[QUOTE=GreenCandles;6445389]What shop is this?[/QUOTE]Go to Rmaps.
Search for NB Massage.
I think technically the address is still considered in Tacoma, but it's just a little bit south of 512 right off of Pac Ave.
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[QUOTE=GreenCandles;6445389]What shop is this?[/QUOTE]Go to Rmaps.
Search for NB Massage.
I think technically the address is still considered in Tacoma, but it's just a little bit south of 512 right off of Pac Ave.
[QUOTE=AussieFury;6444514]This is why:
[URL]https://www.federalwaymirror.com/news/duo-charged-with-promoting-prostitution-at-king-county-massage-businesses/[/URL].[/QUOTE]Yep, it was bound to happen. There's another case out of Bellevue around the "apartment girls" and a couple that managed them. And of course the case from Tri-cities that's tied to Tacoma. They don't seem to be going after the customers but its just a matter of time.
Careful out there!
[QUOTE=ScotchYoke;6443816]Drove by on my way home from work about an hour ago and the "open" sign was on. Enjoy.[/QUOTE]Crazy Cici and Auntie Selina there today.
Double pass.
New shoppe at 7817 Pacific in Tacoma.
Auntie working.
Got a 100% legit vibe.
MM was closed and door locked.
Labellas has new MILF Shirley. Super white smile (rare) and looks like a fun time under that dress.
[QUOTE=ItalianSteel;6445745]Go to Rmaps.
Search for NB Massage.
I think technically the address is still considered in Tacoma, but it's just a little bit south of 512 right off of Pac Ave.[/QUOTE]Short curvy cutie there today but they were busy or I would have stayed.
It’s in Parkland.
Grannie Amy at Ella Spanaway.
Her lipstick was VERY smeared so I'm guessing BJ available. Lolol.
Tina at 2121 B Mountain Hwy E.
Cute and very handsy when I popped in to scope. Worth a visit, my gut says.
[QUOTE=AussieFury;6446972]Short curvy cutie there today but they were busy or I would have stayed.
Its in Parkland.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=AussieFury;6447022]Grannie Amy at Ella Spanaway.
Her lipstick was VERY smeared so I'm guessing BJ available. Lolol.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=AussieFury;6447027]Tina at 2121 B Mountain Hwy E.
Cute and very handsy when I popped in to scope. Worth a visit, my gut says.[/QUOTE]You are racking up the miles, my friend!
[QUOTE=ScotchYoke;6447190]You are racking up the miles, my friend![/QUOTE]Just felt like cruising LOL.
Ended my day yesterday at Enco on River Road in Puyallup. They have three Latinas and one Asian: CeeCee and Canaday are curvy Colombians. Dayana just arrived and is a hot Latina spinner with curves. I went Asian but will be back to see Dayana.
[QUOTE=Maxtron;6443850]I was going to check out LuLu in FW, but cops were swarming the lot, so I got out of there.[/QUOTE]False alarm, hobby brother. We must have both been in the area that same day. I saw the cops you're talking about. There were 3 cars in the parking lot of the strip mall south of there up closer to the highway, in front of the nail place.
Lulu's is north of there and down around back.
The cops looked like something minor was going on (robbery or vandalism because there was a whole lot of standing around) at either the hair or nail place next to the Korean dentist.
Also, FedWay LE doesn't care about massage shoppes. The cop shoppe is literally across the street from Nima.
Lulu's hasn't had any LE trouble AFAIK and I like the 2 girls I've visited so far a LOT. Nana and Lilli are both winners. I haven't tried the third girl.
I'm the first to bug out if I sniff any bacon. But those cops we saw were there to fill out paperwork, not harass the working girls.
[QUOTE=AussieFury;6448272]False alarm, hobby brother. We must have both been in the area that same day. I saw the cops you're talking about. There were 3 cars in the parking lot of the strip mall south of there up closer to the highway, in front of the nail place.
Lulu's is north of there and down around back.
The cops looked like something minor was going on (robbery or vandalism because there was a whole lot of standing around) at either the hair or nail place next to the Korean dentist.
Also, FedWay LE doesn't care about massage shoppes. The cop shoppe is literally across the street from Nima.
Lulu's hasn't had any LE trouble AFAIK and I like the 2 girls I've visited so far a LOT. Nana and Lilli are both winners. I haven't tried the third girl..[/QUOTE]When I saw them they were searching the grounds with the K-9 unit. I figured it wasn't related, but I wasn't going to hang around to find out either.
[QUOTE=AussieFury;6444514]This is why:
[URL]https://www.federalwaymirror.com/news/duo-charged-with-promoting-prostitution-at-king-county-massage-businesses/[/URL].[/QUOTE]Don't remember if I've ever said so, but I really appreciate all your info and scouting reports. Thank you very much.
[QUOTE=Maxtron;6449553]When I saw them they were searching the grounds with the K-9 unit. I figured it wasn't related, but I wasn't going to hang around to find out either.[/QUOTE]Ah, if the dogs came out it's probably drugs. Those dogs don't alert on pussy. XD.
Pretty sure she's been spoken of before. Went to go see her couple days ago out of plenty of times. This year seems like she just skips the massage and goes straight to action. I'm not complaining. She's always been CFS with me. Few visits ago condom ripped and busted some deep ropes in her. I was scared and nervous because I don't want to get no w* pregnant. Visited her again and CFS. Pulled out to cum because I didn't want to risk that shit again. Then recently, I think she's on her period. Her pussy was out of commission. She wouldn't let me touch, daty, or penetrate. Sigh of relief if she is on her period. So she asked me to fuck her in the ass. I asked her for a condom and she told me I could go bare. Little head took over after that. Nutted and begged me not to stop, then nutted again after 15 min. I understand she's a cheap lay $. 00 and I tipped her as well. However, the lack of positions (only k9), or only mish when pussy is available, kind of sucks. And her magic wand sometimes gets annoying when she loses control of it. Another thing that has made me uneasy on the last few trips is that she doesn't clean up. I mean I'm CFS'ing her but when the condom ripped and I nutted 2 x in her ass she just gave me a towel and sat on her chair looking at her phone. More than likely was my last visit.
For those who want to know her. She advertises on STG and rarely on the other board. Her verification process is email first. Then she calls you. Her ads don't have a number. She's near SH Mall. I left you all the hints to find her if you want to see her so my inbox doesn't blow up. I don't login very much.
Checked out lulus, girl said it was busy comeback in 20 didn't smell great in there and she didn't look that great either. Ended up down at Alice and wendy gave me some treatment. Where the big booty AMP?
[QUOTE=Maxtron;6449553]When I saw them they were searching the grounds with the K-9 unit. I figured it wasn't related, but I wasn't going to hang around to find out either.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=DickMountain;6450728]Pretty sure she's been spoken of before. Went to go see her couple days ago out of plenty of times. This year seems like she just skips the massage and goes straight to action. I'm not complaining. She's always been CFS with me. Few visits ago condom ripped and busted some deep ropes in her. I was scared and nervous because I don't want to get no w* pregnant. Visited her again and CFS. Pulled out to cum because I didn't want to risk that shit again. Then recently, I think she's on her period. Her pussy was out of commission. She wouldn't let me touch, daty, or penetrate. Sigh of relief if she is on her period. So she asked me to fuck her in the ass. I asked her for a condom and she told me I could go bare. Little head took over after that. Nutted and begged me not to stop, then nutted again after 15 min. I understand she's a cheap lay $. 00 and I tipped her as well. However, the lack of positions (only k9), or only mish when pussy is available, kind of sucks. And her magic wand sometimes gets annoying when she loses control of it. Another thing that has made me uneasy on the last few trips is that she doesn't clean up. I mean I'm CFS'ing her but when the condom ripped and I nutted 2 x in her ass she just gave me a towel and sat on her chair looking at her phone. More than likely was my last visit.
For those who want to know her. She advertises on STG and rarely on the other board. Her verification process is email first. Then she calls you. Her ads don't have a number. She's near SH Mall. I left you all the hints to find her if you want to see her so my inbox doesn't blow up. I don't login very much.[/QUOTE]I've seen Bella for 3 years or so. She's always very welcoming and loves to F**k but is a little rough around the edges. Don't do to her expecting a real massage though. Cheers.
Visited 99 and saw YuYu. I had a one-hour session which included a solid massage and CFS. I paid 200. In a similar situation, I might repeat.
[B]Details[/B] This was my first foray into Tacoma-area AMPs; I typically hobby further north. But I was in Kent for a shorter-than-expected appointment, and I figured I might as well try a southend parlor. Driving through Kent, I saw absolutely [I]nothing[/I] promising. Continuing west, I went to Federal Way and drove straight to 99 (near South 304th and Pacificy Highway South) with plenty of anonymous parking in the back--many other nearby businesses--and the standard doorbell entry.
YuYu opened the door slightly and ushered me inside. Wearing a sexy black dress, about 5' 4", cute body, slim, b cup or c cup breasts, nice little booty, pretty face, hair pulled up in kind of a bun / neck-length style, she could pass as mid or late 30's but I think she's older. She led me to the room, asked how long, and I said one hour and handed her 200. YuYu left with the money while I undressed. She returned, placing 140 in change on the table. Maybe I'm giving off LEO vibes, or the couple people I've seen recently are simply cautious.
Hard, medium or soft? I chose medium. YuYu administered a very good body rub, getting at a lot of knots and working over my muscles, going especially hard on the calves. Her process during the first part of the session was more therapeutic than erotic. With minimal teasing, occasional grazing of her fingertips on my balls and between my cheeks, I worried that I might not see any sexual action with her.
After about 40 minutes, her phone rang. She answered it, and I heard a male voice. Neither was speaking English but it sounded like they were repeating phrases, perhaps arguing. I was a little edgy, wondering if it were a jealous or controlling husband, boyfriend or manager. While on the phone, she continued to massage, sometimes with one hand and sometimes with two. It was easily a 5-minute call, at the end of which she apologized profusely and explained that it was her adult son traveling to California and that he ought to be old enough to take care of himself. Thus, I think she's older than 40 but doesn't look it. When the call ended, she focused all of her attention on me. Until the damn doorbell rang. She apologized again and left the room. YuYu had a conversation with a co-worker and they addressed the person at the door.
YuYu returned to the room and asked what I wanted, miming several different sexual activities. I told her that I wanted everything, and she stroked and sucked me to a semi-erect state. She almost peeled off her dress but instead hula hooped it. Respect to the monger who coined that phrase. She continued to suck me and allowed my hands to roam everywhere. I'd like to find somebody who LFK and DFK, too, but it's not YuYu, at least not with me. She kissed all over my body and allowed me to kiss all over hers, but only closed-mouth kisses and there were limits. Prior to engaging in mish, she applied the alcohol spray to my hands, and she'd already used a wipe on my penis and groin before wrapping. YuYu lay on her back and I mounted her. As I partially penetrated her, she zoomed from 0 to 60, "You so big" "Too big" (I'm not but I like to hear it) "Cum baby" "Fuck me baby" Together we talked dirty but the language barrier proved mildly distracting as her dirty talk was interspersed with phrases that are romantic, gentle and even genteel. Regardless, her obvious goal was to help me achieve orgasm.
We fucked for a while. As I got closer to ejaculating, I pulled out and slapped my penis on her belly. I reached down to remove the condom and she misinterpreted my intention. I said no, I'm not going in bare. I want to cum on your belly. She responded affirmatively, placing a towel on her tummy--it's a disappointment if I can't COB but not a boner killer--and she reached down to massage my balls as I jerked myself. Her expertise was obvious and she seemed to know exactly the right places and right amount of pressure. I released onto the towel and she continued to hold and very gently massage my testicles. I raised myself onto my knees, she put aside the towel, and then she did a hip bridge presenting her shaved pussy close to my face for inspection. YuYu wriggled her butt and vagina in the air: if I were a MSOG guy, this would have been sufficient to rev me up again. I'm usually not; after ejaculating I'm ready to get on with the rest of my day. She brought two warm, wet towels and we cleaned ourselves. The session lasted over an hour, and that felt appropriate to me given the interrruptions.
During our time together, we encountered several language barriers. At one point, she pulled up the translation app on her phone so that we could communicate better. YuYu told me that she is preparing to go part-time, and she asked for my phone number but I declined. If I were in the neighborhood again, I'd likely repeat. Buuut there are a couple other places in Federal Way that I've read good things about, too.
Hey guys, I'm flying into Tacoma tomorrow morning. This will be my first time. Is there anywhere I can go that has a selection of Latinas? I see further down in this thread someone said "enco" has 3 Latinas? Can someone please let me know where or what "enco" is?
[QUOTE=Champ2014;6455631]Hey guys, I'm flying into Tacoma tomorrow morning. This will be my first time. Is there anywhere I can go that has a selection of Latinas? I see further down in this thread someone said "enco" has 3 Latinas? Can someone please let me know where or what "enco" is?[/QUOTE]Yes, Enco has Latinas. It's off of River Road in Puyallup.
Hey, staying at a hotel in downtown Tacoma. Was hoping some fellow monger could point me in the direction of an AMP in downtown Tacoma or near by Commerce street and S 13th st. Looking for younger spinner types AMP. Please and thank you!
I'm very happy with Nana and Lilly at Lulu FedWay. So I was surprised when I showed up and met girl #3: Amy.
Young, pretty, fit, good massage, limited English, all natural amazing body. Body reminded me of Yoyo. She has superstar potential and I will be seeing her a lot. All the things I like she does very very well. Super sweet and friendly too.
Usually in a 3-girl shoppe, you're lucky to get one hottie. I dunno how long it will last, but I legit like all three currently in the line-up.
There was a green construction dumpster in the parking lot so I parked in the next lot over. I guess the bldg owner is doing some work on the roof.
I've never had 3 girls at once but this current lineup may be my shot. Lolol.
Pro tip for the dude in the vehicle today with the name, logo, and phone number of your Christian ministry on the doors.
Maybe don't drive that thing to a known FS AMP like Nima. Google found your website in seconds. This must be part of what your website describes as reaching out to at-risk members of the community.
Don't worry. I won't tell Jesus that you were there. Not like he'd care. He hung out with lots of hookers and some historians believe he may have even married one.
It makes a big difference (for me) when they have some basic English skills.
[QUOTE=AussieFury;6458095]I'm very happy with Nana and Lilly at Lulu FedWay. So I was surprised when I showed up and met girl #3: Amy.
Young, pretty, fit, good massage, limited English, all natural amazing body. Body reminded me of Yoyo. She has superstar potential and I will be seeing her a lot. All the things I like she does very very well. Super sweet and friendly too.[/QUOTE]
Not sure if this is old news already or what, but I didn't see anything posted beyond random speculation.
M&M was closed by the city of Tacoma for operating without a license. Apparently the license that was hung on the wall in there was a duplicate of a license issued to another business. The owners (or whoever happened to be there at the time) could not provide the city inspectors with valid identification or a valid business license.
The inspection came about because someone in the neighborhood reported the location via the TacomaFIRST 311 app.
[QUOTE=Original703;6455500]Visited 99 and saw ...[/QUOTE]I heard in February they were setting up a new shower area. Does anyone have any updates on that? Can PM if you don't want to post here.
P.
[QUOTE=AussieFury;6458386]Pro tip for the dude in the vehicle today with the name, logo, and phone number of your Christian ministry on the doors.
Maybe don't drive that thing to a known FS AMP like Nima. Google found your website in seconds. This must be part of what your website describes as reaching out to at-risk members of the community.
Don't worry. I won't tell Jesus that you were there. Not like he'd care. He hung out with lots of hookers and some historians believe he may have even married one.[/QUOTE]That's some really white knight / captain save-a-ho shit right there. We must save the virtuous women from the evil men and prostitution. That's a very sexist viewpoint.
[URL]https://www.vice.com/en/article/xd5jnk/the-all-american-fantasy-of-saving-sex-workers-from-themselves-210[/URL]
Save the hoes, but fuck the homeless and the druggies; they deserve it.
[QUOTE=CrysisAverted;6458919]Not sure if this is old news already or what, but I didn't see anything posted beyond random speculation.
M&M was closed by the city of Tacoma for operating without a license. Apparently the license that was hung on the wall in there was a duplicate of a license issued to another business. The owners (or whoever happened to be there at the time) could not provide the city inspectors with valid identification or a valid business license.
The inspection came about because someone in the neighborhood reported the location via the TacomaFIRST 311 app.[/QUOTE]Awwww man, that SUCKS! I hope she'll be able to reopen. I'll bet that's why there are so many other closures too. The one up the street from there, No 1, is supposedly closed for the same reason.
I HATE the "morality police. ".
[QUOTE=AussieFury;6448167]Just felt like cruising LOL.
Ended my day yesterday at Enco on River Road in Puyallup. They have three Latinas and one Asian: CeeCee and Canaday are curvy Colombians. Dayana just arrived and is a hot Latina spinner with curves. I went Asian but will be back to see Dayana.[/QUOTE]Is it the same $$ up front for all in?
Can anyone give me details on this spa?
[QUOTE=XKiller;6459897]Can anyone give me details on this spa?[/QUOTE]Multiple mentions of them on the last 3 pages.
TL; dr: 3 girls, Lilly, Nana, Amy. All awesome.
[QUOTE=Becazzo;6459611]Is it the same $$ up front for all in?[/QUOTE]Yep.
Adding this because need 10 chars.
[QUOTE=AussieFury;6459957]Multiple mentions of them on the last 3 pages.
TL; dr: 3 girls, Lilly, Nana, Amy. All awesome.[/QUOTE]TL? Dr?
I guess I need to add for the ten characters. 😂
[QUOTE=CJH1956;6460027]TL? Dr?
I guess I need to add for the ten characters. 😂129315;.[/QUOTE]= too long didn't read.
For the folks who don't want to spend the time reading the fucking forum.
There are a number of places in FedWay I tend to avoid because they don't have any consistent track record of quality providers or service. I could be missing out, so I's appreciate any semi-recent feedback about any of these places.
I'm using the names as they appear on RM.
QQ: Had an HJ ending there once and would love to believe there's more.
Healthy: I used to see Eva years ago for HJ only but she's aged out for me now.
Golden Foot: Known FS, but small, cramped, and not very clean. Got to give them credit for introducing me to Sarah, but since she left I haven't been back.
Sunrise Spa: Never been. Heard only old ladies. Would love to be wrong.
Spring: Stuck my head in here once when they opened and got a vibe that FS was not an option.
Relax: Think I popped in once and saw grannies only.
Four Seasons: Popped in a couple times but never had the sense I should stay. Very curious about experiences here.
Lavender: Seen cuties there but haven't stayed.
River: Known FS and have had some good visits. But so much pressure to pick a girl in the lobby. It's too aggressive and I now avoid them unless I'm going to see someone specific.
Ivy: Never got anything but legit vibe from aunties.
Xiu Li: FS reported but I've never seen anyone attractive here.
Ocean (not Ocean 3): Originally met Lulu here (she now runs Lulu Spa) but she's the only winner I've had here. Older and uglier and aggressive seem to be the norm.
Hong Kong: Are they still even open?
Peony: Dropped by but have never stayed. Always old.
Orchid: Heard HJ only. Very curious about this place.
Lillies: Never been.
Sunshine: Heard FS is avail from an auntie.
LH: Never been.
Sakura: Never been.
US Happy Foot: Never been.
Asian Oil: Always grannies.
Panda: Never been.
Thailand Massage: Seems to be same group as Asian Oil. Always grannies.
Thanks for any intel you have on these places. PMs welcome if you don't want to blow up your spot publicly.
[QUOTE=AussieFury;6460376]There are a number of places in FedWay I tend to avoid because they don't have any consistent track record of quality providers or service. I could be missing out, so I's appreciate any semi-recent feedback about any of these places.
I'm using the names as they appear on RM.
Four Seasons: Popped in a couple times but never had the sense I should stay. Very curious about experiences here.
Lavender: Seen cuties there but haven't stayed.
River: Known FS and have had some good visits. But so much pressure to pick a girl in the lobby. It's too aggressive and I now avoid them unless I'm going to see someone specific.
[/QUOTE]Four Seasons: Usually busy (due to to discrete parking?) Much better than average massage, girls are decent looking. Non-FS but all other options may be available (YMMV). Think 99 before they changed ownership. It's my go-to if I want a non-FS good rubdown in Federal Way.
Lavender: New ownership? Now called Daffodil and is FS. Thin walls, so you can hear the action going on if other mongers are there. Like Nima, it's mostly Aunties, but every once in a while, a hottie shows up. I have had good experiences here. Worth a look.
River: My best AMP experience last year was here. Like you said, this reminds me of the time I was aggressively grabbed by a couple of Aunties by the arm as they literally tried to drag me to the room. I told them I wasn't interested. When I turned around to walk out the door, they yelled something in Chinese and this 10/10 young (25-30 year old) big-boobed petite hottie came strolling towards me from the hallway. Needless to say, I quickly turned around and had an absolutely incredible time -- she loved sex and was really into making sure I had a great visit. Other girls here have asked me out for dinner, and even wanted to date on my initial visit with them. The key here is to ask to see the lineup. And be ready to walk. Don't expect a good massage here -- ever. I prefer River over Ocean 3.
[QUOTE=ItalianSteel;6460452]Four Seasons: Usually busy (due to to discrete parking?) Much better than average massage, girls are decent looking. Non-FS but all other options may be available (YMMV). Think 99 before they changed ownership. It's my go-to if I want a non-FS good rubdown in Federal Way.
Lavender: New ownership? Now called Daffodil and is FS. Thin walls, so you can hear the action going on if other mongers are there. Like Nima, it's mostly Aunties, but every once in a while, a hottie shows up. I have had good experiences here. Worth a look.
River: My best AMP experience last year was here. Like you said, this reminds me of the time I was aggressively grabbed by a couple of Aunties by the arm as they literally tried to drag me to the room. I told them I wasn't interested. When I turned around to walk out the door, they yelled something in Chinese and this 10/10 young (25-30 year old) big-boobed petite hottie came strolling towards me from the hallway. Needless to say, I quickly turned around and had an absolutely incredible time -- she loved sex and was really into making sure I had a great visit. Other girls here have asked me out for dinner, and even wanted to date on my initial visit with them. The key here is to ask to see the lineup. And be ready to walk. Don't expect a good massage here -- ever. I prefer River over Ocean 3.[/QUOTE]Quality intel. Thank you.
I've had that same experience with the "wait wait we'll show you the hottie" bit at River. She was hot, but neglected to inform me she was on her period. I was pissed. Settled for a CBJ but was not thrilled.
FS is available. Don't judge the talent by who greets you at the door. She typically hands you off to someone else.
[QUOTE=AussieFury;6460376]There are a number of places in FedWay I tend to avoid because they don't have any consistent track record of quality providers or service. I could be missing out, so I's appreciate any semi-recent feedback about any of these places.
I'm using the names as they appear on RM.
QQ: Had an HJ ending there once and would love to believe there's more.
Healthy: I used to see Eva years ago for HJ only but she's aged out for me now.
Golden Foot: Known FS, but small, cramped, and not very clean. Got to give them credit for introducing me to Sarah, but since she left I haven't been back.
Sunrise Spa: Never been. Heard only old ladies. Would love to be wrong.
Spring: Stuck my head in here once when they opened and got a vibe that FS was not an option.
Relax: Think I popped in once and saw grannies only.
Four Seasons: Popped in a couple times but never had the sense I should stay. Very curious about experiences here.
Lavender: Seen cuties there but haven't stayed.
River: Known FS and have had some good visits. But so much pressure to pick a girl in the lobby. It's too aggressive and I now avoid them unless I'm going to see someone specific.
Ivy: Never got anything but legit vibe from aunties.
Xiu Li: FS reported but I've never seen anyone attractive here.
Ocean (not Ocean 3): Originally met Lulu here (she now runs Lulu Spa) but she's the only winner I've had here. Older and uglier and aggressive seem to be the norm.
Hong Kong: Are they still even open?
Peony: Dropped by but have never stayed. Always old.
Orchid: Heard HJ only. Very curious about this place.
Lillies: Never been.
Sunshine: Heard FS is avail from an auntie.
LH: Never been.
Sakura: Never been.
US Happy Foot: Never been.
Asian Oil: Always grannies.
Panda: Never been.
Thailand Massage: Seems to be same group as Asian Oil. Always grannies.
Thanks for any intel you have on these places. PMs welcome if you don't want to blow up your spot publicly.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Moose21;6460640]FS is available. Don't judge the talent by who greets you at the door. She typically hands you off to someone else.[/QUOTE]Great info. Thanks. Any way to see the talent there before committing to stay or does mamasan collect the house fee first?
Been out of the fed / Tacoma scene for awhile, anywhere that has younger providers on a reliable basis?
I'm younger myself, so I'm not trying to see any aunties or grannies (literally all there is up north), Emma back at Pinee was magical, anyplace Rn that could fulfill this need?