when we encounter an escort trying to sneak in, sending her away with a bad vibe is probably the best way to combat it. She will eventually think "I don't have to put up with this shit hooking off BP" and go away.

[QUOTE=HollywoodGuy;2568853]There are lots of pros on the so called normal dating sites as well. Its an imperfect system that can't be corrected as it is not in the financial interest of the site owners to do so. SA isn't Silk Road. And the gov knows that. Very little chance they will have any FTC or CC processing problems going forward.

BP can have CC processing tomorrow if they want to go offshore. But they dont want the higher fees, 3 week hold times, and overall sketchiness of some of these outfits.[/QUOTE]Going offshore does not solve the problem. Allofmp3 never set foot in the US. Once bank transactions from North America are shut off, they are strangled.

I'd like to think your optimism about the impervious nature of SD sites to legal action is on track -- I truly would. It's just that it would fly totally contradictory to everything that has happened with sites that were targeted by US policy, and would contradict everything I've learned in multiple decades of relevant industry experience.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;2568864]Going offshore does not solve the problem. Allofmp3 never set foot in the US. Once bank transactions from North America are shut off, they are strangled.

I'd like to think your optimism about the impervious nature of SD sites to legal action is on track -- I truly would. It's just that it would fly totally contradictory to everything that has happened with sites that were targeted by US policy, and would contradict everything I've learned in multiple decades of relevant industry experience.[/QUOTE]Going off-shores will keep the sites from getting shut down. Just take a look at our very own usasexguide which is hosted in Argentina I believe. So the only real trouble is if they run into trouble processing credit cards, kind of like we're seeing with BP and Mastercard / Visa. But this wouldn't be a death knell for these sites if it happened. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, if there's money to be made, someone will find a way. Whether it be Paypal, or some new startup that operates overseas if need be, the sugar sites will find a way to get paid, and some company will be more than happy to help them do so. My biggest concern is the sites getting a stigma attached to them like BP. If regular girls start viewing this as prostitution, then it will severely limit the amount of quality babies to choose from.

[QUOTE=DogSun;2568874]Going off-shores will keep the sites from getting shut down. Just take a look at our very own usasexguide which is hosted in Argentina I believe. So the only real trouble is if they run into trouble processing credit cards, kind of like we're seeing with BP and Mastercard / Visa. But this wouldn't be a death knell for these sites if it happened. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, if there's money to be made, someone will find a way. Whether it be Paypal, or some new startup that operates overseas if need be, the sugar sites will find a way to get paid, and some company will be more than happy to help them do so. My biggest concern is the sites getting a stigma attached to them like BP. If regular girls start viewing this as prostitution, then it will severely limit the amount of quality babies to choose from.[/QUOTE]I covered all this in an earlier email. When I mention North American bank transactions, everything is covered including Paypal, bitcoin exchanges, etc. I've watched a lot of changes even in the last couple of years as even things like bitcoin exchanges would no longer accept transactions unless they were funded with a US bank account, even when they were based overseas.

As far as USASG, aren't they funded by ad contracts rather than individual CC transactions? That's completely different -- when just writing an individual a check and throwing it in the mail is an option, anything is possible. That will never work for website membership, however.

I will be making a brief stop in Mumbai / Bombay, India and would appreciate any info on finding a quality out call escort.

[QUOTE=PghGuy2005;2568922]I will be making a brief stop in Mumbai / Bombay, India and would appreciate any info on finding a quality out call escort.[/QUOTE]Here's your best bet:

[URL]http://internationalsexguide.info/[/URL]

If you want to find a girl only to spend time in the FC with you are you a John, a Sugar Daddy, or both?

Most SDs only blog about FC activity once the arrangement is set. I don't hear a lot about how amazing dinners are at Le Petit Rouge, the ballet, or the symphony. Or how much fun the lecture series was at the City Forum. We are in this for one reason.

But few of us want a true Pro in the Sugar Bowl-I certainly don't. There are Escort Sites that work fine for that. So if an SB has a proven association with escorting then we should report them to SA. But we should be cautious about over doing the outrage. Those who live in glass houses. Make sure there is a link from a search of cell# ,email, or picture to an escort ad or site.

[QUOTE=FredMoore;2568936]If you want to find a girl only to spend time in the FC with you are you a John, a Sugar Daddy, or both? [/QUOTE]Categorizing men is more difficult and I'm not sure even worthwhile. Part of the problem is that everyone who reads this forum probably has one thing in common: if we had our way, we would go straight to the FC every time and then get up and leave once we're finished. Do any of us prefer to stick around and cuddle and listen to her tell us about her life? Yes I'm in an LTR and I do get something out of it that is beyond sex, as do many married men. Perhaps a lot of men are so satisfied with their partner they would never even be aware of this site we are posting to. But I think it's safe to say that for anyone on an SD site who is also a posting member here, the FC is probably pretty much the end game, for the most part.

Is that true of both johns and SDs? Sure. What makes one different from the other is whether they choose escorts or choose SBs. Then we are back to focusing on what makes a girl an SB versus a pro, and a thread with a subject line like this one, asking whether SBs are amateurs or not, clearly must not have any easy answers when the subject requires 10,000+ posts to figure it out.

This is where I fall back to my previously posted spectrum scale. I'd say if someone patronizes #0 and #1 type girls, he's a john plain and simple. If he's trying to flip #4's into #1 or #2 he's still playing the role of john. If he's looking for #4 and settles for an occasional #2 intentionally or unknowingly is he forever labeled a john? Hell #3's are some of my favorites -- I love going stripper hunting. Does that make me 50% SD and 50% stripper-monger? Like I said I don't see the point in labeling anyone on the male side of the equation.

I will give men the benefit of the doubt that if they want escorts, they should be smart enough to know it's going to be a hell of a lot easier to find what they are looking for on BP.

The story with the girls is different. When escorts see the SD sites as an extension of their marketing possibilities, it's a problem. If guys start patronizing this type of girl and paying her premium SD allowance when they could get her just as easily for a hundred bucks or so off BP, be in and out of the FC, then not only are they doing themselves an injustice but they are harming the hobby for the rest of us.

[QUOTE=FredMoore;2568936]
Most SDs only blog about FC activity once the arrangement is set. I don't hear a lot about how amazing dinners are at Le Petit Rouge, the ballet, or the symphony. Or how much fun the lecture series was at the City Forum. We are in this for one reason.

But few of us want a true Pro in the Sugar Bowl-I certainly don't. There are Escort Sites that work fine for that. So if an SB has a proven association with escorting then we should report them to SA. But we should be cautious about over doing the outrage. Those who live in glass houses. Make sure there is a link from a search of cell# ,email, or picture to an escort ad or site.[/QUOTE]Keep in mind not all SDs blog. The folks that visit this thread represent only a very small portion of the SD population. This site has been around a long time, and I didn't even start reading it until a couple of years ago. A lot of people who are knee deep in pussy don't have the time to write about it or read about it.

If nothing else, pretty much everyone with a posting account on USASG (myself included) by very definition is going to be non-representative of the "true" sugar daddy -- the guy who looks only for #4's. So it's important to not begin thinking the SD world revolves around this thread. Not even close.

[QUOTE=DogSun;2568874]Going off-shores will keep the sites from getting shut down. Just take a look at our very own usasexguide which is hosted in Argentina I believe. So the only real trouble is if they run into trouble processing credit cards, kind of like we're seeing with BP and Mastercard / Visa. But this wouldn't be a death knell for these sites if it happened. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, if there's money to be made, someone will find a way. Whether it be Paypal, or some new startup that operates overseas if need be, the sugar sites will find a way to get paid, and some company will be more than happy to help them do so. My biggest concern is the sites getting a stigma attached to them like BP. If regular girls start viewing this as prostitution, then it will severely limit the amount of quality babies to choose from.[/QUOTE]Being that I work on the Internet for a living I can tell you without naming names, that the biggest names in my industry have things so convoluted and offshore that you can't even track down the owners of the companies where a lot of the people are doing the real work. And this is all due to poorly written government regulations that can easily be worked around with the right attorneys and is all perfectly legal. The end result is that the Internet labor force is continuing to move to many different foreign countries and is not coming back. And I am not talking about call centers, but highly skilled engineers. They are laughing at us. Because in the European countries they get paid the same and more than we do.

[QUOTE=FredMoore;2568936]If you want to find a girl only to spend time in the FC with you are you a John, a Sugar Daddy, or both?

Most SDs only blog about FC activity once the arrangement is set. I don't hear a lot about how amazing dinners are at Le Petit Rouge, the ballet, or the symphony. Or how much fun the lecture series was at the City Forum. We are in this for one reason.

But few of us want a true Pro in the Sugar Bowl-I certainly don't. There are Escort Sites that work fine for that. So if an SB has a proven association with escorting then we should report them to SA. But we should be cautious about over doing the outrage. Those who live in glass houses. Make sure there is a link from a search of cell# ,email, or picture to an escort ad or site.[/QUOTE]Sorry, but truly a bad idea. Site owners throw those complaints straight into the trash. I did get one person thrown off SD4M, but only because they sent me like 50 emails asking for money, were obviously offshore and I had a record of all the messaging they did. And they had been on there for 4 years harassing people. But to turn in pros is like the pot calling the kettle black.

[QUOTE=HollywoodGuy;2569053]Being that I work on the Internet for a living I can tell you without naming names, that the biggest names in my industry have things so convoluted and offshore that you can't even track down the owners of the companies where a lot of the people are doing the real work. And this is all due to poorly written government regulations that can easily be worked around with the right attorneys and is all perfectly legal. The end result is that the Internet labor force is continuing to move to many different foreign countries and is not coming back. And I am not talking about call centers, but highly skilled engineers. They are laughing at us. Because in the European countries they get paid the same and more than we do.[/QUOTE]Believe me if the US government can shut down Megaupload, which was based in Hong Kong and run by folks who never set foot on US soil, and put the owner in jail in his country of residence (New Zealand) with a constant threat of extradition to the USA for trial, you better believe that no website in any country is safe.

And they didn't do this over human trafficking. They did it over simple file sharing and copyright laws. They weren't based in the US, they just passed network traffic through our servers and its game-fucking-over for them.

In terms of credentials, I've been involved in this sort of stuff since before Americans had ever heard the word Internet. Online and the legalities that drive it have been around since we first connected computers to phone lines, long before the world wide web was created.

I'm really not trying to be a dick here but I've given numerous examples that prove the "offshore" theory is just plain wrong. Allofmp3, silkroad, megaupload. They all prove my point in one way or another.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaupload